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[thaihome]

wilko, on 2007-10-08 09:30:20, said:

Stub & Intumult - So you are both of the opinion that the tiger temple is OK and a fine place to look after tigers?
Have you checked out their web site and LP??

The bigger question is have you ever been or do you let other people decide such things for you?
I don't think either of the poster you questioned say it is a perfect place.  They only said, that based on their own observations it is not as bad as others have made out.  And they are making an attempt to improve it.
TH

[Metropolitan]

Most of the stuff written about the Tiger Temple does seem based on hearsay. It all either goes back to the same message as the original post in this thread which seems to be constantly reposted everywhere who remains anonymous. And there is another person who was a volunteer at the temple...but a little Internet research shows they are involved in a website that takes money from people as donations for the temple, yet I know does not actually pass the money on - is in my eyes affects their credibility.  

If the original post on this thread had any holes in it, then one would have to question the rest of it but it has several in it. Read it a few more times and you'll see how it's not even consistent within itself.  

I will say that I know several people who've been in the breakfasts with the monks etc and none of them have had the same experiences as this nameless person. This poster also says there are no plans to release the tigers in the wild, yet they do mention the Buddhist Park. They obviously didn't put two and two together - 3,500 acres of reforestation would be a bit large just for just accommodate some followers don't you think? Stub also mentioned the lion cubs, I hadn't picked up on that beforehand. I've never heard of any lion cubs at the temple and if there were any, it would be interesting to know how they got there!

Re the accusation that one of the female tigers is used as a breeding machine and the cubs separated so that they can be hand reared. The first time that tiger had a litter, she couldn't feed it. She has subsequently had a litter that she has successfully fed herself. This is what I know but I feel that I should provide other info as well so did a bit of googling and here is a link to someone else writing up their trip, it's actually a PDF document so I can't do a hyperlink but if you copy/paste these words into Google, you'll get the document.

While at the monastery, we saw one of the three newborn Tiger cubs be rejected by his
mother, and we were told that she had earlier refused another one. Rod, a Canadian monk at the
“Tiger temple”, mentioned that the last time this tiger had given birth, two of the babies had died
because the monks left the second and third cubs with her even after she had rejected the first.

Also rationally it would not make sense that if they wanted to separate mother & cubs that one of the first things to have been built on the Tiger Island project is the 'mother & baby islet'?

Please note I'm not saying the Tiger Temple is perfect. Not by any means. But I do think they are getting things done. Arguably, their version of conservation and the version of western organisations, or at least the campaigning ones will never be aligned, no matter what they do.

[miklegget]

I spoke with this Rod today when I visited the Tiger Temple, he seemed a nice guy and took the time out to speak with me at great length about the place, granted the tiger temple might not be perfect but I have to say I really enjoyed the place.

Rod told me about a Monkey enclosure they had built that was only 2 foot high, when he said the monkeys could jump out of there no problem the Monks looked really surprised and this was after alot of hard work was done to build the enclosure, I think the Monks might be a little innocent, remember there not out there and worldy like alot of other people so sometime there methods are very different to what me and you might be used to, I really think the bottom line is the tigers are better off in the temple. And remember research is being carried out, of course it is. Many programs are looking to the tiger temple to find out why they're tigers are breeding so happily when in other developed countries the captive tigers are finding it very hard to breed.

I heard this yank today saying the place was really bad and that he had just given 37 dollers away just to look and take pictures of tigers and his wife was getting her pic taken with the tigers head on her lap, well for me I had just given 23 GBP away and really sometimes I spend that in a taxi fare just to get home after a nightout, personally I think they should charge more and speed up the process of building this new habitat for the tigers.

Its a once in a life time oppertunity for most people and all for under 100 GBP, i dont think you can beat it.

[klikster]

silverhawk_usa, on 2007-09-03 09:53:48, said:

Obviously the situation could be much better but I think the OP was overstating the cruelty factor and making it sound intentional.  This is Thailand and it is what it is.  I would be first in line to help if there was a quick and easy way to build a zoo or a large refuge for the tigers to roam free.  It isn't going to happen anytime soon.  And as you say, they cannot be released into the wild and I don't believe that was ever stated as their intent.

