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[Doza]

[quote]Are they dealing and trading illegaly in tigers? most Probably,[/quote]
So why is this allowed to go on? Are all the visitors informed of this? I doubt as many tourists would be flocking there if they knew this and its this sort of information these threads are trying to get out there. And why not inform people...?

[quote]I suggest everyone looks a bit nearer home for the way animals are treated!![/quote]
This has no relevance to this thread at all. Let me sumarise:
This is a Thailand web forum
People participating in the subject live in Thailand or travel to Thailand
The subject exists in Thailand

This is about exposing lies perpetuated by the Tiger Temple for monetary gain and the exploitation of endangered animals here at this specific place near Kanchanaburi THAILAND.

[quote]So its up to you to folks sort your problems in your own country,[/quote]
No, its up to people to do what they want. If they have an interest as an expat in Thailand or tourist to the Tiger Temple they can jolly well focus on it all they want.

[quote]If you dont approve of the Abbots Antics, Well Stay Away, we will sort it!![/quote]
Who is "we". Do you work there? What will you sort and how and when?

[quote]might take us a few years but we will succeed,[/quote]
Succeed in what. Who is "we"???

[Doza]

http://www.lonelypla...e...3

[wilko]

Heres someone else for you to slag off....

"am coming out with my full name to make sure that people know who I am and to make sure that they know how much (you decide) credibility to give to my remarks or ideas about this issue. Let me start to say that Dr. West and Somchai Rakchat are not one person, I know Somchai very well, but have no idea who Dr West is. Somchai is working in conservation within Thailand. If he wants to come out again that will be his decision.

I have read the CWI report twice now and can only say that I feel it is a good report with lots of information that is absolutely true. As a matter of fact there is more to it than that is written in the report, however I believe that CWI wanted only to publish what is proven with sufficient evidence. From our own investigation 6 years ago we found similar info and even more disturbing news. We felt that we were not the right people to go ahead at that time and an organization too small to push, I was at that time under lots of pressure for going after the illegal orangutan trade within Thailand which at that time seemed a very urgent case. We succeeded there and repatriated almost 60 orangutans back to Borneo but it took 4 years of a struggle. This TT issue might be just as tough.

Now I want everyone on this thread to understand that the authorities are aware of what is going on at the TT, they are aware of the origin of the tigers, the torture and they know about the ongoing trade. I can guarantee you that NOTHING will happen with the TT unless the media writes about it and the report is widely distributed. Sending in a complaint to the authorities will just not do it alone, send them the info but don't forget that public/media pressure is the best way to go here.

The person that claims to have a report (thesis?) with much more evidence on the matter should publish it immediately on the web so it can be used by all parties to stop the suffering of the tigers and the illegal trade, if it really exists it might be a handy tool. It is only a matter of time before the next tigers are send to Laos to end up in TCM (Traditional Chinese Medicine), because that is what will happen in the end, once the tigers get older and cannot be handled any longer it is too expensive to keep them going as they bring in no more (photo) money.

I am myself a foreigner in Thailand and feel that this whole "torture circus" is financed by ignorant foreigners who only want to see something weird (it is extremely weird to expect a tiger to be tame i.m.h.o.) and don't use their stupid brains before visiting a place like this. We see it all around Thailand on beaches with gibbons, snakes and even crocs, I am not saying it is o.k. for locals to exploit the animals, but it seems that too many tourists are just too eager to have their picture taken with a gibbon, snake, croc or in this case tiger. It is BIG BIG business and for some enough reason to hang on to it with all means...

Edwin Wiek
WFFT
...Extinction is Irreversible...

