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[kriswillems]

I think this thread should become a sticky. These constructions are essential for anyone studying Thai. Thai language has hundreds of these construction, that can't be translated word by word. Aanon just left out the simple onces until know. But also the simple constructions are very interesting for anyone studying Thai.

[meadish_sweetball]

[kriswillems]

construction: X ยังกะ Y กะ Z
type of word(s): X is a noun+adj, classifier or verb, Y is a noun, Z is a noun
meaning: X like Y or Z (speaking language)
example:
ไล่ยังกะหมูกะหมา
คนยังกะมดกะปลวก
ผู้หญิงอ้วนยังกะหมูกะช้าง
translation:
chase away like a pig or a horse (thai expression, send away without consideration,feeling)
People like ants or termites (a lot of people)
A girl fat like a pig or an elephant

remark: กะ Z is optional
น่ารักยังกะตุ๊กตา cute like a doll

[DavidHouston]

construction: [noun] ต่างพากัน [verb]
type of word(s): connecting verb
meaning:  to do something together
example:  "ร้านค้าจำนวนมากต่างพากันปิดร้านหยุดขาย" (Thai Rath)
translation:  "Many stores shuttered their doors and ceased doing business."

"คนจีนทั้งในประเทศและทั่วโลกต่างพากันยินดีปรีดาอย่างยิ่งต่อแผนยุทธศาสตร์ใหญ่นี้ "  (Matichon Weekly)
The Chinese populations both domestically and internationally all expressed their joy and delight with these great strategic plans."

"ชาวบ้านในหมู่บ้านหนึ่งพบน้ำผุดขึ้นในหมู่บ้านและคิดว่าเป็นน้ำศักดิ์สิทธิ์ต่างพากันตักน้ำในบริเวณนี้ไปดื่มกิน" (Matichon)
The people in one of the villages who located a source of pristine water in the village and believed it to be holy water all went out to collect and drink the water there.

"ผู้คนที่อยู่ในตำแหน่งและอยู่ในระดับล่างต่างพากันสรรเสริญพระบารมี" (Arts and Culture)
Those who held relatively low positions all went out to pay homage to the King."

[kriswillems]

DavidHouston, on 2008-02-22 18:21:55, said:

construction: [noun] ต่างพากัน [verb]
type of word(s): connecting verb
meaning:  to do something together
example:  "ร้านค้าจำนวนมากต่างพากันปิดร้านหยุดขาย" (Thai Rath)
translation:  "Many stores shuttered their doors and ceased doing business."

"คนจีนทั้งในประเทศและทั่วโลกต่างพากันยินดีปรีดาอย่างยิ่งต่อแผนยุทธศาสตร์ใหญ่นี้ "  (Matichon Weekly)
The Chinese populations both domestically and internationally all expressed their joy and delight with these great strategic plans."

"ชาวบ้านในหมู่บ้านหนึ่งพบน้ำผุดขึ้นในหมู่บ้านและคิดว่าเป็นน้ำศักดิ์สิทธิ์ต่างพากันตักน้ำในบริเวณนี้ไปดื่มกิน" (Matichon)
The people in one of the villages who located a source of pristine water in the village and believed it to be holy water all went out to collect and drink the water there.

"ผู้คนที่อยู่ในตำแหน่งและอยู่ในระดับล่างต่างพากันสรรเสริญพระบารมี" (Arts and Culture)
Those who held relatively low positions all went out to pay homage to the King."

I am wondering if ต่าง in this expression indicates they are doing it all together but:
- not via the same way
- OR not via the same means
- OR not at the same place
- OR not at the same time.

For instance. Suppose father and mother are living in the same house and they would drive in the same car to go to a marriage party together, would you still use ต่างพากัน, or would you just use พากัน?

I am not sure, the word ต่าง makes me doubt. Feels like it expresses the subjects are "somehow" acting independently from each other.

Does anyone know?

Edited by kriswillems, 2008-02-27 22:21:28.

[aanon]

first, thanks kris for stickifying the thread. i've noticed that it's hard to sit down and think of a list of these constructions, but they do pop up regularly and so it will be easy to add gradually to a sticky thread.

on david's ต่างพากัน [verb], i agree that it emphasises the aspect of each person/agent/group acting individually. here's another ต่าง construction:

construction: ต่าง X ต่าง Y
type of word(s): X is a noun (usually people-related*), Y is a verb
meaning: each X does Y separately [or differently]
example: ต่างคนต่างหันไปซุบซิบกับเพื่อนอย่างตื่นเต้น
translation: each person turned to whisper excitedly with his or her friend(s)

all the best.

