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[Shah Jahan]

sabaijai, on 2008-05-08 19:48:15, said:

The Pai police chief is being transferred out and is currently awaiting his replacement. No idea whether the transfer is routine or related to the crime.

Somebody with more knowledge can correct me, but I seem to remember the current police chief coming in November 2006 - and since police chiefs have 2 year cycles- that means his routine transfer would be November 2008 - any transfer before that would be for extra-ordinary circumstances.

[jstumbo]

Gaz Chiangmai, on 2008-05-01 15:01:14, said:

Whilst I cannot authoritatively speak for Andrew Drummond, I would hazard a guess that he would be very enamoured with finding someone captured such instances on video (either using a digicam or their mobile phone camera).

My guess would also be that AD would know to whom copies of the video should be passed, both to assist the current court case, and to run an expose on Thai TV and shame the government into locking Sgt Uthai in his own cells until the trial is complete (at least).

Gaz

I am not sure that given this particular officers history and temperament that anyone is suicidal enough to take the chance to video tape him while he is doing this.

[jackspratt]

sabaijai, on 2008-05-08 20:48:15, said:

I just returned from Pai, where I was told Sgt Maj Uthai had indeed passed through town. The police chief reportedly ordered him to return to his inactive post in Soppong to await trial and not show his face in Pai again till the trail was over.

Sgt Maj Uthai appears to be in worse shape than ever, drinking-wise, according to acquaintances of his. If he is indeed carrying a weapon, it's a travesty the police haven't confiscated it. He obviously doesn't have the pistol used the night of the shootings, and as far as anyone knows the only time he's ever fired a weapon outside of target practice was the night he was allegedly provoked by Carly and crew. I suppose finding a replacement in Thailand isn't difficult since police officers buy their own weapons anyway.

The Pai police chief is being transferred out and is currently awaiting his replacement. No idea whether the transfer is routine or related to the crime.

I am sure we are all thankful for the update.

I do find your choice of words interesting - maybe even revealing. I would have thought a more concise and accurate description would have been "the night he shot Carly and crew".

All about emphasis, isn't it

[sabaijai]

Shah Jahan, on 2008-05-08 13:54:15, said:

sabaijai, on 2008-05-08 19:48:15, said:

The Pai police chief is being transferred out and is currently awaiting his replacement. No idea whether the transfer is routine or related to the crime.

Somebody with more knowledge can correct me, but I seem to remember the current police chief coming in November 2006 - and since police chiefs have 2 year cycles- that means his routine transfer would be November 2008 - any transfer before that would be for extra-ordinary circumstances.

The cycles aren't always followed, ie, I've seen a lot of irregularity in movement of police chiefs both in Mae Hong Son and Chiang Mai. So unless you have inside information it's almost impossible to say whether a transfer is punishment, reward or routine.

[Arkady]

I don't know why this forum now gives me the impression I am back at school with prefects strutting about trying to ingratiate themselves with the teachers by threatening draconian punishments for minor infractions of the school rule book that was written by crusty old buffers a generation before for situations that no longer prevail. Maybe just a nightmare and I'll wake up soon.

There doesn't seem to be any more news on the case apart from allegations about the subsequent behaviour of the suspect. I wonder if Carly is still in Thailand.

A friend of mine said he saw a Thai man shot in his Mercedes in Hua Hin by two men on a motorbike a few days ago. He didn't have a clear view but it looked to him as if the guy was unlikely to have survived the volley of shots. Funnily enough the shooting doesn't seem to have been reported anywhere in English or Thai. Perhaps Thai on Thai shootings are too commonplace for the media to bother with or maybe there is black-out on reporting crimes in tourist resorts not involving foreigners for fear of scaring away tourists. That would certainly save the trouble of foreigners having to debate the pros and cons of Thai justice and whether it is still safe to visit the country at all in forums like this.

[sbk]

The murder in Hua Hin has been reported in the Hua Hin forum and was indeed in the Thai news.

As for this current case, it seems that the wheels of justice in Thailand grind even slower than usual.

[JohnPeel]

jackspratt, on 2008-05-08 22:41:51, said:

sabaijai, on 2008-05-08 20:48:15, said:

I just returned from Pai, where I was told Sgt Maj Uthai had indeed passed through town. The police chief reportedly ordered him to return to his inactive post in Soppong to await trial and not show his face in Pai again till the trail was over.