Patronizing an "attraction" encourages it.  I would suggest that an excellent alternative and better alternative might be the Khao Kaew Open Zoo on the way to Chon Buri.

[Wildliferescue]

I read many replies on the issue written on the website of the WFFT (wildlife Friends Foundation Thailand) and wish to clarify a few things concerning the tiger temple. I think we should first of all realize where the tigers originally came from. We have received reports that came from good sources that the first tigers came from an elephant camp nearby and were SOLD to the temple. The cubs were indeed orphans, but only after their mother was killed in the wild. It is also confirmed by the Royal Thai Police to us that they have NEVER given any confiscated tigers to the temple for (temporary) care. As a matter of fact all tigers at the temple have been officially confiscated from the temple (in 2002), but were allowed to remain there as the government had no holding facilities at that time.  

I think that the issue of animal welfare is an easy one to conclude here. Keeping tigers (and lately also lions and bears) in tiny dark enclosures is criminal. The excuse that there is no money for better enclosures a straight out lie. The temple has 300 to 400 visitors a day each paying 300 baht, besides this the animals are forced to lay down with tourists and be photographed for lots of money. They go back in their little cages immediately after the tourists leave. Volunteers at the temple have reported (and not just one individual but many) that the tigers that do not obey during the day will be disciplined in the evening by the monks and Thai staff, resulting in a beating to break their spirit.

I think that some people are scared to speak up as it involves monks here, but a very long documentary on Thai TV a few months ago showed the real face of the abbot on animal welfare and other even more serious mafia style practices at the temple by Thai journalists and locals that were threatened (TITV Thord Rahas). I myself live at a temple and work at many other temples and see that the majority of monks are real, but there are always some people that try to exploit the system.

my conclusion for this is that the tiger temple is NOT involved with WILDLIFE CONSERVATION at all as they do not educate, protect or conserve. They ARE involved in ANIMAL ABUSE as they keep the animals in bad conditions. The temple is a money spinner for those who take the admission fee and other money for the pictures with foreigners. You will hardly see Thai people there as they know what is going on, some other Asian people do come who are fooled by the story just as most of the westerners...

[wilko]

This quote from another web site allegedly a threat from the "friends" of the Tiger temple........

I would be very careful about 'bagging' tiger temple on the forums... I am one who does not like the Tiger Temple based on my personal experience however when I wrote a post about this on Trip Advisor I received a very nasty threatening private message from someone who has said they have downloaded my photos from my blogs and passed them onto people who are going to do their own thai style justice when I come back to thailand .... it was pretty sick!! Apparently I was screwing with peoples livelihoods by advising against going there... not very monk like behaviour whoever it was!!!

Here is just some of the threats made ( I have deleted the more obscene parts of the email) :

"You want to mess with my friends livelihoods do you? SKANK.

I can safely call you SKANK as i have seen your f*cked up head on your blogs that you advertised on this site, all which are pretty lame!!!

Now i believe you will be in Thailand February/March? Is this correct HO? And you will be spending some time with Tong? Well how about some Thai style justice from the people whose livings you are f*cking with. They know Tong well and are directly and indirectly involved with the Tiger Temple and are very interested in meeting you, you skank!!!! Then you can tell them your concerns in person about this particular institution, and how you want them to lose their livelihoods

I have already downloaded your pics and forwarded them, people are very intereted in you. A*S WIPE!!!!!! You deserve what is coming your way Skank!!!"

Charming people associated with this place!!

Reet xx
------------------------------
http://www.travelblo...g/bloggers/reet

[lioness]

Having been to the Tiger Temple 8 times now, I have to say I have never seen any Tiger being hit or punched.

If you arrive early you will see them in their enclosures, the helpers give each Tiger a bath before they come out ( I assume this is to maintain human contact rather more than clean them ) The Tigers seem to enjoy this.

Next the Tigers are bought out of their enclosures and congregate under the shade of trees, the younger ones are not tied up, you will see them climbing the trees and playing ( quite roughly when excited ) with their handlers.

