119 replies to this topic
Posted 2008-07-13 14:41:00
I know absolutely nothing about the history of the Khmer, but I found this recent article which says, "Preah Vihear, like Angkor Wat and all those other ‘Khmer’ temples, aren’t really Khmer or Cambodian. They were built by an entirely different people called the Khom, who unfortunately are no longer with us and have been replaced by a people who call themselves Cambodians and lay spurious claim to someone else’s heritage. Trouble is, it’s only Thai history that seems to know about these Khom." No idea what sources he has to make the claim though.
Regarding why the 1962-1972 governments didn't appeal, I think it's because Article 61.1 of the ICJ Statute states, "An application for revision of a judgment may be made only when it is based upon the discovery of some fact of such a nature as to be a decisive factor, which fact was, when the judgment was given, unknown to the Court and also to the party claiming revision, always provided that such ignorance was not due to negligence."
So basically an appeal can only take place with new evidence. The law can be an ass sometimes (but not Thai law of course...that could see me put in contempt). 
Posted 2008-07-13 17:46:21
 sriracha john, on 2008-07-13 01:42:16, said:
whatever... he traded a temple for a casino.
this nopeadope is not an idiot like those around him- he is actually very intelligent man with rational reasoning abilities - therefore he is able to clearly understand both sides and make logical decisions. because of having both left and right brain activity he also understand exactly what he did as a choice of his own free will and therefore will burn for it in the seven lower hells, being aware of the process the whole time.
*digicam footage of that'd make a great selling, "Noppadope Rots In hel_l For Eternity", DVD*...
...sarm gao gao baht, buy 2 get 1 free
Maybe we could get a Nong Natt special thrown in for free.
But really I love when they take the special VCDs and then dub Thai music and Karkoke over them. Maybe we could do Noppeadope roasting in the seven lower hells to Lydia singing about her lover who never calls.
Posted 2008-07-13 18:57:21
Just goes to show what an Oxbridge education does to a fellow:
Joker / Buffalo - Kajor Ngorngae by Mor, Krungtepturakit, July 11, 2008
At the top: The image of Siam Foreign Ministry at the world stage meeting
Foreign Minister Noppadon Pattama is portrayed on the left as a "joker" and on the right as a buffalo (considered an insult in the Thai-language world).
Left: Before the meeting
On file he is holding: Khao Preah Vihear
Right: After the meeting!!
More newspaper headlines and editorials - Poojadkuan columns - Editorial cartoon from the southern separatists - Kao Lao cartoons
For cartoon please follow trail to 2Bangkok.com or Krunthepturakit newspaper
While some consider him a product of his British education in the hallowed halls of Oxford, one can see that he clearly believed his own destiny was best placed by serving a single family and abandoning such qualities as honesty, integrity and service to one's nation on leaving Isis. Not a typical graduate I believe, although the label "funny" definitely fits. 
I guess he's quite an ornate buffalo as well. 
Edited by plachon, 2008-07-13 19:00:06.
Posted 2008-07-13 21:41:25
Meerkat, we don't know the exact policy of the previous government regarding the listing, but one thing is sure - Noppadon has changed it, with disastrous results. What would have happened if he let the previous team to continue negotiations is anybody's guess, but one thing is sure - it wouldn't have ended so badly.
It is extremely silly to lay blame on junta's government after Noppadon personally fired their man, took charge, and even patted himself on the back shortly before everything went south.
As for linking this case to Thaksin - it's a fuc_king elephant in the room, Noppadon himself was there on the day Thaksin's investment was announced. But let's pretend (for Prakhanong) that these two men don't know each other.
Lots of people and cultures existed in this land, this particular temple was dedicated to Hindu God Shiva, Thais do not have gods of their own, and neither do Cambodians. There's nothing wrong with calling it a Hindu temple.
The word Hindu didn't exist in those days, btw.
I'm not sure present day Cambodians are the real ancestors of the Khmer civilisation. They could be the people who destroyed it. After all even Angkor Wat was just a meaningless ruin for them for centuries until their figured out they can make money out of it.
Thais, on the other hand, have always kept to their roots, they won't declare themselves jews if they suddenly find an ancient sinagogue here.
Posted 2008-07-13 22:37:08
Plus, on 2008-07-13 21:41:25, said: Meerkat, we don't know the exact policy of the previous government regarding the listing, but one thing is sure - Noppadon has changed it, with disastrous results. What would have happened if he let the previous team to continue negotiations is anybody's guess, but one thing is sure - it wouldn't have ended so badly.
