127 replies to this topic
Posted 2008-08-21 14:36:55
 esprit, on 2008-08-21 14:27:01, said:
younghusband, on 2008-08-21 11:01:21, said: Plus, on 2008-08-20 22:24:48, said: PAD's demonstration outside British embassy was very timely.
The UK will not be able to hush it under the carpet.
I'm not sure the UK would have any interest in doing so.The British are used to unruly and unrepresentative mobs outside their embassies, including one in Beijing during the cultural revolution when the rabble hung the ambassador's cat.
As I have mentioned before the British Government will be very well aware of the PAD - its undemocratic agenda, its unsavoury leadership, and lack of national support.
They are most probably very symphathetic insofar as the UK government has an unelected leader who himself refused to seek a mandate.
As for political asylum being granted it appears unlikely given the circumstances and also the requirement that it must be sought in the first instance on entering, not almost 2 years later owing to him, some say, of the intent to protect his assets in the UK. His defence that the Thai legal system is "stacked" against him his somewhat strange when the following day he launched a defamation lawsuit against PAD leaders the following day in Thailand's courts.
You make a very important point re. claiming asylum on first entry. If Thaksin is given asylum then the UK sets a new precident opening the flood gates for future cases and possibly retrospective appeals.
Posted 2008-08-21 14:56:31
whatsoever, on 2008-08-21 07:36:55, said: esprit, on 2008-08-21 14:27:01, said: younghusband, on 2008-08-21 11:01:21, said: Plus, on 2008-08-20 22:24:48, said: PAD's demonstration outside British embassy was very timely.
The UK will not be able to hush it under the carpet.
I'm not sure the UK would have any interest in doing so.The British are used to unruly and unrepresentative mobs outside their embassies, including one in Beijing during the cultural revolution when the rabble hung the ambassador's cat.
As I have mentioned before the British Government will be very well aware of the PAD - its undemocratic agenda, its unsavoury leadership, and lack of national support.
They are most probably very symphathetic insofar as the UK government has an unelected leader who himself refused to seek a mandate.
As for political asylum being granted it appears unlikely given the circumstances and also the requirement that it must be sought in the first instance on entering, not almost 2 years later owing to him, some say, of the intent to protect his assets in the UK. His defence that the Thai legal system is "stacked" against him his somewhat strange when the following day he launched a defamation lawsuit against PAD leaders the following day in Thailand's courts.
You make a very important point re. claiming asylum on first entry. If Thaksin is given asylum then the UK sets a new precident opening the flood gates for future cases and possibly retrospective appeals.
Absolutely. In spite of all the talk here about the rights and wrongs of giving Taksin asylum, the law in the Uk is precedent based, completely unlike Thailand. He won't get it.
Posted 2008-08-21 15:44:21
sriracha john, on 2008-08-21 11:06:09, said: sriracha john, on 2008-08-21 10:02:14, said: Watchara said Thaksin had assigned a legal team to file libel and document forgery charges against five PAD leaders, for posting arrest warrants for him and his wife at various locations. Thaksin might also sue the Royal Thai Police Office for overstepping its authority, he said.
Sue-happy, but courtroom-shy, Police Lieutenant Colonel Thaksin is now even considering the Royal Thai Police? 
Quote [unnamed foes were meddling in the judicial system] "to finish off myself and my family".
"These are my political enemies. They don't care about the rule of law, facts, or internationally-recognized due process,"
- Thaksin Shinawatra's fax to the Supreme Court / Aug. 10, 2008
So the legal system is rigged against him but he continues to use the legal system to sue others? No hypocrisy there, just normal double dealing? Seems like the legal system was just fine and he was quite content to use it until his wife lost the first case.
Posted 2008-08-21 15:53:04
Protesters urge Thailand to strip Thaksin
BANGKOK (AFP today) — About 1,000 anti-government protesters rallied Thursday in front of the foreign ministry to demand that authorities strip ousted prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra and his wife.
The protesters from the People's Alliance for Democracy (PAD) marched under a banner showing pictures of Thaksin and his wife Pojaman, emblazoned with the words "Most Wanted."
"We demand the Foreign Minister and the foreign ministry immediately revoke every type of passport belonging to Thaksin and Pojaman, who are criminal fugitives," said protest leader Sondhi Limthongkul.