Extinction is irreversible "

[wilko]

Nignoy, on 2008-06-23 18:40:13, said:

Are the  conditions at the tiger temple Ideal, of course not!!!
Are they dealing and trading illegaly in tigers? most Probably,
Are the tigers in a reasonable state of health, Yes
Are the tigers being starved, claws torn out, beaten into submission, NO
The tigers are in no worse a situation or condition as tigers in many zoo,s in the world,the tiger temple has become to popular too soon , so it is now being seen worldwide warts and all!!At least in the tiger temple there is very little hidden from the eyes of an observer, no secret off limit areas where illegal animals are hidden and butchered,as I have witnessed in zoo,s in Europe,I dont agree with the way most things are run at theTiger Temple. but I think that the situation is being blown out of all proportions. I suggest everyone  looks a bit nearer home for the way animals are treated!!for example in a 2007 survey on the performance enhancement of  Competition Show Horses(Jumper and CrossCountry)71% of horses examined had traces of extensive Barring, Barring for uninisiated is to beat a horse on its front shins usually with a thin metal rod, this makes the shins so sensitive,the horse will do anything to avoid its lower legs coming into contact with anything and so try and jump any obstacle!! So folks  the tiger temple has not got such a big support base as big zoo,s or sport associations,So its up to you to folks sort your problems in your own country, If you dont approve of the Abbots Antics, Well Stay Away, we will sort it!! it might take us a few years but we will succeed, where as in other so called First world civilised countries the ABUSE GOES ON Nignoy

sadly a fallacious content and spurious argument

[dotcom]

I remember your work with the orangutans. BRAVO Sir & Thank you.

[wilko]

Nignoy - you don't seem to understand.....this is a THAI orientated web site for people who want to visit  or are visiting Thailand. So issues such as the Temple are of great significance, especially as so many foreigners who inadvertently/unknowingly support the place.
However it is not a problem that concerns only Thailand.....THailand has signed international agreements regarding the welfare and conservation of animals...this place is in breach of those agreements which makes Thailand look bad, very bad.

It is important then that the world knows about this place and some effective processes are started to sort the situation out.

Viled threats will not work...this is a matter on international concern and will not go away.

[Nignoy]

wilko, on 2008-06-24 15:08:35, said:

Nignoy, on 2008-06-23 18:40:13, said:

Are the  conditions at the tiger temple Ideal, of course not!!!
Are they dealing and trading illegaly in tigers? most Probably,
Are the tigers in a reasonable state of health, Yes
Are the tigers being starved, claws torn out, beaten into submission, NO
The tigers are in no worse a situation or condition as tigers in many zoo,s in the world,the tiger temple has become to popular too soon , so it is now being seen worldwide warts and all!!At least in the tiger temple there is very little hidden from the eyes of an observer, no secret off limit areas where illegal animals are hidden and butchered,as I have witnessed in zoo,s in Europe,I dont agree with the way most things are run at theTiger Temple. but I think that the situation is being blown out of all proportions. I suggest everyone  looks a bit nearer home for the way animals are treated!!for example in a 2007 survey on the performance enhancement of  Competition Show Horses(Jumper and CrossCountry)71% of horses examined had traces of extensive Barring, Barring for uninisiated is to beat a horse on its front shins usually with a thin metal rod, this makes the shins so sensitive,the horse will do anything to avoid its lower legs coming into contact with anything and so try and jump any obstacle!! So folks  the tiger temple has not got such a big support base as big zoo,s or sport associations,So its up to you to folks sort your problems in your own country, If you dont approve of the Abbots Antics, Well Stay Away, we will sort it!! it might take us a few years but we will succeed, where as in other so called First world civilised countries the ABUSE GOES ON Nignoy

sadly a fallacious content and spurious argument

With my spurious Argument   I was just trying to make a point that what happens at the Tiger temple as bad and as cruel as it may seem, and I do not condone it, it does not just happen in Thailand.we visit the abbot regularly when we are in thailand and try and discuss his problems and methods, the impression that I get is that the abbot is not the head honcho and that maybe he is just doing what he is told,the question was asked by another member who the We are that I mention so often , We are a group of retired zoological Vets, Retired Zoo Directors and Curators even a couple of Master zoo keepers, Who together try and do our best to help stamp out the abuse and illegal trade in protected Species, which is still Big Business!! and very dangerous for the few that actually clandestinely  try to bring the Culprits to justice,as a friend found out a few years ago when he was murdered while investigate animal smuggling in Togo Nignoy

[Samuian]

waza, on 2008-06-22 03:17:11, said:

.... my only concern was that maybe the Tigers were drugged to make them more passive.  Nor do I  see any evidence in these links to show the tigers are systematically abused....

  concerned, but as long there is no "evidence"... don't you think that it is against the nature of Tigers in the first place and that this is abuse already?  


