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[geriatrickid]

kat, on 2008-07-14 00:16:29, said:

Lovely. Total is directly responsible for profiting from forced labor, and was involved in a suit in which their compensatory damages were then confiscated by the Junta for themselves. Your friend is directly profiting from the forced labor, murder, and property confiscation of helpless peasants in a Least Developed Country. Must be nice to live large in a villa.

That is an unfair and extremely biased statement. Of all the petro companies operating in Myanmar, Total is one of the few that exercises corporate social responsibility. I like to bash big oil like anyone else, but when a company tries to operate ethically and in compliance with international law they  deserve to be recognized for that. Total is governed by French law and according to Transparency International there are only 2 countries  that have made a real effort to crack down on bribery and corruption: France and the USA. Yes, the 2 favourite whipping boys for everyone's anger have actually taken the lead in trying to be honest. These are the only 2 countries that signed the OECD protocols on corruption and that have actually regularly brought charges against nationals that broke those laws.

Would you rather the Chinese, Indians and Russians with no concern for the environment or corporate social responsibility, or the French that make an effort, even if imperfect?
Please read this  http://www.total.com...ery-corruption/  Look at the environmental policies and the statement of financial transparency. That's for real.

When's the last time you saw a Russian, Indian or Chinese company make an effort and hold itself out for scrutiny? At least with Total if they do something wrong, there is a way to respond. Can the same be said for the other 3?

It is spurious and an egregious slur to accuse Total and its employees of a concerted effort to "directly profit from the forced labor, murder, and property confiscation of helpless peasants in a Least Developed Country". If you have the evidence, file a complaint with the French authorities. They will investigate and bring charges as they have done with other companies.

There will be oil and gas development in Myanmar whether we agree with it or not. I'd rather it was done by a company with a corporate environmental protection policy, open to public scrutiny, and a bonafide ethics policy than one without those characteristics. Would you rather they walk away and allow the Russians and Chinese,  the backers of Mugabe the despot of Zimbabwe, to do as they please? Because, that's what will happen if every decent western company does that.

[kat]

It's not spurious, there has been a whole lawsuit and people have been documenting evidence for years, which I've seen.  I've provided a link and plenty of information for you to follow and find out for yourself.  I can understand your arguments about big oil, but in fact Total and Unocal have profited from forced labor and confiscated property, there was a lawsuit by EarthRights International and others, and much of the initial compensatory damages were distributed (read pocketed) by the Junta before international intervention.  If you have such a problem hearing facts, then I suggest you spend years of tracking them down and talking to people who have done so, before YOU lodge judgments and temper tantrums of what is believable or not.

[kat]

Here we go - again:  

PLENTY of links, to supplement the MULTIPLE links I have already supplied in the past, on the other thread.  

http://www.du.edu/gs...ery/myanmar.pdf

http://rinf.com/alt-...hts-lobby/3254/  (Unocal is now Chevron)

Edited by kat, 2008-07-14 00:42:25.

[sabaijai]

This is an interesting debate. However, putting on my mod's hat for the moment, let's try to get back on topic and remember there is already a separate thread for discussing Burmese politics. I'm as guilty as everyone else in veering off into political debate, but the original topic is an enquiry about buying property in Myanmar, not the ethics of doing so. Some of us support economic engagement with Myanmar and some of us do not. End of story. If you want to debate that issue, go to the political thread, please.

One more reminder, using all-caps to emphasise one's emotional state is equivalent to shouting in netiquette, so please refrain from same.

[euroman007]

Has anyone found a good lawyer to help with buying land in Burma? I have several people interested in developing there.

[Patong Bob]

The first people to get into the west coast of Myanmar will make a fortune IF the junta ever falls, whether or not the Lady ever takes over.

It's like the west coast of Thailand 40 years ago.

Not worth the risk, though.

[rogerdee123]

This is beginning in Laos now also.

bangkapiboy, on 2008-05-25 10:47:56, said:

I read an article somewhere that the city is really changing in Myanmar, because the Chinese have moved into the city and are buying up the central areas.  Chinese businesses everywhere.  Prices have shot up, locals have sold for profit and moved toward the city outer areas.  Certainly someone could make some serious money there.  I think being Chinese can help.