The foreign ministry has already said that it will revoke Thaksin's diplomatic passport, but he and Pojaman would still have their regular passports.
The protesters said they want the foreign ministry to strip the couple of all of their travel documents after they skipped bail last week and fled to Britain to escape corruption charges in Bangkok.
Thaksin's lawyer says the couple will seek political asylum in Britain, where Thaksin owns the Premier League club Manchester City.
"Thaksin is a criminal who is avoiding an arrest warrant issued by the court. Why can he still have all kinds of passports," said Somsak Kosaisuk, another protest leader.
The protesters held a similar rally Tuesday in front of the British embassy to demand that London send the couple home to stand trial.
*Edit: With apologies... the phrase "of their passports" was overlooked when copying and is missing from the end of the headline and from the end of the first sentence. Please insert them in when you read those passages because it changes the context a bit.
Edited by sriracha john, 2008-08-21 15:56:27.
Posted 2008-08-21 16:01:03
Plus, on 2008-08-21 08:43:42, said: Public spotlight that PAD brings to politics makes it very difficult for anyone to deviate from the prescribed course of actions even if they wanted to. The decisions are made on the streets and by the civil society, not by backroom deal makers.
I wonder where they were when the militairy took control, oh yeah that's right, they had their mission accomplished with help of the militairy.
I would like them to seek justice for the Thai People that democratically choose a government but were made irrelvant by those criminals that carried out the coup, but of course they only want justice for one person and one person only. Why are these criminals not on trail, surely they have commited greater crimes then the crimes that Thaksin and his wife have been charged with.
Democracy has nothing do with with decisions being made on the street, and I hope for the sake of Thailand, they are not made by the PAD. A good example is the Cambodian Temple crisis. Where a perfectly sane deal has been stopped, because the said minister was giving away territory to Cambodia. Everyone but the PAD knows that this was certainly not the case, you cannot give away what you don't own.
Posted 2008-08-21 16:38:51
sjaak327, on 2008-08-21 16:01:03, said: Plus, on 2008-08-21 08:43:42, said: Public spotlight that PAD brings to politics makes it very difficult for anyone to deviate from the prescribed course of actions even if they wanted to. The decisions are made on the streets and by the civil society, not by backroom deal makers.
I wonder where they were when the militairy took control, oh yeah that's right, they had their mission accomplished with help of the militairy.
I would like them to seek justice for the Thai People that democratically choose a government but were made irrelvant by those criminals that carried out the coup, but of course they only want justice for one person and one person only. Why are these criminals not on trail, surely they have commited greater crimes then the crimes that Thaksin and his wife have been charged with.
Democracy has nothing do with with decisions being made on the street, and I hope for the sake of Thailand, they are not made by the PAD. A good example is the Cambodian Temple crisis. Where a perfectly sane deal has been stopped, because the said minister was giving away territory to Cambodia. Everyone but the PAD knows that this was certainly not the case, you cannot give away what you don't own.
Sjaak327. Although I totally agree with you and Younghusband it seems that you are pissing in the wind on this topic. There are some people that have been so completely duped by the activities of the PAD that they have gone too far to change tack now without a complete loss of face. They will stick to their erroneus position regardless of any obvious truths you may bring up. Their position can be summed up briefly as :
1) Distaste for democracy. The rural poor are too ignorant to have a vote
2) Support for military intervention if it threatens the established old guard.
3) Supportive of individuals using politics as a vehicle for personal revenge
4) Selective justice. Prosecuting some but ignoring the crimes of others.
Taksins application for asylum may cause the British govournment a little embarresment but not enough for them to evict him to face what is so obviously a showcase trial. Considering all the other asylum seekers with even more dubious credentials only the naive will be expecting to see Taksin back any time soon.
Posted 2008-08-21 17:07:23
Bangyai, on 2008-08-21 16:38:51, said: sjaak327, on 2008-08-21 16:01:03, said: Plus, on 2008-08-21 08:43:42, said: Public spotlight that PAD brings to politics makes it very difficult for anyone to deviate from the prescribed course of actions even if they wanted to. The decisions are made on the streets and by the civil society, not by backroom deal makers.
