Posted 2010-09-26 11:33:06
 Deeral, on 2010-09-26 11:17:12, said:
It is now run as a personal "fiefdom" by a small squabbling elite who are increasingly seeing their piece of the pie eroded by poor and limited seasons, bad reptutation of hotels and increasing degradation of the scuba sites. - basically they have shat in their own nest.
PS - beware of anyone who makes claims direct or otherwise to being "green" on KC - that is likely as not completely misleading.
I'd pretty much agree with that. The "drain squabble" in Whitesands is a prime example. KC IMO is a place that has missed out on the potential that it had, by looking very short term, sadly not uncommon in Land of Somchai.
#77
Deeral
Posted 2010-09-26 11:44:08
mrtoad, on 2010-09-26 11:33:06, said:
Deeral, on 2010-09-26 11:17:12, said: It is now run as a personal "fiefdom" by a small squabbling elite who are increasingly seeing their piece of the pie eroded by poor and limited seasons, bad reptutation of hotels and increasing degradation of the scuba sites. - basically they have shat in their own nest.
PS - beware of anyone who makes claims direct or otherwise to being "green" on KC - that is likely as not completely misleading.
I'd pretty much agree with that. The "drain squabble" in Whitesands is a prime example. KC IMO is a place that has missed out on the potential that it had, by looking very short term, sadly not uncommon in Land of Somchai.
You pretty much sum it all up in one sentence!
Posted 2010-09-26 12:59:50
chriswatson, on 2009-12-20 19:09:18, said:
My great grand dad remembers when there were wild elephants on Koh Chang. He used to swim with them from Trat. Now all the elephants are tame and turned into tourist attractions. My grand dad remembers when there was no electricity. Now they use it in the 7/11's. My Dad remembers when there were no roads. Now the place is full of cars. In these western eyes KC has been going downhill for the last 100 years.
Health care, education and wealth has improved for the locals, but so what. Bring back malaria.
Guess what, the locals can have healthcare, education and wealth. They can even have a credible malaria eradcation program plus a few good hospitals. They can have all that without the unbridled (and dare I say, corrupt) development that destroys the very environment that is the envy of others. It's called sustainable development/tourism. Why would you think development and the environment are mutually exclusive?
#79
Deeral
Posted 2010-09-26 13:14:23
THere were never any wild elephants on KC
#80
Deeral
Posted 2010-09-26 14:26:52
doggie888888, on 2010-09-26 12:59:50, said:
chriswatson, on 2009-12-20 19:09:18, said:
My great grand dad remembers when there were wild elephants on Koh Chang. He used to swim with them from Trat. Now all the elephants are tame and turned into tourist attractions. My grand dad remembers when there was no electricity. Now they use it in the 7/11's. My Dad remembers when there were no roads. Now the place is full of cars. In these western eyes KC has been going downhill for the last 100 years.
Health care, education and wealth has improved for the locals, but so what. Bring back malaria.
Guess what, the locals can have healthcare, education and wealth. They can even have a credible malaria eradcation program plus a few good hospitals. They can have all that without the unbridled (and dare I say, corrupt) development that destroys the very environment that is the envy of others. It's called sustainable development/tourism. Why would you think development and the environment are mutually exclusive?
Actually lets adjust your post a bit to make it more like what is actually happening.....
The locals don't have access to the expensive healthcare offered to visitors, they simply can't afford it.
THe education is just as bad as it always was, but now those Thais (and some Cambodians) who have migrated to the island are offered a more stretched and underfunded version.
Virtually none of the wealth that flowed from tourism of increased land value has gone to the locals who either bought or pushed out at a very early stage of the islands development.
Most so called locals are manland folk who either bought early or happened to be landowners that previously was rented out to farmers who are now dispossessed and without land to farm.
KC used to be a MALARIA centre and was famous for being infested with disease. Obviously with the advent of tourism the disease has had to be tackled how well is not known or indicated by local authorities - HOWEVER - there have been several outbreaks of the disease in Trat province and the province itself is still one of the most effected provinces in Thailand. If there was an outbreak on KC itself DO YOU THINK YOU"D BE TOLD???
