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[corkscrew]

macb, on 2007-04-30 19:54:39, said:

Mods I wonder if you would consider pinning this Topic:

As it is prevelant to the dog owners, and not everone uses the search feature or scrolls through all the Topics

Your decision of course

An excellent idea. This guy is good.

[Nienke]

solent01, on 2007-03-06 19:22:22, said:

Started training him properly two weeks ago, up until then he was far too excitable to take it seriously, so I let him get a little older before demanding too much from him. Right now he is walking to heel quite well with a choke chain (hate that word, do we still call it choker in the UK or a check chain?), and sits when told 7 out of ten times, the other 3 times I have to ease him to sit, I have started the down command, but not progressing much with that, I always have ease him down, I am also working on Stay, but again not doing too well, but Down & Stay I have only introduced over the last few days, I think within the next 3 or 4 days I should be seeing much better results? This is my first dog, I have always had dogs in my family as a child, so I'm not new to them, just I have never had to train one before, that was always my dads department.

I am aware though that even the most well trained young dog can revert to the wild, my dads last male GSD (he has had two bitches since then, and three or for males before that) turned from being obedient to a monster at the age of 1 and a half, he was well trained, and never showed any sign of being aggressive, then one day he flipped and went in on my dad (whilst they were playing tug), not just a quick snap, he repeatedly came in to attack, my dad had to hit him 4 or 5 times with a broom to stop him (the dog only stopped after my dad fearing serious injury struck the dog over the head, which broke the broom), my dad had to have medical attention. After this he spoke to the local constabulary whether they could work him and after a visit was told "no, too aggresive, try the forces", which he did and was also told no, unfortunately the dog had to be put to sleep.

(Please don’t read this and think my father is an animal abuser, he has kept animals all his life, this is the only time I have ever seen him raise a hand to any animal, but I do think he was justified in doing so).

Hi there,

Was just reading this thread.

I don't know how the situation is now, a month later, but we are talking here about a dog in his puberties who is very clearly looking where his boundaries are within his pack. He is clearly testing the authority of his human pack members. And so far he's on the winning end: Commands need to be repeated several times before he 'obeys', he is reluctant to go in the down, he mouthes and snaps, growls and he's 'hard-headed'. All symptoms of a dog who is establishing his rank ... above you.

He's still fairly young, and isn't confident enough yet to take over and THAT'S why he will lick after the snap! This is NOT bite-inhibition in the sense that he'll know how hard to bite. A dog is extremely good in calculating (if I can describe it in this way) where to bite. A snap means that the dog bites AT you, but not yet IN you. The dog knows EXACTLY what he is doing. A snap means in dog language 'back off'.

Once the dog grows into adulthood, there might very well come the time, that he will NOT accept being turned over onto his belly (sub-missive position), put in the down (sub-missive position), being groomed (where he needs to submit to the groomer), corrected (pushed physically with a choke chain into sub-mission) or being pushed in any other way into a sub-mission.

This is most probably what happened with the 1 1/2 year old GSD as well. This dog was in the right age of feeling physically and mentally strong enough to challenge the owner. Most of the dominance-aggression occers around this age! Unless, there has been physically something very wrong with this dog, there must have been many signs before the dog 'snapped' (I'd rather would refer to that, as the dog said 'enough is enough, you don't have the right to challenge me and my position). A normal healthy dog will NOT growl, snap or bite just out of the blue.

Then, the incident with the neighbors dogs: <quote but quick as a flash he jumped up, ears down, tail planted between his legs, eyes flashing and teeth bared like some thing from the film "Alien", he first bit the Bangkaeow which gave out an almighty yelp and made off for home, then promptly bit the Spaniels as they made off after their big brother, after giving chase for about 25m Chigo stopped, shock his fur and trotted back to my side ... unquote>
Ears down, tail tucked are signs of fear. Teeth bared can be fear or confidence, that depends only the front teeth are visible or also teh premolars and molars. Nevertheless, this dog learned that by showing pure aggression other dogs will back off. This is something you really don't want your dog to learn. Why not? Because, you might very well end up with a dog that start showing aggression more often even before anything happens. It's a matter of having success or not. This time the dog had success and with it gained confidence.
Shaking the fur after the chase, does not means something like "look what it did, i won". Dogs shake their furr when they are wet or when they are stressed!