I wonder where they were when the militairy took control, oh yeah that's right, they had their mission accomplished with help of the militairy.
I would like them to seek justice for the Thai People that democratically choose a government but were made irrelvant by those criminals that carried out the coup, but of course they only want justice for one person and one person only. Why are these criminals not on trail, surely they have commited greater crimes then the crimes that Thaksin and his wife have been charged with.
Democracy has nothing do with with decisions being made on the street, and I hope for the sake of Thailand, they are not made by the PAD. A good example is the Cambodian Temple crisis. Where a perfectly sane deal has been stopped, because the said minister was giving away territory to Cambodia. Everyone but the PAD knows that this was certainly not the case, you cannot give away what you don't own.
Sjaak327. Although I totally agree with you and Younghusband it seems that you are pissing in the wind on this topic. There are some people that have been so completely duped by the activities of the PAD that they have gone too far to change tack now without a complete loss of face. They will stick to their erroneus position regardless of any obvious truths you may bring up. Their position can be summed up briefly as :
1) Distaste for democracy. The rural poor are too ignorant to have a vote
2) Support for military intervention if it threatens the established old guard.
3) Supportive of individuals using politics as a vehicle for personal revenge
4) Selective justice. Prosecuting some but ignoring the crimes of others.
Taksins application for asylum may cause the British govournment a little embarresment but not enough for them to evict him to face what is so obviously a showcase trial. Considering all the other asylum seekers with even more dubious credentials only the naive will be expecting to see Taksin back any time soon.
Well said.
Doesn't matter which side "wins" either way though.
Posted 2008-08-21 18:00:41
jayjayjayjay, on 2008-08-21 07:40:59, said: mrtoad, on 2008-08-21 00:25:05, said: Toxin is like a little boy with a ball. He's okay if he's winning the game, but when he loses possesion he cries foul and wants to take it home. Shame that the UK immigration weren't as stringet with Pokamon as the Thai authorities where with Glitter. Whilst there's difference in offences, there's no difference in culpability. It's about time Thailand opened up the box and investigated some of the other stuff that Toxin has been accused of, but it's probably unlikely, just as much as Thailand genuinely pushing for extradition.
Sorry but not a realistic comparison.
One did work in public office, was elected there by a majority more than once, and was removed by the gun.
The other has made a life of abusing underage girls................. I hope your moral is better than this!
The only way Taxsin is going to get a fair trial is if the majority of Thai people believe in the system he is to be tried under. That is not the case as the gun is still present.
I think that you misunderstand the premeise of my post. In no way did I compare the offences as they incomparable. However, there is clearly an issue about immigration policy.
In no way did I condone the abuse of underage kids, which I believe you're trying to alude to that I did in your attempt to twisy my post.
If you look carefully, my main issue is that the UK have allowed entry to a bail jumping fugitive (his wife), she has been tried and convicted of a particular crime. I do not believe that she was elected by the people or removed from office by a coup. Maybe you can enlighten me?
Edited by mrtoad, 2008-08-21 18:12:18.
Posted 2008-08-21 20:00:07
whatsoever, on 2008-08-21 14:30:35, said: The Uk will not return Thaksin & Co. due to Thailands poor record on human rights abuse. Mr Thaksin will be able to prove without question that - indeed during his time in office their were infact several thousand people summarily executed in the name of the 'war on drugs'. 
that would indeed be ironic, if the UK decided that since Thailand's justice system failed alleged drug dealers in the war of drugs, what with 2000+ executed with due process, that therefore it would not be a safe place to send Thaksin back to given that he too could be a victim of a justice system which clearly shoots first and thinks after.
If he can pull that one off, I will be in awe of his bulls&*t skills, I am already pretty much in awe, but this would be taking it to an entirely new 'irony died when they gave Arafat and Kissinger peace prizes' kind of way.
For goodness sake the tax evasion was a open and shut case no matter how you package it; send his wife to jail. kick her to the cuuuuuuuuuuuuurb girlfriend. JERRY JERRY JERRY
Posted 2008-08-24 09:23:34
Pojaman convicted and fled away from the justice of Thailand is the fact. UK should have no reason to deny sending her back. this is very obvious.
Thaksin felt that he will lose the case that coming in September, and many more others.
