I think this can be practiced in two parts.
Part one is in your daily life. If you don't yet believe it, then follow all reasonings given by others to try to 'understand' it. Then keep saying any of the mantra you so choose to remind yourself that nothing is permanent. Some of these sayings are as posted above.
Part two is through meditation. When you practice meditation to a point, you will experience the detachment from your flesh body. After that point when you revisit your understanding there is no doubt and you will realize that what you consider as 'your body', 'your spouse', etc. are not real. It is an illusion.
Now practice both part one and part two. You will be more detached through practice.
It will be easier then to 'lose' your self. More and more refined understanding and 'losing' can happen as taught elsewhere.
Good things can happen to you because of that.
It has been said that in this regards, children and 'uneducated' persons can accomplish it more easily. An educated person who learn to use so much 'reasoning' would keep questioning this and that. Most will die while still reasoning, but don't accomplish this goal.
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Anatta - How Can We Unattach From The Concept Of SelfWhen we have an identity in the world
Started by seonai, 2007-11-30 02:24
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46 replies to this topic
#27
Platinum Member Posted 2007-12-11 13:47:25
Well it has been quoted already : "Show me this "me", this "I"!
If there is no "me" and "i", who or better what is going to meditate then?  and about what? And concerning the chicken and all it's surrounding circumstances: the chicken is a chicken, the chicken is a chicken, the chicken is a chicken, the chicken is a chicken, the chicken is a chicken, the chicken is a chicken, the chicken is a chicken... And if one starts to question these things it's like this Zen tale goes about the Mountain and the young adept.... First the Mountain is a Mountain........ then the Mountain isn't a........... then it's a Mountain again.... ahhhh well.... ever heard the clap of a single hand? Edited by Samuian, 2007-12-11 13:50:30. #28
Senior Member Posted 2007-12-11 18:45:40
Brief from http://mahamakuta.in...0101/en-one.htm
What is the concept of Anatta (non-self), how can our understanding of this concept direct us in our daily life? Anatta or non-self is an essential tenet in Buddhism. It can be realised through insight. The concept of Anatta or non-self may be classified into two levels: At the lower level, Anatta or non-self can be understood through rational thinking and we can use such understanding in our moral development. If we remain mindful of non-self, it will help us to be free from craving, conceit, and the idea of self. In this way we can rid ourselves of attachments and become unselfish. At the higher level, Anatta or non-self is the truth of all that is, of all that exists. The truth of all that is not what we perceive through our ordinary senses unless we have attained enlightenment. When one attains full enlightenment, one's attachment and craving absolutely stop. The following principles are essential to the application of the Anatta concept to our daily life: 1. Do nothing only for one's own benefit or to satisfy only one's own needs and wants. 2. Do everything to decrease one's self-importance. 3. Do not hold one's own ideas above the views of others. In our interactions with others we should be open-minded and perceive things according to the principle of cause and effect rather than according to our own desire. However, attachment to non-attachment is still a kind of attachment which is also to be avoided. Along the middle path, detachment needs to be accompanied by wisdom. #29
Senior Member Posted 2007-12-12 02:15:46
So you and me, we are just like the chicken! We think we are real and we feel real but we really don't exist! The body don't exist and the mind don't exist. Nothing exist! But I feel real! And when I poke myself real hard, I feel pain! Still I know I really don't exist! Nothing exist! I think you'll find that although no chicken exists inside your TV there was in fact a chicken in existance at the time and place that they filmed it. I'm sure the film crew had all the same reactions to it that you did, probably more intense. Interesting analogy, and worth pondering, but I don't really reach the same conclusion as you. the chicken is real, but our perception of the chicken is not. I was trying to keep it simple but I thought that someone will bring this up! What if the chicken wasn't a film of a real roasted chicken but created using computer graphics? So the chicken is pixels or dots of colour on a computer screen. It only becomes a chicken when the eye see the colours and dots and the brain converts this information and interprets it as a chicken. Imagine a disease attacked your nerves and you cannot feel anything. When you put your hand on a hot stove, you will not feel the heat or the pain. Now if you cannot feel the heat do it mean there is no heat? When you do not feel the pain does it mean there is no pain? Off course there is heat but pain is just an interpretation by your brain. Pain and pleasure is just an interpretation by your brain! If the stove is just lukewarm and you came in from the cold, your brain will tell you the warming of your hands is a nice sensation. Hence it becomes pleasure. If the stove was really hot and your hands get burned then your brain tells you its pain! If you can get past your body not being you then the hard part is knowing your mind isn’t you. If you can notice how your mind keep changing and how easily it keeps getting swayed by your moods like a good mood or a bad mood and how it makes you change your decisions then you may think that fickle mind may really not be you at