Prev Page 3 of 6 1 2 3 4 5 Next » This topic is locked Go to first unread post 132 replies to this topic

[Gimbo]

Crossy, on 2007-07-23 14:44:56, said:

Gimbo, on 2007-07-23 16:06:29, said:

In Europe (except brittain I think), grounding is only required in wet rooms, like the bathroom and kitchen. Two pronged plugs is the standard. Of course you are not even allowed to move into your house, before your electrical installation have been checked and deemed safe. In Thailand, it's another story...

OK, I understand the English is not your first language.

BUT

The Euro standard 'Shuko' plug is NOT a two prong plug. It may have only two pins but the third (ground) contact is made by two side connections, except in France and Belgium where a third pin is actually incorporated into the socket, this mates with a hole in the plug and effectively polarises the outlet making it non-reversible

Which Euro country are you from, the standard varies all over the place.

I am Norwegian. And no, the euro plug with the two side connectors for the grounding can also be plugged in two both ways. It simply does not matter what way you plug it in.

Edited by Gimbo, 2007-07-23 16:40:06.

[Crossy]

Gimbo, on 2007-07-23 16:39:12, said:

I am Norwegian. And no, the euro plug with the two side connectors for the grounding can also be plugged in two both ways. It simply does not matter what way you plug it in.

CORRECT. Except in Belgium and France where the same (actually nearly the same) plug is polarised, it has a ground pin actually as part of the socket, that's what the hole in the plug is for.

Anyway, who cares, we are in Thailand where the rules don't apply

[kelvinj]

What gimbo may not be taking into account is that the Norwegian power supply is different to most other nations. I worked there in the 80's installing mainframe computer equipment, their three-phase supply is a Delta system, when you take a single phase connection from this, you are connected across two phases and it really does not make any difference which way around you plug into it. Most other places generate 3-phase in the Star configuration, when you take a single phase supply from this it is connected between phase and neutral, this means that one of the pins in your two pin connector will be held close to earth potential.

[Gimbo]

kelvinj, on 2007-07-23 19:49:05, said:

What gimbo may not be taking into account is that the Norwegian power supply is different to most other nations. I worked there in the 80's installing mainframe computer equipment, their three-phase supply is a Delta system, when you take a single phase connection from this, you are connected across two phases and it really does not make any difference which way around you plug into it. Most other places generate 3-phase in the Star configuration, when you take a single phase supply from this it is connected between phase and neutral, this means that one of the pins in your two pin connector will be held close to earth potential.

Yikes, I was not aware of that. I was wondering why every socket I have seen outside my sheltered fjords where earthed. I was just figuring tighter regulations on what rooms needed earthed sockets. (in Norway regulations say only wet rooms like bath rooms and kitchens need them in a normal house).

As for thailand, there does not seem to be any standard at all. Just some patched up, we take what we have and make use it.

Anyway, I am actually planning to rewire the our house in the village, and since it's been a few years (10 years) since I was practicing, I think I have to brush up on a few things, and hire someone instead of doing it myself...lol (but I'll be right behind him, questioning every false move).

At least I'll be able to catch him when he uses telephone wires for a 50KV changeover switch or something :-)

[qualtrough]

I have found it very hard to find a qualified electrician to do work at the house. Most of the good ones are hired to do work on industrial estates and large buildings, etc. What you are left with is amateurs. It does not take much of an expert to see that the state of electrical wiring here is very often abysmal. I would be willing to pay extra to have a European/US qualified electrician supervise a local crew, and at some point I plan on doing that for my house. I know he/she will be in for quite a few surprises. Guesthouse might have his heart in the right place, but in this particular areas the locals have not shown they are up to it in many cases.

I do know something about automobiles, and while there are good mechanics here there are a lot of very poor ones. There is a Thai saying 'Farang Tum Gern' (ฝรั่งทำเกิน) which literally means 'Farang make too many'. This is in reference to all the washers, springs, and nuts left over when a job is done, i.e. the farangs use too many parts and many are not really necessary. Ha ha ha!

Edited by qualtrough, 2007-07-24 00:37:58.

