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[Jimjim]

Regarding the main story the Independent journalist used as the focus of the article, the omission of certain facts is not acceptable journalism. If you read the previous thread about that case, the lady who had her British husband murdered was a former Bangkok bargirl, not a security guard. With respect to the dead, it's also laughable that Chernaud's sister would speculate that he'd never been to a strip bar. How the hel_l would she know? He was over here all by himself. Seems the author tried to paint her as a typical Thai girl although I'm not sure why.

[chiang mai]

[quote name='kopite' post='1763152' date='2008-01-15 16:58:16'][quote name='Prakanong' post='1763127' date='2008-01-15 16:42:07'][quote name='kopite' post='1763106' date='2008-01-15 17:29:01'][quote name='trader1' post='1762982' date='2008-01-15 15:21:19'][quote]On average, about 50 civilian UK nationals are murdered around the world each year (excluding terrorist attacks). This means that almost 10 per cent of all murders of Britons abroad are committed in Thailand – a chilling figure, given that Thailand comprises only 0.6 per cent of all foreign travel from UK shores.[/quote]

[/quote]

when you consider that most brits in thailand will either be drunk, high or spending lots of time and money with whores than its really not that surprising
[/quote]

and they are not doing that elsewhere they holiday

If they are to be believed noe of the Brits on this board do any of those things
[/quote]


its more to do with the type of brit that visit thailand. most of them are either young and reckless or old and stupid. the latter in abundance
[/quote]

I'm old and reckless, does that count?

[makavelithedon]

Amazing by reading some of the flippant questions asked here, how few even bothered reading the article past the first paragraph or two.

This area of the article was the most chilling and appeared overlooked:

The number of deaths of British nationals' in Pattaya is hard to ascertain – though some sources claim that it is up to four every week, neither the FCO nor the Thai authorities have any data they are prepared to release. However, what can be speculated with some confidence is that of the 226 average annual deaths of British citizens in Thailand recorded by the FCO, a large percentage are in Pattaya. (The FCO refuse to list causes of deaths, so we must also speculate as to the reasons for this morbid hotspot. Anecdotal evidence suggests straightforward causes of death for some, such as road accidents and health problems; then there are the suspicious-sounding "suicides" – jumping from balconies seems to be a favoured method.)

Of course, this is not murders alone but not being old or stupid either I know it isn't all suicides or accidents! It is a staggering statistic. Add to that other nationalities in a small area and it must be one of the highest in the world.

I don't care how many you want to label as undesirables etc I think the article was mainly being critical of the governments total lack of interest in any protection towards its citizens and it seems other western governments too. Would be interesting to see the stats for other Europeans and North Americans and if they have warnings on their websites?

M.

Edited by makavelithedon, 2008-01-18 14:39:40.

[Livinginexile]

ThaiLife, on 2008-01-13 09:08:55, said:

Just read this article in the Independent Interesting Reading ...

At least 17 Britons have been murdered in Thailand since 2003

The Independent on Sunday newspaper Article ..


http://news.independ...icle3326545.ece

Have you seen them staggering down Sukumvit in the middle of the day, bare chested, old football tattoo's on thier forearms, drunk as skunks, arms around each other and singing..."here we go, here we go, here we go..."
I'm suprised it's only 17

[thaiman]

how many were murdered in briton?

[tso310]

thaiman, on 2008-01-19 21:16:05, said:

how many were murdered in briton?

Last year in the UK April 2006 - March 2007 there were 775 murders (UK Home office provisional). FBI preliminary stats for 2007 show New York had 235. Austria has the lowest murder rate in the EU. If you translate some of the stats to actual numbers for the figures of the leading countries the absolute figures are very frightening.

