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[Jingthing]

Quote

Troll comment....if you are referring to my country's involvment in Iraq...what oil are we getting from there now

Don't distort history, bub. Iraq was about oil. Rumsfeld said the war would pay for itself, with oil. He was wrong and the entire adventure was a mistake sold based on lies (most US people probably still think Iraq was behind 911). That said, I would have loved to see the cavalry smash those evil Burmese generals! Now, that would be a GOOD war.

[brahmburgers]

SGDude, on 2009-05-16 13:26:06, said:

Well... You cannot expect Asian countries to meddle with another country's politics when most Asian countries would prefer to mind their own business.

ASEAN countries' leaders are spineless. They never take a strong stand based on principle. Every stand they take is based on money and face. Every good initiative on the planet, whether it be assisting E. Timorese, or instigating environmental innovations, stems from western countries. When it comes to innovative thinking that helps others, Asian countries follow behind belatedly, if they act at all - and then only if they cannot avoid doing so. Name one Asian based charity that assists people outside their immediate ethnic group. I doubt you can. In contrast, there are thousands of such charities based in western countries. Even the Red Cross has a sister organization in the Middle East called the Red Crescent (though they'd never assist Israel, but that's another story). Is there an equivalent of the Red Cross or MSF (medecins sans frontiere) in Asia. Not that I know of.

duchovny, on 2009-05-16 13:35:43, said:

Where's the proof that she would be any better than the current regime if she was to get into power?
Show me one leader in SE Asia, present or past, who didn't give in to corruption.(nah, really, show me)
Corruption and anti-humane dictatorship is part of the culture and in their blood. She would be the same, she's Burmese, isn't she?

What a simpleton thing to say! She would be worlds different from the current regime if she were allowed to be where the Burmese people voted her to be. Sure, there would be problems in Burma regardless, but the difference in scale, between what exists to today, and what would exist were someone like Aung See at the helm, is vast. The first head of the UN from Asia was a Burmese man, U Thant. Burmese, as a people, have a whole lot they could add to Asian/worldwide development, if they weren't witheringly suppressed by their own army thugs. They might even influence the Thai people to read books and learn English, but that remains to be seen.

[mmushr00m]

There is no complain because there is no asian/asean country that is a free/democratic country.

1) Thailand - Definitely not democratic or should I say a "democracy" run by the elites
2) M'sia - 1 party since independence, press control and religious card use to stymie opposition
3) S'pore - basically 1 party as the govt takes legal action against anyone that criticizes it
4) Cambo - Hun Sen
5) Laos - Techincally still commie
6) Vietnam - see above
7) Brunei - the kiing is the PM andthe cabinnet his family members
8) Indo - maybe a slight emergence of democracy
9) Phils - a "democracy" run by the elites
10) Myanmar.

[Jingthing]

I thought Indonesia was doing better now than slight, but very good list there.

[thunder30101]

I sympathise with her situation but 19 years wasted for one person is just ridiculous, there are others that could work for change in burma, but no all the countries and groups think only only she can bring democracy whatever that would be. I would like to see some other independants brought forward, if they havent figured out yet there is no way than shwe and his group are going to deal with her they deserve what they get.

[EndofDays]

Jingthing, on 2009-05-16 14:51:50, said:

Quote

Troll comment....if you are referring to my country's involvment in Iraq...what oil are we getting from there now

Don't distort history, bub. Iraq was about oil. Rumsfeld said the war would pay for itself, with oil. He was wrong and the entire adventure was a mistake sold based on lies (most US people probably still think Iraq was behind 911). That said, I would have loved to see the cavalry smash those evil Burmese generals! Now, that would be a GOOD war.