[Crossy]

kelvinj, on 2007-07-23 21:19:05, said:

What gimbo may not be taking into account is that the Norwegian power supply is different to most other nations. I worked there in the 80's installing mainframe computer equipment, their three-phase supply is a Delta system, when you take a single phase connection from this, you are connected across two phases and it really does not make any difference which way around you plug into it. Most other places generate 3-phase in the Star configuration, when you take a single phase supply from this it is connected between phase and neutral, this means that one of the pins in your two pin connector will be held close to earth potential.

Ah, I was wondering if this was the case, it would explain all of gimbo's comments. I've only come across this system in one other place, The Philippines where they have the additional factor of being 220V 60Hz (I believe the only place on planet earth to use this system if you ignore the US bi-phase supply).

The delta supply is theoretically safer as, although both lines are live, they are at about .6 mains voltage above ground, additionally un-grounded computers don't bite as their chassis, floating at mid-rail, actually have something approaching zero V wrt ground. Unfortunately the requirement to have double pole breakers in the CU sort of negates the advantages.

[johnnyk]

My house has two wires coming in so I assume my electrical outlets are not safely grounded.
Is there any way I could retrofit grounding?
Junction boxes also seem to be non-existent, is it worthwhile to have someone go into the attic and install junction boxes where connections are now simpl taped together?

[Crossy]

Not necessarily, the ground is not an incoming wire, you should have a stake somewhere with a wire attached.

Have a look here for some ideas, http://www.crossy.co.uk/wiring/ you certainly can retrofit grounding

I've not seen UK style junction boxes here, they have proper MK ones in Malaysia, maybe pick some up on the next visa run

[elkangorito]

The devices used to join wires are generally called 'connectors' or 'BP connectors'. See the attached picture.

[Crossy]

elkangorito, on 2007-09-14 15:56:34, said:

The devices used to join wires are generally called 'connectors' or 'BP connectors'. See the attached picture.

bp_connectors3.JPG

Nah, we don't use those bodges

Get proper BS standard joint or junction boxes from MK. Maintain the integrity of the jacket, no exposed conductors

I'll find a photo, remember in the UK we run TPS naked under floors and in ceilings, no conduit required on domestic installations

Obviously either is 1000000 times better than the "twist the wires and tape" method.

Edited by Crossy, 2007-09-14 15:44:18.

[elkangorito]

Crossy, on 2007-09-14 15:43:14, said:

elkangorito, on 2007-09-14 15:56:34, said:

The devices used to join wires are generally called 'connectors' or 'BP connectors'. See the attached picture.

bp_connectors3.JPG

Nah, we don't use those bodges

Get proper BS standard joint or junction boxes from MK. Maintain the integrity of the jacket, no exposed conductors

I'll find a photo, remember in the UK we run TPS naked under floors and in ceilings, no conduit required on domestic installations

Obviously either is 1000000 times better than the "twist the wires and tape" method.

I beg your bloody pardon Crossy. They are not 'bodges' (bodgy in Australian).

Actually, they are only used in conjunction with an appropriate J-box, so no bare cable is exposed.

Are you saying that Australian electrical standards are crap, considering that Australia has basically adopted the IEC regs & fine tuned them to Australian requirements?

[Crossy]

elkangorito, on 2007-09-15 01:58:33, said:

Are you saying that Australian electrical standards are crap, considering that Australia has basically adopted the IEC regs & fine tuned them to Australian requirements?

555 Thought that might provoke a reaction

Of course not (as you well know mate)

Trouble is (as you also know) in our wonderful adopted country the BP's (if they get used at all) don't get the benefit of the J-Box

Edited by Crossy, 2007-09-15 05:47:42.

[paulsmithson]

yeah polarity is of concern I think ( not an electrician but am handy) especially if y0u are using a MEN link.
Thai installations are supposed to have had an earth for over two years now but not many domestic installations do.
if using a thai three pin plug then surely a fuse is incorporated(?) and should be on the live side??? Is this so?

[elkangorito]

paulsmithson, on 2007-09-15 21:26:57, said:

yeah polarity is of concern I think ( not an electrician but am handy) especially if y0u are using a MEN link.
Thai installations are supposed to have had an earth for over two years now but not many domestic installations do.
if using a thai three pin plug then surely a fuse is incorporated(?) and should be on the live side??? Is this so?