These stats are for 2004 and come from the US Christian Party web site.

rank Country Homicide rate per 1,000 people
1. Colombia 0.6
2. South Africa 0.5
3. Jamaica 0.3
4. Venezuela 0.3
5. Russia 0.2
6. Mexico 0.1
7. Estonia 0.1
8. Latvia 0.1
9. Lithuania 0.1
10. Belarus 0.1
11. Ukraine 0.1
12. Papua New Guinea 0.1
13. Kyrgyzstan 0.1
14. Thailand 0.1
15. Moldova 0.1
16. Zimbabwe 0.1
17. Seychelles 0.1
18. Zambia 0.1
19. Costa Rica 0.1
20. Poland 0.1
21. Georgia 0.1
22. Uruguay 0.05
23. Bulgaria 0.04
24. United States 0.04
25. Armenia 0.04
26. India 0.03
27. Yemen 0.03
28. Dominica 0.03
29. Azerbaijan 0.03
30. Finland 0.03
31. Slovakia 0.03
32. Romania 0.03
33. Portugal 0.02
34. Malaysia 0.02
35. Macedonia 0.02
36. Mauritius 0.02
37. Hungary 0.02
38. Korea, South 0.02
39. Slovenia 0.02
40. France 0.02
41. Czech Republic 0.02
42. Iceland 0.02
43. Australia 0.02
44. Canada 0.01
45. Chile 0.01
46. United Kingdom 0.01
47. Italy 0.01
48. Spain 0.01
49. Germany 0.01
50. Tunisia 0.01
51. Netherlands 0.01
52. New Zealand 0.01
53. Denmark 0.01
54. Norway 0.01
55. Ireland 0.01
56. Switzerland 0.01
57. Indonesia 0.01
58. Greece 0.01
59. Hong Kong 0.01
60. Japan 0.005
61. Saudi Arabia 0.004
62. Qatar 0.001
Weighted Average 0.1

Edited by tso310, 2008-01-20 09:50:12.

[wilko]

gburns57au, on 2008-01-14 12:39:10, said:

kmart, on 2008-01-14 13:56:37, said:

I'm glad I only stayed in the UK for a piffling 28 years. Terrible place, horrible people, etc.

I stayed there for 11 years....and I agree, what a dump....full of xenophobic bigots, under educated thugs and snobbish Hi So's.....then there is the gloomy god awful weather...Snow sleet and rain...


I left there when I was 11...

always good to hear the recollections of an eleven year old - how old are you now?.... 11.5 ???

[lazeeboy]

i blame sangson and chaing beer ,after drinking those ive felt like topping myself .

[Totster]

makavelithedon, on 2008-01-18 14:38:01, said:

Amazing by reading some of the flippant questions asked here, how few even bothered reading the article past the first paragraph or two.

This area of the article was the most chilling and appeared overlooked:

The number of deaths of British nationals' in Pattaya is hard to ascertain – though some sources claim that it is up to four every week, neither the FCO nor the Thai authorities have any data they are prepared to release. However, what can be speculated with some confidence is that of the 226 average annual deaths of British citizens in Thailand recorded by the FCO, a large percentage are in Pattaya. (The FCO refuse to list causes of deaths, so we must also speculate as to the reasons for this morbid hotspot. Anecdotal evidence suggests straightforward causes of death for some, such as road accidents and health problems; then there are the suspicious-sounding "suicides" – jumping from balconies seems to be a favoured method.)

Of course, this is not murders alone but not being old or stupid either I know it isn't all suicides or accidents! It is a staggering statistic. Add to that other nationalities in a small area and it must be one of the highest in the world.

I don't care how many you want to label as undesirables etc I think the article was mainly being critical of the governments total lack of interest in any protection towards its citizens and it seems other western governments too. Would be interesting to see the stats for other Europeans and North Americans and if they have warnings on their websites?

M.

• Protection of foreign citizens remains the duty of the host nation.
  
• Cause(s) of death(s) are ascertained by or made known to the Embassies of the deceased.
  
• The FCO Booklet entitled ‘Deaths Overseas’ explains what can or cannot be done to assist: http://www.fco.gov.uk/Files/kfile/Death%20...out%2015051.pdf
  
• It’s ignorant to suggest information not reaching the public domain constitutes a ‘total lack of interest’.

[farang prince]

Prakanong, on 2008-01-13 22:35:09, said:

Just reading in the peper today in Singapore about the study just completed in the USa regarding the increase in murders by US Military personnel in the USA since the start of the Afghan war in 91 and through the Iraq war till now.