He actually did a lot of crimes that PAD and most Thais won't let it go away.
Hope UK would do the right thing by sending them back to the justice.
Hope UK won't be a place for wrong-doing people from other countries(anymore).
Edited by alenhan, 2008-08-24 09:25:52.
Posted 2008-08-24 10:01:41
[quote name='sjaak327' post='2159394' date='2008-08-21 16:01:03'][quote name='Plus' post='2159100' date='2008-08-21 08:43:42']Public spotlight that PAD brings to politics makes it very difficult for anyone to deviate from the prescribed course of actions even if they wanted to. The decisions are made on the streets and by the civil society, not by backroom deal makers.[/quote]
I wonder where they were when the militairy took control, oh yeah that's right, they had their mission accomplished with help of the militairy.
[/quote]
There were back in the "barracks" for six months. PAD stopped their rallies in the run up to the failed April elections.
[quote]I would like them to seek justice for the Thai People that democratically choose a government but were made irrelvant by those criminals that carried out the coup, but of course they only want justice for one person and one person only. Why are these criminals not on trail, surely they have commited greater crimes then the crimes that Thaksin and his wife have been charged with.[/quote]
At the moment of the coup there was no democratically elected government, no parlament, no senate. There was a "caretaker" government that consitutionally was supposed to last for three months only, and it was headed by a PM who went back on his very public promise to stay away from politics.
[quote]Democracy has nothing do with with decisions being made on the street, and I hope for the sake of Thailand, they are not made by the PAD. A good example is the Cambodian Temple crisis. Where a perfectly sane deal has been stopped, because the said minister was giving away territory to Cambodia. Everyone but the PAD knows that this was certainly not the case, you cannot give away what you don't own.[/quote]
You can present your arguments in the relevant thread, in short, Noppadon gave away the historical value of the land and communities on the Thai side of the border and put a seven country commitee in charge of disputed territories that Thais claim as their own.
[quote name='Bangyai' post='2159482' date='2008-08-21 16:38:51']1) Distaste for democracy. The rural poor are too ignorant to have a vote
2) Support for military intervention if it threatens the established old guard.
3) Supportive of individuals using politics as a vehicle for personal revenge
4) Selective justice. Prosecuting some but ignoring the crimes of others.[/quote]
Strawman arguments - all your points are made up by yourself.
Among PAD supporters on this board:
1. I don't know anyone who rejects the results of the recent elections
2. I don't know anyone who thinks the coup was staged to protect the old guard
3. I don't know anyone who thinks that Sondhi is driven only by his personal revenge and doesn't believe in his stated cause
4. I don't know anyone who doesn't acknowledge any of the countless lawsuit against Thaksin's opponents
Posted 2008-08-24 12:31:36
steveromagnino, on 2008-08-21 20:00:07, said: whatsoever, on 2008-08-21 14:30:35, said: The Uk will not return Thaksin & Co. due to Thailands poor record on human rights abuse. Mr Thaksin will be able to prove without question that - indeed during his time in office their were infact several thousand people summarily executed in the name of the 'war on drugs'.
that would indeed be ironic, if the UK decided that since Thailand's justice system failed alleged drug dealers in the war of drugs, what with 2000+ executed with due process, that therefore it would not be a safe place to send Thaksin back to given that he too could be a victim of a justice system which clearly shoots first and thinks after.
If he can pull that one off, I will be in awe of his bulls&*t skills, I am already pretty much in awe, but this would be taking it to an entirely new 'irony died when they gave Arafat and Kissinger peace prizes' kind of way.
For goodness sake the tax evasion was a open and shut case no matter how you package it; send his wife to jail. kick her to the cuuuuuuuuuuuuurb girlfriend. JERRY JERRY JERRY
I wonder if Thaksin avoids those countries where anybody from any country who has committed human rights abuses can be tried under local law?
Posted 2008-08-24 13:25:19
[quote name='Plus' post='2164527' date='2008-08-24 10:01:41'][quote name='sjaak327' post='2159394' date='2008-08-21 16:01:03'][quote name='Plus' post='2159100' date='2008-08-21 08:43:42']Public spotlight that PAD brings to politics makes it very difficult for anyone to deviate from the prescribed course of actions even if they wanted to. The decisions are made on the streets and by the civil society, not by backroom deal makers.[/quote]
I wonder where they were when the militairy took control, oh yeah that's right, they had their mission accomplished with help of the militairy.