Hi Paul.

You'll find a discussion about these things through the below link;

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?sh...amp;hl=electric

[Crossy]

paulsmithson, on 2007-09-15 22:26:57, said:

yeah polarity is of concern I think ( not an electrician but am handy) especially if y0u are using a MEN link.
Thai installations are supposed to have had an earth for over two years now but not many domestic installations do.
if using a thai three pin plug then surely a fuse is incorporated(?) and should be on the live side??? Is this so?

No fused plugs here unlike the UK. Outlets are protected by a 20A MCB in the consumer unit (not UK standard 30A) and all are radial wired (no ring mains).

Have a look at the thread elkangorito pointed at and here http://www.crossy.co.uk/wiring/

[bronco]

elkangorito, on 2007-09-14 17:26:34, said:

The devices used to join wires are generally called 'connectors' or 'BP connectors'. See the attached picture.

bp_connectors3.JPG

BP came from the original manufacturer BLUE POINT, they are now and have been for a while been made by clipsal but "BP " still is the normal slang amongst us

[elkangorito]

bronco, on 2007-09-24 17:24:06, said:

elkangorito, on 2007-09-14 17:26:34, said:

The devices used to join wires are generally called 'connectors' or 'BP connectors'. See the attached picture.

bp_connectors3.JPG

BP came from the original manufacturer BLUE POINT, they are now and have been for a while been made by clipsal but "BP " still is the normal slang amongst us

I've been scratching my head about this for 20 years...now I know. Thanks bronco

[Lite Beer]

[quote name='johnnyk' date='2007-09-14 05:22:18' post='1534551']
My house has two wires coming in so I assume my electrical outlets are not safely grounded.
Is there any way I could retrofit grounding?

My House was built in April 2007. I never really thought about it but after reading the many helpful posts on here I had a closer look and my house has no Earth or Ground.
We got a proper electrician to check things out and he confirmed this. He also found the electric shower Earth wires in the roof , going nowhere.
He put a 2 meter spike in the ground , connected the showers, changed 5 double sockets (where we have 3 pin appliances) and connected them. All done in a day.
I know we live in an Isaan village and the man was a friend , but the cost of this was 2,500 Baht including materials and labour.
A small price for safety. Anyone living in a house that is not Earthed, it can be done and is not expensive.
I would like to thank Crossy . Elkangorito and every one else for all the great information on this forum.

Edited by Lite Beer, 2007-12-30 09:15:55.

[klikster]

Your last question has a built-in bias whether you intended it or not. You use the word "qualified" only relating to "foreigner". Your questions about Thai electricians are incomplete in that they do not address "qualifications" one way or another.

Do you have an agenda related to "qualified foreigners"? If so, don't you believe that you should state that agenda?

[elkangorito]

Bump!

Seeing as you (klikster) are still around, my comments in blue.

klikster, on 2007-12-30 11:13:58, said:

Your last question has a built-in bias whether you intended it or not. You use the word "qualified" only relating to "foreigner".
There is no "built in" bias...there are only facts. You see, there are no regulatory "licensing" requirements for electricians performing residential work in Thailand. This is the opposite for farang electricians who perform domestic electrical work in their own countries. As a matter of fact, Thailand does not seem to have any standards that regulate domestic electrical wiring whereas in most farang countries, standards not only exist but are also enforced.

Your questions about Thai electricians are incomplete in that they do not address "qualifications" one way or another.
I work at a Thai Vocational College. The college seems to think that it teaches people to become electricians. I think the college is wrong because;

1] there are basically 2 electrical courses - electrical power & electronics. The students who undertake electrical power do not do any wiring practice that pertains to domestic installations. They do learn a lot more theory than what is needed to become an electrician. Since there are no electrical wiring rules, the information learnt by students is subject to whatever the teacher wants to tell or not tell them.

2] upon successful completion of the electrical power course, they will be issued with a certificate, which qualifies them in the field of electrical power, a very broad subject. Learning all about things mechanical does not qualify a person to be an automotive mechanic. Learning about all things electrical does not qualify a person to be an electrician.
If I lived in Australia, I would not want an electrical engineer to tamper with my domestic electrical installation since he/she would probably know bugger all about the specifics (detail) & would not know how to twist a wire (no real practice).