It is extremely silly to lay blame on junta's government after Noppadon personally fired their man, took charge, and even patted himself on the back shortly before everything went south.
As for linking this case to Thaksin - it's a fuc_king elephant in the room, Noppadon himself was there on the day Thaksin's investment was announced. But let's pretend (for Prakhanong) that these two men don't know each other.
Lots of people and cultures existed in this land, this particular temple was dedicated to Hindu God Shiva, Thais do not have gods of their own, and neither do Cambodians. There's nothing wrong with calling it a Hindu temple.
The word Hindu didn't exist in those days, btw.
I'm not sure present day Cambodians are the real ancestors of the Khmer civilisation. They could be the people who destroyed it. After all even Angkor Wat was just a meaningless ruin for them for centuries until their figured out they can make money out of it.
Thais, on the other hand, have always kept to their roots, they won't declare themselves jews if they suddenly find an ancient sinagogue here.
And whats wrong with saying: forget about the past we are doing it together: you have the temple we the stairs...we join and rip off the tourists....here the mcdonalds, there the casino, etc etc as usual....
or you make alone what you want but we don't support it.
As for the evidence linking it to Thaksin.... it is more a stampede of elephants......
Posted 2008-07-13 22:51:35
Plus, on 2008-07-13 21:41:25, said: Meerkat, we don't know the exact policy of the previous government regarding the listing, but one thing is sure - Noppadon has changed it, with disastrous results. What would have happened if he let the previous team to continue negotiations is anybody's guess, but one thing is sure - it wouldn't have ended so badly.
If you don't know what the policy was, how can you know that he changed it? Plus, you were the one that brought up the argument that facts don't matter in this case, not me. The publicly stated policy of the junta was to get the deal done this month with Thai support; Noppadom changed nothing. Cambodia changed their bid so that Thailand couldn't even argue against it (effectively) if they wanted to. I've always said it was too late for any government to delay the listing. I note with a cringe that Samack nicked my point in his explanation today too. I'll send him a bill...
Quote It is extremely silly to lay blame on junta's government after Noppadon personally fired their man, took charge, and even patted himself on the back shortly before everything went south.
Firstly I don't blame the junta, I applaud them. I said if you want to blame someone for the change in policy, blame them rather than this government. Yes Noppadom took over as chief of the panel himself; he's a smarmy git and a media-whore IMO - he wanted the glory. Were he to have suddenly reversed the whole tone of the talks though, don't you think there'd have been an outcry from the others on the team (which included not only the MFA but also the military)? The "damage" if you like was done before his watch, although again I don't consider it "damage".
Quote As for linking this case to Thaksin - it's a fuc_king elephant in the room, Noppadon himself was there on the day Thaksin's investment was announced. But let's pretend (for Prakhanong) that these two men don't know each other.
Thaksin was as bent as a three-bob note like the rest of them IMO but that doesn't mean this was all a fit-up for his benefit. It would mean he was in cahoots with the junta and obviously that doesn't wash. Show me proof - no, show it to the NCCC.
Quote Lots of people and cultures existed in this land, this particular temple was dedicated to Hindu God Shiva, Thais do not have gods of their own, and neither do Cambodians. There's nothing wrong with calling it a Hindu temple.
The word Hindu didn't exist in those days, btw.
I'm not sure present day Cambodians are the real ancestors of the Khmer civilisation. They could be the people who destroyed it. After all even Angkor Wat was just a meaningless ruin for them for centuries until their figured out they can make money out of it.
Thais, on the other hand, have always kept to their roots, they won't declare themselves jews if they suddenly find an ancient sinagogue here.
I mentioned the Khmer now becoming Hindu thing as an example of the press pandering to nationalistic sentiment, nothing more. I've got no beef with those who think that the Temple should have been awarded to Thailand in 1962. I get pissed off with those who repeatedly can't understand that it wasn't and refuse to accept that it's now too late to appeal the matter.
Edited by Meerkat, 2008-07-13 22:54:07.
Posted 2008-07-13 23:02:54
h90, on 2008-07-13 22:37:08, said: And whats wrong with saying: forget about the past we are doing it together: you have the temple we the stairs...we join and rip off the tourists....here the mcdonalds, there the casino, etc etc as usual....
That was effectively the junta/PPP deal.
Quote or you make alone what you want but we don't support it.
That was the deal after the injunction. Cambodia got the listing anyway and Thailand's got what?
Quote As for the evidence linking it to Thaksin.... it is more a stampede of elephants......
Show the evidence to the authorities. Please.