Sgt Maj Uthai appears to be in worse shape than ever, drinking-wise, according to acquaintances of his. If he is indeed carrying a weapon, it's a travesty the police haven't confiscated it. He obviously doesn't have the pistol used the night of the shootings, and as far as anyone knows the only time he's ever fired a weapon outside of target practice was the night he was allegedly provoked by Carly and crew. I suppose finding a replacement in Thailand isn't difficult since police officers buy their own weapons anyway.

The Pai police chief is being transferred out and is currently awaiting his replacement. No idea whether the transfer is routine or related to the crime.

I am sure we are all thankful for the update.

I do find your choice of words interesting - maybe even revealing. I would have thought a more concise and accurate description would have been "the night he shot Carly and crew".

All about emphasis, isn't it

All about peddling the police line But we can live with that.

[sabaijai]

JohnPeel, on 2008-05-09 07:00:01, said:

jackspratt, on 2008-05-08 22:41:51, said:

sabaijai, on 2008-05-08 20:48:15, said:

I just returned from Pai, where I was told Sgt Maj Uthai had indeed passed through town. The police chief reportedly ordered him to return to his inactive post in Soppong to await trial and not show his face in Pai again till the trail was over.

Sgt Maj Uthai appears to be in worse shape than ever, drinking-wise, according to acquaintances of his. If he is indeed carrying a weapon, it's a travesty the police haven't confiscated it. He obviously doesn't have the pistol used the night of the shootings, and as far as anyone knows the only time he's ever fired a weapon outside of target practice was the night he was allegedly provoked by Carly and crew. I suppose finding a replacement in Thailand isn't difficult since police officers buy their own weapons anyway.

The Pai police chief is being transferred out and is currently awaiting his replacement. No idea whether the transfer is routine or related to the crime.

I am sure we are all thankful for the update.

I do find your choice of words interesting - maybe even revealing. I would have thought a more concise and accurate description would have been "the night he shot Carly and crew".

All about emphasis, isn't it

All about peddling the police line But we can live with that.

And the testimony of most witnesses there that night.

[JohnPeel]

sabaijai, on 2008-05-10 06:24:47, said:

JohnPeel, on 2008-05-09 07:00:01, said:

jackspratt, on 2008-05-08 22:41:51, said:

sabaijai, on 2008-05-08 20:48:15, said:

I just returned from Pai, where I was told Sgt Maj Uthai had indeed passed through town. The police chief reportedly ordered him to return to his inactive post in Soppong to await trial and not show his face in Pai again till the trail was over.

Sgt Maj Uthai appears to be in worse shape than ever, drinking-wise, according to acquaintances of his. If he is indeed carrying a weapon, it's a travesty the police haven't confiscated it. He obviously doesn't have the pistol used the night of the shootings, and as far as anyone knows the only time he's ever fired a weapon outside of target practice was the night he was allegedly provoked by Carly and crew. I suppose finding a replacement in Thailand isn't difficult since police officers buy their own weapons anyway.

The Pai police chief is being transferred out and is currently awaiting his replacement. No idea whether the transfer is routine or related to the crime.

I am sure we are all thankful for the update.

I do find your choice of words interesting - maybe even revealing. I would have thought a more concise and accurate description would have been "the night he shot Carly and crew".

All about emphasis, isn't it

All about peddling the police line But we can live with that.

And the testimony of most witnesses there that night.

Here we go again..............and the gun had a hair trigger!

[Shah Jahan]

sabaijai, on 2008-05-10 05:24:47, said:

JohnPeel, on 2008-05-09 07:00:01, said:

jackspratt, on 2008-05-08 22:41:51, said:

sabaijai, on 2008-05-08 20:48:15, said:

I just returned from Pai, where I was told Sgt Maj Uthai had indeed passed through town. The police chief reportedly ordered him to return to his inactive post in Soppong to await trial and not show his face in Pai again till the trail was over.

Sgt Maj Uthai appears to be in worse shape than ever, drinking-wise, according to acquaintances of his. If he is indeed carrying a weapon, it's a travesty the police haven't confiscated it. He obviously doesn't have the pistol used the night of the shootings, and as far as anyone knows the only time he's ever fired a weapon outside of target practice was the night he was allegedly provoked by Carly and crew. I suppose finding a replacement in Thailand isn't difficult since police officers buy their own weapons anyway.

The Pai police chief is being transferred out and is currently awaiting his replacement. No idea whether the transfer is routine or related to the crime.

I am sure we are all thankful for the update.