If it was about oil, than we would drill in our own backyard. Sorry to dillute your comments. For Mynamar, the question is that will surrounding Asian countries do anything such as economic boycott. The answer is probably "now" because they are thinking short-term, such as much of the world does. Most in the U.S. don't think Iraq had anything to do with 9/11 and that case was never put forward. It was a case of the U.N. being useless as usual in enforcing its own policies. But it is not about the rest of the world when it comes to Mynamar. I thought it was pathetic when the U.S. had to get involved in the Balkans conflict because Europe was so atrophied to do anything even in their own backyard. Thailand is a leader, in this part of the world, I believe, and has the ability to make a difference, current political conflict not withstanding. But they are looking at the short-term advantage of using kid gloves with Burma. India, especially, is building its relations with Burma because of the untapped natural resources that exist there. China is waiting in the wings, as well, to get into the act as well.

[duchovny]

brahmburgers, on 2009-05-16 14:57:49, said:

duchovny, on 2009-05-16 13:35:43, said:

Where's the proof that she would be any better than the current regime if she was to get into power?
Show me one leader in SE Asia, present or past, who didn't give in to corruption.(nah, really, show me)
Corruption and anti-humane dictatorship is part of the culture and in their blood. She would be the same, she's Burmese, isn't she?

What a simpleton thing to say! She would be worlds different from the current regime if she were allowed to be where the Burmese people voted her to be.

The PI said that about Gloria, and she turned out just like the rest of them. As I said, it's the culture of SE Asia. No matter how you and other PC western do-gooders try to change that, it aint gonna happen buddy, no matter who gets in. Suu Kyi included.

[EndofDays]

thunder30101, on 2009-05-16 15:20:01, said:

I sympathise with her situation but 19 years wasted for one person is just ridiculous, there are others that could work for change in burma, but no all the countries and groups think only only she can bring democracy whatever that would be. I would like to see some other independants brought forward, if they havent figured out yet there is no way than shwe and his group are going to deal with her they deserve what they get.

Well, she has international exposure and credibility...and I think that all the others who could step forward are dead. Or have just dissapeared somewhere....

[Jingthing]

Well she is only one person, aging and reports she has health problems. It is folly to peg the hopes of an entire nation on one person.

[H2oDunc]

duchovny, on 2009-05-16 13:35:43, said:

Where's the proof that she would be any better than the current regime if she was to get into power?
Show me one leader in SE Asia, present or past, who didn't give in to corruption.(nah, really, show me)
Corruption and anti-humane dictatorship is part of the culture and in their blood. She would be the same, she's Burmese, isn't she?

Bigoted and narrow minded come to mind! This is a woman who won an overwhelming majority in an election 12 years ago and has since been under either detention or house arrest. How can somebody like yourself just ASSUME she will be the same. Some people just don't get it !!!!!!!!!!!!!

[duchovny]

H2oDunc, on 2009-05-16 15:45:04, said:

duchovny, on 2009-05-16 13:35:43, said:

Where's the proof that she would be any better than the current regime if she was to get into power?
Show me one leader in SE Asia, present or past, who didn't give in to corruption.(nah, really, show me)
Corruption and anti-humane dictatorship is part of the culture and in their blood. She would be the same, she's Burmese, isn't she?

Bigoted and narrow minded come to mind! This is a woman who won an overwhelming majority in an election 12 years ago and has since been under either detention or house arrest. How can somebody like yourself just ASSUME she will be the same. Some people just don't get it !!!!!!!!!!!!!

You are just ASSUMING that she's an angel and a good leader.

[cmsally]

duchovny, on 2009-05-16 16:10:49, said:

H2oDunc, on 2009-05-16 15:45:04, said:

duchovny, on 2009-05-16 13:35:43, said:

Where's the proof that she would be any better than the current regime if she was to get into power?
Show me one leader in SE Asia, present or past, who didn't give in to corruption.(nah, really, show me)
Corruption and anti-humane dictatorship is part of the culture and in their blood. She would be the same, she's Burmese, isn't she?

Bigoted and narrow minded come to mind! This is a woman who won an overwhelming majority in an election 12 years ago and has since been under either detention or house arrest. How can somebody like yourself just ASSUME she will be the same. Some people just don't get it !!!!!!!!!!!!!

You are just ASSUMING that she's an angel and a good leader.