Posted 2008-07-14 07:53:09
REGIONAL PERSPECTIVE
By Kavi Chongkittavorn
Published on July 14, 2008 The Nation
In recent weeks, several Foreign Ministry officials have experienced the utmost humiliation when taxi drivers have refused to take them to their offices on Sri Ayudhya Road. Why? They were labelled "traitors" by the cabbies.
In the 133-year history of the Foreign Ministry, the word "traitor" has been used for the first time to refer to the proud bureaucrats who cherish their long tradition of preserving Thailand's sovereignty and territorial integrity, as well as promoting its national interests, all over the world.
A post-mortem of the ministry's handling of the Preah Vihear Temple case reveals symptoms linked to the credibility of elected officials and the role of public diplomacy. Furthermore, the controversy also shows that the country's foreign-policy decision-making process has changed. It is no longer the domain of a few educated diplomats or elite. Public knowledge and participation, through elected MPs or civil society groups, have become important factors. Proper consultations with all stakeholders are now prerequisites.
It was a curse that Noppadon Pattama, the former lawyer of deposed prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra, was appointed to this prestigious position five months ago. Before that he was an outspoken lawyer defending his boss. Time and again, he praised Thaksin and maintained that he was an innocent man. Even after his appointment, he continued his rhetoric defending Thaksin.
Therefore, Noppadon's political capital was extremely low when he came to the ministry. Instead of augmenting his creditability and fostering public trust, he immediately chose to rail against senior officials who failed to court Thaksin while he was in exile. His first task was pushing for the immediate restoration of Thaksin's diplomatic passport, which was revoked right after the coup. On several occasions, he went overseas in his official capacity to meet with Thaksin, especially in China. 
The choice of a Thai foreign minister these days is crucial. Gone are the days when just any politician can head the ministry. In Thai politics, the foreign affairs portfolio requires a capable and honest person, even though it is not a major or financially rewarding ministry in comparison to commerce, finance, industry and education.
As such, the next foreign minister will face similar scrutiny if Noppadon's successor lacks creditability and is perceived as a Thaksin nominee. According to the latest unconfirmed press reports, the Samak government has Vikrom Khumpairoj, the former Thai ambassador to the UK, in mind for the job. If that were the case, it would be problematic because of his close association with Thaksin, both during and after his tenure. After his retirement, Vikrom went on to look after Thaksin's interests in the UK. Due to the negative precedent set by Noppadon, the new minister would be under a cloud of suspicion, despite his diplomatic experience. Public trust and creditability begins at home.
Thailand will be chairing Asean for the next 18 months, from July 25 of this year until December 31 of next year. It is a small window that can boost Thailand's regional and international standing. Any controversy over the ministerial choice at this juncture would be disastrous to Thailand's foreign policy and leadership role in Asean.
It's a sad but true fact, but the Foreign Ministry's work and professionalism in the past five months has been belittled and unwittingly linked to Noppadon's mediocrity and brinkmanship. The ministry has also lacked public diplomacy. The ministry should have anticipated the fallout long before the World Heritage Committee's decision over the Preah Vihear Temple. After all, this issue came up four years ago when Cambodia first made clear to Thailand its attention to list its national treasure as a world heritage site.
In 2004, both countries set up a subcommittee to develop the temple and surrounding areas to attract tourists. A year later, Cambodia made an unsuccessful bid to have the site included on the world heritage list due to incomplete documents. In 2006, Phnom Penh reapplied and was accepted for consideration during last year's meeting in Christchurch, New Zealand. The Thai delegation succeeded in delaying consideration of the proposal until this year's meeting in Quebec.
A four-year span should have been sufficient for the ministry to have begun a concerted campaign to educate concerned authorities, including the armed forces and the public, about the issues and stakes involved. During this pause, misunderstandings and stereotypes caused by emotional swings, political spin and nationalistic fervour could have been better managed, if not mitigated. Popular debates on Preah Vihear were often misleading and were not based on facts and historical evidence. Thailand should learn from the experience and civilised manners which Singapore and Malaysia handled their 29-year old Pedra Branca dispute which was amicably settled in May by a World Court decision.
" Guess who,s government were in charge during this period and their CEO has now emerged as a prominant investor in the region and is benefiting already from Thailands imput....
The new road for one example is a god send to his and other interested parties who are involved in self interest objectives, "
marshbags observation.
Thailand and Cambodia have 798 kilometres of a shared border. The demarcation effort has started, but it will take years before the issue of overlapping areas near the temple will be taken up. Both countries have so far completed only 48 of the 73 demarcation points. Thailand's border demarcations with neighbours have never been easy. Recurring border disputes are to be expected, especially when bilateral relations are deteriorating as they are now. Both sides need further dialogue.