KC is plagued by unregulated and corrupt development - anyone who opposes it is either moved away, bribed or threatened. There is NO ATTEMPT at sustainable tourism - The National Park and hills that cover most of the island are continually encroached upon by unscrupulous developers, the infrastructure is completely inadequate. THere is actually appears to be no NO CLEAR information as to how rubbish and sewage is disposed of...the increased run-off from the island is decimating the sea around it. The reefs around the island are no longer suitable for scuba tourism they are being destroyed by the effluent from the huge increase in the island's population. Divers now own powerful speed boats to make trips further and further afield to find undamaged coral etc.
Development and environment are NOT mutually exclusive and part of a regulated developmental program would be to protect the very resources that make the island attractive and albeit too late the local economy and the local population. with the current development an implosion is quite likely as the business drifts to Koh Kud - which in turn will be destroyed - but that may take longer as there is a greater area for potential development on that island.
now that's more like it!
#81
Deeral
Posted 2010-10-11 19:37:07
Mudslide on Koh Chang kills one, injures another
Trat - A mudslide on tourist-destination Koh Chang killed a Cambodian worker and injured another Monday morning.
Officials said the mudslide hit Rock Sand Beach Resort at the White Sand Beach.
The mudslide hit four bungalows of the resort. A bungalow collapsed on a Cambodian worker, severely injuring him while another worker was buried by the mud.
-- The Nation 2010-10-11
From the OP.....
" The building over the last 3 years has completely filled the space between hills and shore. The developers have now started to dig away at the hills behind and are erecting buildings wherever they can - between the mudslides. One wonders how long it will be before a cliff collapses and takes a building with it. Look above the buildings to see evidence of land-slip...."
Edited by Deeral, 2010-10-11 19:38:47.
#82
sarahsbloke
Posted 2010-10-11 20:26:46
Scuba diving always destroys the dive sites, that's the way it works.
You want pristine coral ....... don't allow scuba diving or dive boats in the area.
Edited by sarahsbloke, 2010-10-11 20:27:52.
#83
Deeral
Posted 2010-10-11 20:45:48
sarahsbloke, on 2010-10-11 20:26:46, said:
Scuba diving always destroys the dive sites, that's the way it works.
You want pristine coral ....... don't allow scuba diving or dive boats in the area.
Whereas irresponsible scuba diving can result in some damage and even theft of corals, the main cause of damage is "run-off"...........
THe population of KC is tens even hundreds of times larger than it was just 20 years.
These new visitors and inhabitants all shower, shit and do all the usual things people do. THis results in a massive increase in "dirty" water entering the sea around the island - it enters at different temperatures and with various undesirable contents, chemicals, pollutants and matter in suspension. This all either is absorbed by or settles on the coral, which is either poisoned or suffocated.
so don't just blame the scuba divers, next time you take a "pooh" or a shower think about where that water is going to end up.
Even if it goes through a filtration plant it can still effect things like water temperature or salinity all of which will damage or kill coral.
just think where all that mud eroded after building work goes too!
Edited by Deeral, 2010-10-11 20:46:28.
Posted 2010-10-16 16:20:37
doggie888888, on 2010-09-26 12:59:50, said:
chriswatson, on 2009-12-20 19:09:18, said:
My great grand dad remembers when there were wild elephants on Koh Chang. He used to swim with them from Trat. Now all the elephants are tame and turned into tourist attractions. My grand dad remembers when there was no electricity. Now they use it in the 7/11's. My Dad remembers when there were no roads. Now the place is full of cars. In these western eyes KC has been going downhill for the last 100 years.
Health care, education and wealth has improved for the locals, but so what. Bring back malaria.
Guess what, the locals can have healthcare, education and wealth. They can even have a credible malaria eradcation program plus a few good hospitals. They can have all that without the unbridled (and dare I say, corrupt) development that destroys the very environment that is the envy of others. It's called sustainable development/tourism. Why would you think development and the environment are mutually exclusive?
Yeah right, have you been there recently? The Gov hospital is a joke, there are no schools on the island of any note, and the rst of it is a personal fiefdom ofa bunch of crooks.
