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[PeaceBlondie]

Sorry, but I went to the links you provided, and the 18 hour prof. cert. of education courses, in orange, don't go anywhere.  Care to try again?

The financial costs section says they charge 1600 baht per credit hour.  Would 18 hours then cost 28,800, plus about 9000 baht per semester?  How many semesters does it take to earn 18 credit hours?  This is a certificate program, not a degree like a bachelor's or master's - right?

I figure that it might possibly theoretically cost perhaps maybe 40,000 baht to get the hours.  But if this is the mythical legendary imaginary fantastic '15 credit hours' thingamajiggerbobber we've all heard so little about - what is it, really actually?

Before you go committing yourself to all this time and money, you might check.  

By the way, a third tier international school is not exactly an international school. Also, there's a few things quite vague about your wording: "I like to think I'm talking about a school that is under consideration for or has been accredited by one of the intnl school accrediting bodies."

Good luck.  I don't know.  I've offered a reward for anybody who can prove they really, actually know.

Edited by PeaceBlondie, 2005-06-06 22:46:04.

[phormio]

PeaceBlondie, on 2005-06-06 22:38:33, said:

Sorry, but I went to the links you provided, and the 18 hour prof. cert. of education courses, in orange, don't go anywhere.  Care to try again?

The financial costs section says they charge 1600 baht per credit hour.  Would 18 hours then cost 28,800, plus about 9000 baht per semester?  How many semesters does it take to earn 18 credit hours?  This is a certificate program, not a degree like a bachelor's or master's - right?

I figure that it might possibly theoretically cost perhaps maybe 40,000 baht to get the hours.  But if this is the mythical legendary imaginary fantastic '15 credit hours' thingamajiggerbobber we've all heard so little about - what is it, really actually?

Before you go committing yourself to all this time and money, you might check. 

By the way, a third tier international school is not exactly an international school. Also, there's a few things quite vague about your wording: "I like to think I'm talking about a school that is under consideration for or has been accredited by one of the intnl school accrediting bodies."

Good luck.  I don't know.  I've offered a reward for anybody who can prove they really, actually know.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

In a way I did check - I talked to the Owner/Director of a international school(application pending with one of the accrediting bodies ); there are a lot of new, smaller international schools around, according to him, because the MOE (ministry of Education) changed its rules a couple of years ago - if they have a request for accredidation pending with one of the international school accrediting bodies, they could operate as an international school; before this rule change, they had to wait for accredidation before operating as an international school.
Anyway , this director, who I'll call Steve, has 25 years experience in Thailand, fluency in Thai, and a Thai Citizenship. He deals with the MOE frequently and wanted to offer me a job, though I was offerred a better job at a different school (which I had to turn down- different story in a different post) . I specifically asked him if this Mission College program was approved by the MOE - he said yes. I specifically asked him if the WASC accrediting body recognized the teachers from this progam as legitimate for international school accrediting purposes - he said yes.
I have to admit that I have not actually received this response from Mission College itself. They said that the brochure for this program would come out in late June. They said that the program was specifically created in response to the international schools need for "qualified" teachers.  They also said that they would help transfer ed credits back to colleges in the US to help with teaching certification there (this is a statewide function and varies from state to state).

Do you have the wherewithal and/or connections (you've been around the LOS for a while haven't you?) to check it out. Remember this is a new program with the first class just now graduating.

Thanks

[PeaceBlondie]

I've only been here for two years and have limited experience.  No wherewithal, no connections.  We've challenged those who have more of those things, and have heard unsubstantiated rumors, to check it out and get back with more info.  If it's the 15 or 18 credit hours thing that was batted back and forth in 2003 and 2004, nothing appears to have come of it.  

Many of us have bachelor's degrees but no academic course in educational methodology, no certification by state, province, region, or nation as 'teachers.'  The guys who are trying to increase their 30K to 35K salaries to much more, are occasionally told that the EP schools think that some Khun Somchatasapanakornakorn up in the MoE was quoted in the Thai newspaper as saying something; by the time it's translated into English, nobody knows.

In my arrogant opinion, here's a standing offer: 500 baht to the first person who finds us properly certified government regulations that clearly spell out this requirement of 15 or 18 credit hours in education, including lots of details.  I suspect the money's safe in my wallet.