To be fair, the ministry is capable of dealing with important diplomatic issues and publicising information of Thailand's diplomatic initiatives and accomplishments. Certainly on emotionally charged issues, a better-coordinated media strategy and public diplomacy is crucial in providing a timely dissemination of information and views.
Finally, the role of Parliament and civil society groups cannot be ignored. The Constitution Court ruled the June 18 joint communiqu้ with Cambodia was unconstitutional because it was weighted as a legally binding treaty and should go through parliamentary procedures. After the new charter came into effect last year, the Foreign Ministry and the House Foreign Affairs Committee have yet to meet and work together, as mandated by Article 190, which lists sets of criteria on what decisions and issues need parliamentary vetting and approval. Otherwise, Thai diplomacy would be a murky and dangerous affair. The Constitution Court's ruling on the communiqu้ could be an isolated case if and when the concerned authorities agreed on such consultative frameworks.
As the Asean chair, Thailand would like to transform Asean into a more friendly and people-oriented organisation with broader and deeper participation from civil society sectors. Dozens of programmes are planned to enhance dialogue and cooperation between Asean-based civil society groups and Asean leaders. This is part of the ongoing campaign to materialise the third pillar of Asean community - a Sociocultural Community in 2015.
Unquote
marshbags 
Edited by marshbags, 2008-07-14 08:09:42.
Posted 2008-07-14 09:42:46
Posted 2008-07-14 10:11:49
[quote name='Tony Clifton' post='2085542' date='2008-07-14 09:42:46'][/quote]
That's ok. There's another list of Mission Accomplished being promulgated...
[quote name='sriracha john' post='1476149' date='2007-08-14 18:44:47'][quote name='jomama' date='2007-08-14 17:20:39']Whether these specific charges are true or not, one statement is:
Saam nahm naa[/quote]
Indeed.... he started it all himself...
[quote name='sriracha john' post='1333629' date='2007-05-30 23:59:27'][quote name='sriracha john' post='1333560' date='2007-05-30 23:27:32']Mission Impossible through the years on Thaivisa....  [quote name='sriracha john' post='925499' date='2006-10-03 13:09:48'][quote name='sriracha john' post='739600' date='2006-05-08 13:43:32'][quote name='sriracha john' post='707882' date='2006-04-07 10:38:23'] Thaksin Resigns as Prime Minister
Time to recharge the batteries now that mission #1 has been accomplished. ("Mission Impossible" was what many people thought)[/quote] Thai court rejects April elections
Constitutional court calls for new parliamentary poll
Another month... another mission accomplished.... #2 and counting....
[/quote]
Thaksin Resigns As Thai Rak Thai Leader
Mission Accomplished #3
[/quote]
Thai Rak Thai Party Dissolved
Mission Accomplished #4
[/quote]
Thaksin Banned From Politics For Five Years
Mission Accomplished #5
[/quote]
Arrest Warrants Issued For Former PM Thaksin And His Wife
Mission Accomplished #6
[/quote]
#7 is coming up...
Posted 2008-07-14 15:01:10
Quote
Noppadon underemoniously removed chief negotiator appointed during junta times, that's not enough evidence of change of policy for you?
Posted 2008-07-14 15:43:10
We can debate who did what and when but it is a very academic debate. The telling comment is the one about cabbies refusing rides to "traitors". That is where the public debate is at. The policy is linked to the Samak government and Noppadol. It is not linked to any previous government in the public eyes. As always in politcs it is so important to win the PR and marketing war. This usually has nothing to do with the truth whatever the policy. In the past TRT were so good at the spin. This time their PPP successor has made a mess of its marketing job.
Posted 2008-07-14 15:45:44
Read the Supinya interview in today's Nation. A good critique of the hyper-conservative and nationalistic PAD and their ASTV mouthpiece.
Posted 2008-07-14 16:05:50
hammered, on 2008-07-14 15:43:10, said: We can debate who did what and when but it is a very academic debate. The telling comment is the one about cabbies refusing rides to "traitors". That is where the public debate is at. The policy is linked to the Samak government and Noppadol. It is not linked to any previous government in the public eyes. As always in politcs it is so important to win the PR and marketing war. This usually has nothing to do with the truth whatever the policy. In the past TRT were so good at the spin. This time their PPP successor has made a mess of its marketing job.
with a whole new Preah Vihear-ish issue around the corner.... and one less arbitrary.
http://www.thaivisa....=...t&p=2086315
Posted 2008-07-14 16:09:47
Meerkat, on 2008-07-13 23:02:54, said: h90, on 2008-07-13 22:37:08, said: And whats wrong with saying: forget about the past we are doing it together: you have the temple we the stairs...we join and rip off the tourists....here the mcdonalds, there the casino, etc etc as usual....