As one of the locals told me " Trat is a rich province, there is lots of money, but bit none of us see it".
#85
Deeral
Posted 2011-07-15 16:00:12
having visited the island recently I have to say that it would appear that little or no money has been spent on infrastructure over the last couple of years, just a few more people trying to squeeze in another business here and there.
It also looks like the rate of development has slowed. I'm guessing this is due to reduced or static numbers of visitors as the island is getting a pretty poor reputation as a "paradise" island these days.
it seems to me that many of the visitors to KC now go on to other parts of the archipelago in search of whatever it was they didn't find on KC.
#86
RickThai
Posted 2011-07-15 22:28:38
My wife and I spent a week there last November. I was very disappointed in the island. Although we met a few, friendly Thais, many of the people, (especially the baht bus drivers) were very greedy and unpleasant to deal with.
One day I actually walked from my hotel (Emerald Cove) to the waterfall (can't remember the name), rather than pay an outrageous price to a baht bus driver. (The walk was quite fun actually, I knew enough to get a large and sturdy stick to deter the dogs, and although I got quite a good sweat, since the falls were about 6 km from my hotel, it was enjoyable).
The baht bus drivers also seem to have some kind of co-op or union (read mafia) going whereby only certain drivers would go to certain places.
I would never want to live there (that was one of the purposes of the trip). Everything is too congested along the single road that runs up and down the coast and the competition is too fierce, IMO.
Also the place seemed overrun with Russian tourists, who seem to be the most inconsiderate group of people on the planet (much worse then the French!). Perhaps being a global traveler is new to them.
RickThai
Edited by RickThai, 2011-07-15 22:31:14.
Posted 2011-07-21 11:26:44
Went there the weekend before last, and quite enjoyed it for a first visit.. It was pretty quiet, and our beach-front resort at White Sand beach had very few guests. Out of season it's quite a relaxing place for a few days'stay, but I can understand the reservations of those who have posted about the excessive development and commercialisation. This is fully in evidence all the way down the west coast, which contrasted starkly with the other side of the island where there is far less development and seemed much more tranquil under shelter from the stormy westerly winds.
The breakers on White Sand Beach were impressive, and fun to jump about in until I noticed an unpleasant slick turning the white foam to brown. It could only be one thing, and if we go back again I certainly won't be swimming in the sea.
#88
Deeral
Posted 2011-07-31 08:56:20
Eff1n2ret, on 2011-07-21 11:26:44, said:
Went there the weekend before last, and quite enjoyed it for a first visit.. It was pretty quiet, and our beach-front resort at White Sand beach had very few guests. Out of season it's quite a relaxing place for a few days'stay, but I can understand the reservations of those who have posted about the excessive development and commercialisation. This is fully in evidence all the way down the west coast, which contrasted starkly with the other side of the island where there is far less development and seemed much more tranquil under shelter from the stormy westerly winds.
The breakers on White Sand Beach were impressive, and fun to jump about in until I noticed an unpleasant slick turning the white foam to brown. It could only be one thing, and if we go back again I certainly won't be swimming in the sea.
Do you not find it disconcerting that you don't want to swim in the sea off what 15 years ago was a virtually pristine "paradise" island?
The main reason for the "far side" not being developed is that it simply doesn't have the beaches or sufficient flat land for development.
Edited by Deeral, 2011-07-31 08:57:41.
Posted 2011-09-17 11:52:35
RickThai, on 2011-07-15 22:28:38, said:
My wife and I spent a week there last November. I was very disappointed in the island. Although we met a few, friendly Thais, many of the people, (especially the baht bus drivers) were very greedy and unpleasant to deal with.
One day I actually walked from my hotel (Emerald Cove) to the waterfall (can't remember the name), rather than pay an outrageous price to a baht bus driver. (The walk was quite fun actually, I knew enough to get a large and sturdy stick to deter the dogs, and although I got quite a good sweat, since the falls were about 6 km from my hotel, it was enjoyable).
The baht bus drivers also seem to have some kind of co-op or union (read mafia) going whereby only certain drivers would go to certain places.