[mijan24]

I searched around the net for "Mission College" I then extracted the following from an advertisement for a position at the College. I have deliberately edited some detail as the purpose of my post is to provide some info I found about the College.

http://www.nadeducat...cation.html#top
Mission College (founded in 1996) as it is today, represents a union of three proud Adventist institutions: Southeast Asia Union College, Singapore (est 1906); Bangkok Adventist Hospital School of Nursing (est 1947); and Mission College, Muak Lek campus (est 1988).

The College operates two campuses and five faculties. Its current enrollment is about 900. The College employs approximately 250 faculty and staff. Its main campus is located on 230 hectares set in the beautiful rural resort area of Muak Lek, 148 km northeast of Bangkok. It is a private institution of higher education with over 30 nationalities represented in its student body and among its faculty and staff.

The College is accredited by both the AAA (Adventist Accrediting Association of Schools, Colleges and Universities) and the Thailand Ministry of Education. The institution offers eight undergraduate degrees and two postgraduate qualifications in its international program, and three undergraduate degrees its Thai program.

The President
Southeast Asia Union Mission
798 Thomson Road
Singapore 298186


For more information, contact The President via email at rwtownend@saum.org.sg, via phone at 65-6355-2700 or at the following address:
Southeast Asia Union Mission
798 TGhomson Road
Republic of Singapore 298186

A direct site for information -

http://www.geocities...ioncollege.html

Mijan24

Edited by mijan24, 2005-06-08 13:08:43.

[PeaceBlondie]

Fair to say that the website is not helpful about the 18 hour program because the orange line goes to no other site.  Perhaps the program is so new (and not launched yet) that the info's not available at all.

500 baht award is still on the table for definite, clear information in English, from the MoE, as to precisely what courses are required to qualify a BA to teach in which types of programs, amd where to get such training so that it will be approved by the MoE.  Perferably signed in blood by a civil servant who promises to lose face if he's not 90% correct.

[phormio]

PeaceBlondie, on 2005-06-08 23:37:57, said:

Fair to say that the website is not helpful about the 18 hour program because the orange line goes to no other site.  Perhaps the program is so new (and not launched yet) that the info's not available at all.

500 baht award is still on the table for definite, clear information in English, from the MoE, as to precisely what courses are required to qualify a BA to teach in which types of programs, amd where to get such training so that it will be approved by the MoE.  Perferably signed in blood by a civil servant who promises to lose face if he's not 90% correct.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That may be the crux of the problem; but it seems to me that the real question is what will the international school accrediting bodies(WASC,NEASC, CIS, ECIS) accept in teachers at international schools in Thailand; don't think this is at the discretion of the MOE, but I aint really sure.  The vagueness of the situation is such that I posted my questions on the forum here to see what might turn up.
Thanks to everyone for taking the time to respond.

[phormio]

Well I downloaded the on-line application forms, filled them out, sent them in and received confirmation of my acceptance into the Professional Teacher's Certification Program at Mission College, Aug 2005 , Bangkok Campus.

I still haven't gotten all the details but my geuss is that it'll help me get a good teaching position in Thailand and will help me satisfy the requirements of the bona-fide international schools. TiT. Nothing wrong with being optimistic ; nothing wrong with getting lucky.

I'll let you know as more information becomes available.

[phormio]

PeaceBlondie, on 2005-06-08 23:37:57, said:

Fair to say that the website is not helpful about the 18 hour program because the orange line goes to no other site.  Perhaps the program is so new (and not launched yet) that the info's not available at all.

Mentioned this to the program coordinator in an email. He just got back to me and said that the web site would be updated by the end of the week (lets check next Monday) and a program brochure would be ready soon and that he would send one out to me (when I get this I will photograph it with a digital camera and make it available here - if I can figure out how to do this)

PeaceBlondie, on 2005-06-08 23:37:57, said:

500 baht award is still on the table for definite, clear information in English, from the MoE, as to precisely what courses are required to qualify a BA to teach in which types of programs, amd where to get such training so that it will be approved by the MoE.  Perferably signed in blood by a civil servant who promises to lose face if he's not 90% correct.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Program coordinator said he checked with some of the international schools and that the WASC(Western Association of Schools and Colleges), one of the important international school accrediting bodies here in Thailand, does accredit schools that employ teachers who have gotten their teacher credentials(Professional Teacher Certification) through Mission Colleges' program. He has previously indicated that the MOE of Thailand also approves the program.
Nothing much else I can say,
just give her a try and pray.