all! Even before I heard of the Buddhist concepts I always told people my mind is not my own. How can it be? Advertisers put so many thoughts in my mind that I buy certain products and do not buy others based on the benefits the advertisers told me about. The newspapers we read causes us to be angry with certain thing and be happy with others. Then I found out the powers that be manipulate what we read and what we don’t read to make us like them and vote for them! Childhood experiences shaped how we think. Teachers, parents, religious groups try to control how we think and feel. When you study your mind and how its keeps changing and how thoughts come and go, you can see that its based on what you have seen and heard. What control of your mind do you really have? Some of the thoughts I have, I have to ask where did these thoughts come from? That’s not me, those are not my thoughts! If you keep looking at your thoughts as a third person you may also think that’s not me. Those are not my thoughts and I am not sure this mind which I think is mine is really mine. Its crunch time when you think your mind isn’t yours and your body isn‘t yours. I don’t have to be so protective about me and mine anymore! Its like driving a rental car or living in a council house. You don’t worry too much about silly and insignificant things anymore about your robot body and mind. Some people don’t wash their rental cars or upkeep their council house but I hope you clean your robot body and also maintain it reasonably well! I also loved the words of a song that says - this is not my beautiful home and this is not my beautiful wife. (I always repeat it and I am not even married!) If it is true that nothing exists! What are we gonna do? We can give way to people, we can be a bit more patient, we can even let people win the arguments. We lose nothing, we give nothing cos there is nothing and we are nothing. But you sure make people happy when you do it!  I think there is also something about ending suffering when you know you are not you and so you don't have to feel sad or angry when you lose something that is not yours and don't feel slighted when someone insults you and you don’t feel disappointed or angry when you don’t get something you really want or feel bad getting something your really don’t want like a mother in law. But this is a topic other people know a lot more than me so I will leave it to them but I think ending suffering seems to be a benefit of the non self concept. Again I could be wrong, so please just add or correct as needed! PS that mother in law comment just came out but it wasn't from the real me if you know what I mean. Too many sitcoms put that awful comment in the mind thats is not mine! 
#30
Senior Member Posted 2007-12-12 02:46:29
So you and me, we are just like the chicken! We think we are real and we feel real but we really don't exist! The body don't exist and the mind don't exist. Nothing exist! But I feel real! And when I poke myself real hard, I feel pain! Still I know I really don't exist! Nothing exist! I think you'll find that although no chicken exists inside your TV there was in fact a chicken in existance at the time and place that they filmed it. I'm sure the film crew had all the same reactions to it that you did, probably more intense. Interesting analogy, and worth pondering, but I don't really reach the same conclusion as you. the chicken is real, but our perception of the chicken is not. Maybe a better example would be an ink blot test? The one where you show someone an ink blot and a hungry person goes - that a roast chicken that is! This reminds me of a funny story you may have heard. A doctor shows his patient an ink blot and the guy goes that a naked lady. The doctor shows another and the patient goes that’s another naked lady. To all ten ink blots the patient goes they are all naked ladies. The doctor goes you are a pervert! And the patient replies Me a pervert? You are the one showing me all them dirty pictures! So you and I are not like the chicken but the naked lady? #31
Senior Member Posted 2007-12-12 15:49:32
I'm a bit rusty and would appreciate the members of this forum discussing this topic as, when I studied Buddhism many years ago I always had trouble understanding how to unattach from my 'self'. Especially when the world/society/friends etc see s as a 'self' with specific characteristics - Seonai who likes Italian food, doesn't like violence and wears outlandish clothes for example as far as ive seen it addressed, it seems that one shud merely remind oneself that the self is impermanent and leave it at that. when the time comes, the truth of this will become evident and the problem will go away. i realize this may conflict with other advice to believe nothing that cannot be verified for oneself, so i guess the best thing to do is remember that it is said by some that this is true and if it is true, it will be seen as true at some future time and if it isnt , this too will be seen as true at some time. either way, the truth will be seen and the question will become irrelevant. so for now, i plan on acting as if anatta is in fact tru and if i find out i am mistaken, then i will be less mistaken. #32
Senior Member Posted 2007-12-12 15:55:01
So what do you guys say the self is? Is it a mental codification - a summary that is accorded a status apart from its components- composed of all those things that the mind relates to the satisfaction of its own needs? Do animals have a 'self'? Do plants? Do amoeba? And what happens to the self when the amoeba splits in two? Does each of the 'offspring' have a self? And what happened then, to the original's 'self'? what anatta means to me is there is no PERMANENT UNCHANGING self. #33
Platinum Member Posted 2007-12-12 15:57:58
...got an answer these days I didn't even had a question yet for it...