I would never want to live there (that was one of the purposes of the trip). Everything is too congested along the single road that runs up and down the coast and the competition is too fierce, IMO.
Also the place seemed overrun with Russian tourists, who seem to be the most inconsiderate group of people on the planet (much worse then the French!). Perhaps being a global traveler is new to them.
RickThai
Rick I share your sentiments 100%. Last time I was in Koh Chang was three years ago and I could not believe my eyes as to
how much development has occurred and how they have absolutely ruined what was once a charming island. As far as the Baht bus Mafia they are incredible aren't they?
I was staying in Bang Bao and because of a dearth of taxis running ( because none of the locals seemed to use them )
I decided to walk over the hill down to what used to be the Dusit Princess hotel but is now the Mercure.
When I decided to go back I simply flagged down the white songthaew and hopped on board as the only passenger.
He was going in the direction of Bang Bao anyway but to my utter disgust when we stopped he demanded 80 baht
from me in the most aggressive manner. I told him it was an outrageous amount but he didn't seem to care.
If this is what these people are going to do I think they will drive more and more tourists away from this destination.
I was so insulted by this I decided the only way to get revenge was to boycott using them.
The next day I gladly paid a Cambodian waiter from one of the restaurants where I had eaten the day before
to take me on his motorbike to the pier. If I ever go back to Koh Chang and there is a possibility I never will,
I will go out of my way to avoid using the white mafia taxis 
Edited by midas, 2011-09-17 11:54:50.
Posted 2011-09-18 00:27:24
I stayed on Koh Chang for a month in 1992. One of my best Thai beach experiences. There was very little development and I had the best bungalow on the beach. It was 70B/day.
Never been back.
Posted 2011-09-18 02:08:51
First went there in 2000. Returned in 2004, couldn't believe how much it had changed!
Can't imagine how bad it is now!
Posted 2011-09-18 07:37:14
Mooner, on 2011-09-18 02:08:51, said:
First went there in 2000. Returned in 2004, couldn't believe how much it had changed!
Can't imagine how bad it is now!
I first went there in 2002, back in 2010. I was amazed at the changes...really sad. Such a potentially beautiful place ruined by out of control construction, greed and corruption.
Posted 2011-09-19 09:43:50
lovetotravel, on 2011-09-18 07:37:14, said:
Mooner, on 2011-09-18 02:08:51, said:
First went there in 2000. Returned in 2004, couldn't believe how much it had changed!
Can't imagine how bad it is now!
I first went there in 2002, back in 2010. I was amazed at the changes...really sad. Such a potentially beautiful place ruined by out of control construction, greed and corruption.
yes well what they have actually done by allowing all this development is to force a huge number of new resorts and businesses
to fight for fewer and fewer baht. I have no idea what the future prospects are for this Island but I don't think
they are particularly good.
Edited by midas, 2011-09-19 09:44:37.
Posted 2011-09-23 11:53:00
I just returned from a week on Koh Chang and don't see what all the negativity in this thread is all about. Everywhere in the world has changed, nothing is the same anymore. I first went to Koh Samui and Koh Phi Phi in 1989 and sure they have become over-developed now but they are still beautiful islands.
We stayed in Had Kai Bae. What a beautiful clean beach that has such incredible sunsets. We looked around Had Sai Khao and thought the beach was dirty and over-crowded with Western tourists even for low-season. Hotels were over-priced. Klong Prao was also nice. We spent some time there. Lonely Beach was something I might have done when I was about 19 or 20. We rented a motor bike and went to Bang Bao. Some areas were nice there as well as Bailan Beach. We avoided all Western-owned restaurants as we always do in tourist areas. Overall we had a wonderful time, met some very nice people, made new friends, relaxed, went swimming, hiking, etc. I give Koh Chang a big thumbs up and will definitely be going there again. I only hope the trend with Russian tourism tapers off. They are for the most part, very arrogant, unfriendly, and rude to the hosts of this country.
Edited by elektrified, 2011-09-23 11:54:05.