I do find your choice of words interesting - maybe even revealing. I would have thought a more concise and accurate description would have been "the night he shot Carly and crew".

All about emphasis, isn't it

All about peddling the police line But we can live with that.

And the testimony of most witnesses there that night.

Do you actually beleive what you are saying - or have you been in this place for so long that you have gone locoal
I will politely and firmly disagree with you and question your credibility on this subject.

[sabaijai]

[quote name='Shah Jahan' post='1973638' date='2008-05-10 12:56:46'][quote name='sabaijai' post='1972589' date='2008-05-10 05:24:47'][quote name='JohnPeel' post='1971483' date='2008-05-09 07:00:01'][quote name='jackspratt' post='1970431' date='2008-05-08 22:41:51'][quote name='sabaijai' post='1970245' date='2008-05-08 20:48:15']I just returned from Pai, where I was told Sgt Maj Uthai had indeed passed through town. The police chief reportedly ordered him to return to his inactive post in Soppong to await trial and not show his face in Pai again till the trail was over.

Sgt Maj Uthai appears to be in worse shape than ever, drinking-wise, according to acquaintances of his. If he is indeed carrying a weapon, it's a travesty the police haven't confiscated it. He obviously doesn't have the pistol used the night of the shootings, and as far as anyone knows the only time he's ever fired a weapon outside of target practice was the night he was allegedly provoked by Carly and crew. I suppose finding a replacement in Thailand isn't difficult since police officers buy their own weapons anyway.

The Pai police chief is being transferred out and is currently awaiting his replacement. No idea whether the transfer is routine or related to the crime.[/quote]

I am sure we are all thankful for the update.

I do find your choice of words interesting - maybe even revealing. I would have thought a more concise and accurate description would have been "the night he shot Carly and crew".

All about emphasis, isn't it
[/quote]


All about peddling the police line But we can live with that.
[/quote]

And the testimony of most witnesses there that night.
[/quote]

Do you actually beleive what you are saying - or have you been in this place for so long that you have gone locoal
I will politely and firmly disagree with you and question your credibility on this subject.
[/quote]

It's not a question of believing, but rather talking to eyewitnesses and trying to understand the picture the collective testimony draws. The majority supported Uthai's allegation that Carly struck first. The DSI, for its part, are taking on board only one set of anonymous out-of-town witnesses.

That said there are discrepancies among all the eyewitness reports, probably most of all among Carly's various versions. I don't know whether we'll ever know the truth 100%, but judging from what I've been told, and from my previous acquaintance with both the cop and the victims, I tend to believe the majority witnesses. In case I've not already made it abundantly clear, that set of facts is in no way an 'apology', it's just the apparent reality (no one who wasn't there themselves can claim to know what really went down).

Where's your credibility, Shah? Talk to any witnesses yourself? I didn't think so. Let's stick to the issues at hand rather than ad hominem attacks, ok?

[Shah Jahan]

[quote name='sabaijai' post='1974039' date='2008-05-11 02:54:53'][quote name='Shah Jahan' post='1973638' date='2008-05-10 12:56:46'][quote name='sabaijai' post='1972589' date='2008-05-10 05:24:47'][quote name='JohnPeel' post='1971483' date='2008-05-09 07:00:01'][quote name='jackspratt' post='1970431' date='2008-05-08 22:41:51'][quote name='sabaijai' post='1970245' date='2008-05-08 20:48:15']I just returned from Pai, where I was told Sgt Maj Uthai had indeed passed through town. The police chief reportedly ordered him to return to his inactive post in Soppong to await trial and not show his face in Pai again till the trail was over.

Sgt Maj Uthai appears to be in worse shape than ever, drinking-wise, according to acquaintances of his. If he is indeed carrying a weapon, it's a travesty the police haven't confiscated it. He obviously doesn't have the pistol used the night of the shootings, and as far as anyone knows the only time he's ever fired a weapon outside of target practice was the night he was allegedly provoked by Carly and crew. I suppose finding a replacement in Thailand isn't difficult since police officers buy their own weapons anyway.

The Pai police chief is being transferred out and is currently awaiting his replacement. No idea whether the transfer is routine or related to the crime.[/quote]

I am sure we are all thankful for the update.

I do find your choice of words interesting - maybe even revealing. I would have thought a more concise and accurate description would have been "the night he shot Carly and crew".

