16 replies to this topic

[bina]

so where do i find the words for me and myself; examples of use; differences in the nongkhai/udon dialect which is the one that i am most exposed to here.  --

i'm being taught by one guy from korat, one from buriram, one from nongkhai, etc.... so very confusing but may help to keep my brain sharp and therefor young  

was thinking of writing my own issan/thai/english /hebrew dictionary; snowleapard et al, great examples... finally things i've been hearing and trying to study are falling slowly slowly in to place.  just now getting used to talking with chan and not speaking of myself in  third person (i;m a woman and this is supposedly still acceptable); also finally moving to full sentences and not 'babytalk' type speech;


an other question: the use of particles for identifying things: i.e. 'tua' , sen etc....
why are the groupings so seemingly arbitrary?  why are knives (mit) lem, and spoons , khan? both knife and spoon are eating utensils.  Look in benjawan's book for complete list but just really learned to use them yesterday.

[Richard W]

bina, on Sun 2004-08-01, 22:32:22, said:

an other question: the use of particles for identifying things: i.e. 'tua' , sen etc....
why are the groupings so seemingly arbitrary?  why are knives (mit) lem, and spoons , khan? both knife and spoon are eating utensils.  Look in benjawan's book for complete list but just really learned to use them yesterday.

According to my textbook, you can use เล่ม /lem/ for things with handles - it quotes the list as, 'Books, knives, forks, spoons, umbrellas and things with handles such as ox carts, wheel barrows etc.'.  For books, think of scrolls.

The classifier คัน /khan/ is supposes to be used for vehicles other than ox carts.  As an ordinary noun, it means 'handle, handspike'.  The entry for คัน at thai-language.com says it can be used for 'vehicles, cars, umbrellas, etc.'.  We thus have competition between these classifiers!

[username2004]

Wow, Richard, you seem to know all the rules! I admit that I cannot use all the classifiers correctly, and I have never learned any rules you mentioned. We have been taught in school to simply remember, since there is no definite rule. For instance: one of the rules in your book: "เล่ม /lem/ for things with handles" But we say, "ร่มหนึ่งคัน" (rom neung khan = An umbrella)


ลูกบอล (look ball = a ball)
Correct classifier: ใบ (bai)
Incorrect classifier, the one I and other Thais often, if not always, use: ลูก (look) [A ball = ลูกบอล 1 ลูก = look ball nueng look]


A Knife
Correct classifier: เล่ม (lem)
Incorrect classifier, the one I always use: อัน (un)

NOTE: Classifier is "ลักษณะนาม" (luck sa na narm) in Thai. It's one of the unique characteristics of Thai I am proud of  

[RamdomChances]

Hi bina

Myself = ing

i.e chan ja tam ing = I will do myself

for me you just use the words for I

[snowleopard]

RamdomChances, on Mon 2004-08-02, 11:20:53, said:

Hi bina

Myself = ing

i.e chan ja tam ing = I will do myself

for me you just use the words for I

Hi there Bina.
Let me elaborate a bit on Random C.'s post.

Here are a few suggestions on how to use "self" in Thai.

1.เอง "eyng"=self;ฉันเอง chan eyng= "myself;คุณเอง "khun eyng"=yourself
2.ตนเอง "dton eyng"=self,oneself
3.ในตัวเอง nai dtoa eyng"=personal
4.ด้วยตนเอง "doi dtoa eyng"=by oneself
5.เห็นแก่ตัว "hen gae dto-a"=selfish
6.ไม่เห็นแก่ตัว "mai hen gae dto-a"=unselfish

Cheers.
Snowleopard.