Once they are all out, the main guide will tell you all to follow them on their walk to the canyon and tell you not to walk in front of them, The main Monk will walk with "his" Tiger and you are invited to take the leash and walk him and have your photo taken.

Once in the Canyon they each have umbrellas to lie under, some are chained, but most are not, they will just lay down and soak up the sun. You can have your photo taken with each of them, I don't care about the photo, just to sit on a rock with 3 tigers ( not chained )and tickle their feet and pat each one is enough for me. Where else can you have this experience, it instills in you what a truly magnificent creature they really are and you feel so priveledged to have had this close encounter.

After most of the visitors have finished with photos some of the Tigers will enter the small lake and play games and/or have a swim,( no handlers ) or run up the Canyon walls and have mock fights.

I personally have not seen cruelty of any discription, and the Tigers seem content enough considering they are in Captivity. Yes, there is probably a great deal more that could be done for them if you want to see them roaming free, the monastary has started, you will see new development there all the time.
In the last 2 years things have progressed by leaps and bounds, give it time.

[jackr]

wilko, on 2007-09-02 15:18:14, said:

There is a flagrant lack of respect and compassion.

Unfortunately that sentiment is fairly ubiquitous to Thailand in general regarding animals and, sadly, humans.

Went there about 5 years ago and while it was nowhere near as popular back then as it is now - something like 40 baht to get in and free for Thais - it was obvious that it was all about the cash. How the monks, if they are indeed real monks, can hold their heads up with what they're doing is beyond me... but then gain, I refer back to the quote

[wilko]

lioness, on 2008-01-06 12:16:20, said:

Having been to the Tiger Temple 8 times now, I have to say I have never seen any Tiger being hit or punched.

If you arrive early you will see them in their enclosures, the helpers give each Tiger a bath before they come out ( I assume this is to maintain human contact rather more than clean them ) The Tigers seem to enjoy this.

Next the Tigers are bought out of their enclosures and congregate under the shade of trees, the younger ones are not tied up, you will see them climbing the trees and playing ( quite roughly when excited ) with their handlers.

Once they are all out, the main guide will tell you all to follow them on their walk to the canyon and tell you not to walk in front of them, The main Monk will walk with "his" Tiger and you are invited to take the leash and walk him and have your photo taken.

Once in the Canyon they each have umbrellas to lie under, some are chained, but most are not, they will just lay down and soak up the sun. You can have your photo taken with each of them, I don't care about the photo, just to sit on a rock with 3 tigers ( not chained )and tickle their feet and pat each one is enough for me. Where else can you have this experience, it instills in you what a truly magnificent creature they really are and you feel so priveledged to have had this close encounter.

After most of the visitors have finished with photos some of the Tigers will enter the small lake and play games and/or have a swim,( no handlers ) or run up the Canyon walls and have mock fights.

I personally have not seen cruelty of any discription, and the Tigers seem content enough considering they are in Captivity. Yes, there is probably a great deal more that could be done for them if you want to see them roaming free, the monastary has started, you will see new development there all the time.
In the last 2 years things have progressed by leaps and bounds, give it time.

I affraid this is the kind of cluelessness that allows places like this to continue....it has been officially closed....it was not even good enought for the incredibly slack Thai laws.....how can you read this posting (and others )and not show the slightest concern?

[Metropolitan]

wilko, on 2008-01-07 15:50:42, said:

it has been officially closed....it was not even good enought for the incredibly slack Thai laws

Well, you could look at it like that, or you could look at it in other ways such as certain people wanting the tigers to be moved to Sri Racha.
Is that what you want...??

I'm assuming you are referring to the 'confiscation' or the land disputes some time ago which has not actually happened. The tiger temple has not been officially closed and it's misleading to suggest so. In fact it's had support from official sources since the disputes.

[Kan Win]

Me mate, a Khun Thai mentioned that he heard on the news, last week, that Thais where complaining that they are being changed 300 baht   same as us lot to visit "The Tiger Temple" in Kan. My Thai Kids also paid that last year, no complaints for me, as it was my money.