[/quote]
There were back in the "barracks" for six months. PAD stopped their rallies in the run up to the failed April elections.[/quote]
For a group which (at least originally) described themselves as pro-democracy, their lack of protest post-coup was deafening. They even disbanded two days afterwards (and disbanded the political party they [url="http://nationmultimedia.com/2006/05/17/headlines/headlines_30004216.php"]set up in May[/url]). Sounds like "mission accomplished" to me. Oh, it wasn't "mission accomplished", it was "[url="http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/200609/21/eng20060921_304981.html"]goal accomplished[/url]"...
[quote][quote]I would like them to seek justice for the Thai People that democratically choose a government but were made irrelvant by those criminals that carried out the coup, but of course they only want justice for one person and one person only. Why are these criminals not on trail, surely they have commited greater crimes then the crimes that Thaksin and his wife have been charged with.[/quote]
At the moment of the coup there was no democratically elected government, no parlament, no senate. There was a "caretaker" government that consitutionally was supposed to last for three months only, and it was headed by a PM who went back on his very public promise to stay away from politics.[/quote]
The courts were asked by the highest power in the land to sort out the political void; not the army. The army, contrary to the PAD's "New Politics" farce, should have no part to play in politics, and coups are pure and simple treason (until you change the law ex post facto of course).
[quote][quote]Democracy has nothing do with with decisions being made on the street, and I hope for the sake of Thailand, they are not made by the PAD. A good example is the Cambodian Temple crisis. Where a perfectly sane deal has been stopped, because the said minister was giving away territory to Cambodia. Everyone but the PAD knows that this was certainly not the case, you cannot give away what you don't own.[/quote]
You can present your arguments in the relevant thread, in short, Noppadon gave away the historical value of the land and communities on the Thai side of the border and put a seven country commitee in charge of disputed territories that Thais claim as their own.[/quote]
The original plan included provision for a Thai-Cambodian team to manage the disputed areas for their mutual benefit; the seven country committee was only proposed after the PAD and allies forced Thailand to withdraw the plan. You know this, and admitted yourself at the time that the original plan was better than the mess we've now got. To now try and imply that it was Noppadol who has wilfully put Thai territory under foreign control is a distortion of the truth in context. It's exactly the kind of half-truth the PAD use to try and stir up nationalistic fervour to their own ends; the ouster of the democratically elected government.
[quote][quote post='2159482' date='2008-08-21 16:38:51']1) Distaste for democracy. The rural poor are too ignorant to have a vote
2) Support for military intervention if it threatens the established old guard.
3) Supportive of individuals using politics as a vehicle for personal revenge
4) Selective justice. Prosecuting some but ignoring the crimes of others.[/quote]
Strawman arguments - all your points are made up by yourself.
Among PAD supporters on this board:
1. I don't know anyone who rejects the results of the recent elections
2. I don't know anyone who thinks the coup was staged to protect the old guard
3. I don't know anyone who thinks that Sondhi is driven only by his personal revenge and doesn't believe in his stated cause
4. I don't know anyone who doesn't acknowledge any of the countless lawsuit against Thaksin's opponents
[/quote]
1) The PAD's vision of "New Politics" is regressive. It is designed to limit the power of the rural voters (or as you so poetically call them, "[url="http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/-t207950.html&view=findpost&p=2164482"]truly fuc_ked up people[/url]") who they feel do not deserve an equal vote to the rest of the population. As to your point, there have been plenty of comments and implications on the board by PAD supporters [url="http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/-t195690.html&view=findpost&p=2044071"]rejecting the elections[/url] as bought rather than won.
2) "New Politics" seeks to take control of the military away from the government and place the government under the military, enshrining it the power to take over if certain vague conditions are met. What's the last coup got to do with it?
3) Sondhi's involvement in politics only started after his nose was pushed out of Thaksin's trough. Was it the only reason? No, probably not. But would Sondhi have become a "champion of democracy" had that not happened? Hmm...
4) Where has the PAD been campaigning for justice against anybody bar its political foes? What has your comment got to do with the original point?