All about emphasis, isn't it
[/quote]


All about peddling the police line But we can live with that.
[/quote]

And the testimony of most witnesses there that night.
[/quote]

Do you actually beleive what you are saying - or have you been in this place for so long that you have gone locoal
I will politely and firmly disagree with you and question your credibility on this subject.
[/quote]

It's not a question of believing, but rather talking to eyewitnesses and trying to understand the picture the collective testimony draws. The majority supported Uthai's allegation that Carly struck first. The DSI, for its part, are taking on board only one set of anonymous out-of-town witnesses.

That said there are discrepancies among all the eyewitness reports, probably most of all among Carly's various versions. I don't know whether we'll ever know the truth 100%, but judging from what I've been told, and from my previous acquaintance with both the cop and the victims, I tend to believe the majority witnesses. In case I've not already made it abundantly clear, that set of facts is in no way an 'apology', it's just the apparent reality (no one who wasn't there themselves can claim to know what really went down).

Where's your credibility, Shah? Talk to any witnesses yourself? I didn't think so. Let's stick to the issues at hand rather than ad hominem attacks, ok?
[/quote]

I should tell you that you sound like a thai politician/cop- flapping your arms around and screaming to look at the facts. Where of course the facts have been conveniently shaped to their own devices. I even remember an early point in the case with a TV interview with the chief and he said with a sure face that we cannot rely on speculation and that the forensics will tell the truth in this case. Well this was before he knew the DSI would get involved and he was counting on the fact that there would be NO FORENSICS as usual.

but to your point - we all know what carly was. thats not the point
I had encountered the police offer in question more than a few times and as soon as I heard somebody was shot by a cop - I knew it was him without even having to ask. how did I know this? well if you knew him too like you would claim then you would have known too. I seem to remember him getting drunk and shooting into the air at a reggae festival a few years ago as well. but again thats not the point either.

we can forget about any witnesses at this point because
1- local thais (or even local falang as demonstrated by your behavior) are no reliable witnesses against police officers - if dont agree with me then what country have you been living in?
2 - most others were shit drunk
3 - giving you the benefit of the doubt we can momentarily exclude the testimony of the rich kids from chaing mai

that leaves us with only
1- Report and Forensics first provided by the local police and then subsequently by the DSI
2 - the End result - RIP
3 - the police officer in question behavior immediately after the shooting.

let us now examine these point in case

1 - I have not read it in detail - but from reports are that the initial police report said something to the effect of the police officer in question being over powered and having to struggle for his gun - shooting from the floor. the subsequent DSI report says something very different. Assuming that the DSI report is FACT then this already discredits the story of the police officer.

2 - end Result - RIP - A nice kid is Dead and some women is wounded. how can you justify or apologize for this. throwing all the facts together - that which we agree upon and not - it cannot justify that kid getting shot. a drunk and out of uniform police officer firing his gun three times at backpackers - whether he was attacked or not - that is not justifyed- he has lost control

3 - The behavior immediately after the shooting. The only facts we can agree on is that he fired three times - and killed one individual - This is undebatable- however immediately after the shooting he ran away. What does this tell us? Well the first thing is that he was not acting in his official capacity of a police officer. because if he was in "Police protect and serve' mode then despite shooting the 'criminal' he would have then called for assistance and controlled the scene. He instead ran off into the darkness. In the country where I was born we have a law called 'hit and run' Meaning if you accidentally hit someone with your car and then run away - you are guilty of a crime and also more likely guilty of it being more than an accident. Not to say that they have a law like this in Thailand - but the foundation of the law is that if you are innocent - you are less likely to run away after the incident.

[sabaijai]

That's more like it, Shah, a post with substance. We can agree to disagree then, on the facts rather than our respective personalities, and let the chips fall where they may.

[JohnPeel]

[quote name='Shah Jahan' post='1974299' date='2008-05-11 10:52:18'][quote name='sabaijai' post='1974039' date='2008-05-11 02:54:53'][quote name='Shah Jahan' post='1973638' date='2008-05-10 12:56:46'][quote name='sabaijai' post='1972589' date='2008-05-10 05:24:47'][quote name='JohnPeel' post='1971483' date='2008-05-09 07:00:01'][quote name='jackspratt' post='1970431' date='2008-05-08 22:41:51'][quote name='sabaijai' post='1970245' date='2008-05-08 20:48:15']I just returned from Pai, where I was told Sgt Maj Uthai had indeed passed through town. The police chief reportedly ordered him to return to his inactive post in Soppong to await trial and not show his face in Pai again till the trail was over.