[Huey]

Nampeung, on 2008-05-30 07:22:41, said:

Hey Richard etc I didn't mean any harm it is just because I am very involved in Burma and I feel that discussing buying property there while the country is in such a terrible state is inappropriate, certainly no bad feelings meant and so sorry if I have offended anyone. I am very passionate about the Burma situation  

Nampeung

Oh give it a rest. It's just investment savvy, and nothing new or by any means limited to Asia. For example;

    Baron Rothschild, an 18th century British nobleman and member of the Rothschild banking family, is credited with saying that  "The time to buy is when there's blood in the streets."




     

  He should know. Rothschild made a fortune buying in the panic that followed the Battle of Waterloo against Napoleon. But that's not the whole story. The original quote is believed to be "Buy when there's blood in the streets, even if the blood is your own."

[Penefattore]

Huey, on 2010-02-21 13:00:56, said:

The original quote is believed to be "Buy when there's blood in the streets, even if the blood is your own."

Please note those who bought Cuba bonds are still bleeding.

[laughingbuddha]

aesthete, on 2008-05-26 11:59:05, said:

I have some knowledge of this subject.
Foreigners are absolutely prohibited to own any property, be it land or condo, in Burma.
The loophole of setting up a Company, and buying the poperty in that Company's name, is very problematic and could lead to more problems than it sets out to solve.
Foreigners that HAVE purchased property in Burma (and there are a few) use a Burmese law called 'General Power' which at least gives them control over the property in their lifetime, but possibly not after that. Most simply buy in their wife's name and hope for the best!
As a poster above has stated, there has been a real estate boom in Burma, particularly in Rangoon and Mandalay, the former fuelled by a more prosperous middle class (generally with some Government connections), the latter with Chinese money.
Real estate prices are very cheap even by Thai standards. A reasonable 'walk-up' apartment can be bought downtown for as little as $12,000, whilst even a new development comparable with those in Thailand will be around $80,000 for a 1600sqft condo with quite some luxury and in a prime area.
Apart from those with Burmese wives/girlfriends who need to buy for practical purposes, the real estate market is in many ways a gamble on a future democracry.  If and it is a big IF there were to be some future political change whether in 5 or 20 years, the market will explode.
If you are serious about such a purchase I would suggest you get yourself a REPUTABLE local lawyer, failing which possibly I can find one for you.

Who would you recommend ?

[jayjayjayjay]

Any recommendations of broker or ppl with knowledge? Hillary just visited, what does that mean?

[Fletcher]

Please PM me if you have a serious interest in either property or other investments in Myanmar. I have 13 years experience in the country, both good and bad, so I know the pitfalls as well as the opportunities.

There are a couple of ways for foreigners to buy or long term lease land in Myanmar. The land reform law is also due to be enacted this year, and is likely to make land acquisition easier than it is in Thailand.

Whilst opportunities in certain parts of Yangon and the periphery are likely a bit overvalued at this time, there are still plenty of great opportunities on the outskirts (especially if you can obtain knowledge of the road master plan) and at several coastal areas. I have already completed due diligence on some land at one emerging coastal destination, that would make an excellent long term investment.

[Fletcher]

jayjayjayjay, on 2012-01-30 02:32:33, said:

Any recommendations of broker or ppl with knowledge? Hillary just visited, what does that mean?

It means that sanctions will be lifted soon. Possibly this year, but US embassy officials are downplaying that idea, but almost certainly by next year. Several very large US companies have already visited in the last few weeks.

[Fletcher]

euroman007, on 2010-01-10 06:02:20, said:

Has anyone found a good lawyer to help with buying land in Burma? I have several people interested in developing there.

I have a very good legal team, not just in terms of setting up an appropriate structure, but also able to get out to the land department officers, to ensure ownership claims are genuine, and that the land is not mortgaged etc

[gamon71]

Fletcher, on 2012-01-30 13:42:08, said:

euroman007, on 2010-01-10 06:02:20, said:

Has anyone found a good lawyer to help with buying land in Burma? I have several people interested in developing there.