A 89% increase - maybe Americans should be careful at home while brits are being careful in Thailand

Prakanong, there are several factors involved in the increase of military-related murders in the USA. The first is post traumatic stress syndrome, which is creating a heavy toll on the military because of the extended numbers of tours of duty Army and Marine personnel are asked to complete. Second is that many of these murders are committed against spouses and often this is the result of the spouse committing adultery while their military partner is overseas. While I was a civilian assigned to special duties at Ft. Carson, CO, we had a substantial number of cases where military wives were not only cheating on their husbands when they were overseas in Iraq, but also were cleaning out their husbands' bank accounts before leaving.

As an aside, one of my platoon mates in Vietnam received a Dear John letter shortly before he was scheduled to return to the USA. He never said a word to anyone in the platoon. When he came back to the USA, he didn't tell his family or his estranged wife that he was returning home. After getting off the bus at Ft. Benning, this highly decorated soldier met up with some of his friends in a bar in Columbus, GA, found out where his wife was staying with her new boyfriend, had one of his friends drive him to a hardware store where he bought a claw hammer, then went to the wife's apartment and beat her and her boyfriend to death with the hammer. He then called the police and waited from them to pick him up.

My point is that during war, what we ask soldiers to do is often so stressful and emotionally destructive, that they have a hard time reintegrating back into society. I know I was drunk for the first two weeks after returning from my second tour in Vietnam and didn't even return to my home city for six months because I was so messed up. In fact, I wanted to go back for a third tour because I was more at home in a combat zone than I was in polite society. Fortunately, one of my old commanding officers interceded and got me transferred to a training command where I could use my experience and skills to prepare young non-coms for their first taste of combat.

I will never forget my first day back in "The World" as the USA was known to all us vets. I flew into San Francisco in my Class A uniform replete with rows of combat ribbons and was walking down the concourse to catch my flight to Atlanta and I saw this beautiful woman approaching from the opposite direction. She was making eye contact with me and had a big smile on her face. She was a classic California girl...long blonde hair that fell straight down to her shoulders, a beautiful braless body...and as she came up to me she said, "fuc_king baby killer." I wanted to break this dumb bitch's neck. But I walked on without saying a word. I have no idea what kind of willpower kept me from killing her right then and there. But for the grace of God go I...and I dearly know what these young men and women of the U.S. military are going through as they struggle to regain their sense of dignity and humanity when they come home.

I apologize for this being off-topic.

In response to the OP, 17 Britons being murdered in Thailand is 17 too many.

Edited by farang prince, 2008-01-22 06:14:51.

[Stephen Cleary]

Since this has been huge story and has sent bad vibes all around the world, I have decided to do some research into this story of 17 Brits being murdered in Thailand since 2003. And if the amount really was that high, then why and what reasons were they murdered etc...

Unfortunately, after doing thorough Google Searches in both Thai and English i have only been able to find news stories that make up much less than the 17. I thought this strange as Brit murders are always big stories.

Can anyone send me a link to the names of all the 17 who were murdered?

Anyone got any concrete proof?

[Stephen Cleary]

I have done some research on this article. I thought the readers would like to read it.

The author Andrew Spooner personally listed me the names of the 17 Brits murdered since 2003, they are;

Paul Mason
Micahel Butcher
Michael Pitts
Robert Henry
Arthur Green
Terence Ramsey
Mark Lemetti
Vanessa Arscott
Adam Lloyd
Bernard Le Court
Richard Collins
Toby Charnaud
Debra O’Hanlon
James Hall
Katherine Horton
Mark Jones
Steven Parkinson

Actually, he missed on out 'Michael Connolly, so that makes 18.

Read the top of his artricle, it reads "Government is so reluctant to warn that the Land of Smiles is one of the most dangerous places on earth for its British residents"
Later he uses phrases like "Maintaining a cool-heart" "Hot-heart" "It's dark side is visible" etc...

This whole article indirectly blames the Thais for the murders.

Yet, I’ve read into all the murders and here are my stats:

There is no evidence that Terence Ramsey and Michael Pitts were murdered, so that leaves 16 (unless someone can find something on the Internet, you can prove me wrong).

The only story i can find about Michael Butcher reveals that he was obviously killed in a car crash (the word ‘Kah’ in Thai can mean ‘both murder’ and ‘untentionally kill’. Obviously something was lost in translation there and it was exaggerated to ‘murder’). That was manslaughter at most. That leaves 15.