[phormio]

Mission College's HomePage
Mission College's HomePage

So here it is, they've put a pdf up about the program - by going from Mission College's HomePage , selecting the Academics Tab, and the Programs of Study menu link you'll get to a link (below) with a pdf file - its a two page description of the program in pdf file format.

Mission College Professional Teacher Education pdf file

[PeaceBlondie]

Thanks, phormio.  I'm still confused and ignorant, or dazed and confused.  The new pdf that you just posted is little more than a green and white single page ad, that says the course goes from January to December (not the same as the prior URL that said it starts on August 28, 2005).  Which program is this?  How much does it cost?  How many hours per week, which days of the week?  Is it 15 or 18 credit thingies?  Does the MoE accept it?  Does the MoE not accept something else?

Thanks.  Sorry to keep bothering you.  Looks like the 500 baht is still safe in my wallet.  I know I'm being picky, and honestly I'm not likely to go this route, anyway, for personal reasons like my age.  But before some aspiring younger, serious teacher spends up to 40,000 baht and countless hours of graduate-level work, what's it worth when they finish?

Edited by PeaceBlondie, 2005-07-08 15:51:19.

[phormio]

PeaceBlondie, on 2005-07-08 15:50:05, said:

Thanks, phormio.  I'm still confused and ignorant, or dazed and confused.  The new pdf that you just posted is little more than a green and white single page ad, that says the course goes from January to December (not the same as the prior URL that said it starts on August 28, 2005).  Which program is this?  How much does it cost?  How many hours per week, which days of the week?  Is it 15 or 18 credit thingies?  Does the MoE accept it?  Does the MoE not accept something else?

Thanks.  Sorry to keep bothering you.  Looks like the 500 baht is still safe in my wallet.  I know I'm being picky, and honestly I'm not likely to go this route, anyway, for personal reasons like my age.  But before some aspiring younger, serious teacher spends up to 40,000 baht and countless hours of graduate-level work, what's it worth when they finish?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It's no bother, I appreciate your comments and questions. I agree with you - the program description on their site is not very good - though it does say that the Summer Program begins on August 28, 2005 and the application deadline is August 15, 2005.


As for the benefits of attending and obtaining the Professional Teaching Education Certificate, I'd say they are :
1. MOE(Ministry of Education of Thailand) approves the program

2. Western Association of Schools and Colleges (WASC), one of the major accrediting agencies for international schools, reportedly will accredit schools who hire teachers that have received their Professional Teacher's Certificate from Mission College's program.
I've heard this from two independent sources - from the program director of Mission College(who talked to a director of studies a midsized, about 500 students,  international school, who told him that teachers from Mission College's program were acceptable to WASC when accrediting schools). I've also heard this from a 25 year veteran of Thailand (who started his own international school a year or two ago and is currently undergoing accredidation), he was the person I originally heard about this program from. He has may contacts at MOE and has worked in many of the top name internationals in Bangkok over the years.

As for whom I believe would benefit from this program - individuals who:
1. have a Bachelors Degree in some field
2. don't already have a great deal of teaching experience
3. plan to stay in Thailand a long time
4. want to work in the international school system here in the LOS

If you hear anything else about this program, or teachers who have been through it, I'd love to find out how attending this program has impacted their teaching careers here in the LOS.

[Uli]

I just browsed all these postings in education fields. Interesting, how prices vary for international and EP schools. I would like to add an information on making the next step, an academid degree in an international program (English program, for business administration degrees there is a Chinese program since recently as well).

For three years now, I work as an adjunct professor at Thailand's largest university, Ramkhamhaeng University. Degrees offered in the international program are Bachelor of Business Administration, Bachelor of Arts (Mass Communication), and Bachelor of Arts (English Language). Tuition fee for these programs including books is 60-70,000 Baht per year.

Master programs (250,000 for two years part-time) include MBA, MA (Political Science), and MEd (Educational Administration).

PhD (Political Science) is 750,000 Baht, PhD (Business Administration) is 1 mio Baht.

