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#26 Grover

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Posted 2007-03-14 09:34:35

many thanks for your input, jeabsun! its appreciated.

#27 mangkorn

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Posted 2007-03-31 19:10:05

annon and meadish sweetbal...

I would like to explain about "??????". It means that the worker was shoot dead. However, the writer used ?????? even though the worker was not dead. It is totally wrong. However, the writer intented to write it that way for exaggerating the story. Thairath often does this. I , and many other Thais, feel that Thairath is not a good source of information because they always exaggerate the headline or even the details inside. If you read Thairath more often, you will learn that the writer know about the story very well (too much details) just like that the writer was at the scene. However, we know that some bad writers just make it up based on just some information they got. They put their opinions or their guess about the story in their writing. There is a phrase in Thai to describe this action as "??????????????????".


Khun Jeabsun:

Fantastic! Could you please translate that? I read it literally as "sit on a candle and write the news" or "stick a candle up your butt and just invent the news."

But I'm probably missing something.

This is a vital idiom for me to know, as I'm a journalist, and I could probably use it several times a day.

Cheers.

#28 meadish_sweetball

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Posted 2007-03-31 19:25:06

I think it is much more akin to 'burning the midnight oil' - i.e. they compose headlines late at night, by candlelight (implying insufficient lighting, a metaphor for unclarity) - implying mistakes easily slip in.

Sayings and idioms often deviate from formal grammar - much like the shorthand of newspaper headlines. Hence the lack of preposition between นั่ง and เทียน. Note also the proximity rhyme between เทียน and เขียน - very commonly used in traditional Thai poetry and song lyrics.

#29 mangkorn

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Posted 2007-03-31 21:09:47

I think it is much more akin to 'burning the midnight oil' - i.e. they compose headlines late at night, by candlelight (implying insufficient lighting, a metaphor for unclarity) - implying mistakes easily slip in.

Sayings and idioms often deviate from formal grammar - much like the shorthand of newspaper headlines. Hence the lack of preposition between ???? and ?????. Note also the proximity rhyme between ????? and ????? - very commonly used in traditional Thai poetry and song lyrics.



Aw, Meadish, you're no fun.

But I must admit that your translation is probably correct.

I have only recently discovered the rhyming scheme to which you allude, and so am finally beginning to see how that works.

Thanks much.

#30 yoot

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Posted 2007-04-01 00:00:05

I think it is much more akin to 'burning the midnight oil' - i.e. they compose headlines late at night, by candlelight (implying insufficient lighting, a metaphor for unclarity) - implying mistakes easily slip in.

Sayings and idioms often deviate from formal grammar - much like the shorthand of newspaper headlines. Hence the lack of preposition between นั่ง and เทียน. Note also the proximity rhyme between เทียน and เขียน - very commonly used in traditional Thai poetry and song lyrics.


Well, Khun Meadish, that is not correct.

นั่งเทียน means to sit staring at a the candle-fire. It's used when someone who claim that they can see the future or whatever which had happened in the past or future by watching through the water in the alms-bowl of a monk which has candles lighten and put them around the alms-bowl. When it's used with journalists, นั่งเทียนเขียนข่าว means that journalist had made up a story by without knowing the true story.

#31 mangkorn

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Posted 2007-04-01 00:55:35

I think it is much more akin to 'burning the midnight oil' - i.e. they compose headlines late at night, by candlelight (implying insufficient lighting, a metaphor for unclarity) - implying mistakes easily slip in.

Sayings and idioms often deviate from formal grammar - much like the shorthand of newspaper headlines. Hence the lack of preposition between ???? and ?????. Note also the proximity rhyme between ????? and ????? - very commonly used in traditional Thai poetry and song lyrics.


Well, Khun Meadish, that is not correct.

????????? means to sit staring at a the candle-fire. It's used when someone who claim that they can see the future or whatever which had happened in the past or future by watching through the water in the alms-bowl of a monk which has candles lighten and put them around the alms-bowl. When it's used with journalists, ?????????????????? means that journalist had made up a story by without knowing the true story.



Wow, thanks Khun Yoot.

So important to have someone who can fill in the context when needed.

Actually, I had thought that Meadish's supposition was pretty good, in that sense of the image of journos working on a late deadline but lacking the real facts, and then just making it up, rather than holding the story until they could find out what the real facts are.

But now that you've explained the meaning of the compound word, it makes even more sense.

I'm indebted to you both for steering me away from the tendency to look for a direct word-by-word translation - which is nearly always foolhardy.