Another case of manslaughter and not murder is Paul Mason, his girlfriend after the stabbing was left in a ‘critical condition’. Looks like self-defence. That leaves 14.

Mark Lemetti was murdered by a Pakistani. That leaves 13 murdered by Thais.

Martin Connolly was murdered by an American. That leaves 12 murdered by Thais.

Debra O’Hanley was murdered by a Brit. That leaves 11 murdered by Thais.

Robert Henry was murdered by a Brit.

That therefore leaves 10 Brits who were murdered by Thais in 5 years. An average of 2 a year! Why oh why was this not mentioned in the article!@ I've already told Andrew that his article was 'sensationalist'.

Edited by Stephen Cleary, 2008-01-24 14:57:04.

[Jai Dee]

Good piece of research Stephen.

[rott]

[url="http://news.independent.co.uk/world/asia/article3326545.ece"]http://news.independent.co.uk/world/asia/article3326545.ece[/url][/quote]

Have you seen them staggering down Sukumvit in the middle of the day, bare chested, old football tattoo's on thier forearms, drunk as skunks, arms around each other and singing..."here we go, here we go, here we go..."
I'm suprised it's only 17
[/quote]

Hate to appear difficult but I've never seen that in the middle of the day in Sukhumvit. Not that I'm saying it's never, ever happened but it's hardly a daily event.

[howtoescape]

Surely the embassy has a record of all who died and how they died.

Dont think we will ever get an exact number as some of the deaths are suspicious ie the amount of balcony divers.

[happyjackthe4th]

All these negative comments about us Brits , we gave the world Modern Medicine , Transport , A free health service ,DNA , the Internet , Sattelites, the Black Adder , Del Boy ,Punks, Mods, Skins and Football Hooliganism, Oh well I'm off to have nice fry up ( gutbuster special ) 20 beers , 60 cigarettes, A bottle of whisky and bit of slap and tickle with my Isaan woman - Here go , here we go !!!

[Jimjim]

And nobody else contributed to modern medicine? Hmmmm. I do have to thank the Brits for football, the best sport in the world. And tennis; that too is a great sport.

As for the real subject, while Stephen Cleary's research is admirable, I think there are probably more murders that were written off as suicides, particulary in Pattaya. But that's just a guess.

[happyjackthe4th]

Jimjim, on 2008-01-24 20:52:01, said:

And nobody else contributed to modern medicine? Hmmmm. I do have to thank the Brits for football, the best sport in the world. And tennis; that too is a great sport.

As for the real subject, while Stephen Cleary's research is admirable, I think there are probably more murders that were written off as suicides, particulary in Pattaya. But that's just a guess.

Ok, I might concede a little on modern Medicine ,

As for the real subject , the problem we all know is the authorities don't excactly conduct a thorough investigation on one of their own peoples suspicious death's, let alone a foreigner , unfortunately thats the risk we take when coming here , sad but true.

bye the way ' Tennis ' is French

[Livinginexile]

happyjackthe4th, on 2008-01-24 19:31:42, said:

All these negative comments about us Brits , we gave the world Modern Medicine , Transport , A free health service ,DNA , the Internet , Sattelites, the Black Adder , Del Boy ,Punks, Mods, Skins and Football Hooliganism, Oh well I'm off to have nice fry up ( gutbuster special ) 20 beers , 60 cigarettes, A bottle of whisky and bit of slap and tickle with my Isaan woman - Here go , here we go !!!

Brilliant....I love it

[Jimjim]

happyjackthe4th, on 2008-01-24 21:29:41, said:

bye the way ' Tennis ' is French

I know this is way off topic, but I can only find information that it was invented in England. A British-based Spaniard and a Brit who played it together are credited by some as the earliest inventors of the game. So, Spanish or British, but not French.

[happyjackthe4th]

yes, Tennis was brought to us ' uncultural ' Brits , bye the aristocracy at the time , who had seen a similar game played by the French , it was later transformed into what we now know as ' lawn tennis '.

bet the bloke who hated our country for 28 years didn't know that , same he woulnd't have known about , - Newton, Brunei , stephenson, and dads army!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Stephen Cleary]

Jimjim, on 2008-01-24 19:52:01, said:

As for the real subject, while Stephen Cleary's research is admirable, I think there are probably more murders that were written off as suicides, particulary in Pattaya. But that's just a guess.