There are less than 10% Thai lecturers. Allmost all professors are 'imported' for one month to conduct their course. The hold chairs at well-known universities, mainly in the United States and Europe. They certainly apply their own standards to their courses what contributes to the overall quality and state-of-the-art lecturers as well.

For more information, just have a look at http://www.iis.ru.ac.th. In case of questions, don't hesitate to ask me (ulrich.werner@gmx.ch).

Other universities charge much higher prices and, then, offer the Thai program with Thai lecturers who try to speak some English. These lecturers are considered well able to teach in an international program when they received a PhD 15 years ago from a second class university in Australia or the US. Sorry, when I say it that clear, but I have first hand experience from conducting lectures at other well-named universities in Thailand as well.

I want to invite all those who teach in such international programs
a) to challenge that in which I work (we only can get better)
to share their experiences

Have a nice day!

Uli

[astral]

I looked at an MSc degree in information technology, from a reputable UK university
The cost was US$22,750 (930,000 baht).
It was internet based with direct interaction with the professors where necessary.  So your prices sound about right to me.

[Uli]

astral, on 2005-12-14 18:31:55, said:

So your prices sound about right to me.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks a lot :-)

Anyway, I don't want to advertise our programs. Ramkhamhaeng is a State Open University with the duty to make education possible and affordable to everybody.

Many of our expats have children they want to send to a university. Not everbody is so well suited to be able to afford sending them abroad.

After working quite a while, I today tend to say that as better known the brand (university name,  as more students in the international programs get cheated, with a probalbe exception by Thammasat and Chulalongkorn and very few others.

Since everybody knows in Thailand that Western professors are expensive, everybody expects an international program being more expensive than a Thai program. In Thailand, we have since the last educational reform about two years ago, 120 Thai (private and public) universities plus AIT (Asian Institute of Technology in Rangsit).

Under pressure by educational reform and public relations, more and more universities offer an International College to compete on this lucrative market. Each university says the same to school leavers: We have experienced international lecturers, modern books, and multimedia classroom equipment.

When you look behind the curtains, the "experienced international lecturers" consist of one or two English teachers, the rest are Thai professors who received a PhD many years ago from a second-class Australian or U.S. university, and since then were very busy with administrative tasks rather than doing research or keeping in touch with their fields.

The "modern books" often turn out to be copies of U.S. college books from a few years ago. Even when new books are copied, the digital complement delivered with these books (companion Web sites, additional readings, short movies, and so on) are certainly not copied.

The multimedia classroom environment turns out to be a nicely renovated room with air-condition and good optics, bad ergonomics. A TV set is usally available, but if you look for a computer and and beamer for your PowerPoints - that is ordered already and will come soon. Can you so long print your PowerPoints out?

Coincidentally, the dean of such a new college very often is the president of the university. Officially, because he / she wants to show to public how meaningful this college is. With regard to the higher tuition fee, I cannot stop to have the idea that additional duties are paid separately ...

In good as in bad international programs, the students are always the same - curious, unexperienced, and nice people. It depends very much on the institution whether they will develop those skills needed to work succesfully in an international environment after graduating.

Do I need to say that those less nice programs usually cost double the tuition fee?

Among brand-devouted Thais, Ramkhamhaeng is of lowest value. Among foreign students from currently 33 students who do not know anything about the brand ranking among Thai universities in public perception, Ramkhamhaeng international program is obviously of highest value (otherwise, they would drop out quickly).

Within this limited environment of an expat community, I just try to start a (certainly, quite limited) discussion with colleagues and those who are on the customer side, may it be parents, future students, or friends of both.

Uli

[Uli]

My apologies for the many writing mistakes. One should not publish in a forum when in a rush.