Samui features some "Wildlife-Show" - Aquarium sort of thing - disgusting!

The Tigers, at least some of them are very distressed, walking very neurotic  around in their cages and Yes- some seem to be drugged....

[Nignoy]

wilko, on 2008-06-24 15:24:20, said:

Nignoy - you don't seem to understand.....this is a THAI orientated web site for people who want to visit  or are visiting Thailand. So issues such as the Temple are of great significance, especially as so many foreigners who inadvertently/unknowingly support the place.
However it is not a problem that concerns only Thailand.....THailand has signed international agreements regarding the welfare and conservation of animals...this place is in breach of those agreements which makes Thailand look bad, very bad.

It is important then that the world knows about this place and some effective processes are started to sort the situation out.

Viled threats will not work...this is a matter on international concern and will not go away.

We do not make veiled threats, we investigate the trade and illegal possesion of Protected species!!where possible we  purchase the animals or birds concerned I know this is a thai forum, my history with thailand  goes back to 1963 , where I bought baby sea eagles and gibbons from the market that is now called Chatuchak!!, The sea eagles were successfully hacked back on an island off the coast of Rayong in 1964, one of the baby gibbons died the same day but the other 3 were successfully released on a malay owned property near Hat yai.Many Branches of  International protection agencies are only Interested in the shock ,Horror stories that tug at the purse strings of viewers and readers, it is up to the people in country, fighting at grassroots level to do what they can!!not a great deal of funding comes down the chain, to many burocrats with their fingers in the pots so we finance our selves we dont hunt publicity or the limelight we do what we believe in!!As always I will continue travelling to thailand 4 times a year doing the best I can to solve whatever wildlife problems I come across,why do you think you are not allowed to photograph or film animals in Chatuchak?? Nignoy

[wilko]

Nignoy, on 2008-06-24 15:48:06, said:

wilko, on 2008-06-24 15:08:35, said:

Nignoy, on 2008-06-23 18:40:13, said:

Are the  conditions at the tiger temple Ideal, of course not!!!
Are they dealing and trading illegaly in tigers? most Probably,
Are the tigers in a reasonable state of health, Yes
Are the tigers being starved, claws torn out, beaten into submission, NO
The tigers are in no worse a situation or condition as tigers in many zoo,s in the world,the tiger temple has become to popular too soon , so it is now being seen worldwide warts and all!!At least in the tiger temple there is very little hidden from the eyes of an observer, no secret off limit areas where illegal animals are hidden and butchered,as I have witnessed in zoo,s in Europe,I dont agree with the way most things are run at theTiger Temple. but I think that the situation is being blown out of all proportions. I suggest everyone  looks a bit nearer home for the way animals are treated!!for example in a 2007 survey on the performance enhancement of  Competition Show Horses(Jumper and CrossCountry)71% of horses examined had traces of extensive Barring, Barring for uninisiated is to beat a horse on its front shins usually with a thin metal rod, this makes the shins so sensitive,the horse will do anything to avoid its lower legs coming into contact with anything and so try and jump any obstacle!! So folks  the tiger temple has not got such a big support base as big zoo,s or sport associations,So its up to you to folks sort your problems in your own country, If you dont approve of the Abbots Antics, Well Stay Away, we will sort it!! it might take us a few years but we will succeed, where as in other so called First world civilised countries the ABUSE GOES ON Nignoy

sadly a fallacious content and spurious argument

With my spurious Argument   I was just trying to make a point that what happens at the Tiger temple as bad and as cruel as it may seem, and I do not condone it, it does not just happen in Thailand.we visit the abbot regularly when we are in thailand and try and discuss his problems and methods, the impression that I get is that the abbot is not the head honcho and that maybe he is just doing what he is told,the question was asked by another member who the We are that I mention so often , We are a group of retired zoological Vets, Retired Zoo Directors and Curators even a couple of Master zoo keepers, Who together try and do our best to help stamp out the abuse and illegal trade in protected Species, which is still Big Business!! and very dangerous for the few that actually clandestinely  try to bring the Culprits to justice,as a friend found out a few years ago when he was murdered while investigate animal smuggling in Togo Nignoy

