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[Mark Wolfe]

What about the big cop from the mainland? I thought he had taken this into his realm. What about this calling card you have of his?
I don't know what reason you have for staying where you do, but having been around the southeast Asian block a few times myself, I'd examine whether it is worth it to continue pursuing this. Even if you win, will the mental and emotional quality of life become what you would wish? Is there a reasonable expectation that this will ever be resolved to your satisfaction?
As for selling your property, you have certainly posted enough compelling material to dissuade nearly any buyer from even considering a purchase at any price.
If you are in business, there are many other locations in Samui and Phangan and Koh Tao. Or in Malaysia or the Philippines for example.
Although like you, I have a natural instinct to fight for the principle of an issue, but at some point you need to get away from it all, reflect on what life is really worth for your family and the impact of this on the kids, and think about whether you can be bigger than all this -- I mean, the squatters are ignorant losers, the police are the same and any attempt to alter this may only have a slightly better chance of success as creating a cubical sphere.
In the end, wherever you go, the squatters will still be ignorant pigs and you will still have acted, in the words of the I Ching, as "the superior man."
M

[bbcsamui]

Mark Wolfe, on 2007-11-25 10:11:57, said:

What about the big cop from the mainland? I thought he had taken this into his realm. What about this calling card you have of his?
I don't know what reason you have for staying where you do, but having been around the southeast Asian block a few times myself, I'd examine whether it is worth it to continue pursuing this. Even if you win, will the mental and emotional quality of life become what you would wish? Is there a reasonable expectation that this will ever be resolved to your satisfaction?
As for selling your property, you have certainly posted enough compelling material to dissuade nearly any buyer from even considering a purchase at any price.
If you are in business, there are many other locations in Samui and Phangan and Koh Tao. Or in Malaysia or the Philippines for example.
Although like you, I have a natural instinct to fight for the principle of an issue, but at some point you need to get away from it all, reflect on what life is really worth for your family and the impact of this on the kids, and think about whether you can be bigger than all this -- I mean, the squatters are ignorant losers, the police are the same and any attempt to alter this may only have a slightly better chance of success as creating a cubical sphere.
In the end, wherever you go, the squatters will still be ignorant pigs and you will still have acted, in the words of the I Ching, as "the superior man."
M

Mark, we cannot go.  The land is owned by the children and is their inheritance, it is quite a valuable piece of land, hard to sell at the moment due to the general slowdown and also because of the neigbours.  The business is generally doing Ok even in the so-called downturn. I could go back to work in the corporate world but don't want to leave the family alone here so we would have to go somewhere else.  Our major assets are tied up in Samui so we are essentially stuck. Even if this was not the case, I am not prepared to lose this battle just yet.  I feel we are getting progress and will get out of it unscathed.  But in saying that, there are times when I could sell the lot very cheaply and walk away ... it is definitely an emotional roller coaster.

There was some action yesterday but not sure whether to consider it progress .. that will be clearer in the coming days...

27 November 2007

Not much progress in the last couple of days. Just some more high tides washing away some of the debris and starting to get under the footings buried into the sand.

Khun Watcharapong did come and visit us today. I got a call around 5.30pm to say he was coming in 10 minutes with another police officer to take some update pictures and have a discussion.

3 people arrived at around 6.40pm. Khun Watcharapong, a policeman from Phuket and his wife. The policeman from Phuket was the equivalent level as Khun Watcharapong and was on Samui for a general inspection visit.

Khun Watcharapong did go and inspect the progress, took a couple of photos and then went back to the restaurant to have some wine and dinner with his guests.

10.30pm they left and assured me that there would be some more progress in a couple of days. It was not quite clear what that progress would be, but I am assuming it might be that the Tessaban will issue the paperwork for removal of the dwelling.

While it appears that not much has really happened int he last few days, on the positive side I did manage to do some community service by providing some food and drink for the diligent police in both Samui and Phuket and managed to cloth them by providing some BBC t-shirts.

We will just have to wait and see what happens in the next few days.

[bbcsamui]

4 December 2007

Not much to report at the moment because basically nothing has happened that we are aware of. No more visits from Police or other officials and we cannot see any signs of the squatters moving away - in fact they are still making extensions / modifications over by the sala bar.

An article did come out in the Samui Express which has resulted in some good support from locals, but other than that, life goes on.