Thanks for that. Going on from what wrote about some murders going down as suicides - well, it is possible i suppose.

Spooner in his article mentions suspicious suicides of Farangs jumping from their balconies!

Right on Spooner, the British government ought to release a warning 'Angry Pattaya women have the strength of Supergirl, pish one off and she, even though she weighs 45kg and is 5 foot 1, will be able to pick you up (6 foot tall and weighing 90kg) and throw you over a four feet high balcony!"

Or perhaps, all these farangs who jump over four feet high baconies in Pattaya were hypnotized by women who also played around with black magic!

[Tolley]

Too many people have their heads buried in the sand when it comes to Thailand and violence.

Thailand is a very violent country and there are a lot of murders committed both local on local and local on foreigner.

I would love to see some reliable statistics on the number of tourists not just Brits that have been murdered or died in mysterious circumstances whilst on holiday in Thailand.

I fear that those statistics would probably make Thailand the most dangerous place to be a tourist in the world.

The Thai government has been woeful in dealing with many of these killings and the foreign embassies are really powerless to do much other than make offical complaints.

What can foreign governments really do anyway? They are not going to impose trade sanctions on Thailand. Every now and then they can issue a travel warning but apart from that you are on your own when you are in Thailand.

[Stephen Cleary]

Tolley, on 2008-01-25 11:52:39, said:

Too many people have their heads buried in the sand when it comes to Thailand and violence.

Thailand is a very violent country and there are a lot of murders committed both local on local and local on foreigner.

I would love to see some reliable statistics on the number of tourists not just Brits that have been murdered or died in mysterious circumstances whilst on holiday in Thailand.

I fear that those statistics would probably make Thailand the most dangerous place to be a tourist in the world.

The Thai government has been woeful in dealing with many of these killings and the foreign embassies are really powerless to do much other than make offical complaints.

What can foreign governments really do anyway? They are not going to impose trade sanctions on Thailand. Every now and then they can issue a travel warning but apart from that you are on your own when you are in Thailand.

Yes, i think many people have their heads buried in the sand and believe sensationalist reports about murders in Thailand (Andrew Drummond's latest on the Pai murder was a classic example).

Yes, they also believe the stuff about all the farangs dying in mysterious circumstances even though there isn't a speck of evidence.

Yes, Thailand can be a dangerous place for Farangs, especially guys who hang around Pattaya and either get drunk, get involved in fights or marry some gold-digger from that area.

[Tolley]

Stephen Cleary, on 2008-01-25 12:30:54, said:

Tolley, on 2008-01-25 11:52:39, said:

Too many people have their heads buried in the sand when it comes to Thailand and violence.

Thailand is a very violent country and there are a lot of murders committed both local on local and local on foreigner.

I would love to see some reliable statistics on the number of tourists not just Brits that have been murdered or died in mysterious circumstances whilst on holiday in Thailand.

I fear that those statistics would probably make Thailand the most dangerous place to be a tourist in the world.

The Thai government has been woeful in dealing with many of these killings and the foreign embassies are really powerless to do much other than make offical complaints.

What can foreign governments really do anyway? They are not going to impose trade sanctions on Thailand. Every now and then they can issue a travel warning but apart from that you are on your own when you are in Thailand.

Yes, i think many people have their heads buried in the sand and believe sensationalist reports about murders in Thailand (Andrew Drummond's latest on the Pai murder was a classic example).

Yes, they also believe the stuff about all the farangs dying in mysterious circumstances even though there isn't a speck of evidence.

Yes, Thailand can be a dangerous place for Farangs, especially guys who hang around Pattaya and either get drunk, get involved in fights or marry some gold-digger from that area.

Ignoring your attempt at irony the facts remain that thailand has a very high murder rate and tourists are murdered or die in mysterious circumstances with alarming frequency.

Further the Thai authorities are often very reluctant to try and catch the perpetrators and indeed seem to often try and cover up these crimes by calling then accidents or suicides completely ignoring all the evidence.

As for your comments about farangs in Pattaya.....does this mean they deserve to be murdered or it is any less of a crime....because they are drunk and/or have thai gfs?

Strange logic....