That was effectively the junta/PPP deal. It was listed as world heritage of Thailand and Cambodia???
Quote or you make alone what you want but we don't support it.
That was the deal after the injunction. Cambodia got the listing anyway and Thailand's got what? Nothing as planed
Quote As for the evidence linking it to Thaksin.... it is more a stampede of elephants......
Show the evidence to the authorities. Please. yes PAD is doing it already
Posted 2008-07-14 16:19:54
from Reuters:
The People's Alliance for Democracy (PAD) handed over a petition accusing the cabinet of agreeing to cede land to Cambodia in return for business concessions for ousted Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra.
The charge has been denied by Thaksin and the government in Cambodia
The PAD petition accused Thaksin, who was ousted in a 2006 coup, of conspiring to cede Thai territory for his personal gain.
NCCC Secretary-General Saravuth Maenasavet told reporters the agency would decide on Tuesday whether it would investigate the Preah Vihear case.
If it believed the cabinet broke the law, the NCCC would forward its findings to the Supreme Court for a ruling which could lead to the government's impeachment by the Senate.
Posted 2008-07-14 17:52:19
sriracha john, on 2008-07-14 16:19:54, said: from Reuters:
The People's Alliance for Democracy (PAD) handed over a petition accusing the cabinet of agreeing to cede land to Cambodia in return for business concessions for ousted Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra.
The charge has been denied by Thaksin and the government in Cambodia
The PAD petition accused Thaksin, who was ousted in a 2006 coup, of conspiring to cede Thai territory for his personal gain.
NCCC Secretary-General Saravuth Maenasavet told reporters the agency would decide on Tuesday whether it would investigate the Preah Vihear case.
If it believed the cabinet broke the law, the NCCC would forward its findings to the Supreme Court for a ruling which could lead to the government's impeachment by the Senate.
Somewhere there is an irony that the highly nationalistic Thai love Thai project that brought us the ministry of culture, no spaghetti straps and social crusades ends being harpooned on a spear of nationalism. Lets just hope it doesnt get too out of control.
Posted 2008-07-14 17:57:23
sunrise07, on 2008-07-14 15:45:44, said: Read the Supinya interview in today's Nation. A good critique of the hyper-conservative and nationalistic PAD and their ASTV mouthpiece.
Here is the link:
http://www.nationmul...al_30078016.php
It is worth a read in full imho and is as critical of PTV and the government as ASTV. In summary she is woreid about the freedom of media and of the responsibility of media that is free to do the right thing.
Posted 2008-07-14 19:04:25
hammered, on 2008-07-14 17:52:19, said: sriracha john, on 2008-07-14 16:19:54, said: from Reuters:
The People's Alliance for Democracy (PAD) handed over a petition accusing the cabinet of agreeing to cede land to Cambodia in return for business concessions for ousted Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra.
The charge has been denied by Thaksin and the government in Cambodia
The PAD petition accused Thaksin, who was ousted in a 2006 coup, of conspiring to cede Thai territory for his personal gain.
NCCC Secretary-General Saravuth Maenasavet told reporters the agency would decide on Tuesday whether it would investigate the Preah Vihear case.
If it believed the cabinet broke the law, the NCCC would forward its findings to the Supreme Court for a ruling which could lead to the government's impeachment by the Senate.
Somewhere there is an irony that the highly nationalistic Thai love Thai project that brought us the ministry of culture, no spaghetti straps and social crusades ends being harpooned on a spear of nationalism. Lets just hope it doesnt get too out of control.
I worry for the spaghetti straps 
Posted 2008-07-28 14:54:42
Siripon, on 2008-07-10 08:54:57, said: Wonderful news, 2 of Thaksin's minions gone in a few weeks. His tenure was a disgrace from the start, rushing to return the red passport, rushing to change the number to satisfy his paymaster, rushing to please Hun Sen to please his paymaster, what an absolute disgrace.
By the way, will Watana join Kamnan Poh in hiding in Cambodia? Will Thaksin be joining them soon?
Well, please explain whenever any new item is posted somebody has to moan about Thaksin.... Isn't this another case and should be viewed concerning the dispute with Campuchea; and World-Heritage-Sites (as this Temple wasn't pronounced as such by the WHC and not by the UNESCO)? THINK....
Edited by Sturbuc, 2008-07-28 14:57:08.
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