I have a very good legal team, not just in terms of setting up an appropriate structure, but also able to get out to the land department officers, to ensure ownership claims are genuine, and that the land is not mortgaged etc

HY FLETCHER,
HOW CAN I CONTACT YOU?
I WANT BUY LAND IN MYANMAR

[fred110]

brahmburgers, on 2008-05-24 17:05:48, said:

I know this is off-topic, but to show the ridiculousness of Burmese authority's paranoia: a Burmese woman cannot legally marry a foreigner.

as for land, why not arrange to rent or lease?

Didn't Ms Sui Kyi (sp) marry an American?
I read that ,like Thailand, you can lease land but not own it.

[sabaijai]

fred110, on 2012-02-27 16:16:38, said:

brahmburgers, on 2008-05-24 17:05:48, said:

I know this is off-topic, but to show the ridiculousness of Burmese authority's paranoia: a Burmese woman cannot legally marry a foreigner.

as for land, why not arrange to rent or lease?

Didn't Ms Sui Kyi (sp) marry an American?
I read that ,like Thailand, you can lease land but not own it.

She married a UK citizen.

[Darvil]

This thread is pretty interesting.  Is this a recent trend?  or is the current time right now one of the safest time to buy some land? relatively and historically speaking of course.

Perhaps its time to inquire my relatives in burma about this.  Its unfortunate, I wasn't able to retain Burmese citizenship when I became a US citizen.  I know my dad did some real estate many years ago and it was a big failure but I never really asked that many questions about it.  

Maybe its a good time to get some land since I'm coming back to Thailand this year to work with my friends.  May have to send Fletcher a PM in the future!

[tombkk]

Fletcher, on 2012-01-30 13:34:57, said:

Please PM me if you have a serious interest in either property or other investments in Myanmar. I have 13 years experience in the country, both good and bad, so I know the pitfalls as well as the opportunities.

There are a couple of ways for foreigners to buy or long term lease land in Myanmar. The land reform law is also due to be enacted this year, and is likely to make land acquisition easier than it is in Thailand.

Whilst opportunities in certain parts of Yangon and the periphery are likely a bit overvalued at this time, there are still plenty of great opportunities on the outskirts (especially if you can obtain knowledge of the road master plan) and at several coastal areas. I have already completed due diligence on some land at one emerging coastal destination, that would make an excellent long term investment.

I was ensured by the Myanmar government that foreigners cannot buy land. They (we) can only get a lease.

[Sunny1803]

aesthete, on 2008-05-26 11:59:05, said:

I have some knowledge of this subject.
Foreigners are absolutely prohibited to own any property, be it land or condo, in Burma.
The loophole of setting up a Company, and buying the poperty in that Company's name, is very problematic and could lead to more problems than it sets out to solve.
Foreigners that HAVE purchased property in Burma (and there are a few) use a Burmese law called 'General Power' which at least gives them control over the property in their lifetime, but possibly not after that. Most simply buy in their wife's name and hope for the best!
As a poster above has stated, there has been a real estate boom in Burma, particularly in Rangoon and Mandalay, the former fuelled by a more prosperous middle class (generally with some Government connections), the latter with Chinese money.
Real estate prices are very cheap even by Thai standards. A reasonable 'walk-up' apartment can be bought downtown for as little as $12,000, whilst even a new development comparable with those in Thailand will be around $80,000 for a 1600sqft condo with quite some luxury and in a prime area.
Apart from those with Burmese wives/girlfriends who need to buy for practical purposes, the real estate market is in many ways a gamble on a future democracry.  If and it is a big IF there were to be some future political change whether in 5 or 20 years, the market will explode.
If you are serious about such a purchase I would suggest you get yourself a REPUTABLE local lawyer, failing which possibly I can find one for you.

Hi! any idea on how to set up a trading company in Yangon and what is the cost? (for Thai Nationals)

[Fletcher]

There are loopholes that can be used for foreigners to buy land with full title. I have concluded this type of transaction for some beachfront land in recent weeks for a thai based client.

For larger investments it is better to do officially, i.e. lease, as investment incentives are very favorable.

I can also set up a trading company for a thai national, or any other foreigner!

BTW, I have been doing business in Myanmar for over 13 years.

PM me for more info.