I really hope that things have changed for the better since your last post.

Nienke

[solent01]

Hi Nienke, with the 3 dogs he has contact with daily, everything is well, no aggression, just happy to play and get filthy in the mud/sand, the dogs he had to problem with have since moved to the city, as their owner has rented out his house long term, so no further contact, with everyone in our family he is well behaved, apart from with my son, who tends to wind the dog up until he bites the air towards him, regardless of me telling him not to tease the dog, or play power games with him, I am concerned about this a great deal, and always have to remind my son (and nag my wife, to remind him) that this breed of dog has a reputation for a reason, and if he carry’s on like this sooner or later the dog will go for him.

My wife and I groom him most days and check him for ticks with no bad behaviour from him (although we only do this when he is laying down and settled, we don't do this when he is in play mode), and his basic training is going well, he mostly does what I tell him to first time now without me having to reaffirm the command with my hand and lead.

However he does show aggression towards strangers (very typical of breed), no one outside our family can get near him (apart from our staff and one of the guys that delivers our water), so with this in mind I do not allow anyone to enter our home/garden until he is secured by check chain (so I can control him), when ever we take him outside the house he is secure, and people are told not to approach him, also our vet will not allow any Bangkaew in his offices without a muzzle.

This is certainly not the breed of dog you should consider as a pet (happy go lucky, being able to trust him with everybody) they demand great respect, I can see why so many Thai's are very cautious with them.

My wife and I have been in contact with the breeder we purchased him from regarding training and handling (us and our dog) via a Military school in Chiang Mai, will keep you informed regarding this, (but I would be much happier working with trainers that speak fluent English, but they know these dogs very well, as they work them).

[macb]

I am sure you have looked at all the links about your dog breed:

But here is one not aure if you seen it:

http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0oGki.D4kNGoWwB...w.net/index.htm

[solent01]

Already have macb, thanks

[macb]

However he does show aggression towards strangers (very typical of breed), no one outside our family can get near him (apart from our staff and one of the guys that delivers our water), so with this in mind I do not allow anyone to enter our home/garden until he is secured by check chain (so I can control him), when ever we take him outside the house he is secure, and people are told not to approach him, also our vet will not allow any Bangkaew in his offices without a muzzle
.




Does he show aggression at the gate before you let them in:

Putting a dog on a chain can actually teach them to be more aggressive because they become frustrated, far better to have control off the Chain.

Thats why you see aggressive when chained all the time because it makes them more defensive and frustrated.

My GSD is formidable at the gate and around the property, he knows the locals that walk past but some he likes and some he dislikes, but if some one visits I point to the lawn and he goes and lays down.

[solent01]

macb, I hope to be in the position one day that I can do the same, but right now my boy is not to that standard of training, yes you are right, he is going mad at people on the lead, but I am very cautious of his behaviour, so I like him to be under control, if he bites anybody it will cost me. I know have a Farang contact in Chiang Mai who will help us with our training, I will keep you all posted, but from what I can see it looks good, I have already received good advice from this person, and this person has a professional setup. I will be there within the next two weeks, I am sure all will be well.

[bina]

it seems to me that u are reinforcing aggressive behavior by 'checking' him and not allowing people to approach him (dont have to pet him, but should be ablte to walk past him) so even 'hard' dogs should be taught to sit quietly or look ahead and ignore bypassers... using distraction like food or a toy anytime anyone goes past and 'getting attention' from your dog; also, keeping him on a good muzzle may let u relax and give him a better message then your tense 'oh no here comes someone lets grab the dog and pull him back' type thing...

if he is muzzled u can work on diversion behavior w/o worrying about him actually biting someone... muzzling should be ok for him as there are good muzzles that allow the dog to breathe and excercise and drink water but prevent bites on people. and use the muzzle all the time in the beginning so he doesnt associate it with unpleasant things like vets but also fun things like walks... i have friends in israel with a amstaff and this is the law here, she's a sweety and has learned to run, play whatever even on the beach with her muzzle... just keep watch that unleashed dogs dont get aggressive with yours...