The PAD had a certain amount of legitimacy in the beginning when its role was to highlight some of the abuses of power within the TRT government (although as stated, IMO it was started only after Sondhi and Thaksin fell out). It has now morphed into some kind of nationalist, seditious, oligarchic monster; I'm pretty surprised that some of those who railed against (perceived or actual) anti-democratic practices of politicians in the past can stand behind the even more anti-democratic proposals of this lot. It beggars belief.
As to those who hold no love for democracy, fair enough. Then it just becomes an agree-to-differ issue on the merits of various forms of government.
Posted 2008-08-24 13:39:33
Meerkat, you are answering arguments that I have not made.
I spoke about PAD supporters on this board, not every single speaker at their rallies for the past three years, and certainly not the "new politics".
On the temple issue, the original plan, agreed on in junta's time, included listing of the ENTIRE site, and Thais walked off when Cambodians insisted that land on the Thai side has no value. Noppadon concurred, completely reversing Thailand previous stance.
The possibility of the committee management of the adjoining areas that have been excluded from the listing by Noppadon is one of the negative outcomes for Thailand.
Posted 2008-08-24 14:06:39
Now Thaksin has been advised not to attend the Man City's home games, citing fears for his personal safety; surely the Thai government can argue England is clearly unsafe for him and he needs to be extradited swiftly.
Or will he seek asylum in Bermuda, claiming threats on his life from irate Man City fans?
Posted 2008-08-24 14:06:44
Plus, on 2008-08-24 13:39:33, said: Meerkat, you are answering arguments that I have not made.
I spoke about PAD supporters on this board, not every single speaker at their rallies for the past three years, and certainly not the "new politics".
On the temple issue, the original plan, agreed on in junta's time, included listing of the ENTIRE site, and Thais walked off when Cambodians insisted that land on the Thai side has no value. Noppadon concurred, completely reversing Thailand previous stance.
The possibility of the committee management of the adjoining areas that have been excluded from the listing by Noppadon is one of the negative outcomes for Thailand.
Sorry this won't really do, that is distancing yourself from the PAD's policy simply when it suits you to do so.It's quite clear what the PAD leadership's agenda is and frankly what PAD supporters say on this forum is neither here nor there.Sceptics such as myself have tried to engage with you as an articulate voice with a coherent vision albeit one with which I disagree.I cannot say the same for the rest of the PAD supporters on this forum, and have sometimes wondered whether you are entirely comfortable with these travelling companions.In any event your distaste for democracy and open contempt for Thailand's rural majority has long been evident as has your preference for authoritarian rule bolstered by military intervention where necessary, very much the PAD leadership agenda.
I have increasingly come to see parallels between PAD and Oswald (father of Max!) Mosley's Blackshirts.I wouldn't want to push the fascist comparison too far though there are certainly some.I had more in mind the fact that initially some very decent middle class people gave support in the difficult conditions of the 1930's, depressed economic conditions and incompetent (or worse) politicians.Many, rather like the PAD rank and file, were rather unsophisticated politically.As time went on the race hatred and reactionary nature of the Blackshirt leadership became evident and the middle class support drifted away.
Posted 2008-08-24 14:06:46
Hey Plus, you have been argued down to the ground in thread after thread, specially by Meerkat, but also by others. You have gone so far that you even call the majority of Thailands voters "truly fuc_ked up people"  , why don't you just give it up? Have this become some sort of "face issue" for you?
Posted 2008-08-24 14:47:13
Crushdepth, on 2008-08-20 17:56:02, said: Hope UK does not agree - he's being prosecuted not persecuted!
Exactly. 
Posted 2008-08-24 14:47:53
younghusband, on 2008-08-24 14:06:44, said: Plus, on 2008-08-24 13:39:33, said: Meerkat, you are answering arguments that I have not made.
I spoke about PAD supporters on this board, not every single speaker at their rallies for the past three years, and certainly not the "new politics".
On the temple issue, the original plan, agreed on in junta's time, included listing of the ENTIRE site, and Thais walked off when Cambodians insisted that land on the Thai side has no value. Noppadon concurred, completely reversing Thailand previous stance.
The possibility of the committee management of the adjoining areas that have been excluded from the listing by Noppadon is one of the negative outcomes for Thailand.