Answer was "We have to Feed them".  




Kan Win  


P.S. As the Tiger in the photo says...........................................................

[wilko]

Metropolitan, on 2008-01-07 20:23:32, said:

wilko, on 2008-01-07 15:50:42, said:

it has been officially closed....it was not even good enought for the incredibly slack Thai laws

Well, you could look at it like that, or you could look at it in other ways such as certain people wanting the tigers to be moved to Sri Racha.
Is that what you want...??

I'm assuming you are referring to the 'confiscation' or the land disputes some time ago which has not actually happened. The tiger temple has not been officially closed and it's misleading to suggest so. In fact it's had support from official sources since the disputes.

it was officially closed and they are "still waiting" for somewhere to put the Tigers - TIT!!!
Even the Thai authorities would not be so daft as to put the animals in the care of Sri Racha Zoo - which is really a euphemism for abbatoir

[rubierred]

I visited the tiger temple in February 2008, and the account by Seville is absolutely consistent with my own observations.

Further, there seemed to be an unwillingness and inability to provide proper answers to important questions concerning the welfare of the tigers (it is afterall supposed to be a sanctuary!). In my own experience, the monk handling the tiger cubs completely ignored reasonable queries, and the behaviour and responses of all handlers (including this particular monk) seemed to be devoid of a level of expertise required to appropriately CARE for the tigers, certainly with THEIR best interest as the primary purpose of (what cannot in any way be called) 'a sanctuary'.

As one example, I witnessed young cubs (without their mother) being literally closely chased at times by thirty or more camera-happy tourists whilst they attempted to run and explore, which can only be described as invasive to the tiger cubs. Even the handler attempted to prevent this relentless hot pursuit, although the tourist numbers really were against him. It suggests an environment that is foolishly out of control and which requires serious outside expert intervention without delay.

The tiger temple is questionable in the extreme. It represents nothing more than abuse and tragedy, so consistent with other accounts of animal exploitation in Thailand and other parts of South East Asia. Just another opportunity to attract the tourist dollar using the guise of benevolence.

seville, on 2007-09-21 23:49:56, said:

First off I have not been to the temple, but have volunteered at two wildlife rescue centers in Thailand and two in the U.S. all four are strongly against exploiting wildlife. What I am posting below was sent to me from WWFT and is what they send to people inquiring about volunteering there, especially when the Tiger Temple is mentioned.

My understanding is that there are strong efforts being made to take the animals away from the abbot and find more humane homes for them.



Something about the infamous tiger temple:

After hearing many complaints about the place from tourists and volunteers (we have even had volunteers come here after they left the tiger temple sick after a few days of volunteering), we visited the tiger temple with representative of international animal welfare / wildlife conservation organisations earlier this year. Short summary:

There are animals locked up in tiny, un-enriched enclosures.

Tigers are showing signs of malnourishment, e.g. sight defects. They have been fed on dogfood and chicken - an incomplete diet for felines.

Tigers are reported to be beaten and abused into submission (negative-reinforcement techniques), in order that they can be handled and paraded in front of the abbott and the tourists.

The monks / handlers do not have any training or equipment for tranquilising animals and therefore have no form of emergency control if a tiger goes bezerk. They rely heavily on negative reinforcement to keep the tigers docile, but there is always the risk of an animal getting out of control.

Tigers are chained up outside for several hours without shade or drinking water so that tourists can take photos of themselves with the tigers.

The initial 4 tigers have rumoured to have actually been bought by the abbott from an illegal wildlife trader, mixed species have been interbred and there are now at least 17 tigers from a limited gene-pool. The conservation value of this is more than questionable.

The tigers have been officially confiscated by the government, as the abbott has no legal documentation or permit to keep them. However, as the government have no-where else to take care of the animals, they remain under the "care" of the Tiger Temple.

The abbott himself is not open to constructive criticism of his operation or support from organisations wishing to improve the welfare of the animals and safety of the staff/volunteers/tourists.