[bina]

richard, according to both my 'live' sources and the benjawan book, spoons and forks are 'kan'; knives are 'lem' ..
so the handle theory?? seems to go.  what do tires and hairs have in common to make them 'sen'?   balls and fruit and mountains (!) are luuk and then eggs, boxes and sheets of paper are 'bai'; but then fruits reappear with 'bai' also.......

probably one of those things as user2004 said-- will just have to 'know'  or imitate what i hear; at least know when people speak i 'hear' and recongnize more words. for a while i seemed to have reached a sort of plateau of learning... i guess to give my brain time to incorporate the info into the cells.

it certainly helped pass a few saturday hours with lots of laughter as we did comparisons to what they say and what is written....

thanx snowleopard and rc

[meadish_sweetball]

And please allow me to build a little on Snowleopard's post:

ตัวเอง  'tua eeng' and ตนเอง  'ton eeng' and are more or less interchangable - 'ton eeng' being the more formal or literary choice and 'tua eeng' the most frequently used spoken alternative.

Here are some more interesting expressions from David Smyth's 'Thai - An essential Grammar' which is well worth buying for serious students of Thai at beginner's or intermediate level:

jiam tua เจียมตัว - to be self-effacing
khaay tua ขายตัว - to sell oneself
khayaay tua ขยายตัว - to expand
khaw tua ขอตัว - to excuse oneself
len tua เล่นตัว - to play hard to get
lyym tua ลืมตัว - to forget oneself
prap tua ปรับตัว - to adapt onself
ruu tua รู้ตัว - to be aware
sanoe tua เสนอตัว - to put oneself forward
sia tua เสียตัว - to loose one's virginity
sia sala tua เสียสละตัว - to sacrifice oneself
sawn tua ซ่อนตัว - to hide oneself
thyy tua ถืตัว - to be aloof

In the following cases, "เอง" 'eeng' is also required:

man jay tua eeng มั่นใจตัวเอง - to be self-confident
chuay tua eeng ช่วยตัวเอง - to help oneself
pheung tua eeng พึ่งตัวเอง - to rely on oneself

To do something "by oneself" uses ด้วย duay + 'tua eeng', or 'ton eeng'.

phom sawm rot duay tua eeng ผมซ่อมรถด้วยตัวเอง - I mended the car by myself.

I hope that helps somebody!  

Cheers,

Meadish

PS. Another one, concerning telephone conversations:

- Who am I speaking to?
- It's me.

- khray phuut khrap? ใคร พุด ครับ
- phom/chan eeng.    ผม / ฉัน เอง

[username2004]

Just a caution:

ช่วยตัวเอง (chuay tua eng = to help oneself) can sometimes be slang, meaning "to masturbate." So be careful!   แล้วจะหาว่าไม่เตือนหละ อิอิ (leaw ja ha wa mai tuen la ie ie = Don't you say I have not warned you about this.)

NOTE: I am not sure if my English translation of my sentence (แล้วจะหาว่าไม่เตือนหละ) are rude or offensive, but in Thai the sentence carries a humorous sense. So...

[bina]

yes it all certainly helps,


whatever you all write here, i go and try out on the guys after work, at the risk of being laughed at every time (well , maybe laughed with since my efforts are appreciated, and it helps them pass the time when not working); with the advantage that my children are exposed almost daily to an other foreign language besides english, arabic and russian; with tastier incentives (thai food not too spicy and no pork, just for them) hunger is always a good incentive for learning a language


now
sia tua เสียตัว - to loose one's virginity
sia sala tua เสียสละตัว - to sacrifice oneself


does this mean that loosing ones' virginity is a sacrafice?

[meadish_sweetball]

Quote

sia tua เสียตัว - to loose one's virginity
sia sala tua เสียสละตัว - to sacrifice oneself


does this mean that loosing ones' virginity is a sacrifice?

Hi Bina,

Interesting question. I could not answer that properly for you - Username2004 is probably much better at explaining this, but I can share my experience with you anyway:

For girls, losing their virginity *before marriage* was at any rate not seen as something positive in traditional Thai culture - 100 years ago it would mean major complications for the girl, as her desirability would be greatly reduced.