the diversion part is what nienke and i always talk about: u have to catch the behavior before it happens (someone starts to approach u, u offer your dog: LOOK (or whatever word u want) and toy/hotdog whatever, give it, and keep going ignore the person ) ... u have to give confidence to your dog that u are both ok... if u get prepared for aggressive behavior before it starts, then u may be cueing him into getting aggressive as he reads your reactions (grabbing collar, tying up, pulling back on check chain)....

if u dont trust your dog (i know, he's young, but u should still trust him to follow your lead, or have confidence in u as the leader, but if u feel that he feels he is the leader then he will 'take over' than u really should think again about keeping him; it is kind of tiring to always be on the alert for potential problems...

not sure if this makes sense but tried to show someone this yesterday with a very good mare, who is taking advantage of her new and inexperienced owner by acting up, so he became nervous around her and so she became nervous and created sort of a cycle of unwanted behaviors. your slight lack of confidence makes your dog want to take the lead instead since u cant 'protect and defend and control' him (a strong leader makes strong and solid soldiers, in this case; a unconfident leader makes them nervous and aggressive)...and these dogs need a strong leader (alpha pack theory) since they are very strongly territorial to begin with...

be wary of using aggressive methods to stop aggressive behavior; u want a good protective family dog, not a garage guard dog

ps. forgot, if its nienke working with u then all the better......

Edited by bina, 2007-05-29 11:51:53.

[Nienke]

bina, on 2007-05-29 11:50:00, said:

ps. forgot, if its nienke working with u then all the better......

Thank you, Bina, for this great compliment Now, I'd better do a great job, in stead of only talking (I'm very good in that).

Saw the dog yesterday, he's real handsome dog!!

Nienke

[solent01]

Thanks bina for your input, yes Nienke is working with us, and thanks Nienke, I will tell Chego that you think he is rôop lòr

We have had two sessions with Nienke now (2nd was this afternoon), and already we are seeing an improvement, but the basic problem is that my wife and I are molly coddling our dog, and not showing a strong lead (if at all) Of course once Nienke started to explain it seemed so obvious, but if you don't know you simply don't know.

I am so glad that we found Nienke (or rather Nienke found us), thanks Nienke, and thanks Thaivisa, without this forum giving all us expats a place to hangout we may never had found our trainer

Nienke, it took us three and a half hours to get home this evening, we hit a storm at Mae Teang and stayed in it until ten km from home, not fun going through the twisties See you Friday

[Nienke]

solent01, on 2007-05-30 00:10:09, said:

Nienke, it took us three and a half hours to get home this evening, we hit a storm at Mae Teang and stayed in it until ten km from home, not fun going through the twisties See you Friday

Blimey, that's no fun, 3 1/2 hrs! It didn't rain at my place untill about 8 or 8.30 (dunno exactly as I left at 7.30) Hope Friday will be better. Now it's nice and cool

Thanks for the compliment

Nienke

[solent01]

Update.......

First and foremost I would like to say that I agree with Nienke's training technique, she is very professional, yet still human, and takes no shit (Non confrontational yet assertive) from the dog (or owners) and leads by good example.

Our dog is slowly coming around to the fact that he is not high up in the pecking order, although we have a long long way to go, some days are good, and others are bad, but ultimately all days are good because we are reinforcing our control over him.

After only two weeks we can see the difference in our dogs behaviour, he still try’s it on mind you, but Nienke has advised us that this may well be the case, until he settles into a lower roll, and when we are more consistent with our handling.

If anyone in or around Chiang Mai needs help with a dog, I would strongly recommend Nienke, she has a web site, but because of forum rules I can not link directly, her web link is available from her profile page.

Edited by solent01, 2007-06-10 02:28:08.

[OneeyedJohn]

Can't find the "behaviour " thread so excuse me butting in with this question....

What is the reason for dogs to rub themselves in obnoxious smells ( usually from other dead rotten carcasses ) ?