I have been told by Suthep to take it quietly as we still have not got our plans approved for revamping the restaurant etc. Although the intention is to redo it and make sure all is within the current laws, he still feels it is appropriate we do not push too hard or else it might be difficult to get them approved.

So, in a bit of a lull at the moment in terms of trying to get some totally illegal squatters off a stolen piece of beach until the totally legal plans get approved on a totally legal piece of land.

Doesn't feel morally right to me, but I will heed the advice for the moment.

[Dingojoe]

bbcsamui, on 2007-12-04 10:43:24, said:

4 December 2007

Not much to report at the moment because basically nothing has happened that we are aware of. No more visits from Police or other officials and we cannot see any signs of the squatters moving away - in fact they are still making extensions / modifications over by the sala bar.

An article did come out in the Samui Express which has resulted in some good support from locals, but other than that, life goes on.

I have been told by Suthep to take it quietly as we still have not got our plans approved for revamping the restaurant etc. Although the intention is to redo it and make sure all is within the current laws, he still feels it is appropriate we do not push too hard or else it might be difficult to get them approved.

So, in a bit of a lull at the moment in terms of trying to get some totally illegal squatters off a stolen piece of beach until the totally legal plans get approved on a totally legal piece of land.

Doesn't feel morally right to me, but I will heed the advice for the moment.

Mark, Suthep is 100% right, let it cool a bit, Suthep is Thai and a Laywer and an ex Cop.
let it cool a bit, things will work out maybe not to your full expectations but they will work out.
You cant let them loose too much face too quick.

[bbcsamui]

Dingojoe, on 2007-12-05 02:12:05, said:

Mark, Suthep is 100% right, let it cool a bit, Suthep is Thai and a Laywer and an ex Cop.
let it cool a bit, things will work out maybe not to your full expectations but they will work out.
You cant let them loose too much face too quick.

I am taking it quietly as it also means less stress on us, but they are making it hard at times.  

Papa came over and talked with Aree our gardener yesterday evening.  He was asking why the farang had stopped talking at them and stopped taking pictures.  Papa said that they had no plans to move and that in fact they were going to open a restaurant on the site in the high season.  He told Aree that I should try to save money and turn off the spotlight on the beach at night (I have a light out the front of our house for security purposes.  This is not necessarily the squatters, just that there are a few people walking out on the beach at night as they go fishing in the shallow water).  He said I need to save money as I am not going to make much because I have too many staff and expenses.  He said his new restaurant is going to make lots of money because they will use family to staff it (and obviously they dont pay rent or anything for the land).

I am not looking forward to all of the extra waste from the restaurant going out onto the beach and will certainly start taking pictures again soon.

Since it is the Kings Birthday we are going to do the usual thing and get the staff cleaning up the beach area and will even clean up some of their rubbish for them.  If we try to keep it clean, then maybe, just maybe, they might try to do so as well.

I am not sure whether to laugh at Papa's fighting and arrogant words or get angry.  At the moment we are focusing on our own thing and trying not to get more angry, so are just laughing it off (but there is always the thought in the back of our mind that we may be here in 5 years still trying to get them off the beach ... which leaves us with not so happy feelings and a bit of tension in the household).

[Lite Beer]

It does sound as if they are going nowhere.
Personally I could not live the way you are living. I would have either lost my temper with them or cut my losses and moved away.
Hopefully you are being more sensible than I would be. Good Luck.

[beamer]

Dont come down to Papa's level !  u probley wind him up when you stalk him with the camera. So not having you stalk and bark at him recently is probley making him more worried . Let the Authorities take thier action in thier own bureacratic process

U owe it to your kids to be level headed  / mature.    

Take a day off and sail ! unwind dude !

[Mark Wolfe]

Quote

The land is owned by the children and is their inheritance

How is that? How can they own the land and at the same time have it be their inheritance?
Whatever the deal is, they don't have to be there to "own" the land.
You really need to think about cutting this out. As I said, is it worth it? Is it fair to the kids?
I am guessing (correct me if I am wrong) that you had a good job before coming to Thailand, did come, fell for a local, packed in the "corporate" job and the rest is history. I can't believe you have endured five years of this shite. I'm surprised you don't have an ulcer...and is this the Samui life you envisioned from the start?

If it doesn't resolve itself in a month, I'd start thinking exit strategies. Maybe it's time to kick-start that old profession again....

Edited by Mark Wolfe, 2007-12-05 17:00:32.