Approximately 300 tourists pass through each day, each paying a mere $10 entrance fee plus extra fees for "special" photos with the tigers - i.e. approx. $20000 per week is cashed in, excluding further donations, and there is little sign that this is being spent on the welfare of the animals.

Apologies if this sounds harsh, but we like to be hard and to the point. If your aim is to volunteer for an organisation that has a high regard for the welfare of the animals, then we do not recommend the Tiger Temple in Kanchanaburi. If your aim is however to touch/pet wild animals, take your photo with them and generally exploit them for your own personal enjoyment and experience, then please do not consider applying to us as this behaviour is against our principles. For your information, we also have a campaign against wildlife exploitation in tourism, some information is on our website here: http://www.wfft.org/campaigns.htm

Edited by rubierred, 2008-03-10 15:40:07.

[Changian]

Thought the Tiger Temple would be interesting to visit.  A few photos taken last week.  You kind of hope that it isnt going to be as touristy and run down as you think it will be and also that the huge amount of money it rakes in is being spent wisely . . but  . . .

The tiget canyon - inhumane conditions - for the tourists.  No umbrellas for the tigers but msot were in the shade.  Tigers do get slapped on the head when they stir, but cant imagine this is that inhumane - our dog gets a slap on the nose if he's disobedient too. According to the handlers my g/f talked to they do sometimes bite  - hence the liability waiver you have to sign before going in.  

New compounds are being built - the plan says each tiger witll have  a rai of land to roam in.  But what's bieng built, whilst much better then the current cages, isnt exactly of the Singapore or Sam Diego Zoo quality and whilst is probably covers a rai - most of this is concrete.

Tiger food - do tigers naturally eat BBQ chicken?  I guess it it's good enough for the monks it's good enough for tigers. Thats the only food we could see in the cages.  I assuemd that the goats, deer, cattle etc were being bred as tiger food.  

A stated aim of the temple is to eventually release tigers back into the wild.  Introducing cubs to human contact when they are a couple of months old seems a strange way of doing this.  Also saw the cubs being chased around by tour  groups of people all wanting to try to pick it up and pet it.  The girl looking after it did her best to stop them, but one Thai girl against a bus load of 'Tiger Temple souvenir t-shirt' clad Israelis isn't a fair contest.

Tigers habitat
 tiger1.jpg   107.87K   5 downloads
The photo rules
 tiger9.jpg   76.48K   6 downloads
Tiger Canyon - tourists forced to stand in the hot sun waiting to have photos taken
 tiger8.jpg   123.26K   4 downloads
Fortuantely, the temple has it's own brand of drinking water to cool you down.  ( But it's free)
 tiger7.jpg   79.58K   4 downloads
More photos ops- three tiger cubs and a real life monk
 tiger6.jpg   108.48K   6 downloads
The new enclosures being built
 tiger5.jpg   144.02K   4 downloads
 tiger4.jpg   104.76K   4 downloads
Black bear in it's cage and the cages where tigers are kept. ( But if human live in 30sqm condos, why shouldnt tigers like living in small concrete boxes too?
 tiger3.jpg   104.29K   6 downloads
 tiger2.jpg   104.97K   4 downloads

[wilko]

THe aims are totally unachieved (unachievable?) and no Tigers don'rt eat BBQ'd cchicken...if it's good enough for one species (pseudo-monk) it doesn't mean it's OK for another.

THe "better" habitation has been flaunted for years...still nothing happens.

this all comes back to the establishments motivations and intentions......releasing into the wild????? - joke!

[wilko]

THere seems to be some development on the tiger front....


http://www.lonelypla...sageID=14132938

i quote...

"i have thoroughly researched the tiger temple and this is the highlights of the facts.

    * the original cubs were acquired through the tiger trade
    * the additional new cubs are acquired through the tiger trade
    * there is no veterinary care for these tigers of any benefit, and the tigers suffer endlessly
    * the diet is inadequate to the point the tigers bones are aged beyond there years
    * the mortality rate is 8 - 9 years old (captive tigers can live to 26+ when cared for correctly)
    * the beatings the tigers have recieved have malprinted them for life
    * the wildlife trade exists in the tiger temple

Numerous other points.