#34
Senior Member Posted 2007-12-13 02:24:55
I'm a bit rusty and would appreciate the members of this forum discussing this topic as, when I studied Buddhism many years ago I always had trouble understanding how to unattach from my 'self'. Especially when the world/society/friends etc see s as a 'self' with specific characteristics - Seonai who likes Italian food, doesn't like violence and wears outlandish clothes for example Seonai the Buddha repeated one teaching again and again. It's a practise for becoming cognizant of the parts that we are made up of physical and mental and addresses your request directly. I used it as my main practise for quite some time and it works. It's now called the Satipatthana Sutta.........something like the "establishment of (the four foundations of) mindfulness".....and I think it's in the Digha Nikaya. There's a good book with the text and interpretation whose author escapes me now late at night but it's quite understandable anyway I'm sure you'll find texts on the net choose a readable one. #35
Platinum Member Posted 2008-01-06 05:38:23
Sleepy John,
I read the Satipatthana Sutta and i have read it many years ago actually and I see it's significance but it sort of scares me in a sense... it scares me because I feel that if I can totally understand it, I will completely change I guess I'm still clinging to the 'me' aspect Does anyone else feel that? #36
Right Honourable Member Posted 2008-01-06 13:37:40
I guess I'm still clinging to the 'me' aspect Does anyone else feel that? On the more mundane level, any serious practice of Dhamma results in substantial changes to our personality. It's not like, say, Power Yoga, where a competitive businessman can recharge his batteries and then go back and kick ass at the office. The same businessman practising Dhamma (correctly!) would end up changing his job. #37
Thaitanium Member Posted 2008-01-06 15:21:11
Sleepy John, I read the Satipatthana Sutta and i have read it many years ago actually and I see it's significance but it sort of scares me in a sense... it scares me because I feel that if I can totally understand it, I will completely change I guess I'm still clinging to the 'me' aspect Does anyone else feel that? I think anyone who practices dhamma eventually faces this fear. At first the task of overcoming the idea of self seems impossible, and then when we actually see, through practice/right view, that it's entirely possible to see through the fiction, emotional reactions such as fear, regret, etc, crop up naturally. It's like seeing a mountain in front of you and thinking there's no way you can move it. But you study and practice dhamma anyway and then one day, you suddenly realise you've picked up that mountain and are holding it over your head. What to do now? If you let go, the mountain will crush you. But once you've picked it up, it's very difficult to put down. I expressed a similar fear to dhamma teacher Joseph Goldstein during a retreat once. He chuckled and said, 'That's dhamma for you. Once it has its hooks in you, it'll drag you kicking and screaming all the way to nibbana if you let it.' Of course it's not 'you' or 'I' accomplishing any of this. It's sati. When sati comes to the fore, there is no self, no fear and no regret. #38
Titanium Member Posted 2008-01-06 15:33:10
Sleepy John, I read the Satipatthana Sutta and i have read it many years ago actually and I see it's significance but it sort of scares me in a sense... it scares me because I feel that if I can totally understand it, I will completely change I guess I'm still clinging to the 'me' aspect Does anyone else feel that? Chownah #39
Platinum Member Posted 2008-01-07 04:38:35
Camerata, Sabaijai and Chownah, thanks!! Yes that's the feeling. When I was practising before (about 13 years ago now) I reached a point where I nearly ordained as a nun in Bkk because I wanted to be away from wordly things and continue my practise. Then I married and had a child - something I said I'd never do and afterwards felt it was 'Gam' taking place naturally. I had more wordly stuff to learn.