I will tell my students :-)

Uli

[mbkudu]

Hi Uli,
I have visited Ramkhamhaeng's IIS campus and even sat in on a class. The director of studies, Dr. Piboon Puriveth is a very nice guy and runs a good program. The building is nice, modern, classes not too big, professors all western Phds and the cost of tuition amazingly affordable. See you in June, 06. Mbk

[Uli]

Hi, mbk,

you're welcome ;-)

Cu,
Uli

[Ladphrao]

I have taught in a number of International university programs, some better than others. I agree with some things Uli says but would question others. Uli seems to think "Thai professors who received a PhD many years ago from a second-class Australian or U.S. university" are not as good as "foreign teachers" (regardless of educational level?).  Although I am a foreigner, I don’t think that makes me automatically a better teacher than a Thai. Different, yes, but better? In my opinion the good international programs have a nice mix of local or foreign faculty to give the students a broader education, after all these are international programs, not American or British programs and Thailand is part of the international community. I have talked to a number of foreign students in international programs that appreciate having some Thai instructors as well and value the diversity of styles of ideas.

The basic problem is that there are too many international university programs in the country competing for a limited number of students with the ability to perform at university standards in a foreign language, English, and the few foreign students wanting to study in Thailand. There are also limited numbers of qualified foreign teachers willing to work for wages that are possible with current tuition fees, leaving some schools no choice but to rely heavier than they would like on local talent. Market forces prevent many of these schools from holding students to the standards they would like to. But let us not forget, the country is in the early stages of developing international educational programs and foreigners at times seem to be overly critical of anytime Thai that doesn't measure up to western standards. I can tell you that there are many universities in the USA and Australia (and I suspect other countries as well) that are less than perfect centers of academic learning, Thailand should not be singled out for having some less than stellar educational programs.  From my years working in Thailand in the International University programs, I see steady year by year improvements, but will agree that there is still much room for improvement.

I have not been involved with the international program at Ram, but I have researched it a little and from a distance it looked like a good program (but hardly an elite one), but there is no need to slam the other international programs in the country to make this point.

[Uli]

Certainly, no one is a bad lecturer only because of being Thai, and no foreigner automatically a good lecturer. Please don't understand me black-and-white.

However, there are some environmental and societal aspects coming along with Thai professors. First, after receiving their PhD they have to overtake administrative tasks, far more than in any Western university. As it was stated by Suntaree Komin (Psychology of the Thai People, NIDA 1991), this is still a typical academic career in Thailand that hardly leaves any room for being state of the art.

State of the art does not mean elite, it simply means to know and understand what is going on at the frontiers in one's own field of expertise.

Second, again with regard to Komin, within Thai society knowledge is regarded a personal issue. This means if you criticise one's knowledge or lack of it, you criticise the person, and that is not acceptable. Any academic or open discussions are impossible with the vast majority of Thai professors, at least outside very private face-to-face environments. This may be the reason why hardly any Thai researchers publish in English as well.

To avoid such personal criticism, the vast majority sticks close to the textbooks and performs lectures in the traditional understanding of this word.

Western professors (I don't speak about less costly colleagues from India or Bangladesh who increasingly appear in international programs now since I don't know them) are different in their communication style and in focussing more on skills than on factual knowledge. Again, I don't want to generalize, but from my experience, I can say it that way.

This difference is not a matter of the number of PhDs one may hold, or of purely academic honours. I come from management, for example, and as such, I am more a coach than a pure academic is. Over the past three years, I was lucky to see how these approaches of my Western colleagues (includes two Korean colleagues as well) and my own led to skill development among our students.

I am sorry to say that, but in three universities (one for three years, one for eight months, and one for one and a half year, the latter two in parallel to the first one), I found less Thai colleagues interested in skill development than I have fingers on one hand.

I am sorry that you think I am unfair against our Thai colleagues. However, your general defence does not meet my experiences either, nor those of international program students at Chula, Thammasat, Burapha, and others who are discussing with me per e-mail.

In my humble opinion, an international program is something else than a Thai program with Thai students and Thai lecturers (and, may be, an English language teacher) conducted in English. If a university cannot afford to offer, appropriate quality or does not find enough students who are willing to pay for that quality, this university is simply not competitive. There is a need neither for each university to offer such a program, nor for any student to study it. D'accord?

[Ladphrao]

Uli,

I don't think we have any serious disagreement. I would think the prime reason that most Thai Ph.D.s don't publish in English Journals is the extreme difficulties of writing at that level in a foreign Language. Very few native speakers below the Ph.D. level could pull off writing at the level required for an academic publication. My publication list isn't as long as some, but it is something I am working on and I have had many Thai co-workers want to work with me, not because I am brillant, but because I was lucky enough to be born in a country the uses the language of academic publication as a native language.