[Nienke]

OneeyedJohn, on 2007-06-13 08:02:45, said:

Can't find the "behaviour " thread so excuse me butting in with this question....

What is the reason for dogs to rub themselves in obnoxious smells ( usually from other dead rotten carcasses ) ?

There is no scientific explanation for this behavior, so nobody is really sure why dogs love to roll themselves in poop, rotten and rotting stinky smells.

The most common believes are that it's an ancient instinct:
* a way of diguising their own senct so that prey animals will not be able to sniff their presence, and/or
* a way to tell the other pack members that they've found something very interesting.

Many dogs also can't appreciate the parfume that goes with many shampoo's and will rub themselves immediately after the bath, in order to get that (for them) disgusting smell of them. Best way to do so, for them, is to roll in something that is like parfume in their minds, but not exactly in ours.

Hope this has answered your question,

Nienke

[OneeyedJohn]

Yes thank you Nienke,

Very interesting replies and I agree that after you bathe them etc, all they wanna do is go get dirty again.

My only thought was they perhaps do it for some kind of self protection.

I've probably met more instances of smelly farangs than smelly dogs anyway.

[sinom]

Hi

New Lang Ahn has moved in with us - see avatar. He's great.!

I've started training him the basics ..... sit .......down ......... walk to heel (using Let's Go). Pup is very responsive to the training (particularly the treats and praise for success).

He's only 2.5 months old at the moment, but intend to send him to proper obedience classes after 4-5 mths. Probably the K9 school Pattaya.

The only problem at the moment is that I also have to train my wife to give the dog proper training !! I'm at work all day so she "entertains" the dog for most of the day with games / toys etc. but no training structure, as she doesn't fully understand the concept.

Can anybody recommend any god Thai language dog training book's or websites that will give her a better idea ?

woof woof .................

[Nienke]

sinom, on 2007-07-12 12:03:54, said:

Hi

New Lang Ahn has moved in with us - see avatar. He's great.!

I've started training him the basics ..... sit .......down ......... walk to heel (using Let's Go). Pup is very responsive to the training (particularly the treats and praise for success).

He's only 2.5 months old at the moment, but intend to send him to proper obedience classes after 4-5 mths. Probably the K9 school Pattaya.

The only problem at the moment is that I also have to train my wife to give the dog proper training !! I'm at work all day so she "entertains" the dog for most of the day with games / toys etc. but no training structure, as she doesn't fully understand the concept.

Can anybody recommend any god Thai language dog training book's or websites that will give her a better idea ?

woof woof .................

What a very cute little puppy he is!

I've seen, but not really read, a Thai dog training manual written by a Thai female dog instructor who runs a dog training school in Bangkok. But I'm sorry I can't help you with name of the writer, title of the book or even the address and name of the dog training school as I didn't bought the book.
I remember the book as it explains step by step how to train basic obedience in a dog friendly way. Not with the clicker as I do, but at least with lots of reward. Got the impression it was quite a nice training manual. Sorry, can't help you further.

If you plan to send your dog to a training school, I suggest to send him to a more dog friendly school. Maybe the school from lady who wrote that book.

Nienke

[sinom]

I wasn't familiar with clicker training - just googled it, sounds interesting.

Do you know if you can get the kits in Thailand - clicker plus VDO etc.

Do you solely use the clicker as a form of command or is it normal command plus clicker ?

advice welcomed

thanks

[Nienke]

sinom, on 2007-07-12 16:53:57, said:

I wasn't familiar with clicker training - just googled it, sounds interesting.

Do you know if you can get the kits in Thailand - clicker plus VDO etc.

Do you solely use the clicker as a form of command or is it normal command plus clicker ?

advice welcomed

thanks

Hi,

A clicker is a training device that one uses when teaching new behaviors together with the commands. The clicker is not used as an command but as a kind of communication device that tells the dog that what s/he's doing right at that moment (at the moment of the click) is the behavior you wanted to see. A click is ALWAYS followed by a reward for the dog that is experienced as such by the dog (and not by the owner who thinks it is a reward). A reward can be food, touch, soft word, play, depending on the dog's need and desire at that moment and under those circumstances. Food is the main reward that's used as most animals loves to work for a delicious treat. It is NOT that a dog or any other animal species is starved. (something that some traditional dog trainers still apply in there training in order to force it to work and obey due to hunger, unfortunately).