Today however, a growing proportion of Thai society, especially in the cities, believe that losing one's virginity before marriage is maybe not the absolutely worst thing that can happen. Then again, maybe not the best, either.

[username2004]

I quite agree with meadish_sweetball. However, I still believe that losing one's virginity before marraige is still seen by majority as inappropriate. This isssue in fact has often been discussed in a very popular Thai web board -- and most of the participants (80%) still hold the traditional Thai culture. Personally, I think it's good...Am I too conservative????

No offense, but I think that Thai should be--and will always be--Thai; Thais should not adopt all of the Western cultures. That is what makes all of us unique.

[Johpa]

username2004, on Mon 2004-08-02, 08:09:55, said:

A Knife
Correct classifier: เล่ม (lem)
Incorrect classifier, the one I always use: อัน (un)

Although  อัน (an) is not the most precise classifier it is acceptable as the common generic classifier for objects.  If one is not sure about a classifier then อัน is the safest bet.

[Johpa]

bina, on Mon 2004-08-02, 14:04:06, said:

now
sia tua เสียตัว - to loose one's virginity
sia sala tua เสียสละตัว - to sacrifice oneself


does this mean that loosing ones' virginity is a sacrafice?

Now we are getting a little overly talmudic.  Besides, I usually hear "sia kwam sao" for loosing one's (female) virginity although I have never, ever, heard "sia kwam bao" for men.  : )

[bina]

johpa,

nice that u caught on but you know that many roots of words show up in other words as a basis for the word with the original meaning hidden within, as it were... for example: yaakov יעקוב jacob from the  word lakov לעקוב (to follow) (cant remember the biblical real referance but he 'followed' after someone, and ekev עקב(heel) follows the foot et etc etc...in english i cant seem to really think of any examples but stands to reason that thai has tons of them....

so assumed that the words that mean losing virginity would be equated with making a sacrafice (the girls worth, or life) ; again, 10 hours of sun, people and goats means my brain is slow to elaborate properly/


now adays people may just think they are saying sacrafice  w/o realizing the root meaning or connotations behind the word; or maybe i am wrong?!

if i am correct, than thai people can make lots of clever puns and word plays, no?

[snowleopard]

Quote

sia tua เสียตัว - to loose one's virginity

Here are some more.

1.เสียสาว "sia saow"
2.เสียความบริสุทธิ์ "sia kwahm bori-soht"
3.ทำให้สูญเสียความสาว "tham hai soon sia kwahm saow"=deflower

Snowleopard.

[username2004]

เสียพรหมจรรย์ (sia prom-ma-jun) = to lose one's virginity

virginity is "พรหมจรรย์."

Quote

now adays people may just think they are saying sacrafice w/o realizing the root meaning or connotations behind the word; or maybe i am wrong?!

if i am correct, than thai people can make lots of clever puns and word plays, no?

Well, it depends on context. You can say if as long as your peers share the same connotations.

[Richard W]

Richard W, on Mon 2004-08-02, 01:22:13, said:

bina, on Sun 2004-08-01, 22:32:22, said:

an other question: the use of particles for identifying things: i.e. 'tua' , sen etc....
why are the groupings so seemingly arbitrary?  why are knives (mit) lem, and spoons , khan? both knife and spoon are eating utensils.  Look in benjawan's book for complete list but just really learned to use them yesterday.

According to my textbook, you can use เล่ม /lem/ for things with handles - it quotes the list as, 'Books, knives, forks, spoons, umbrellas and things with handles such as ox carts, wheel barrows etc.'.  For books, think of scrolls.

The classifier คัน /khan/ is supposes to be used for vehicles other than ox carts.  As an ordinary noun, it means 'handle, handspike'.  The entry for คัน at thai-language.com says it can be used for 'vehicles, cars, umbrellas, etc.'.  We thus have competition between these classifiers!

For those who want to know, my textbook is the Fundamentals of the Thai Language by Campbell and Shaweevongs.