Posted 2011-09-23 19:57:00
midas, on 2011-09-17 11:52:35, said:
RickThai, on 2011-07-15 22:28:38, said:
My wife and I spent a week there last November. I was very disappointed in the island. Although we met a few, friendly Thais, many of the people, (especially the baht bus drivers) were very greedy and unpleasant to deal with.
One day I actually walked from my hotel (Emerald Cove) to the waterfall (can't remember the name), rather than pay an outrageous price to a baht bus driver. (The walk was quite fun actually, I knew enough to get a large and sturdy stick to deter the dogs, and although I got quite a good sweat, since the falls were about 6 km from my hotel, it was enjoyable).
The baht bus drivers also seem to have some kind of co-op or union (read mafia) going whereby only certain drivers would go to certain places.
I would never want to live there (that was one of the purposes of the trip). Everything is too congested along the single road that runs up and down the coast and the competition is too fierce, IMO.
Also the place seemed overrun with Russian tourists, who seem to be the most inconsiderate group of people on the planet (much worse then the French!). Perhaps being a global traveler is new to them.
RickThai
Rick I share your sentiments 100%. Last time I was in Koh Chang was three years ago and I could not believe my eyes as to
how much development has occurred and how they have absolutely ruined what was once a charming island. As far as the Baht bus Mafia they are incredible aren't they?
I was staying in Bang Bao and because of a dearth of taxis running ( because none of the locals seemed to use them )
I decided to walk over the hill down to what used to be the Dusit Princess hotel but is now the Mercure.
When I decided to go back I simply flagged down the white songthaew and hopped on board as the only passenger.
He was going in the direction of Bang Bao anyway but to my utter disgust when we stopped he demanded 80 baht
from me in the most aggressive manner. I told him it was an outrageous amount but he didn't seem to care.
If this is what these people are going to do I think they will drive more and more tourists away from this destination.
I was so insulted by this I decided the only way to get revenge was to boycott using them.
The next day I gladly paid a Cambodian waiter from one of the restaurants where I had eaten the day before
to take me on his motorbike to the pier. If I ever go back to Koh Chang and there is a possibility I never will,
I will go out of my way to avoid using the white mafia taxis
I have to laugh how upset you got over 80 Baht for a ride! 
Posted 2011-10-13 17:41:26
Wow, it sounds like it has really gone down hill. The first time I visited was back in 2002 then back in 2004 and it was very pleasent. The wife who has never been would like to go for new year so I'm doing a little reading.
Has anyone been over the new year period?
Posted 2011-10-14 15:11:06
elektrified, on 2011-09-23 19:57:00, said:
I have to laugh how upset you got over 80 Baht for a ride!
It's double the price of what the charge is supposed to be.
The taxis are a total pain in the ass, there are some good ones - but a number of them are total rip off merchants. I live here, so I'm pretty used to hearing some of the ridiculous prices that some of the scammers will try.
Posted 2011-10-14 15:17:53
longstebe, on 2011-10-13 17:41:26, said:
Wow, it sounds like it has really gone down hill. The first time I visited was back in 2002 then back in 2004 and it was very pleasent. The wife who has never been would like to go for new year so I'm doing a little reading.
Has anyone been over the new year period?
I'm guessing you are talking about the Christmas / New Year period. That time of year the weather is good, and it is generally busy. You will need to book in advance.
There are a number of good places on Koh Chang, but the main problem is that there is a lot of unplanned building, and I can see it going the way of some of the other previously untouched places.
Lonely Beach is a shite hole in my opinion - full of wannabe back packers and crusties, I always drive through it quickly. Kae Bae - Chai Chet beach stretch is nice enough, there are plenty of decent places to stay as well as to eat and drink. Whitesands I guess is the main area, and there are plenty of hotels, bars and restaurants there. The beach is pretty decent, but you have to be careful of rip tides. The other side of the island is largely untouched, but again it is worth taking a drive over to that side and stop off a few places on the way.
Posted 2011-12-04 06:37:19
There is a similar disscussion here
http://www.thaivisa....51#entry4889251
I was looking forward to a return there after the 16 years since I was last there, but I think I'll keep the memory as a treasure, the reality would probably break my heart.
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