[bbcsamui]

Mark Wolfe, on 2007-12-05 16:59:40, said:

Quote

The land is owned by the children and is their inheritance

How is that? How can they own the land and at the same time have it be their inheritance?
Whatever the deal is, they don't have to be there to "own" the land.
You really need to think about cutting this out. As I said, is it worth it? Is it fair to the kids?
I am guessing (correct me if I am wrong) that you had a good job before coming to Thailand, did come, fell for a local, packed in the "corporate" job and the rest is history. I can't believe you have endured five years of this shite. I'm surprised you don't have an ulcer...and is this the Samui life you envisioned from the start?

If it doesn't resolve itself in a month, I'd start thinking exit strategies. Maybe it's time to kick-start that old profession again....

I came to Samui to get out of a hectic Singapore based corporate life where I spent 28 days a month traveling all over the world London, San Francisco, Sydney, Tokyo, Seoul.... 8 years, 2 million air miles , 2 divorces later I "settled in Samui".  I still do consulting but in this IT world, I can do most of it from Samui and very rarely need to get out.  The problem is that the businesses that require the hands on approach are the Samui ones.

You are right in that we should consider leaving, but we feel that if we are not here pushing it then they will still be here when we come back and probably have more strength ... so after years of softly softly we are gradually ramping up.  We believe we can endure it, because of the great support we are getting from all aspects, plus we are legally and morally right.

I agree with beamer, in that I think Papa is worried it has gone quiet ... we may be quiet, but we are still working the strings as much as possible.    I also know that if I put too much pressure on officials then it will either upset them or cost me money so leaving things to go through the motions (sorry about the pun but I did see some waste go onto the beach today) in its own time. Sometimes a pause in proceedings helps gather the troops.

I doubt they will be gone in a month, but at least I hope there is some general impetus building up over that time and maybe after a successful high season we can have some clearing of the beach.

[kevbap]

if you need to get away for a little while, whilst all this is going on, dont hesitate to call me to look after your place again. i think we worked well last time! you know my number.
Good luck, mate.

[bbcsamui]

kevbap, on 2007-12-06 21:53:24, said:

if you need to get away for a little while, whilst all this is going on, dont hesitate to call me to look after your place again. i think we worked well last time! you know my number.
Good luck, mate.

Kevbap, thanks for the offer.  However I have no plans to go anywhere as I know that if I am not being crazy taking photos and yelling at the builders, they will build some more extensions.  If I go away, they might add another room, more balcony out over the sea or perhaps even another toilet to put their sewerage onto the beach.  So at the moment, I will endure.


I did ask Dim yesterday for the money she promised to pay for Annas room to be repaired and she said she could not afford it, so it looks like that line of questioning has reached its expected conclusion.  They had enough money to build onto the wall, they had enough money to demolish the wall when asked by the police, they had enough money to then build just 50cm away, but not enough money to pay me for repairs ... obviously they expect me to forget about it ... well I won't.

We'll clear the beach tomorrow and take away some rubbish, including some rather large bits of concrete, some scraps of wood and some plastic pipe all making the crown beach look rather messy.  I have arranged for a truck to some around in the morning, so if you want to come around for a working bee, please feel free to do so.

[Khun Jean]

Bulldozer time is approaching rapidly.

[bruceboy]

Amazing story! Please keep us posted and good luck.

[Mark Wolfe]

Since the land doesn't belong to the squatters, why not take the rubbish from the beach and dump it in the middle of where they are? I see no reason you should pay to haul it away.

"Oh, I'm sorry. I thought this garbage belonged to you...."

[highdiver]

Hey BBC.
hang in there. and play the game the thai way.
advise the poo yai ban wit that the the squatters are not obiding to the decision that was reached causing him to loose face as a poo yai ban. that should get things a little shake.
the Poo yai ban is concerned about his reputation more then he is concernd about your problem.

[bbcsamui]

Mark Wolfe, on 2007-12-08 10:34:26, said:

Since the land doesn't belong to the squatters, why not take the rubbish from the beach and dump it in the middle of where they are? I see no reason you should pay to haul it away.

"Oh, I'm sorry. I thought this garbage belonged to you...."

We did clean the beach this morning and give them some of their "possessions" back, but took a full truckload away to the rubbish tip.  Too hot and tired now, but will put some pictures on the web page plus some comment on the interesting interaction we had with them later in the day.