[hellodolly]

Fletcher, on 2012-04-17 15:56:34, said:

There are loopholes that can be used for foreigners to buy land with full title. I have concluded this type of transaction for some beachfront land in recent weeks for a thai based client.

For larger investments it is better to do officially, i.e. lease, as investment incentives are very favorable.

I can also set up a trading company for a thai national, or any other foreigner!

BTW, I have been doing business in Myanmar for over 13 years.

PM me for more info.

I have a problem with you basing your expertize on 13 years under a repressive military Regime. It is my understanding that things are changing rapidly and yesterday facts might not be today's facts.

I do how ever believe that knowing the people inside the system would give you a edge.
For my self it would be a duel problem as I a US citizen would be looking for a place to live in.

I know two different animals but they would both have to be solved before I could consider the move.

I wish the Mods would remove the first 60 posts as they have nothing to do with the situation in Burma today. Just some ammunition for Burmese bashers. Thai Visa should have a history thread for old posts that no longer have any  meaning.

DO YOU HEAR ME MODS. I know very rude of me.

[Fletcher]

hellodolly, on 2012-04-18 17:09:07, said:

Fletcher, on 2012-04-17 15:56:34, said:

There are loopholes that can be used for foreigners to buy land with full title. I have concluded this type of transaction for some beachfront land in recent weeks for a thai based client.

For larger investments it is better to do officially, i.e. lease, as investment incentives are very favorable.

I can also set up a trading company for a thai national, or any other foreigner!

BTW, I have been doing business in Myanmar for over 13 years.

PM me for more info.

I have a problem with you basing your expertize on 13 years under a repressive military Regime. It is my understanding that things are changing rapidly and yesterday facts might not be today's facts.

I do how ever believe that knowing the people inside the system would give you a edge.
For my self it would be a duel problem as I a US citizen would be looking for a place to live in.

I know two different animals but they would both have to be solved before I could consider the move.

I wish the Mods would remove the first 60 posts as they have nothing to do with the situation in Burma today. Just some ammunition for Burmese bashers. Thai Visa should have a history thread for old posts that no longer have any  meaning.

DO YOU HEAR ME MODS. I know very rude of me.

Thank you for your criticism given that you don't know me or what business I did in Myanmar. I will not elaborate here, but for anyone that also has an interest in helping Myanmar develop, I welcome a conversation, as I know my past experiences are still relevant today. I look forward to hearing from people that have interesting and innovative ideas, and am sure that I can help bring those ideas to fruition.

[hellodolly]

Fletcher, on 2012-04-18 21:28:10, said:

hellodolly, on 2012-04-18 17:09:07, said:

Fletcher, on 2012-04-17 15:56:34, said:

There are loopholes that can be used for foreigners to buy land with full title. I have concluded this type of transaction for some beachfront land in recent weeks for a thai based client.

For larger investments it is better to do officially, i.e. lease, as investment incentives are very favorable.

I can also set up a trading company for a thai national, or any other foreigner!

BTW, I have been doing business in Myanmar for over 13 years.

PM me for more info.

I have a problem with you basing your expertize on 13 years under a repressive military Regime. It is my understanding that things are changing rapidly and yesterday facts might not be today's facts.

I do how ever believe that knowing the people inside the system would give you a edge.
For my self it would be a duel problem as I a US citizen would be looking for a place to live in.

I know two different animals but they would both have to be solved before I could consider the move.

I wish the Mods would remove the first 60 posts as they have nothing to do with the situation in Burma today. Just some ammunition for Burmese bashers. Thai Visa should have a history thread for old posts that no longer have any  meaning.

DO YOU HEAR ME MODS. I know very rude of me.

Thank you for your criticism given that you don't know me or what business I did in Myanmar. I will not elaborate here, but for anyone that also has an interest in helping Myanmar develop, I welcome a conversation, as I know my past experiences are still relevant today. I look forward to hearing from people that have interesting and innovative ideas, and am sure that I can help bring those ideas to fruition.

"Thank you for your criticism given that you don't know me or what business I did in Myanmar."
It was not a criticism it was a statement of concern on my part.
I gave you credit for the insiders you know.
If you had tried to alieve my concern you could have mentioned that you are in touch with a what is happening day to day with your insiders.
Instead you fall back on the fact I don't know you or what you have been doing on the last 13 years which even a idiot knows have changed and are still in the process of changing.
You ignore my problem that supposedly you know about in regards to a place to live.