* eg. person, group, side (of an argument)

Edited by aanon, 2008-03-02 06:27:20.

[DavidHouston]

Here is a simplier usage of "ต่าง" from the report published by the คตส. (คณะกรรมการตรวจสอบการกระทำที่ก่อให้เกิดคามเสียหายแก่รัฐ).

"ทุกคนต่างยึดมั่นในความซื่อสัตย์สุจริตในการทำภาระหน้าที่ของตน"

"Each and every person (member of the committee) pledges to be honest and truthful in carrying out his or her duties."

I wonder if the use of the term "ต่าง" in these contexts, where the sentence would be understandable without the word, provides a meaning such as "individually and collectively" or "separately and jointly", as well as "each and every".  Any thoughts?

[tgeezer]

For instance. Suppose father and mother are living in the same house and they would drive in the same car to go to a marriage party together, would you still use ต่างพากัน, or would you just use พากัน?

I am not sure, the word ต่าง makes me doubt. Feels like it expresses the subjects are "somehow" acting independently from each other.

Does anyone know?
[/quote]
I think that you are right.  
It is easier or possible to think of it as a pronuon, 'they'  breaking it down to the two sentances.  1.subject = shops, modifier=many, verb=shut up shop. 2. subject=they, verb=lead, modifier = together.
  My dictionary definitely says ต่าง is either a pronoun or a modifier.  The other ต่าง is a noun for an object in which to carry things or a verb to carry, it can't be that.
Def.  ต่าง ๒ ส . เป็นคำแทนชื่อนามหลายฝ่ายให้แยกออกเป็นส่วนๆ  In English it seems to me to be, many people, they joined together but  (individually) shut their own shops. drink individually etc.
This is my first attempt and I am prepared to be 'shot down in flames'

[aanon]

DavidHouston, on 2008-03-02 15:06:19, said:

Here is a simplier usage of "ต่าง" from the report published by the คตส. (คณะกรรมการตรวจสอบการกระทำที่ก่อให้เกิดคามเสียหายแก่รัฐ).

"ทุกคนต่างยึดมั่นในความซื่อสัตย์สุจริตในการทำภาระหน้าที่ของตน"

"Each and every person (member of the committee) pledges to be honest and truthful in carrying out his or her duties."

I wonder if the use of the term "ต่าง" in these contexts, where the sentence would be understandable without the word, provides a meaning such as "individually and collectively" or "separately and jointly", as well as "each and every".  Any thoughts?

yes, david, i think 'each and every' is an excellent translation here.

from your earlier post, i think ผู้คนที่อยู่ในตำแหน่งและอยู่ในระดับล่าง... should be 'People, both commoners and those in important positions, all...'.

all the best.

[siamesekitty]

"each and every" is a good explanation of the term, for some situations. as for the issue of whether the action is done together vs. separately - well, it's often used to describe an action which a large number of people happen to do, during the same period of time (with or without knowledge that other people are doing the same).

So, it's something that they do individually, but it happens to be the same action, so this term is used to lump together the whole group of people that are doing this particular action.

eg.

"พอถึงวันวาเลนไทน์ทีไรจะต้องได้เห็นคู่รักต่างพากันเดินห้าง ทานข้าว ให้ของขวัญกัน..."

"Every time Valentine's day comes around, you'll see various couples going to the malls together, having dinner, giving each other presents.."

As you can imagine, each couple would be on their own (not a huge double/triple/quadruple/?? date ), but the sentence describes their similar activities.

[DavidHouston]

I don't recall if the following example reflects a construction we have already discussed:

"ศาสนาอิสลามนั้นหาใช่เป็นเพียงอัตลักษณ์ทางศาสนาและวัฒนธรรมเท่านั้น แต่ได้กลายเป็นอัตลักษณ์ทางการเมืองอย่างหนึ่งด้วย"

"Islam is not only a religious and cultural identity but is a political identity as well."

The construction would be:

construction: X หาใช Y เท่านั้น แต่ Y ด้วย  type of word(s): X is a noun or nown phrase; Y is the first predicate argument; Z is the second predicate argument
meaning:  Not only . . .  but also

I believe that the usual construction is that "หาใช" is usually replaced by "ไม่เพียงแต่"

I see on an internet site that the Barbara Streisand song "Being Alive" is translated as "การอยู่เพียงลำพัง หาใช่การมีชีวิตไม่"
which might be expanded to be "Being Alone Is Not Having a Life."

