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[Jawnie]

Not to get too far off topic, but the idea that only males can reach full enlightenment is found through all the level of Buddhism.  If you think about it, though, as the writer states, it only requires a male body...waiting one more lifetime in a innumerable series of lifetimes. That's not so long and it's not a value judgement.  It has to do with being completely endowed with the necessary attributes.  Becoming enlightened is a very long process of 'gathering'.  It's just that this idea doesn't sit well with purely democratic ideals...

jdinasia, on 2008-03-20 00:00:18, said:

When asked by a farang woman in our class trip there. An ordained nun answered this question "So, even an ordained nun cannot attain full enlightenment?" thusly: ""Certainly she can, she need only die, come back as a man and become a monk" .....


But I am certainly not condemning them as I am in favor of activism and monks being vegetarians etc .. I am just very wary of that group of believers.

I did love their sesame candy though!

[rockyysdt]

So in summary, are you saying that being born (re birth) a woman is indicative of lacking necessary attributes required to become enlightened in that lifetime?

Are you also saying that a man by virtue of being a man is indicative of being endowed with more necessary attributes than a woman for the purposes of enlightenment?

What is enlightenment?

Jawnie, on 2011-10-15 15:56:18, said:

Not to get too far off topic, but the idea that only males can reach full enlightenment is found through all the level of Buddhism.  If you think about it, though, as the writer states, it only requires a male body...waiting one more lifetime in a innumerable series of lifetimes. That's not so long and it's not a value judgement.  It has to do with being completely sendowed with the necessary attribute.  Becoming enlightened is a very long process of 'gathering'.  It's just that this idea doesn't sit well with purely democratic ideals...

jdinasia, on 2008-03-20 00:00:18, said:

When asked by a farang woman in our class trip there. An ordained nun answered this question "So, even an ordained nun cannot attain full enlightenment?" thusly: ""Certainly she can, she need only die, come back as a man and become a monk" .....


But I am certainly not condemning them as I am in favor of activism and monks being vegetarians etc .. I am just very wary of that group of believers.

I did love their sesame candy though!

Edited by rockyysdt, 2011-10-15 16:59:57.

[Jawnie]

I'm not saying that. I am saying that this topic has been touched on by other Buddhist schools as well.

rockyysdt, on 2011-10-15 16:58:42, said:

So in summary, are you saying that being born (re birth) a woman is indicative of lacking necessary attributes required to become enlightened in that lifetime?

Are you also saying that a man by virtue of being a man is indicative of being endowed with more necessary attributes than a woman for the purposes of enlightenment?

What is enlightenment?

Jawnie, on 2011-10-15 15:56:18, said:

Not to get too far off topic, but the idea that only males can reach full enlightenment is found through all the level of Buddhism.  If you think about it, though, as the writer states, it only requires a male body...waiting one more lifetime in a innumerable series of lifetimes. That's not so long and it's not a value judgement.  It has to do with being completely sendowed with the necessary attribute.  Becoming enlightened is a very long process of 'gathering'.  It's just that this idea doesn't sit well with purely democratic ideals...

jdinasia, on 2008-03-20 00:00:18, said:

When asked by a farang woman in our class trip there. An ordained nun answered this question "So, even an ordained nun cannot attain full enlightenment?" thusly: ""Certainly she can, she need only die, come back as a man and become a monk" .....


But I am certainly not condemning them as I am in favor of activism and monks being vegetarians etc .. I am just very wary of that group of believers.

I did love their sesame candy though!

[camerata]

Xangsamhua, on 2011-10-08 06:14:23, said:

The brown-robed Sikkhamart, though inferior to Santi Asoke monks

So, Santi Asoke, which is outside the Sangha and can do what it wants, still doesn't give females equality. No surprise there, this being Thailand.

Quote

there's no female ordination at Dhammakaya.
Meanwhile, the popularity of Dhammakaya among middle-class, urban women should
make feminists re-think the class dimensions which retard the women's
movement.

Maybe feminists should consider whether the majority of modern women actually want to be bhikkhuni or prefer to be lay supporters.

@Jawnie : The idea that only males can reach full enlightenment may be found through all levels of Buddhism today, but not in the Pali Canon. Female arahants are mentioned in the Canon and, ironically, depicted on at least one temple mural in Bangkok.

@Rocky : "enlightenment" - as applied to Theravada - is just a loose English term for the state attained by stream-enterers, once-returners, non-returners or arahants. As applied to Mahayana, who knows?