And then you go on to say " I look forward to hearing from people that have interesting and innovative ideas"
In short you know nothing. You have nothing to offer.

Edited by hellodolly, 2012-04-19 14:16:47.

[Fletcher]

hellodolly, on 2012-04-19 14:14:59, said:

Fletcher, on 2012-04-18 21:28:10, said:

hellodolly, on 2012-04-18 17:09:07, said:

Fletcher, on 2012-04-17 15:56:34, said:

There are loopholes that can be used for foreigners to buy land with full title. I have concluded this type of transaction for some beachfront land in recent weeks for a thai based client.

For larger investments it is better to do officially, i.e. lease, as investment incentives are very favorable.

I can also set up a trading company for a thai national, or any other foreigner!

BTW, I have been doing business in Myanmar for over 13 years.

PM me for more info.

I have a problem with you basing your expertize on 13 years under a repressive military Regime. It is my understanding that things are changing rapidly and yesterday facts might not be today's facts.

I do how ever believe that knowing the people inside the system would give you a edge.
For my self it would be a duel problem as I a US citizen would be looking for a place to live in.

I know two different animals but they would both have to be solved before I could consider the move.

I wish the Mods would remove the first 60 posts as they have nothing to do with the situation in Burma today. Just some ammunition for Burmese bashers. Thai Visa should have a history thread for old posts that no longer have any  meaning.

DO YOU HEAR ME MODS. I know very rude of me.

Thank you for your criticism given that you don't know me or what business I did in Myanmar. I will not elaborate here, but for anyone that also has an interest in helping Myanmar develop, I welcome a conversation, as I know my past experiences are still relevant today. I look forward to hearing from people that have interesting and innovative ideas, and am sure that I can help bring those ideas to fruition.

"Thank you for your criticism given that you don't know me or what business I did in Myanmar."
It was not a criticism it was a statement of concern on my part.
I gave you credit for the insiders you know.
If you had tried to alieve my concern you could have mentioned that you are in touch with a what is happening day to day with your insiders.
Instead you fall back on the fact I don't know you or what you have been doing on the last 13 years which even a idiot knows have changed and are still in the process of changing.
You ignore my problem that supposedly you know about in regards to a place to live.

And then you go on to say " I look forward to hearing from people that have interesting and innovative ideas"
In short you know nothing. You have nothing to offer.

Hellodolly,
Apologies, for misinterpreting your original comment.

Whilst the political situation in the country has changed markedly in the last 18 months, and it is a genuine change, the full impact has not yet filtered down through the bureaucracy. There is also quite a lot of confusion within government departments as to how to handle the change. Several draft laws have appeared in recent months, only to be withdrawn for re-drafting. This includes 2 key laws including the Foreign investment law and the land reform law. For example, we cannot be fully sure that the 8-yr tax incentives on FDI will be implemented,  or will it get reduced back down to 5 or 3 years.

In terms of the investment climate, there has been lots of talk regarding FDI, but very little in the way of actual deals involving foreigners. Nevertheless, local entrepreneurs are much more active now as they see the risk of government expropriation (a real risk during 90's and 00's) having declined markedly. (Incidentally i was a co-founder of a company that was expropriated by the govt just before we initiated a 100MUSD IPO.)

A lot of old money is now coming out from under the floorboards, as entrepreneurial activity increases, nevertheless there are many locals that are looking for foreign capital (as equity) because they don't want to partner with the local 'big-guys', and cannot borrow because debt markets are ridiculously expensive.

All  in all, political reform is leading economic reform, and administrative reform, though we still see many encouraging signs on all fronts, that appear to be more significant than the few negative signs. Of particular interest, will be a cabinet reshuffle in coming weeks, as the individual changes will significantly determine the future pace and direction of reform.

Personally speaking and as a result of the aforementioned loss, I have studied all relevant business laws, and have learnt the loopholes, that may be suitable for certain investors. I also keep up-to-date with all the proposed changes, as well as being involved in providing policy documents relating to one particular sector.

Hope this very general answer allays your concerns.