That really sums it up...the standards of zoo-keeping in this country have been lamentable in everyway for decades...this is a web site about Thailand, so  saying that others are just as bad is SO weak that it really is totally risible.......you have spent your life doing NOTHING but allowing the wildlife welfare in this country continue in a disgraceful state and then have the temerity to come on this site as an apologist when you are clearly one of the originators of this ghastly situation....you should all be thoroughly ashamed of what you have been instrumental on condoning and allowing to happen........


asking people to stay "well away" after you have failed in your duty a an animal "expert" is quite appalling, and to suggest that because someone has been murdered we should all turn our backs is even worse......what kind of person are you?????

If you are what you say you are should should be well aware of international standards for animal husbandry and the treaties and agreements signed by youyr country....yet you have stood by and let (or encouraged?) this kind of trade to flourish right under your own nose...this din't jusrt happen after you retired...you know who it is and you are in a position to have let the world know yet you have kept it quiet......I'm totally disgusted

[Pierrot]

wilko, on 2008-06-24 17:57:54, said:

you have spent your life doing NOTHING ...

Sorry for asking, but after such a rant, a question jumps to mind, what have you personally done so far ?

[Nignoy]

wilko, on 2008-06-24 16:57:54, said:

Nignoy, on 2008-06-24 15:48:06, said:

wilko, on 2008-06-24 15:08:35, said:

Nignoy, on 2008-06-23 18:40:13, said:

Are the  conditions at the tiger temple Ideal, of course not!!!
Are they dealing and trading illegaly in tigers? most Probably,
Are the tigers in a reasonable state of health, Yes
Are the tigers being starved, claws torn out, beaten into submission, NO
The tigers are in no worse a situation or condition as tigers in many zoo,s in the world,the tiger temple has become to popular too soon , so it is now being seen worldwide warts and all!!At least in the tiger temple there is very little hidden from the eyes of an observer, no secret off limit areas where illegal animals are hidden and butchered,as I have witnessed in zoo,s in Europe,I dont agree with the way most things are run at theTiger Temple. but I think that the situation is being blown out of all proportions. I suggest everyone  looks a bit nearer home for the way animals are treated!!for example in a 2007 survey on the performance enhancement of  Competition Show Horses(Jumper and CrossCountry)71% of horses examined had traces of extensive Barring, Barring for uninisiated is to beat a horse on its front shins usually with a thin metal rod, this makes the shins so sensitive,the horse will do anything to avoid its lower legs coming into contact with anything and so try and jump any obstacle!! So folks  the tiger temple has not got such a big support base as big zoo,s or sport associations,So its up to you to folks sort your problems in your own country, If you dont approve of the Abbots Antics, Well Stay Away, we will sort it!! it might take us a few years but we will succeed, where as in other so called First world civilised countries the ABUSE GOES ON Nignoy

sadly a fallacious content and spurious argument

With my spurious Argument   I was just trying to make a point that what happens at the Tiger temple as bad and as cruel as it may seem, and I do not condone it, it does not just happen in Thailand.we visit the abbot regularly when we are in thailand and try and discuss his problems and methods, the impression that I get is that the abbot is not the head honcho and that maybe he is just doing what he is told,the question was asked by another member who the We are that I mention so often , We are a group of retired zoological Vets, Retired Zoo Directors and Curators even a couple of Master zoo keepers, Who together try and do our best to help stamp out the abuse and illegal trade in protected Species, which is still Big Business!! and very dangerous for the few that actually clandestinely  try to bring the Culprits to justice,as a friend found out a few years ago when he was murdered while investigate animal smuggling in Togo Nignoy

That really sums it up...the standards of zoo-keeping in this country have been lamentable in everyway for decades...this is a web site about Thailand, so  saying that others are just as bad is SO weak that it really is totally risible.......you have spent your life doing NOTHING but allowing the wildlife welfare in this country continue in a disgraceful state and then have the temerity to come on this site as an apologist when you are clearly one of the originators of this ghastly situation....you should all be thoroughly ashamed of what you have been instrumental on condoning and allowing to happen........


asking people to stay "well away" after you have failed in your duty a an animal "expert" is quite appalling, and to suggest that because someone has been murdered we should all turn our backs is even worse......what kind of person are you?????