Sorry this won't really do, that is distancing yourself from the PAD's policy simply when it suits you to do so.It's quite clear what the PAD leadership's agenda is and frankly what PAD supporters say on this forum is neither here nor there.Sceptics such as myself have tried to engage with you as an articulate voice with a coherent vision albeit one with which I disagree.I cannot say the same for the rest of the PAD supporters on this forum, and have sometimes wondered whether you are entirely comfortable with these travelling companions.In any event your distaste for democracy and open contempt for Thailand's rural majority has long been evident as has your preference for authoritarian rule bolstered by military intervention where necessary, very much the PAD leadership agenda.
I have increasingly come to see parallels between PAD and Oswald (father of Max!) Mosley's Blackshirts.I wouldn't want to push the fascist comparison too far though there are certainly some.I had more in mind the fact that initially some very decent middle class people gave support in the difficult conditions of the 1930's, depressed economic conditions and incompetent (or worse) politicians.Many, rather like the PAD rank and file, were rather unsophisticated politically.As time went on the race hatred and reactionary nature of the Blackshirt leadership became evident and the middle class support drifted away.
There are rumours of tensions and possible splits in the PAD leadership over future policy.
If we are going to compare the PAD to facists we alo shouldnt overlook Mr. Samak's well known facist past. That is part of the problem right now a choice of right or right or extreme right or extreme right or ultra nationalist or ultra nationalist. There is no left or even center unless one notices a couple of powerless Democrat MPs who seem centrist but certainly not left. even the leftists in PPP hav ebeen both smashed by the system and totally abandoned by their own party unless you consdier Surapong a leftists and having recently discussed this with leftists I dont think they would. And both street demonstration organisers and up country MPs build their popularity on a base of extreme nationalistic rhetoric with a good few doses of xenophobia to the other within the nation or from some other province as much as anything else.
What was it Giles said? The PAD have morphed into a proto facist organization and the government is led by an extreme rightist and packed with gangsters and sleazy politicians. The future sure doesnt look bright for Thailand.
I notice the world bank has said investment in Thailand lags because of politcal instability and a lack of skilled workers. Now even if we see the end of political instability we still face the fact that the market rquires better educated workers for the country to miove on and yet that diametrially opposes the interests of whoever wins this current little fracas or whoever manages to cobble together a sleazy deal. In many ways if the courts had been able to deal with Thaksin as harshly as now but before the coup and someone like Somkid had taken over the whole future would probably look rosier. However, it is easy to judge with hindsight.
Posted 2008-08-24 14:51:19
I don't know some details about what PAD is proposing, though they're not now calling for a coup d'etat.
In the big picture of things, I think that's because Thailand has been so mismanaged in recent years, that a sort of 'standing demonstration' is a good idea. If PAD supporters (people who have differing ideas of how gov't should conduct its business) felt they had a viable means to make their voices heard, there would be less, or perhaps no sustained protests. As it is, current majority gov't appears to be focusing all their energy on either doing as little legislation as possible, or if they do anything at all, it's just to save their skins and enrich themselves.
How much governance or legislation has been implemented (in the past several years) - that tangibly benefits ordinary Thai people? None.
It's like Nixon administration when they were bunkered down and hamstrung about Watergate. The opposite is someone like Bill Clinton who used to come to work every day - seeking ways to dynamically and effectively deal with issues that would palpably help his constituents. That sort of attitude is devoid in Thai political circles. Thai politicians are a 'mai pen rai' bunch of selfish self-enriching no shows.
Posted 2008-08-24 14:56:45
younghusband, on 2008-08-24 14:06:44, said: I have increasingly come to see parallels between PAD and Oswald (father of Max!) Mosley's Blackshirts.I wouldn't want to push the fascist comparison too far though there are certainly some.I had more in mind the fact that initially some very decent middle class people gave support in the difficult conditions of the 1930's, depressed economic conditions and incompetent (or worse) politicians.Many, rather like the PAD rank and file, were rather unsophisticated politically.As time went on the race hatred and reactionary nature of the Blackshirt leadership became evident and the middle class support drifted away.
Oh... see here we go!
So the "Voters" from the rural areas who have sold their voting rights for a mere 200-500 Baht and promises followed by promises, they are "sophisticated, political fit and informed people", are they?