In any event, I can add one bit of context to all of this from my own area of expertise in the profession: when bad journalists invent stories (whether it be from the deadline pressure, as suggested by Meadish; or simply divining it, as Yoot says; or just being lazy and incompetent), we say "he never lets the facts get in the way of a good story."

Cheers.

#32 meadish_sweetball

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Posted 2007-04-01 11:55:21

I think it is much more akin to 'burning the midnight oil' - i.e. they compose headlines late at night, by candlelight (implying insufficient lighting, a metaphor for unclarity) - implying mistakes easily slip in.

Sayings and idioms often deviate from formal grammar - much like the shorthand of newspaper headlines. Hence the lack of preposition between นั่ง and เทียน. Note also the proximity rhyme between เทียน and เขียน - very commonly used in traditional Thai poetry and song lyrics.


Well, Khun Meadish, that is not correct.

นั่งเทียน means to sit staring at a the candle-fire. It's used when someone who claim that they can see the future or whatever which had happened in the past or future by watching through the water in the alms-bowl of a monk which has candles lighten and put them around the alms-bowl. When it's used with journalists, นั่งเทียนเขียนข่าว means that journalist had made up a story by without knowing the true story.


I see - that makes sense now that you explain it. You learn something new every day. Thank you for the correction. :o

#33 bannork

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Posted 2007-04-02 14:17:27

It's good to see that Yoot is keeping a friendly and informative eye on the forum.
Here's one I saw yesterday in the paper, it's not a headline and I guess the origin is Chinese. Does it mean something like familiar with so don't want to punish?
ฃูเอี๋ย the sentence was มีพฤติการรณ์ประนีประนอม ฃูเอียต่ออำนาจเก่า

#34 yoot

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Posted 2007-04-02 23:40:06

It's good to see that Yoot is keeping a friendly and informative eye on the forum.
Here's one I saw yesterday in the paper, it's not a headline and I guess the origin is Chinese. Does it mean something like familiar with so don't want to punish?
ฃูเอี๋ย the sentence was มีพฤติการรณ์ประนีประนอม ฃูเอียต่ออำนาจเก่า


ซูเอี๋ย is from Teochew dialect , it's used as a loan word which means the same as สมยอม in Thai. To translate the meaning to English, it should be to connive or to agree with one another.

For the sentence on the news, it means to have a compromise behavior and agree with the old power( Thaksin's government). Well, it might not completely correct since I don't know the whole context. But hope this helps. :o

#35 DavidHouston

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Posted 2007-06-23 20:14:40

It's good to see that Yoot is keeping a friendly and informative eye on the forum.
Here's one I saw yesterday in the paper, it's not a headline and I guess the origin is Chinese. Does it mean something like familiar with so don't want to punish?
ฃูเอี๋ย the sentence was มีพฤติการรณ์ประนีประนอม ฃูเอียต่ออำนาจเก่า


ซูเอี๋ย is from Teochew dialect , it's used as a loan word which means the same as สมยอม in Thai. To translate the meaning to English, it should be to connive or to agree with one another.

For the sentence on the news, it means to have a compromise behavior and agree with the old power( Thaksin's government). Well, it might not completely correct since I don't know the whole context. But hope this helps. :o


_____________________________________

The following is from this weekend's Matichon Weekend:

"ในทางกลับกัน แม้จะเล่น "บทบู๊" แต่ดูเหมือนสถานการณ์ร้อนทางการเมืองจะลดอุณหภูมิลงอย่างน่าอัศจรรย์ ทั้งที่หลายคนคาดการณ์กันไว้ถึงขนาดต้องมีเลือดตกยางออกกันบ้าง"

Can anyone tell me what the meaning of 'เล่น "บทบู๊" ' is? Lexitron has บู๊ as:

บู๊ as "to fight"
Def. ชอบต่อสู้โดยใช้กำลัง.
Sample:เธอบู๊ได้กับทุกคนไม่เคยเกรงกลัวหน้าไหนอยู่แล้ว

A second definition is:

บู๊ [N] military
Syn. ฝ่ายบู๊
Def. ขุนนางฝ่ายทหารของจีน.
Sample:เขาเป็นฝ่ายบู๊มือสำคัญของฮ่องเต้องค์นี้

Thanks.

#36 yoot

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Posted 2007-06-25 23:10:55

Can anyone tell me what the meaning of 'เล่น "บทบู๊" ' is?


It means " playing the role of using force or fighting "

#37 jomtienbob

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Posted 2007-09-04 22:15:35

I have used http://www.thai-language.com quite a bit but I still haven't found a decent Eng to Thai translator that does whole paragraphs. I suppose http://lexitron.nectec.or.th was the only one that even tried, but they canned it after a while. Oh well.