Well how about letting her out and giving her a chance, or in this day and age is it simply acceptable to lock people up because they MIGHT commit a crime. For sure there is the possibility of corruption and mismanagement but whether directly at her instigation is another matter. Leading the country and improving the country would be a momentous task and of course she wouldn't be doing it alone.
However to suggest that the present situation is in any way better, is ludicrous.
People need to be judged on their own merits and I think the present leadership has shown what they consist of.
How could anyone condone keeping a person locked up based on the track record of other leaders in other countries; if this were the case then no one would be allowed as leader of any country. In Burma at the moment you have a totally zero sum equation of leaders getting everything and people nothing. I am sure even if the people received a modest income it would be an improvement , but hopefully opportunities would be greater than that.

[churchill]

Obama extends Myanmar sanctions

"Barack Obama, the US president, has formally extended US sanctions against Myanmar.

The move increases pressure on the military government to drop new charges against Aung San Suu Kyi, the opposition leader and Nobel peace laureate.

However, the government appears ready to begin her trial on Monday on charges that she violated the terms of her house arrest.

"I have determined that it is necessary to continue the national emergency with respect to Burma and maintain in force the sanctions against Burma to respond to this threat," Obama said in a message to Congress on Friday.

Hillary Clinton, the US secretary of state, has said that she wants to find a "better way" to sway Myanmar's military leaders."

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/asia-pac...3727451303.html

[Jingthing]

The US can't really do anything that will make a difference. If they did, big old China would not be pleased ...

[Briggsy]

duchovny, on 2009-05-16 13:35:43, said:

Where's the proof that she would be any better than the current regime if she was to get into power?
Show me one leader in SE Asia, present or past, who didn't give in to corruption.(nah, really, show me)
Corruption and anti-humane dictatorship is part of the culture and in their blood. She would be the same, she's Burmese, isn't she?

I agree with your comment that there are no clean governments in SE Asia. However I must assume you are unfamiliar with the litany of appalling abuses committed by the military junta. It has been described as a government at war with its own people. Any kind of disagreement, dissent or opposition to its policies is mercilessly crushed. Many citizens have been killed unseen in prison cells or mowed down in the street by troops. Extraordinary economic mismanagement has left the resource-rich country at a sub-Saharan African level. Enslaving, murdering, and raping villagers has been shown to be systematic. The will of the people to select their own leaders has been ridden roughshod over.

Any kind of political, economic or social marker such as freedom of the press, per capita GDP, free elections, adequacy of healthcare, ability to travel both domestically and internationally, etc. puts Burma in the true basket case category.

Your argument certainly puts the Suu Kyi Utopians in their place but does not really hold water beyond that. Just ask any Burmese, if they had the chance to go and work in Thailand or Malaysia tomorrow, would they risk it? A huge number would be out of Burma in the blink of an eye.

[brahmburgers]

Jingthing, on 2009-05-16 17:05:59, said:

The US can't really do anything that will make a difference. If they did, big old China would not be pleased ...

Somewhat true, though I'd still like to see a well-executed raid on the power brass hiding out in their bunkers.

There must be at least one Burmese general who's got some sense of decency, and who gives a hoot for the Burmese people. And there must be some way to access that person, and see whether he'll support an insurgency - with the goal of setting up somewhat-free elections in Burma.

Ok, it's unlikely Uncle Sam will go charging in to Burma with guns blazing (darn it), so the next best scenario is a coup (hopefully bloodless, like Thailand's) taking over, and beginning the process of handing Burma back to the people within the country; Burmese AND the myriad disenfranchised groups, ethnic, tribal, Rohinga, Karen, Shan, Chin, and whomever else.

I have a personal affection for the Burma, stemming from traveling some there, and from knowing a couple score Burmese, (some intimately, I may add). I can't completely explain my affinity for them as a whole. I feel the same for Tibetans. I guess it's just an odd quirk in my character. Along with that, every time I see a photo or video or Ms Ang Su Kui, I feel deep admiration for her. Call me a nut, whatever, that's how I feel - (and ordinarily I can be as callous and cynical as the next guy about other stuff/people).