I have no doubt, the majority of other foreign teachers think Thai education is at a lower level than it is in the most advanced countries in the world. It is at a lower level, who would expect anything different?

If one compares Thai education with the education provided in other countries with similiar levels of development, I think Thai universities would stack up quite well.

I agree that "international" education needs to be more than strictly Thai education taught in English. But I don't think Thais teachers should be excluded completely from international education programs either.

I doubt we are too far apart in our views, but I do think at times we foreign teachers are too critical of everything Thai and don't look at the big picture of the country, its development and progress that is being made.

I prefer the half full over the half empty perspective.

Cheers

[Uli]

My warm greeting to Ladphrao from Ladphrao Soi 140!

At least with regard to the perspective, we definitely agree 

We currently have around 200 foreign students from over 30 countries on five continents. Considering their needs, having a Thai lecturer is an important part of cultural experience.

As more prominent (‘elite’) an institution, as more applications are submitted. From these applications, the institution can choose those who have the greatest potential. The average student quality so is quite high.

With regard to this, Ram is sure not an elite university and its international program is not an elite program. This is well in line with the task of Ram to offer affordable education to anybody as an open-admission university.

This situation gives people like me (sorry for mentioning my personal approach again) the freedom to develop new ways of teaching techniques, applied seminars, and so on. In contrast to far the most of my colleagues, I permanently live in Thailand and do for three years now nothing more than learning how Thai students, in combination with foreign students, develop best.

Eventually, we will agree that there is no ‘never’ in nationality or other characteristics. Besides personal qualification (that is in no way limited to the number of publications or degrees), even a very typical (in my quite negative diction) Thai lecturer fits well into an approach of diversity. Thai students did not expect anything different at all, and for the foreign students it is a cultural experience. We all have a cognitive blueprint by the societies we come from. For Thai students today, however, the Thai societal cognitive blueprint is unlikely helpful, and (apart very few exceptions) a Thai professor remains what it says, a Thai professor.

My apologies when I did not make my point clear enough. The university system is not my topic. Too little information is available worldwide on what it needs to prepare students for a globalised environment with ever-speeding changes and in which degree knowledge looses importance against skills.

Best regards,
Uli

[thaibebop]

Okay, I am planning, though not for sometime, to come to Thailand to live. I will research for publishing proposes while I am there. I am now in school to become a history Professor, I will leave America with no less than a Masters in History, depending on time and money I mighy leave with a Phd. I know that I will mostly likely end up teaching english, not history, however I was wondering a few things that you guys here might know the answers too.


Is there a place (university level or otherwise) for a History Professor with a masters or Phd?



If researching Thailand and South-East Asian history, is there a college(s) that have any recommendations over others in this field?



How many colleges are around the Bangkok area?



If I have a masters but not a Phd is it possible to get a Phd from a Thai College in History?


Thanks, Thaibebop

[Neeranam]

Mate, I'm having lunch today with a professor from Khon Kaen Uni  - I'll ask him and tell you later. Contact - Sabajai, he is very  knowledgable on these matters

[Abandon]

There are jobs teaching subjects other than English. There are lots of international schools and uni's to apply to that teach in English medium. You can always teach English while you find your bearings and apply for jobs.

Also do not limit yourself to history. The level of education in the West is far superior to Thailand, and you might find yourself able to fill all kinds of teaching and managerial positions.

You can do your Phd here no problem. The intensity of study is far lower and you should be able to take it while you are workind full time (which is usually about 25 teaching hours per week) It will be far, far cheaper for you to do it here, and will also be useful in looking for futher work in Thailand if you want to stay here long term. There are a few good universities in and around Bangkok, including Culalongkorn, Mahidol, Thammasart, APEC ....

It will also likely be much more fun to finish your Phd here ... Though there are places that teach in English, you can also study in Thai medium - all universities will allow you to write everything in English, including taking exams, even if you are in a thai medium course (meaning you will need rudimentary Thai so that you can communicate with teachers and follow lectures .. )

Edited by Abandon, 2006-02-04 12:28:24.

[thaibebop]

Thanks for your replies guys. It really helps to get information from people rather than internet sources. So, much of what I found doesn't address my issues. So, thank you very much.

Thaibebop