Sgt Maj Uthai appears to be in worse shape than ever, drinking-wise, according to acquaintances of his. If he is indeed carrying a weapon, it's a travesty the police haven't confiscated it. He obviously doesn't have the pistol used the night of the shootings, and as far as anyone knows the only time he's ever fired a weapon outside of target practice was the night he was allegedly provoked by Carly and crew. I suppose finding a replacement in Thailand isn't difficult since police officers buy their own weapons anyway.

The Pai police chief is being transferred out and is currently awaiting his replacement. No idea whether the transfer is routine or related to the crime.[/quote]

I am sure we are all thankful for the update.

I do find your choice of words interesting - maybe even revealing. I would have thought a more concise and accurate description would have been "the night he shot Carly and crew".

All about emphasis, isn't it
[/quote]


All about peddling the police line But we can live with that.
[/quote]

And the testimony of most witnesses there that night.
[/quote]

Do you actually beleive what you are saying - or have you been in this place for so long that you have gone locoal
I will politely and firmly disagree with you and question your credibility on this subject.
[/quote]

It's not a question of believing, but rather talking to eyewitnesses and trying to understand the picture the collective testimony draws. The majority supported Uthai's allegation that Carly struck first. The DSI, for its part, are taking on board only one set of anonymous out-of-town witnesses.

That said there are discrepancies among all the eyewitness reports, probably most of all among Carly's various versions. I don't know whether we'll ever know the truth 100%, but judging from what I've been told, and from my previous acquaintance with both the cop and the victims, I tend to believe the majority witnesses. In case I've not already made it abundantly clear, that set of facts is in no way an 'apology', it's just the apparent reality (no one who wasn't there themselves can claim to know what really went down).

Where's your credibility, Shah? Talk to any witnesses yourself? I didn't think so. Let's stick to the issues at hand rather than ad hominem attacks, ok?
[/quote]

I should tell you that you sound like a thai politician/cop- flapping your arms around and screaming to look at the facts. Where of course the facts have been conveniently shaped to their own devices. I even remember an early point in the case with a TV interview with the chief and he said with a sure face that we cannot rely on speculation and that the forensics will tell the truth in this case. Well this was before he knew the DSI would get involved and he was counting on the fact that there would be NO FORENSICS as usual.

but to your point - we all know what carly was. thats not the point
I had encountered the police offer in question more than a few times and as soon as I heard somebody was shot by a cop - I knew it was him without even having to ask. how did I know this? well if you knew him too like you would claim then you would have known too. I seem to remember him getting drunk and shooting into the air at a reggae festival a few years ago as well. but again thats not the point either.

we can forget about any witnesses at this point because
1- local thais (or even local falang as demonstrated by your behavior) are no reliable witnesses against police officers - if dont agree with me then what country have you been living in?
2 - most others were shit drunk
3 - giving you the benefit of the doubt we can momentarily exclude the testimony of the rich kids from chaing mai

that leaves us with only
1- Report and Forensics first provided by the local police and then subsequently by the DSI
2 - the End result - RIP
3 - the police officer in question behavior immediately after the shooting.

let us now examine these point in case

1 - I have not read it in detail - but from reports are that the initial police report said something to the effect of the police officer in question being over powered and having to struggle for his gun - shooting from the floor. the subsequent DSI report says something very different. Assuming that the DSI report is FACT then this already discredits the story of the police officer.

2 - end Result - RIP - A nice kid is Dead and some women is wounded. how can you justify or apologize for this. throwing all the facts together - that which we agree upon and not - it cannot justify that kid getting shot. a drunk and out of uniform police officer firing his gun three times at backpackers - whether he was attacked or not - that is not justifyed- he has lost control

3 - The behavior immediately after the shooting. The only facts we can agree on is that he fired three times - and killed one individual - This is undebatable- however immediately after the shooting he ran away. What does this tell us? Well the first thing is that he was not acting in his official capacity of a police officer. because if he was in "Police protect and serve' mode then despite shooting the 'criminal' he would have then called for assistance and controlled the scene. He instead ran off into the darkness. In the country where I was born we have a law called 'hit and run' Meaning if you accidentally hit someone with your car and then run away - you are guilty of a crime and also more likely guilty of it being more than an accident. Not to say that they have a law like this in Thailand - but the foundation of the law is that if you are innocent - you are less likely to run away after the incident.