Dont think that because they are buddhists, that they are immune to corruption. They are.

They may be attempting to build larger enclosures, but the temple is built on a foundation of lies and corruption and it will fall."

[wilko]

This about the Sri Racha Tiger zoo too....

"Sri Racha is on the list... Sri Racha is a well known suspected tiger trading place. The question begs to be asked, if the zoo holds 180 tigers yet numerous cubs are born each year at the zoo, then where do the additional tigers disappear to. Let me guess............

I want to let everyone know how shocking the plight of the tigers has become, in this case the critically endangered Indochinese tigers, is. Not only are they being hunted to extinction in the wild, they are also subjected to the wildlife trade in places we thought they were safe. This is unacceptable.

A point I wish to clearly make is this is nothing to do with religion, this is soley to do with the wildlife trade and abuse of a critically endangered species. Anyone who tries to say that it is a religious thing is using a last ditch effort to discredit anyone who tries to expose the truth. Additionally, the accusation of "being a westerner" and "you dont understand the culture" is a crock! The Thai government signed the CITES(Convention on the International Trade of Endangered Species, Wild Flora and Fauna) agreement in 1983, The Thai Wildlife Conservation Act protects tigers and other creatures, and states it is illegal to trade endangered species.

So answering the suspicous elements on this post, although I am a so-called "westerner" (well an aussie) and although I havent been raised in the Thai culture, am I totally supportive of Thai Law in regard to the trade of endangered species, especially the great cats, big cats, and small cats, is my speciality.

The time for covering up issues in the environment and our earths wildlife are over. We have learnt the irreversable changes that we humans can cause and we ARE alot more aware.

Thanks to the people who are voicing their support, it is absolutely appreciated by me, but more importantly the incredible tigers and other animals which have suffered, they are finally getting a voice too.

Please pass this knowledge onto anyone for support of this. I'll keep the site updated with the progress. Genuine people please write to me at esiecs@optusnet.com.au where I am starting a partition for people to put there name to for verbal only support.

Cheers"

[wilko]

and if you doubt the hitting of the animals....."smack"

[wilko]

Here's an update on the scandalous tiger temple's shenanigans....

Tiger trade with Laos

[fastfist]

I volunteered at the temple. I DID see tigers being hit with sticks, rocks and fists. I left because of the abuse that was increasing daily. People who have only visited for a couple of hours don't see the real Tiger Temple. Most people who visit the temple are blinded to the abuse in the canyon by the opportunity to have close and personal photos with tigers. You maight be happy and comfortable at the temple, but the tigers are not.

[twschw]

Why didn't you just post this in your pervious thread?  It is the same arguement all over again.  Can we look forward to an October edtion?

http://www.thaivisa....at-t195843.html

[Sherlocke]

Apparently the place is now "officially recognized" as a ZOO.

[IanForbes]

I visited that Kanchanaburi tiger zoo tourist trap ONCE! I advised every other person I met in Kanchanaburi to not even consider going. The tiger cages were small and dark and not particularly clean. Tourists were conned into having their photos taken by the monk holding the camera. All other tourists were a 100 meters away... and too far for good photos. I wouldn't go back if someone paid me.

If you want to see tigers then go to the Bangkok zoo. Or, there used to be a good place half way between Bangkok and Pattaya that also had crocodiles and an elephant show besides the tigers. The tigers get treated much better there.

[F4UCorsair]

If only a small part of what is alleged is true, then that's another reason not to visit for me.

The first reason is that these are wild animals, and one bite could kill me.  I value my life more than that, but if others choose such a degree of foolishness, that's their business.

I've motorcycled past it a few times and thought about but visiting but no more.

[Soboringtochooseaname]

Apart from an American guy who must believe hhe is a guard at Guantanamo and keep shouting his advertising the tiger temple is OK, but still very expensive for what it is (600thb), especially when you know that doing anything else but taking a photo with the tigers must be paid 1000 thb more !

Just wonder where is going the money...

Not all used to feed the tigers for sure ! Maybe this US guy has some special reasons to shout-advertise so much for more activities...