[sabaijai]

H2oDunc, on 2009-05-16 15:45:04, said:

duchovny, on 2009-05-16 13:35:43, said:

Where's the proof that she would be any better than the current regime if she was to get into power?
Show me one leader in SE Asia, present or past, who didn't give in to corruption.(nah, really, show me)
Corruption and anti-humane dictatorship is part of the culture and in their blood. She would be the same, she's Burmese, isn't she?

Bigoted and narrow minded come to mind! This is a woman who won an overwhelming majority in an election 12 years ago and has since been under either detention or house arrest. How can somebody like yourself just ASSUME she will be the same. Some people just don't get it !!!!!!!!!!!!!

Aung San Suu Kyi has never won an election, nor has she ever been a candidate in an election. The election was 19 years ago. The NLD captured 58% of the vote and the leading candidate for the party was U Kyi Maung, an ex-military leader.

NLD vice chairman Tin Oo's house arrest was also extended this year, by the way, but no one seems to have noticed.

U Kyi Maung passed away in 2004 at the age of 85.

[sabaijai]

NLD sets pre-conditions for role in elections
by Mungpi
Wednesday, 29 April 2009 22:02

New Delhi (Mizzima) - Burma’s main opposition party – the National League for Democracy – on Wednesday said it was willing to contest the forthcoming 2010 elections if the military regime releases political prisoners, and makes proper amendments to its Constitution.

Nyan Win, the NLD spokesperson, said the party would decide on contesting the 2010 elections only if the government unconditionally released political prisoners, including Daw Aung San Suu Kyi, Tin Oo Khun Tun Oo, Sai Nyunt Lwin, Min Ko Naing and Ko Ko Gyi, and reviewed and amended the 2008 Constitution.

“We reiterate our call to the junta to amend the Constitution and for the release of political prisoners, and then we will decide on contesting the 2010 elections,” Nyan Win told Mizzima.

The NLD voiced its stand in the “Shwegonedine Declaration” released on Wednesday, at the conclusion of a two-day plenary meeting between party leaders in Rangoon on April 28 and 29.

The NLD, which won a landslide victory in the last general elections in 1990, said so far they had not prepared for the ensuing elections, but would do so once the government responded to their request of reviewing the Constitution and amending the contents that were undemocratic.

“These points are the pre-conditions for us to be able to contest the elections,” Nyan Win added.

The party also called on Junta supremo Snr. Gen Than Shwe to embark on a dialogue with detained opposition leader Daw Aung San Suu Kyi.

Burma’s ruling military junta, as part of its seven-step roadmap, approved a new Constitution in a referendum in May 2008 and declared it would hold a general election in 2010.

However, the opposition, including the NLD have said, the junta’s Constitution was drafted unilaterally and does not reflect the peoples’ aspirations. The NLD has called for a review of the Constitution and the amendment of its contents.

But a few critics have said, the NLD should realize that it needs to take a clear-cut stand on the junta’s proposed 2010 elections, as the current stand could confuse the people.

Aung Naing Oo, a Thailand-based Burmese political analyst, said, the NLD should take a clear stand on whether they would contest the 2010 elections, because having no clear stand reduces their credibility.

Aung Naing Oo said, “If the NLD considers itself a revolutionary group, then they should clearly reject the junta’s elections on grounds that it would be manipulated, but if they consider themselves a political party, it would be wise for them to contest the elections.”

But, with the junta not wanting the NLD to take part in the election, the party’s pre-conditions for joining the elections could be serving the junta’s interest, as the junta was unlikely to fulfill them, Aung Naing Oo added.

“The junta would obviously prefer not having the opposition contesting the elections. So the NLD’s current stand of demanding pre-conditions could be serving the junta’s interests,” he said.

But Nyo Ohn Myint, in-charge of the exiled NLD-Liberated Area’s Foreign Affairs Committee, said going ahead without the NLD would put a big question mark on the junta’s legitimacy, as the NLD was the legitimate winner of the 1990 elections.

“The junta would lack legitimacy, if the NLD does not contest the elections,” he said.

He said, the NLD was clear in its stand in setting pre-conditions before it could decide on joining the elections, as there was no guarantee that the junta would honour the election results.