Have any of you seen any other uses of this construction?

Edited by DavidHouston, 2008-04-14 03:59:34.

[kriswillems]

Here's another construction that can't be translated word by word.

construction: อย่างไรก็ตาม X ( (there should be a space between อย่างไรก็ตาม and X)
type of word(s): X is a sentence
meaning:however X
example: อย่างไรก็ตาม ยังมีถกเถ๊ยงถึงคุณและโทษของการตัดแต่งรหัสพันธุกรรม ซึ่งต้องมีการศึกษากันต่อไป
translation: however, there's still discussion about the good and bad sides of genetic manipulation. So, we need further studying.

Edited by kriswillems, 2008-07-23 12:20:19.

[klons]

[quote name='aanon' date='2008-02-18 03:03:06' post='1825239']
thanks for your posts kris and mangkorn. one more for today:
[u]
[/u][u]construction:[/u] X จะตาย
[u]type of word(s):[/u] X is an adjective
[u]meaning:[/u] extremely X (colloquial)
[u]example:[/u] [size=-1]เขาจะเลิกผลิตได้ไงอะ 611 รุ่นนี้ขายดีจะตาย[/size]
[u]translation:[/u] how on earth could they stop producing it? this 611 model [phone] is an extremely good seller.

all the best.


So if a nice Thai person were to ask me how I like Thailand, I could say น่าเบื่อจะตาย  
(I'm not serious, I wouldn't say that.)
I may have another simple construction I got from a soap opera clip using ตาย.
It's probably not all that useful, but here it is.
The sister threatens to tattle on the brother to Daddy and the brother sarcastically replies that he is so scared.

construction:อะโห X ตายล่ะ
type of word(s): X is emotion or state of mind or body
meaning: sarcasm, (I'm so X (not) )
example: อะโห กลัวตายล่ะ
translation:  Oooh! I'm so scared!

By my way of thinking, one could also insert a pronoun in there and say things like Oooh! your'e so smart!.

[aanon]

construction: X ให้ X
type of word(s): X is a verb or adjective
meaning: If X, so be it.
example: 1) ตายให้ตาย 2) พังให้พัง
translation: 1) If I (am about to) die...well, so be it. 2) If it breaks, never mind.

[aanon]

aanon, on 2010-11-13 12:45:39, said:

construction: X ให้ X
type of word(s): X is a verb or adjective
meaning: If X, so be it.
example: 1) ตายให้ตาย 2) พังให้พัง
translation: 1) If I (am about to) die...well, so be it. 2) If it breaks, never mind.

In response to a query from a fellow student here, I would like to change my earlier translation and say that I find the tone of ตายให้ตาย to be more like "Bring it on!" than a calm "So be it." It contains more bravado than fatalism. That is my sense, anyway.

[tod-daniels]

aanon, on 2010-11-14 17:24:02, said:

In response to a query from a fellow student here, I would like to change my earlier translation and say that I find the tone of ตายให้ตาย to be more like "Bring it on!" than a calm "So be it." It contains more bravado than fatalism. That is my sense, anyway.

Quite strange this exact phrase came up now.

In fact just the other nite outside my apartment gate a group of thai guys had a few too many and suddenly an altercation erupted between two of them.  Plastic glasses went flying; chairs were knocked over, as the two people at odds with one another did the obligatory posturing, circling, feinting kicks, etc.  

I heard that phrase ตายให้ตาย (dtaai^M hai^F dtaai^M) yelled out by both parties, until their friends calmed 'em back down.  Strange as it may seem, everyone got back to the task at hand; drinking as if nothing had even happened.  I even noticed later that the two guys who had the earlier dispute rode off on the same motocy.  

In this context at least; it was most definitely said in much more a "Bring it on M/F!" tone of voice, than with the "So be it." type of meaning.

[FireInTheSky]

Really like this topic and decided I will do one myself

construction: ____X_____ ปุ๊ป _____Y_____ ปั็ป
Type of word(s): X is an action and Y is a different action
meaning: As soon as X then Y
example: 1) ทำปุ๊ปเสร็จปั๊ป 2) ลูกเป่าปุ๊ปพ่อเข้าไปจับปั๊ป
translation: 1) As soon as I do it it is finished. 2) As soon as you (his child) blow I will go out and grab it (the prey) (2 people are hunting lions and they blow poison darts out of a tube)


Hope I interpret this structure correctly I always thought it meant something like "as soon as ____ then _____" or "the second I ______ then ______" or something like that.