If you are what you say you are should should be well aware of international standards for animal husbandry and the treaties and agreements signed by youyr country....yet you have stood by and let (or encouraged?) this kind of trade to flourish right under your own nose...this din't jusrt happen after you retired...you know who it is and you are in a position to have let the world know yet you have kept it quiet......I'm totally disgusted

My My you have got your jockstrap in a twist   we continue exposing animal smugglers and traders where ever we can,sometimes at risk to our own lives, our successes are well documented, how can you say we have stood by and let things happen, I personally started in wildlife conservation as a 12 year old in Kenya in the 50,s have worked with gorilla and chimpanzee rescue in the congo, returning the first group of captive bred orangs to the wild in 73have been involved in prosecuting animal smugglers in europe, had a 3 hour documentary made about our work by the BBC in the early 90,s I could go on and on!! well if thats letting things happen without acting, well I think your are talking Twonk And as far as your comments about husbandry goes, parts of my animal husbandry manuals  are standard working practises  in zoo,s world wide. Oh and another  little achievement with the help of Professor Seiffert from Dresden and Leipzig zoo,s we set up the World Stud books for Siberian tigers which encouraged other proffessionals to start other endangered species Stud books. With my Director Franz Stettner in Aachen we started the first zoo and wildlfe school for classes of school children , this as also common practise in many zoo,s today, So I think I can hold my head up, we have also had a few successes in being the first institution to be breed different endangered  species of wildlife,no  camera,s publicity or sleight of hand , just hard work and the knowledge tthat we will succeed. Nignoy

[Pierrot]

Reason for edit : after Nignoy answer, nothing much to add.

Edited by Pierrot, 2008-06-24 19:56:03.

[tw25rw]

Quite seperate from issues around the tiger temple, I've been digging around looking for evidence of CWI being a legitimate animal welfare charity and am finding it pretty thin on the ground. I find them associating themselves with other organisations and supposedly recruiting sponsorships for animals in the care of these organisations, but that these references aren't reciprocated. It seems the only animals they directly take care of are wild animals that they have given cute names to. How sponsoring a wild polar bear or dolphin works isn't explained.
I also found mention of a report they were planning to do to present to CITES with the (help of donations).
I can find no evidence however that they actually do anything constructive other than collect donations (some of it by schools) and produce websites to encourage donation from the public.
I also haven't yet worked out how many people they employ in conservation roles or what their turnover is or whether they actually have the resources to commit to a 3 year study of the tiger temple other than accumulated hearsay and negative opinions from various forums (not to mention their feable video evidence of "cruelty")..
So, as far as I can see, they don't really exist as a wildlife conservation organisation outside of an office in Sussex. Some or all of what they say in their campaigns may be true, but I don't trust their motives for publishing it.

[Pierrot]

tw25rw, on 2008-06-24 22:20:11, said:

Quite seperate from issues around the tiger temple, I've been digging around looking for evidence of CWI being a legitimate animal welfare charity and am finding it pretty thin on the ground. I find them associating themselves with other organisations and supposedly recruiting sponsorships for animals in the care of these organisations, but that these references aren't reciprocated. It seems the only animals they directly take care of are wild animals that they have given cute names to. How sponsoring a wild polar bear or dolphin works isn't explained.
I also found mention of a report they were planning to do to present to CITES with the (help of donations).
I can find no evidence however that they actually do anything constructive other than collect donations (some of it by schools) and produce websites to encourage donation from the public.
I also haven't yet worked out how many people they employ in conservation roles or what their turnover is or whether they actually have the resources to commit to a 3 year study of the tiger temple other than accumulated hearsay and negative opinions from various forums (not to mention their feable video evidence of "cruelty")..
So, as far as I can see, they don't really exist as a wildlife conservation organisation outside of an office in Sussex. Some or all of what they say in their campaigns may be true, but I don't trust their motives for publishing it.

Great job. CSI:TV at its best !