[/quote]

'THE ISSUE AT HAND'
This is really quite basic. The witness statements, a mass of almost instant ones, gathered by local police from locals, all seemingly identical, have pretty much been discredited by the forensics alone. So much for sj's collective evidence.

The other collective evidence - it was a hair trigger, he was shooting upwards as he was overpowered - has already gone up in smoke.

Either you believe the forensics - Dr. Pornthip and others - or u dont. SJ clearly does not, and prefers the word of local witnesses whom I guess will be shot down IF this case goes thru, if they haven't been already.

SJ has discredited the Thai Human Rights Commission basically saying they have been fitting up evidence. i.e. Carly, he says, was ordered what to say in her final statement.

That Carly Reisig is not everybody's cup of tea is irrelevant. And to suggest that the policeman had some sort of reason to kill Del Pinto and shoot Carly (both unarmed of course) because she 'provoked' doesn't wash.

Actually if SJ can find a local witness who actually SAW the shooting I guess it would be interesting. Because without exception none of the local witnesses actually said that saw Uthai pull the trigger. (They were hidden by parked cars) The Chiang Mai witnesses however did. They are not rich kids. It is a normal stable couple. Anonymous they may be, but they have given evidence and talked to journalists. (Nation)

Nobody in Pai thinks this killing was justifiable.

Actually it is a natural Thai reaction in all high profile cases such as this to come up with an explanation as to the reason, some sort of justification, as all are worried about the affects on tourism.

EG 1. Joe Masheder murder murdered by monk, Kanchanaburi. While the hunt was on for her body police put out the line that she was not dead but her father was involved in insurance scam.

EG 2 Kirsty Jones murdered raped and Chiang Mai: Many excuses here. Kirsty was up for it. First it was a tour guide (who was tortured for a confession) then, an Aussie backpacker, then the guest house owner. Then that the killer had bought sperm on the street and inserted it into her to put the police off etc. Nobody ever found for this crime.

EG 3. Vanessa Arscott and Adam Lloyd murdered Kanchanaburi. Adam made unprovoked assault on policeman, but policeman did not do it, it was an informant called Mr. Yaa., no name, no address, no telephone number, who did it. Journalists attacked by Kanchanaburi police at the trial.

Then of course there are the hundreds who died in the drugs war who of course were not shot by the police but collectively all decided to shoot each other and even in one casae did their own mass grave...in Pai too it seems.

One could go on.

[Seizhin]

We all know how 'big' these polices are in the pub.

Most Thai polices are nothing but a bunch of rogues.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

I suspect that this topic has run its course. Is there any sensible comment on that proposition ?

[Kerryd]

Agreed. It seems to be going downhill rather fast.

I'd suggest closing it, and when (if) any new evidence is revealed, or news from the actual court case itself is released, then a new topic could be started.
Otherwise it's just going to turn into a flame war.

[Shah Jahan]

sabaijai, on 2008-05-11 12:43:12, said:

That's more like it, Shah, a post with substance. We can agree to disagree then, on the facts rather than our respective personalities, and let the chips fall where they may.

agreed.

[JohnPeel]

Kerryd, on 2008-05-11 14:08:38, said:

Agreed. It seems to be going downhill rather fast.

I'd suggest closing it, and when (if) any new evidence is revealed, or news from the actual court case itself is released, then a new topic could be started.
Otherwise it's just going to turn into a flame war.

I'd go along with that. The arguments from both sides have been put forcefully enough now.

[wayfarer108]

JohnPeel, on 2008-05-11 12:45:09, said:

Nobody in Pai thinks this killing was justifiable.

Reading through the posts, I don't see that Sabajai or anyone else is saying that at all. They're just pointing out that there were extenuating circumstances and remote causes.

I own a home in Pai, and can say that most people I know believe that to be the case. Virtually no one I've talked to here, Thai or farang, believes the shooting took place out of the blue. Those who do are in the minority, in my estimation, and they tend to be people who either know nothing about the case (except what they've read in the newspapers) or nothing about the characters involved.

No one disputes the facts of the shooting itself, as far as I can tell. The issue being debated here, I think, isn't who saw the actual shooting, but who saw what led up to the shooting.

One more thing, I don't see that forensics commented one way or another on the trigger adjustment. Or maybe I missed it. At any rate there are people in Pai who were familiar with Uthai's weapon who said it indeed had a hair trigger. As did one of the western reporters who handled it at the police station.

Edited by wayfarer108, 2008-05-12 01:36:35.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Time to rest the topic. 82 pages.