I feel in my life, once, I have been near that moment of seeing something much higher than 'existance' and that I ran from it because it frightened me - that was purely via Theravadin style meditation Quick edit to mention that I am a great follower of the Kalama Sutta which says that 'Even if I (the Buddha) speaks of something you do not have to believe it until you have actual experience of it yourself and know it to be true' - ie 'blind' faith is not Buddhist, it must be experienced by the individual For example, I think (not belive) that my experience with meditation and my fear of 'letting go' comes from past life experience in one way or another but I have no logic to support this information #40
Platinum Member Posted 2008-01-07 04:46:33
camerata I love the bit about the power yoga and the business man studying Dhamma and SabaiJai I love this 'If you let go, the mountain will crush you. But once you've picked it up, it's very difficult to put down.'
#41
Senior Member Posted 2008-01-07 19:06:47
I don’t know about everyone else here but I cannot wait to get rid of my alter ego James!
James really isn’t me! #42
Senior Member Posted 2008-01-08 13:54:01
I'm a bit rusty and would appreciate the members of this forum discussing this topic as, when I studied Buddhism many years ago I always had trouble understanding how to unattach from my 'self'. Especially when the world/society/friends etc see s as a 'self' with specific characteristics - Seonai who likes Italian food, doesn't like violence and wears outlandish clothes for example your "self" is in a constant state of change. you are not the same person u were a second ago due to things that happened internally and externally so the self you were supposeedly attached to no longer exists #43
Senior Member Posted 2008-01-11 10:27:02
I always get confused when I read there is no permanent unchanging self.
So I think there is something there but it is something that keeps changing - like the weather. I think it might be more correct to say there is nothing, there is no self. Although we feel solid and real, we actually do not exist. “We” are just illusions. We don’t exist and nothing exist. If we knew that the “self” does not exist, then maybe it might be easier not wanting to be attached to nothing. #44
Senior Member Posted 2008-01-11 11:01:20
we exist at any moment in time but we do not possess a permanent unchanging essence or self. our existance can be likened to a candle flame. the gasses being burned at any instant are not the same as the ones that burned an instant ago but are the direct result of those gases that burned before. the flame looks to be the same flame observed previously but is not in fact the same flame! so our existance as a sentient being. we look the same as an instant ago but we are not. we are however created by the existance of an instant ago.
#45
Right Honourable Member Posted 2008-01-11 13:42:55
I always had trouble understanding how to unattach from my 'self'. Especially when the world/society/friends etc see s as a 'self' with specific characteristics - Seonai who likes Italian food, doesn't like violence and wears outlandish clothes for example Something else that is emphasized especially by Ajahn Sumedho is that our memories and dreams (for the future) tend to strengthen the sense of a continuous self. But memories aren't real and dreams aren't real. You can't recreate with 100% accuracy an event that happened in the past, and in any case it is just a visual thought rather than the actual event. Thoughts about the future are just fantasies because the future will never happen the way we think it will. Hence the practice of staying in the present moment, through meditation or daily mindfulness. I think the things we do to enhance the self - like wearing outlandish clothes perhaps - need to be reduced as much as possible. At least that's what I try to do. #46
Senior Member Posted 2008-01-11 14:17:08
I really don’t mean to be difficult or obtuse but the concept of outlandish clothes is just a concept of your mind!
What is outlandish is particular to your mind and maybe normal to another person. What maybe outlandish to you one minute might be ok another minute when you thought about it again. A man wearing a bright orange dress maybe outlandish to you but maybe perfectly normal to a monk. 
Edited by jamesc2000, 2008-01-11 14:18:34. #47
Right Honourable Member Posted 2008-01-11 20:12:34
I always get confused when I read there is no permanent unchanging self. We can see quite easily that when our favourite camera breaks down, that it didn't have a permanent existence as a camera, and this causes us unhappiness because it's not what we wanted. Our spouse's looks will deteriorate over the years and this will cause us some unhappiness. We ourselves will change physically and mentally and this will cause us suffering too. It's this clinging to the self as a permanent, unchanging entity that causes all the problems. |
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