[wilko]

[quote name='Nignoy' post='2051426' date='2008-06-24 19:45:55'][quote name='wilko' post='2051153' date='2008-06-24 16:57:54'][quote name='Nignoy' post='2051056' date='2008-06-24 15:48:06'][quote name='wilko' post='2051002' date='2008-06-24 15:08:35'][quote name='Nignoy' post='2049606' date='2008-06-23 18:40:13']Are the  conditions at the tiger temple Ideal, of course not!!!
Are they dealing and trading illegaly in tigers? most Probably,
Are the tigers in a reasonable state of health, Yes
Are the tigers being starved, claws torn out, beaten into submission, NO
The tigers are in no worse a situation or condition as tigers in many zoo,s in the world,the tiger temple has become to popular too soon , so it is now being seen worldwide warts and all!!At least in the tiger temple there is very little hidden from the eyes of an observer, no secret off limit areas where illegal animals are hidden and butchered,as I have witnessed in zoo,s in Europe,I dont agree with the way most things are run at theTiger Temple. but I think that the situation is being blown out of all proportions. I suggest everyone  looks a bit nearer home for the way animals are treated!!for example in a 2007 survey on the performance enhancement of  Competition Show Horses(Jumper and CrossCountry)71% of horses examined had traces of extensive Barring, Barring for uninisiated is to beat a horse on its front shins usually with a thin metal rod, this makes the shins so sensitive,the horse will do anything to avoid its lower legs coming into contact with anything and so try and jump any obstacle!! So folks  the tiger temple has not got such a big support base as big zoo,s or sport associations,So its up to you to folks sort your problems in your own country, If you dont approve of the Abbots Antics, Well Stay Away, we will sort it!! it might take us a few years but we will succeed, where as in other so called First world civilised countries the ABUSE GOES ON Nignoy[/quote]


sadly a fallacious content and spurious argument
[/quote]With my spurious Argument   I was just trying to make a point that what happens at the Tiger temple as bad and as cruel as it may seem, and I do not condone it, it does not just happen in Thailand.we visit the abbot regularly when we are in thailand and try and discuss his problems and methods, the impression that I get is that the abbot is not the head honcho and that maybe he is just doing what he is told,the question was asked by another member who the We are that I mention so often , We are a group of retired zoological Vets, Retired Zoo Directors and Curators even a couple of Master zoo keepers, Who together try and do our best to help stamp out the abuse and illegal trade in protected Species, which is still Big Business!! and very dangerous for the few that actually clandestinely  try to bring the Culprits to justice,as a friend found out a few years ago when he was murdered while investigate animal smuggling in Togo Nignoy
[/quote]


That really sums it up...the standards of zoo-keeping in this country have been lamentable in everyway for decades...this is a web site about Thailand, so  saying that others are just as bad is SO weak that it really is totally risible.......you have spent your life doing NOTHING but allowing the wildlife welfare in this country continue in a disgraceful state and then have the temerity to come on this site as an apologist when you are clearly one of the originators of this ghastly situation....you should all be thoroughly ashamed of what you have been instrumental on condoning and allowing to happen........


asking people to stay "well away" after you have failed in your duty a an animal "expert" is quite appalling, and to suggest that because someone has been murdered we should all turn our backs is even worse......what kind of person are you?????

If you are what you say you are should should be well aware of international standards for animal husbandry and the treaties and agreements signed by youyr country....yet you have stood by and let (or encouraged?) this kind of trade to flourish right under your own nose...this din't jusrt happen after you retired...you know who it is and you are in a position to have let the world know yet you have kept it quiet......I'm totally disgusted
[/quote]My My you have got your jockstrap in a twist   we continue exposing animal smugglers and traders where ever we can,sometimes at risk to our own lives, our successes are well documented, how can you say we have stood by and let things happen, I personally started in wildlife conservation as a 12 year old in Kenya in the 50,s have worked with gorilla and chimpanzee rescue in the congo, returning the first group of captive bred orangs to the wild in 73have been involved in prosecuting animal smugglers in europe, had a 3 hour documentary made about our work by the BBC in the early 90,s I could go on and on!! well if thats letting things happen without acting, well I think your are talking Twonk And as far as your comments about husbandry goes, parts of my animal husbandry manuals  are standard working practises  in zoo,s world wide. Oh and another  little achievement with the help of Professor Seiffert from Dresden and Leipzig zoo,s we set up the World Stud books for Siberian tigers which encouraged other proffessionals to start other endangered species Stud books. With my Director Franz Stettner in Aachen we started the first zoo and wildlfe school for classes of school children , this as also common practise in many zoo,s today, So I think I can hold my head up, we have also had a few successes in being the first institution to be breed different endangered  species of wildlife,no  camera,s publicity or sleight of hand , just hard work and the knowledge tthat we will succeed. Nignoy
[/quote]