[bbcsamui]

bbcsamui, on 2007-12-08 13:42:52, said:

Mark Wolfe, on 2007-12-08 10:34:26, said:

Since the land doesn't belong to the squatters, why not take the rubbish from the beach and dump it in the middle of where they are? I see no reason you should pay to haul it away.

"Oh, I'm sorry. I thought this garbage belonged to you...."

We did clean the beach this morning and give them some of their "possessions" back, but took a full truckload away to the rubbish tip. Too hot and tired now, but will put some pictures on the web page plus some comment on the interesting interaction we had with them later in the day.

The info and photos are here ...

Beach Cleaning

We did manage to take away a full truckload in 3 hours or so...



I just wonder how many truckloads to take away all of their rubbish ... but my wife told me again today, that I should not think like that, I have to remember they are from Samui and might never go... I cannot bear to think about that...

Anyway it did feel good to be out in the sun doing some labour and making the beach look a little bit better.

[ClaudeFeller]

I dont believe this "puujay baan loose face" talking anymore.
Nobody cares about you and the squatters anymore. It is your private fight with them, you sould feel free to do what has to be done. Really, time for a bulldozer!

[Khun Jean]

The softy softy approach is what makes them so sure of themselves.
Thais like to know there place in society. Time to make that clear in which part of society they belong by taking control.
Control means, removing anything that is on your own land or to close to your land as stipulated in the law.
Once that is done, respect will be gained and chance of getting this solved will be a lot bigger.
The small bar is probably not the problem, it might even bring in more customers, but a house with bedrooms is too much.
And dumping sewage and garbage on the beach is just criminal.

[highdiver]

ClaudeFeller, on 2007-12-08 21:20:29, said:

I dont believe this "puujay baan loose face" talking anymore.
Nobody cares about you and the squatters anymore. It is your private fight with them, you sould feel free to do what has to be done. Really, time for a bulldozer!

I beg to differ ..
if it was BBC land then i would agree with you... however this is not the case they are not on his land and he has no rights over the public land.
As it is not his land it is not his duty to be the law and remove squatters from public land. this is the goverments duty. and BBC has the right as a good residence concerend with law and order to complain and advise the goverment that...they are squating on public land, ileagaly consructing on it and dumping litter and suage on the public beach.
he does not have the right or any excuse to use force to remove squatters from public land.

once a govement agency such as the ta saban, na ampur or poa lodge a formal complaint with the police then the police will arrest the sqautters and site them for illeagal construction on public land. they will be let out on bail and the case will go to court and the judge will penalise them and order them to remove the construction. and this can take a realy long time...as it does by the way in many western countries where squatters are a problem not only on public but in many cases on private property.

I totaly understand the frustration of BBC having those squatters demolish his beautifull beach front and blocking his views. but as long as they are not on his property there is nothing he can realy do apart from complaining to the goverment. and if he has his lawyer do that then he stands a beter chance.

Edited by highdiver, 2007-12-09 12:42:41.

[ClaudeFeller]

Highdiver,

I know these shows from high ranking cop or tessaban or puujay-somewhere: They listen, they promise to help and they do nothing.
Did you ever count how many illegal buildings we have on Samui?? Nobody cares...

[bbcsamui]

8 December update...

Later in the evening...

Since Dim had refused to pay to fix Anna's room, we thought it appropriate to go and ask for her to contribute to the cleaning up of her mess, by paying for the truck at THB500 an hour. So Aree went over in the evening to ask her for THB1,500 - and she paid up. This is the first concession of any sort, that we have had in 6 years of discussion. I wanted to get the money and frame it, but Aree had already given it to the truck company.

And, also I found out about a couple of things that happened during the day.

Aree, told me that while we were piling the rubbish on their balcony the grandmother had come and told Aree to get out or she would call the police. He reminded her that this was the crown land and that we were just giving them back their own rubbish ... and the he was not scared - go and call the police. Well, this flustered her and she quickly exited to her house across the road. We never saw any police.

We found out that while I had been discussing with the elder son Ng, removal of the septic tanks on the beach, they had called Poo Yai Wit complaining "the farang is threatening to break our septic tanks". Poo Yai Wit said to them that the farang can go ahead as they should not be on the beach anyway. How do we know this? Because Poo Yai Wit came and had a meeting with us on Sunday (see below).

9 December 2007

I didn't get to see the Mayweather / Hatton fight but even though it was billed as the fight of the century, I was having my own little battle and Poo Yai Wit had called to say he would come and see us around 10.30 am ... eventually arriving about 10.50am.