Do you have an agenda related to "qualified foreigners"? If so, don't you believe that you should state that agenda?
Yes, I do. I wish to one day start an electrical business.

[longball53098]

I guess I will continue this thread with some added information that I hope will be useful.

It would seem that if you read many of the web forums here in Thailand that have threads related to the Do-It-Yourself (DIY) person these forums will have topics that relate to electricity and the questions and discussions about all the whys, what ifs and how do I stuff. Such is the case here on TV DIY section. Many folks posting every week or so with electric questions.

I for one read topic after topic related to electrical questions as I have more than a passing interest and consider myself to be more than a novice about home electrical. Although I am not a certified electrician by trade I did carry a low voltage license most of my working life in the USA and this does entail a certain degree of training and knowledge of high voltages.

There are many true experts on the forums and their knowledge is invaluable and we can get it free in most cases.

One of the more frequent discussions that pop up is related to the “way” it’s done here in Thailand. Many discussions about how a place has been wired or not wired as the case may be. The use of the proper wire/cable and if a ground is installed or not and so on and so on. How to install a consumer panel and so on.

I am in the process of building a house in the Rayong Changwat in the Banchang district. Of course we will require temporary electrics for construction and then electrics for the house when complete. I would not even begin to discuss how the construction people disregard safety when it comes to electrical use during building. I would bet if any statistics were kept that the accident rate and death rates from electrical hazards is quite high.

We all know that the regulations regarding electrical systems for the home are quite loose if non-existant, I really don’t know what the regs are if they do exist but what I do know is the Provincial Electric Authority of Thailand (PEA) does have serious guidelines that they would like to see adhered to and they try to make it quite well known to the local population.

As I mentioned we are building a house and just the other day we visited the PEA office here in Banchang to apply for the temporary power for construction. Very simple process. When we finished I happened to notice a bookshelf below a large display board. On this shelf were several booklets and pamphlets showing and describing electrical use, energy use and conservation and electrical use safety. I took note of one booklet of 42 pages that was especially informative. This book shows and describes the proper way of installing electric services in most Thai homes. From the simple home in the country village to the most modern. All pictures and diagrams are clear and no need for reading Thai if you are a foreigner. For any Thai that claims to be a “professional” electrician all of this information should be second nature and used on a daily basis. For those of us that post the myriad of questions about how to install a service panel and wire it correctly this booklet could easily serve as a guide. For those that say they cannot make the “local” electrician understand what they want them to do I would think this book would be a useful tool to “guide” the local into doing it your way.

It is very obvious to me that the PEA is trying very much to get the message out to all that there is a way to make your home more safe and reliable using the methods shown by them and for not much cost. I would have to believe they are educating folks as best they can. This book definitely goes into earthing/grounding techniques the how to and also the whys. Great stuff.



 PEA_Booklet_Cover.jpg   485.17K   23 downloads  PEA_Booklet_Pg1.jpg   594.03K   34 downloads  PEA_Booklet_Pg2.jpg   340.46K   30 downloads



I attach a scan of the cover and the first 2 pages. I would imagine that any PEA office has these same books. Next time you’re out and about if this kind of thing peaks your curiosity stop in and get one. If you understand electrical a little the pictures tell the story because the book is of course written in Thai.

Is this the solution to all your issues with the local guy? Hardly! But this may help some of you get your point across to the “electrician” your trying to persuade to do it the way you know is correct. I would say maybe a visit by them to the PEA office would help also.

[skipvice]

Thanks longball, copied and saved. I plan to have our home rewired in the next few months.

[dotcom]

elkangorito, on 2007-09-14 14:56:34, said:

The devices used to join wires are generally called 'connectors' or 'BP connectors'. See the attached picture.

bp_connectors3.JPG

What happened to your picture?

[longball53098]

This is a great topic

[dotcom]

Litebeer. I am trying to work out if you think 2500 baht for all that work & materials was "expensive"? Sorry but it's not clear.

Down here in the big city that would be considered "cheap".

Be happy knowing you have the only grounded system in the village. Are the roads paved up there?