A clicker is initially a neutral sound to a dog, that needs to be introduced in order to give it a meaning. But it's mainly the owner who needs to learn how to use the clicker. Once the dog starts understanding what is required from him/her, the use of the clicker becomes less and less. And once a behavior has rooted in and a cue (command) has been attached to the particular behavior and understood by the dog, then the clicker is not needed anymore.

The nice thing with clicker training is that one focusses on the desired behavior instead on everything that is not desired. This is, of course, to the dog way much more clear (after all with the click you tell the dog that what he just did is what you wanted him to do ... come and get your reward) and way much more dog friendly, keeping the dog's trust and spirit in tact.

Clicker training or this kind of method is not only used in dog training. On the contrary, it comes from dolphin training.
Cats, parrots and other bird species, horses, even gold fish and wild life species have been trained by using this method.
It is used a lot in behavior problem modification in dogs with great results.

At my kennel/dog training school I work primarily with the clicker and I really love it.

At the moment I'm training a dog with the clicker who, without a thought, would bite whatever, people, other dogs, other animals. Now, he's slowly coming around. I already can walk past other dogs AND people without him luching at them and trying to full blown attack, in stead he pays full attention to me voluntarily .
It's so much fun to see him changing.

In Chiang Mai, where I live, I'm the only one who has clickers. I haven't heard if in Bangkok clickers are for sale, let alone books, DVD's etc. I also haven't heard of any other dog training school where they use the cliker as a training device, but that doesn't mean there isn't any in Thailand. However, if you may come across a dog training school where they use both methods, that is the clicker methods and the traditional punishment based methods, I wouldn't recommend them. Because, once one has seen and understood the benefits of the clicker method one doesn't want to go back nor use the traditional method anymore.

I hope I've been able to answer your questions. If you would like to know more on the clicker training, please, feel free to PM me.

Nienke

[bina]

nienke,
u dont need a clicker per se; u can use anything in place of it that is a specific sound or signal so no need to buy one. a bell or a particular whistle or a flashing light or whatever, since u are using it only as a marker ('good') ; even a pen click sound can be used (u know, the ball point pen click )... or the knocking sound of a collar clip (the bigger ones used for atttatching a lead to a collar)...

bina

[Nienke]

bina, on 2007-07-12 22:52:06, said:

nienke,
u dont need a clicker per se; u can use anything in place of it that is a specific sound or signal so no need to buy one. a bell or a particular whistle or a flashing light or whatever, since u are using it only as a marker ('good') ; even a pen click sound can be used (u know, the ball point pen click )... or the knocking sound of a collar clip (the bigger ones used for atttatching a lead to a collar)...

bina

So, I'm gonna try to reply again. Lost my post 2 days ago and was sooooo pissed off

Anyway ... Of course, one don't need a clicker per se. Dolphins and other mammals are trained with a flute, so far I know. And I don't think that one would come far in training a goldfish with a clicker, they use some kind of flashing light.

Some people prefer to use a tongue click, as your tongue is always close by (at least I hope so ) I've noticed by myself that I'm better in timing with a clicker than with a tongue click. A pen click should be ok, but again for some reason I'm more comfortable with a clicker than with a pen.
If I think of a bell, I think of such a clock thing with a clapper. That gives too much and too long a sound. Therefore, it's not too clear to the dog. Plus it sometimes doesn't work if the bell is not moved properly (if you understand what I mean).
With the knocking sound of a collar clip, it's difficult to time the 'click' as there is always a long piece of lead in between, and it doesn't work if your dog isn't on the lead. Or you mean you have that clip as a device in your hand, that could be possible.
A flute could be used as well, so far I know they use that in training hunting dogs. But then again, it seems to me not pratical as it's all about the timing. If you have a flute around your neck and then at the right moment need to put the flute in the mouth before you can wistle, you're too late with giving the signal. Or you need to have the flute in your mouth all the time, and then talking becomes difficult, IMO.