im getting increasingly suspicious of these people cliaming to be THai rescuers and having made TV programs with the Beeb etc without declaring what the program was but trying to get ID out of others....whyare you so keen to find out who these people are?

however....if you are who you claim to be it would help if you fill in ALL the details...as you and i are aware the people connected with the Temple will not stop short of "the malckey".............

You may not be Thai....something I have assumed - am I wrong?

or are you just trying to put people off the scent?

i can't see you have any good reason for not publicising this place unless you have a vested interest in it...

the temple has tried posting some pretty naive comments on various web sites before...so maybe someone has got their duplicitous shit together now.....either way, i "smell a device"

[dotcom]

What nid needs to understand is that: unless & until he gets a shed load of red hot Thais, mad as hel_l about that Temple ; nothing is going to happen.

They don't like foreigners meddling in their affairs. Tiger parts = big money = you dead if they catch you at night up on the Lao border.

Get some film of them mistreating the animals or trafficing them. Maybe a local news show will run the film. If not = FORGET IT.

[wilko]

How do we know that Nignoy is bona fide anyway......sounds like a good ploy for a smoke screen to me.

just blatantly lie about who you are to get the weight of opinion on your side?

there seem to be an awful lot of experts who have just "appeared" out of nowhere on this and other threads about the temple.

Edited by wilko, 2008-06-24 22:55:24.

[saorsa]

wilko, on 2008-06-24 23:12:17, said:

however....if you are who you claim to be it would help if you fill in ALL the details...as you and i are aware the people connected with the Temple will not stop short of "the malckey".............

dam_n, what part of scotland did you grow up in spelling malkey with a 'c'?

My personal opinion from having visited the temple in January this year is that the situation of the tigers at TT is probably the best they could hope for in this part of the world.  That doesnt excuse abuse, but TBH, I dont really see that any of the abuse shown in videos or talked about on these websites is that severe.  They would have a lot tougher time in the wild where cannibalism among tigers by the fathers and territorial fights that can leave them crippled or dead, being poisened or shot by poachers are a fairly regular occurence (or at least according to the BBC and DIscovery channel documentaries I have seen).

[Nignoy]

wilko, on 2008-06-24 23:54:12, said:

How do we know that Nignoy is bona fide anyway......sounds like a good ploy for a smoke screen to me.

just blatantly lie about who you are to get the weight of opinion on your side?

there seem to be an awful lot of experts who have just "appeared" out of nowhere on this and other threads about the temple.

without giving out my name and  address who or what am I,son of a career soldier raised in UK, HK and kenya, at age of 14 joined british army as an apprentice, served Operation Crown in Thailand from 1963 to 1966, was injured and pensioned of in 69 , trained as zookeeper in hannover,from 70 till having to retire in 2002 have had a successful career in zoo,s and wildlife protection,my last big volontary job was training keepers  for a funny little chappie called Steve Irwin at Australia zoo in queensland. But all this is well documented in many previous threads, there are even members who reside in thailand who have served or bumped into me in one country or another even though I am 80% disabled , I still do what I can,  as we speak a compilation of my australian wildlife papers are being used as guidelines for for wildlife care in Queensland. Seeing as my life interests you so much I presented Ronald and Nancy Reagan with a pair of our captive bred American Bald eagle babies on their visit to Bonn late70,s early 80,s I look real sweet in my lederhosen, but hey who gives a shit, until 1990 the British govt and public branded us as liars when we talked about being on active service in thailand in the 60,s Nignoy