And nobody out of their ranks just recently went as far as mobbing and clubbing peaceful protesters of the PAD?
Mr.T's orders the war on drugs had several thousand people killed in cold blood, no evidence, no justice, same with the incident where nearly 100 demonstrators from down south, "suffocated" on army trucks, AFTER their arrest, and you come up and compare the PAD with "the black shirt" come on, you wanna be taken serious, bark up another tree, keep trying to belittle the xx wrongdoings of the former ex-PM and his cronies, keep comparing them with "lambs of innocence" and the opposition with the wolves.
How is your view on Mr.Mugabe, on the Military Junta in Burma, in North Korea, are they angels too?
.....on Payroll or freelancer trying to impress the PR office of the ousted ex PM fugitive, eager to became recognized for a pay rise ?
keep on trying
Posted 2008-08-24 15:01:52
Plus, on 2008-08-24 05:01:41, said: There were back in the "barracks" for six months. PAD stopped their rallies in the run up to the failed April elections.
But they officially stopped their activities only 2 days after the coup....
Plus, on 2008-08-24 05:01:41, said: At the moment of the coup there was no democratically elected government, no parlament, no senate. There was a "caretaker" government that consitutionally was supposed to last for three months only, and it was headed by a PM who went back on his very public promise to stay away from politics.
But of course you still remember why that was the case ? Thaksin calling an election, which technically wasn't necessary, and the opposition boycotting those elections, of course because they knew they couldn't beat him at the ballot box.
A disgrace no other word for it. Political parties that boycot an election, because they know beforehand that there's now way to win them.
Posted 2008-08-24 15:04:56
mrtoad, on 2008-08-21 01:25:05, said: Toxin is like a little boy with a ball. He's okay if he's winning the game, but when he loses possesion he cries foul and wants to take it home. Shame that the UK immigration weren't as stringet with Pokamon as the Thai authorities where with Glitter. Whilst there's difference in offences, there's no difference in culpability. It's about time Thailand opened up the box and investigated some of the other stuff that Toxin has been accused of, but it's probably unlikely, just as much as Thailand genuinely pushing for extradition. Well... on Thai Rath Thai web site Bermuda is mentioned as a bolt hole.......For Faxin and his siblings......Maybe just maybe... poor old Man City hey! 
Posted 2008-08-24 15:18:13
sjaak327, on 2008-08-24 15:01:52, said: Plus, on 2008-08-24 05:01:41, said: At the moment of the coup there was no democratically elected government, no parliament, no senate. There was a "caretaker" government that constitutionally was supposed to last for three months only, and it was headed by a PM who went back on his very public promise to stay away from politics.
But of course you still remember why that was the case ? Thaksin calling an election, which technically wasn't necessary, and the opposition boycotting those elections, of course because they knew they couldn't beat him at the ballot box.
I believe it was "technically" necessary to call for an election after he "technically" dissolved Parliament first.
The opposition boycotting the election was not illegal and as history has shown played a role in the tyrant's ouster. It was an excellent strategic move that ruined Thaksin's plans to avoid the censure debate that prompted Thaksin to dissolve Parliament in the first place.
Still, even without opposition in the election, he decided to commit electoral fraud, which prompted the dissolving of his TRT.
Edited by sriracha john, 2008-08-24 15:19:43.
Posted 2008-08-24 15:23:39
OurManinSamui2008, on 2008-08-24 15:04:56, said: mrtoad, on 2008-08-21 01:25:05, said: Toxin is like a little boy with a ball. He's okay if he's winning the game, but when he loses possesion he cries foul and wants to take it home. Shame that the UK immigration weren't as stringet with Pokamon as the Thai authorities where with Glitter. Whilst there's difference in offences, there's no difference in culpability. It's about time Thailand opened up the box and investigated some of the other stuff that Toxin has been accused of, but it's probably unlikely, just as much as Thailand genuinely pushing for extradition. Well... on Thai Rath Thai web site Bermuda is mentioned as a bolt hole.......For Faxin and his siblings......Maybe just maybe... poor old Man City hey!
... and just in time for his favorite past-time... coordinating Drug Wars..
http://www.thaivisa....=...t&p=2163876
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