It's just that from my experience and the many discussions that I've followed through the years on the use of a clicker vs other devices, I really prefer to work with the clicker. It's because it's fairly easy to use, it has a very neutral, clear and specific sound, and you can time very well with the clicker, and thus easy to understand for the dog.

So, in other words, I prefer to work with the clicker .

Nienke

Edited by Nienke, 2007-07-15 09:30:05.

[bina]

right, the thing u use to attach a collar to a lead but held in your hand as a clicker; bell - well, we use a small tingling bell like an old fashioned dinner bell that goes in a pocket (it works for goats since they think of bottles of milk or food pellets or ice cream when they here the bell)... and i always felt stupid buying something that 1. gets lost constantly or misplacedc in ithe wrong pocket; b. difficult to replace where i live so actually expensive ...

tongue is good since most people do have them, they dont get lost (the same arguement against using pacifiers and using a thumb instead) break, or have to be preplaced... :))

speaking of which, my lhasa likes to use a pacifier!!!

[Nienke]

bina, on 2007-07-16 02:45:19, said:

right, the thing u use to attach a collar to a lead but held in your hand as a clicker; bell - well, we use a small tingling bell like an old fashioned dinner bell that goes in a pocket (it works for goats since they think of bottles of milk or food pellets or ice cream when they here the bell)... and i always felt stupid buying something that 1. gets lost constantly or misplacedc in ithe wrong pocket; b. difficult to replace where i live so actually expensive ...

That's classical or 'Pavlovian 'conditioning allright, but IMO it is not handy when training for certain behaviors and you need to catch a moment within 1/3 of a second that the desired behavior is shown. And that's why I prefer the clicker which has the same problems though with getting lost, wrong pocket and for those who don't have a box full of clickers at home, yep, it is also not that easy to replace here in Thailand

But again this is MY preference and from those who are way much better than I am.

Nienke

[Nickkbh]

I have a few questions.
I am having my first (own) dog soon.Had plenty whe i was a kid....
And i want her to be well behaved.
But how old should a dog be before you can start training it.
And is there something you can do already as a small pup.
She will be 2 months when i get her.

Thanks

Nicolai

[Nienke]

Nickkbh, on 2007-07-18 09:25:54, said:

I have a few questions.
I am having my first (own) dog soon.Had plenty whe i was a kid....
And i want her to be well behaved.
But how old should a dog be before you can start training it.
And is there something you can do already as a small pup.
She will be 2 months when i get her.

Thanks

Nicolai

Hi Nicolai,

Education of a dog starts as soon as it enters its new house, whether that's a young puppy or an older dog. And there is an awfull lot you can do and have to do with such a young puppy.

Actually you start already BEFORE the puppy arrives:
* make your house and garden puppy proof. A puppy only knows what's safe and dangerous through learning experience. Think similar as if it's a toddler ... swimming pool/fishpond, poisonous liquids, electrical wiring. But also, puppies chew, play and explore. Think of the laundry, shoes, paws of chairs and tables. Forget about a beautifull garden for the first year of puppies life, or fence parts of.
* set rules on what the dog is allowed to do and what not. For example, jumping up is often learned by the puppy and unconciously taught by the owner during puppyhood. If you don't mind a 40 pound dog jump up at you after having danced through the mud, then there's is no problem. But if you don't be aware that you avoid this problem from developing from the moment the pup arrives. Plus, that everybody in your household has to follow the same rules.
* and that brings me to the following point, train yourself and your family member in being consistent, as consistency is a keypoint in a dog's (and human's) education.
* gather information, books, DVD's and info from the net on how to take care and educate a pup.

Puppy arrived:
* toilet training
* socialization with all sorts of people and children, other dogs and animals, traffic, and all the different environments and circumstances the dog can possibly encounter in its life. All experience should be positive ones in the mind of the puppy.
* puppy basic obedience course in a playful but clear and consistent way and in a dog friendly manner.

Contrary to a general believe, very young puppies do learn and they learn very fast. Many of the undesired behavior has their roots in early puppyhood, where it easily could ahve been avoided or guided in desired behavior.

I'll hope this gets you started

Nienke