#38 DavidHouston

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Posted 2007-09-08 09:41:11

What's the meaning of the following portion of a headline in Matichon today:

แฉข่าวแค่โยนหินถามทาง

Edited by DavidHouston, 2007-09-08 09:41:46.


#39 meadish_sweetball

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Posted 2007-09-08 10:56:02

ยอมรับ " ไมได้ เป็น ผบ.ทบ. " " มนตรี " เปิดใจ ! แฉข่าวแค่โยนหินถามทาง

is the full headline... and like you David, I don't have a clue. แฉ ข่าว means 'to reveal', but as for โยน หิน ถาม ทาง I don't know.

#40 taxexile

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Posted 2007-09-08 11:42:57

i think it means , "testing the waters" , "seeing how the land lies".

throwing stones to see if the road is solid enough to walk down , if the puddles are deep , clearing the way of snakes etc.

montri is releasing a teaser, and will decide on future actions depending on the response.

#41 DavidHouston

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Posted 2007-09-08 11:50:20

Excellent, thank you. Seems to me that "โยนหินถามทาง", [lit.] "throwing a rock to inquire about the path" is more appropriate in Meatish's world where you might find yourself walking across a frozen pond wondering if the ice ahead is strong enough to hold you up. I wonder where the phrase came from in the Thai world: quicksand and swamps, pitfalls and animal traps, bamboo and rope bridges across gorges?

Thanks for the help.

#42 CSS

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Posted 2007-09-08 12:03:39

ยอมรับ " ไมได้ เป็น ผบ.ทบ. " " มนตรี " เปิดใจ ! แฉข่าวแค่โยนหินถามทาง

is the full headline... and like you David, I don't have a clue. แฉ ข่าว means 'to reveal', but as for โยน หิน ถาม ทาง I don't know.


I don't know it either. But it seemed interesting so I put โยนหินถามทาง into google and it returned thousands of hits. From looking through them my feeling is that it is something like "testing out the waters" and letting chance lead the way. I guess it would mean something like "tossing stones to find the way." It seemed to be used in politics more than any other area both in terms of "should I run or shouldn't I" so that do something to get a feel for the climate or it seemed to me like sometimes a poster on a forum would title his post with that as if to say that he is soliciting responses to find an answer/direction. Something like, tossing an idea out to see what others think.

#43 CSS

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Posted 2007-09-08 12:06:52

ยอมรับ " ไมได้ เป็น ผบ.ทบ. " " มนตรี " เปิดใจ ! แฉข่าวแค่โยนหินถามทาง

is the full headline... and like you David, I don't have a clue. แฉ ข่าว means 'to reveal', but as for โยน หิน ถาม ทาง I don't know.


I don't know it either. But it seemed interesting so I put โยนหินถามทาง into google and it returned thousands of hits. From looking through them my feeling is that it is something like "testing out the waters" and letting chance lead the way. I guess it would mean something like "tossing stones to find the way." It seemed to be used in politics more than any other area both in terms of "should I run or shouldn't I" so that do something to get a feel for the climate or it seemed to me like sometimes a poster on a forum would title his post with that as if to say that he is soliciting responses to find an answer/direction. Something like, tossing an idea out to see what others think.


seems I was beaten to the punch. I'll defer to taxexile.

#44 taxexile

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Posted 2007-09-08 12:09:17

no need to defer , css , we are all (well at least i am) โยนหินถามทาง on the language forum !

#45 CSS

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Posted 2007-09-08 12:12:19

Excellent, thank you. Seems to me that "โยนหินถามทาง", [lit.] "throwing a rock to inquire about the path" is more appropriate in Meatish's world where you might find yourself walking across a frozen pond wondering if the ice ahead is strong enough to hold you up. I wonder where the phrase came from in the Thai world: quicksand and swamps, pitfalls and animal traps, bamboo and rope bridges across gorges?

Thanks for the help.


Someone I just spoke with inferred that it has an element of chance involved in terms of choosing the direction. I wonder if the stone tossing idea comes from tossing stones to see which way they point rather than tossing stones to test the safety of the path? Kind of like heads I go this way, tails that way. I feel like this may fit better too as I get the feel that it is tossing stones to select between paths rather than determining whether the path in front is safe.

#46 CSS

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Posted 2007-09-08 12:13:49

no need to defer , css , we are all (well at least i am) โยนหินถามทาง on the language forum !


exactly :o

#47 DavidHouston

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Posted 2007-09-08 12:34:33

Excellent, thank you all.

Seems to me that "โยนหินถามทาง": [lit.] "throwing a rock to inquire about the path" is more appropriate in Meatish's world where you might find yourself walking across a frozen pond wondering if the ice ahead is strong enough to hold you up. I wonder where the phrase came from in the Thai world: quicksand and swamps, pitfalls and animal traps, bamboo and rope bridges across gorges?