[rockyysdt]

Sorry Jawnie.

I must have got that impression when you indicated:  "If you think about it, though, as the writer states, it only requires a  male body...waiting one more lifetime in a innumerable series of  lifetimes. That's not so long and it's not a value judgement.  It has to  do with being completely endowed with the necessary attribute".

This would be unfortunate if you subscribe to re birth being a moment to moment thing rather than future lives.

NB: When you say that the idea that only males can be enlightened being found through all the levels of Buddhism, do you mean the Sangha or the Dharma?

Jawnie, on 2011-10-19 10:24:57, said:

I'm not saying that. I am saying that this topic has been touched on by other Buddhist schools as well.

rockyysdt, on 2011-10-15 16:58:42, said:

So in summary, are you saying that being born (re birth) a woman is indicative of lacking necessary attributes required to become enlightened in that lifetime?

Are you also saying that a man by virtue of being a man is indicative of being endowed with more necessary attributes than a woman for the purposes of enlightenment?

What is enlightenment?

Jawnie, on 2011-10-15 15:56:18, said:

Not to get too far off topic, but the idea that only males can reach full enlightenment is found through all the level of Buddhism.  If you think about it, though, as the writer states, it only requires a male body...waiting one more lifetime in a innumerable series of lifetimes. That's not so long and it's not a value judgement.  It has to do with being completely sendowed with the necessary attribute.  Becoming enlightened is a very long process of 'gathering'.  It's just that this idea doesn't sit well with purely democratic ideals...

jdinasia, on 2008-03-20 00:00:18, said:

When asked by a farang woman in our class trip there. An ordained nun answered this question "So, even an ordained nun cannot attain full enlightenment?" thusly: ""Certainly she can, she need only die, come back as a man and become a monk" .....


But I am certainly not condemning them as I am in favor of activism and monks being vegetarians etc .. I am just very wary of that group of believers.

I did love their sesame candy though!

Edited by rockyysdt, 2011-10-19 15:28:48.

[Xangsamhua]

camerata, on 2011-10-19 11:24:51, said:

Xangsamhua, on 2011-10-08 06:14:23, said:

The brown-robed Sikkhamart, though inferior to Santi Asoke monks

So, Santi Asoke, which is outside the Sangha and can do what it wants, still doesn't give females equality. No surprise there, this being Thailand.

(From the wilds of Brisbane.) Please note that I was quoting an article by Sanitsuda Ekachai; they are not my words.

I don't know if the sikkhamart are considered as "inferior" in the Asoke sangha.  I doubt it, but, as you say, this being Thailand, I believe it takes them longer to be ordained.  Women are scrutinized more closely than men in any society.  Thailand is no more phallocentric than many other nations.  The largest single religion in the world, overseen by a clerical elite in Rome, will not allow women to be ordained at all.  Islam is in no hurry to raise the status of women.  Protestant Christianity and Reform Judaism are quite radical in appointing women clergy.

[Jawnie]

When I was with a Tibetan center in the US many years ago, women were not allowed to work on certain sacred art projects.  Slowly, slowly, though, the Head Lama began to allow them to work on them.  He said at that time that it was the first time women had worked on these kinds of art projects in 1,200 years.  Now, it's not an issue for that particular organization, women participate fully.  Perhaps these particular teachings simply need the light of democratic principles shined on them a little.  Those with the right intention and flexible minds will respond appropriately, I think.

Xangsamhua, on 2011-10-19 18:00:10, said:

camerata, on 2011-10-19 11:24:51, said:

Xangsamhua, on 2011-10-08 06:14:23, said:

The brown-robed Sikkhamart, though inferior to Santi Asoke monks

So, Santi Asoke, which is outside the Sangha and can do what it wants, still doesn't give females equality. No surprise there, this being Thailand.

(From the wilds of Brisbane.) Please note that I was quoting an article by Sanitsuda Ekachai; they are not my words.

I don't know if the sikkhamart are considered as "inferior" in the Asoke sangha.  I doubt it, but, as you say, this being Thailand, I believe it takes them longer to be ordained.  Women are scrutinized more closely than men in any society.  Thailand is no more phallocentric than many other nations.  The largest single religion in the world, overseen by a clerical elite in Rome, will not allow women to be ordained at all.  Islam is in no hurry to raise the status of women.  Protestant Christianity and Reform Judaism are quite radical in appointing women clergy.