[wilko]

Nignoy, on 2008-06-25 02:51:01, said:

wilko, on 2008-06-24 23:54:12, said:

How do we know that Nignoy is bona fide anyway......sounds like a good ploy for a smoke screen to me.

just blatantly lie about who you are to get the weight of opinion on your side?

there seem to be an awful lot of experts who have just "appeared" out of nowhere on this and other threads about the temple.

without giving out my name and  address who or what am I,son of a career soldier raised in UK, HK and kenya, at age of 14 joined british army as an apprentice, served Operation Crown in Thailand from 1963 to 1966, was injured and pensioned of in 69 , trained as zookeeper in hannover,from 70 till having to retire in 2002 have had a successful career in zoo,s and wildlife protection,my last big volontary job was training keepers  for a funny little chappie called Steve Irwin at Australia zoo in queensland. But all this is well documented in many previous threads, there are even members who reside in thailand who have served or bumped into me in one country or another even though I am 80% disabled , I still do what I can,  as we speak a compilation of my australian wildlife papers are being used as guidelines for for wildlife care in Queensland. Seeing as my life interests you so much I presented Ronald and Nancy Reagan with a pair of our captive bred American Bald eagle babies on their visit to Bonn late70,s early 80,s I look real sweet in my lederhosen, but hey who gives a shit, until 1990 the British govt and public branded us as liars when we talked about being on active service in thailand in the 60,s Nignoy

"1990 the British govt and public branded us as liars when we talked about being on active service in thailand in the 60" - why?

doesnt read too good does it?
some highly dubious contacts....I'm afraid you look to me to be an apologist....Steve Irwin...highly contraversial...reagan....now there's a name I'd hardly connect with conservation...conservatism ..Yes........

sorry but it just makes me all the more suspicious of you.

but at least we can see the sortof company you keep.

Lederhosen eh?...that begs a few questions too.

Sorry this is getting off topic...but I don't trust your motives....or connections.

Edited by wilko, 2008-06-25 08:07:05.

[Doza]

Nignoy - you say you represent an organisation that undertakes formal conservation work.

Please name the organisation.

Quote

we continue exposing animal smugglers and traders where ever we can,sometimes at risk to our own lives, our successes are well documented

Quote

We are a group of retired zoological Vets, Retired Zoo Directors and Curators even a couple of Master zoo keepers, Who together try and do our best to help stamp out the abuse and illegal trade in protected Species

Quote

we investigate the trade and illegal possesion of Protected species!!where possible we purchase the animals or birds concerned

[Goshawk]

Nignoy, on 2008-06-24 20:45:55, said:

had a 3 hour documentary made about our work by the BBC in the early 90,s

really ?
what was the full title of this, i'd like to see it..

[wilko]

It sounds like nignoy is of the old-school. Animal welfare and conservation have moved on since his day.

Steve Erwin's Dad was little more than a circus showman (I well remember when his Dad's face was on the Billboard), but Steve saw the benefits of giving a nod and a wink to conservationism......whether he did any more than is for another thread.

However his "MATE", the wolf-man", who runs a business supplying wolves etc for films.....actually visited the Tiger temple and seemed to totally condone the operation in a TV program that included this visit. In a "mates world", this would put Nignoy firmly in the apologist camp.

Edited by wilko, 2008-06-25 14:22:18.

[Pierrot]

wilko, on 2008-06-25 15:21:54, said:

It sounds like nignoy is of the old-school. Animal welfare and conservation have moved on since his day.

Steve Erwin's Dad was little more than a circus showman (I well remember when his Dad's face was on the Billboard), but Steve saw the benefits of giving a nod and a wink to conservationism......whether he did any more than is for another thread.

However his "MATE", the wolf-man", who runs a business supplying wolves etc for films.....actually visited the Tiger temple and seemed to totally condone the operation in a TV program that included this visit. In a "mates world", this would put Nignoy firmly in the apologist camp.

    Call me stupid, but I just read the complete thread for the  third time and I still understand what you want us to do.


  You start with a link to an organization who denounces the tiger Temple.  OK.

    You call Nignoy "old school". Fine, progress can be good.

        But from there, where do we go?