Thanks for the help.

Edited by DavidHouston, 2007-09-08 12:36:20.


#48 DavidHouston

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Posted 2007-09-08 14:24:54

One more question from today's Matichon, please if I may:

This article discusses the potential for abuse from political self dealing for members of the interim government. Toward the end of the article the author says,

"
คำอธิบายของผู้ที่เกี่ยวข้องใน ส.ส.ร.ล้วนแต่อ้ำอึ้งไม่ชัดเจนจนสีข้างถลอกเป็นทิวแถว"

"The explanation from those involved within the Constitutional Drafting Committee is a resounding crash of silence. This is so unclear that . . . . . . " And, it is this last part that I need assistance.

The words are:

สีข้าง [N] flank; side; rib
ถลอก [ADJ] scratched; bruised
ทิวแถว [N] row; line; range

but the aggregate must mean something more.

I have seen "ท้องคัดท้องแข็ง" "[
ADV] rock with laughter; one's side splitting with laughter", which I believe has been discussed in this forum but I have not seen the quoted section. Your explanation would be very helpful. Thanks.

Edited by DavidHouston, 2007-09-08 14:25:38.


#49 CSS

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Posted 2007-09-08 15:55:20

One more question from today's Matichon, please if I may:

This article discusses the potential for abuse from political self dealing for members of the interim government. Toward the end of the article the author says,

"
คำอธิบายของผู้ที่เกี่ยวข้องใน ส.ส.ร.ล้วนแต่อ้ำอึ้งไม่ชัดเจนจนสีข้างถลอกเป็นทิวแถว"

"The explanation from those involved within the Constitutional Drafting Committee is a resounding crash of silence. This is so unclear that . . . . . . " And, it is this last part that I need assistance.

The words are:

สีข้าง [N] flank; side; rib
ถลอก [ADJ] scratched; bruised
ทิวแถว [N] row; line; range

but the aggregate must mean something more.

I have seen "ท้องคัดท้องแข็ง" "[
ADV] rock with laughter; one's side splitting with laughter", which I believe has been discussed in this forum but I have not seen the quoted section. Your explanation would be very helpful. Thanks.


I don't find any google hits for the full phrase but when breaking the phrase up into สีข้างถลอก and เป็นทิวแถว I find plenty of google hits. The latter half seems to me to be used in this case as simply denoting many/a lot of/one after another. The first part however, despite having plenty of sentences to use, I haven't been able to figure out but the best I can make out is that it is used to talk of things that are hard for others to hear or doing things that are painful. One site was talking about freedom of speech and how some people use it without regard to others/(how it hurts others?). Below is the line from that site.

เห็นด้วยค่ะว่าเสรีภาพทางคำพูด ถ้าใช้ไม่ถูกทางก็กลายเป็นคำบริภาษไร้รสนิยมได้จริงๆ แล้วคนที่ใช้ก็ชอบเอาเหตุผลเรื่องเสรีภาพมาแถซะด้วย สีข้างถลอกก็ไม่สน

I still don't think I could finish the translation though. Maybe something like, "This is so unclear that it pains (those involved) one after another." or "this is so unclear that it is a pain to everyone involved.

I'm really reaching here though. I'll be interested in the final consensus for this.

#50 DavidHouston

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Posted 2007-09-08 22:01:37

Excellent, thank you. Seems to me that "โยนหินถามทาง", [lit.] "throwing a rock to inquire about the path" is more appropriate in Meatish's world where you might find yourself walking across a frozen pond wondering if the ice ahead is strong enough to hold you up. I wonder where the phrase came from in the Thai world: quicksand and swamps, pitfalls and animal traps, bamboo and rope bridges across gorges?

Thanks for the help.


Someone I just spoke with inferred that it has an element of chance involved in terms of choosing the direction. I wonder if the stone tossing idea comes from tossing stones to see which way they point rather than tossing stones to test the safety of the path? Kind of like heads I go this way, tails that way. I feel like this may fit better too as I get the feel that it is tossing stones to select between paths rather than determining whether the path in front is safe.


Great idea. I have been unable to locate a discussion of this phrase in the source books that I have but while the meaning seems clear, the cultural meaning is not. I put up a question on dictionary.meelink.com/webboard, a Thai webboard devoted to word meanings and translations to English. This is the right place; however, it seems to be sparsely supported. I look forward to a reply from them or from anyone on this forum. These questions regarding "บ่อเกิต" of words are fascinating and help increase our cultural depth, to my mind.





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