“Without all these pre-conditions, nobody can assure that the junta will honour the election results just like they did not in the 1990 elections,” he said.

He said, with the NLD declaring their pre-conditions, it was only fair to give some space and time to the junta to think it over before the NLD could make another move by declaring their stand on the elections – to reject or to contest.

Aung Shwe, NLD’s Chairman, in his opening speech on Tuesday urged NLD members to brainstorm on the junta’s elections and to decide what the party should do.

Nyan Win said, the two-day meeting at the party headquarters in Rangoon’s Shwegonedine had been crucial as they were able to come up with a unified stand. He said, it was the fifth such meeting that the NLD had been able to hold in the past 20 years.

[brahmburgers]

Burma's leaders are a lot like N.Korea's. They care a bit for their int'l image, but keeping themselves in power is paramount. The NLD is a asking for a few easy-to-comply-with conditions of the junta. The junta knows that participation by NLD in upcoming elections would add legitimacy to the process. However, the junta is out to please no one but itself, so it will easily turn down the request. Indeed, it will likely not even have the courtesy to acknowledge the request.

China is also more content with a non-participating NLD. The NLD won't kowtow as completely to Chinese controllers as the junta. Plus, the Chinese are already in cahoots with the junta, so they're thinking, "why change a good thing?" or put another way; "don't change horses in the middle of a stream."

[sabaijai]

Add Laos and Vietnam to the lists of governments who are quite happy with the status quo in Myanmar.

[DragonQuest]

I just got back from Burma and some hotel guy threatened me, he told me this was not a demoracy and that I cannot leave burma. Because he wanted to charge me 5 dollars extra for bringing a visitor to my room..... He ruined my vacation so Im never going back, few days later I boarded the plane with no problems.

[churchill]

Burma frees Suu Kyi's doctor

The Burmese junta has released the doctor of Aung San Suu Kyi, his family said, almost two weeks after he was detained in relation to an incident in which a US man swam to the democracy icon's house.

Tin Myo Win was arrested on May 7 as he tried to give medical care to Aung San Suu Kyi following the bizarre visit by the American, which has since led to the opposition leader being charged with breaching her house arrest.

"He was released from detention last night (Saturday) at about 7:00 pm. According to him his health situation is good," one of Tin Myo Win's family members said, asking not to be identified.

http://www.bangkokpost.com/breakingnews/14...-suu-kyi-family
-- Bangkok Post 16/05/09

[Patong Bob]

Can we have some different subject titles in the Myanmar forum. One is not enough.

Also I walked past the Daw's home in University Avenue some years ago. Is there really a lake there ? Or didn't I notice it ?

There doesn't seem to be on Google Earth.

[churchill]

Patong Bob, on 2009-05-17 16:20:18, said:

Can we have some different subject titles in the Myanmar forum. One is not enough.

Also I walked past the Daw's home in University Avenue some years ago. Is there really a lake there ? Or didn't I notice it ?

There doesn't seem to be on Google Earth.

"Can we have some different subject titles in the Myanmar forum. One is not enough"

Agreed

Edited by churchill, 2009-05-17 17:24:44.

[brahmburgers]

a bit off topic, sorry, but I was in Burma 8 years ago, at a city called Mektila in the central part of the country.

There was a large lake there. I had a rented bicycle, and wanted to cycle around the lake. Unfortunately, there was a military base along one part. So I quietly walked my bike across a grassy area, and then found myself bicycling willy nilly throughout every part of the military base. I was thinking, 'wow, what it I was a spy, I could garner all kinds of stuff here.' They had a bowling alley, some old tanks, some big estates up on hills. I did get stopped, however, and some officers wanted to detain me. Luckily, I had a photocopy of my US passport. They told me to cycle to the entry gate and report to the guard house there. I cycled to the gate, but didn't stop - indeed I sped up. The guard shouted and pointed his rifle in my direction. I sped off and we never heard from each other again. Maybe I'm on some list somewhere there, on a 1979 hand crank computer with vacuum tubes.