It was a good meeting with lots of light discussion. I will try and put it in bullet points below:

Poo Yai Wit told us that he has actually had many complaints from locals over the last 2 years about the squatters - about the fact they were stealing the beach, about the fact they put their waste onto the beach, about the fact that they had a girlie bar which they rented out right next to the temple gates etc ... But he had not followed up because he was busy and thought it was too small - he said he truly did not realise the extent of their greed until he came on request of the police and Tessaban and looked at the house from around the back.  He said that he had actually had a complaint from the Mayor 2 years ago about someone building on the beach next to Big Buddha and thought it was us.  He did come and have a look at our place but saw nothing to be concerned about.

Poo Yai Wit explained that he had told the squatters about the agreed compromise, but he had since seen that they were in fact continuing to build and not looking to reduce the size of their development. He stated that they had no respect for his decision so is going to chase up the Tessaban this week to get them to issue the eviction documents.

He's not sure of the timings but expects them to be issued this week, giving the squatters a couple of weeks (maybe a month) to vacate.

Poo Yai Wit, said that I should not go anywhere near them and talk with them as I do not need to. It is in the hands of the Tessaban and himself. He stated, that if the squatters do not follow the rulings of the Tessaban then they will end up in Jail. He stated they already have the trespass charge against them, so need to be careful what they do.

I explained that I had tried to keep away, that it was Papa who came and asked Aree why I was quiet and that they had intended to put a restaurant on the site. Aree also told Poo Yai Wit that they mentioned that they wanted to lease the site to put the restaurant there. Poo Yai Wit actually laughed at that. He said if it was possible to rent the Kings beach then he would have done it himself in Choeng Mon and made a fortune. There is no way they can rent the beach. (I always felt this was the case, but it was reassuring to hear it).

Poo Yai wit told us about the phone call yesterday where they complained to him that the farang was wanting to demolish the septic tanks on the beach. He told us he said that the farang can go ahead as they should not be there anyway. (It was agreed with Ng that they would stay one more week while they worked out new plumbing arrangements)

Poo Yai Wit stated that he knew about their land across the road, he knew about their house in Plai Leam, he knew the children had good jobs etc. He stated that in not agreeing to the compromise that was previously proposed, they were just being too selfish ... and then he started to go on about other selfish and greedy people in his area that he has to deal with, but I will not speak about them here.

It seems like it is moving in a positive direction but I will not hold my breath (other than when I am walking past the smelly septic tanks). Too many times I have seen positive steps get reversed or replaced with something more horrific. We will just have to wait and see.

[highdiver]

BBC
its nice to hear that the Pooyai has come to follow up on this case.
As i posted before the fact that they made the Pooyai loose face by no respect for his decision is a huge motivation for the Pooyai to step in and reslove this isuue.
knowing Poo yai wit i am sure he will be very swift in lodging a formal complaint to tae saban.
this is the Thai way it may take longer then you expect but it will be taken care of.

[kash]

any news?

[bbcsamui]

kash, on 2007-12-14 01:21:11, said:

any news?

Nothing to report.  No construction, no demolition, no sight of any officials... at least no construction of a restaurant that we can see.

We are just assuming it will take time for the officials to get through the paperwork and they will be busy with election stuff and other more important issues.  

We feel confident that Poo Yai Wit will push it through.  We feel he honestly felt that the squatters lied to him and showed disrespect etc.  I am heeding his advice and keeping my mouth shut and trying not to go near them.  We have cancelled the beach cleanup and septic tank demolition this Saturday on the basis we need to give the officials a chance.  We realise it has taken a long time to get where it is, but truly feel that the officials have taken it on board, so we must let them do their job in their own way.

If nothing has happened after New Year, then we shall need to step in again. Another few weeks is not going to make much difference in the scheme of things.



We have made the decision that we are not going to build another house on the land.  This decision is based on the fact it will be a better utilisation of the site to build a much better restaurant and secondly we are unsure if we can live here anymore anyway.  So the idea is that we will get some plans done that have the restaurant going where the house is, using the beach and have a design that can be built whether the squatters are there or not.

Even though it seems to be moving positively, we are still not convinced it will actually be resolved quickly as we have seen with the fishing squatters on the other side that even though there were court orders for them to leave, they took more than 2 years to vacate ... and still have not all gone.

We are sick of being disappointed by the process, so are taking a conservative view to it all and hopefully that way we might get a positive surprise.