Posted 2009-06-19 17:51:35
 Plus, on 2009-06-19 14:25:56, said:
Quote Read this board again. According to Grant its 227 kmh on the meter and 219 kmh on the GPS. I v never passed 200, never tryed to. But at 200 it handles quiet well too.
But that's not 1.8l Civic!
His is heavily modded and he dropped in a different engine to begin with.
Quote my wife has been very happy with the service on her Civic 2.0 R
Another puzzle - Honda doesn't sell TypeR here. They planned to build them in Thailand but dropped the idea for the lack of buyers.
Plus
You have stated several times; by watching Civic for 5 years you can see its as slow as a Corolla 1,6. You can not see if its 1,8 or 2,0.
You have stated that no one else on this board has praised how fast Civic is.
Please read Grants posts again. Its the standard 2,0/155 hp before replacing engine doing 219 kmh. Civics are really slow, right Plus?
Prepped engine is over 250 kmh.
Honda Civic 2,0R is sold here by independent importers. Iv driven one of them in Phuket on Phuket plates. Great fun  2,0 R fits perfect to LOS tax with less than 2000cc and 220hp.
Edited by katabeachbum, 2009-06-19 18:18:01.
Posted 2009-06-19 22:50:12
Quote You have stated several times; by watching Civic for 5 years you can see its as slow as a Corolla 1,6. You can not see if its 1,8 or 2,0.
2l Civic has large red lettering, very easy to spot. A lot easier than making out the difference between 6 and 8 on 1.6 or 1.8 Corollas.
Whatever Grant drives - it's not 1.8 model, so his experience is irrelevant to this discussion.
Civic TypeR is imported and sold independently, true, but I seriosly doubt that poster's wife got one, doesn't sound like a choice for a Thai girl. Also he stressed on servicing it with Honda dealers - I don't think Honda dealers stock spare parts for Type R, from the engine to brakes.
There was some kind of "R" badge on previous generation Civics once - they got some special side skirts and other bits and pieces, but definitely not the engine.
Edited by Plus, 2009-06-19 22:51:25.
Posted 2009-06-20 09:44:42
Plus, on 2009-06-19 22:50:12, said: 2l Civic has large red lettering, very easy to spot. A lot easier than making out the difference between 6 and 8 on 1.6 or 1.8 Corollas.
Every Civic with 50 kg of stereo has a large red 2,0 lettering. Doesnt make them have 2000 cc engine
Grants post with speed experience with standard Civic 2,0 is a highly relevant reply to your lack of seeing other posters opinion on Civics superior power over Corolla
May numbers just out, cars in LOS.
Honda skipped to another victory over Toyota with 7.268 units over Toyotas 6.700.
I think Toyota is considering a more modern spec to not loose it all. I guess Corolla 1,6 taxis and Camry 2,0 airportlimos still keep them alive.
Posted 2009-06-20 12:58:24
Hold on - I was saying that current 1.8 Civic doesn't have any visibnle advantage over 1.6 Corolla, that their bigger displacement and higher HP do not mean they perform any better on the road.
2l Civic is a different beast, I don't know how many times are said that it's probably the fastest regular car available in Thailand.
If one is to buy 1.8 Civic and hope that it performs just as well because other Civics have 2l engine or R badges on them is kindergarten variety dream.
Posted 2009-06-20 16:39:44
Plus, on 2009-06-18 09:58:54, said: No, I said Civics have no visible advantage on the road. Maybe it's the drivers, I don't know, but I don't expect them to suddenly accelerate if given a chance, either with a gap in the traffic or merging on expressways. Maybe they can, I'm not the one driving, but they just don't do it. By comparison, Camries and Accords accelerate steadily and gracefully, and pickups can just fly out like bats out of hel_l, so I need to keep that in mind when overtaking or changing lanes and cutting in front. Nothing to worry about regular Civics.
And believe me - I was expecting great things from those new Civics when they first came out.
Plus
I guess this is what you said. Thats Civic in general, not restricting it to 1,8 only. 
Posted 2009-06-20 17:12:49
From my experience, the Toyota engines has more torque in the mid-range RPM's. I had the first Toyota Yaris T-sport 1.5 (never available in Thai), and was impressed the amount of tourqe it had to offer even in 5th gear at lower RPM's.
My Civic 2.0 is an angry beast when you past 5,500 RPM's, but its takes a while to get there, and the fuel consumption is not friendly at all.
On Thai roads i prefer my 177hp 320 diesel. Has an enormous torque starting from 1,500 RPM. And soon it will be tuned to around 215hp and 450Nm
Posted 2009-06-20 17:28:16
mortenaa, on 2009-06-20 17:12:49, said: From my experience, the Toyota engines has more torque in the mid-range RPM's. I had the first Toyota Yaris T-sport 1.5 (never available in Thai), and was impressed the amount of tourqe it had to offer even in 5th gear at lower RPM's.
My Civic 2.0 is an angry beast when you past 5,500 RPM's, but its takes a while to get there, and the fuel consumption is not friendly at all.
On Thai roads i prefer my 177hp 320 diesel. Has an enormous torque starting from 1,500 RPM. And soon it will be tuned to around 215hp and 450Nm
BMW 2,0 D/177 hp is probably the best performing 2000cc diesel in the world. Lovely.
As you can see from this thread Toyota and Honda has the same torque when similar displacement is compared. Hondas just have more high end power in addition. Your Civic may kick off at 5500 rpm, but the more modern SOHC 2,0 in Accord kicks off at 4300 rpm as does the 2,4. The new SOHC 2,0 is much more friendly on fuel too.
Edit: My 2008 Accord 2,4/180hp is more friendly on fuel than my 2007 Camry 2,4 was. Measured on 40.000 km each.
Edited by katabeachbum, 2009-06-20 17:29:56.
Posted 2009-07-03 10:25:01
Finally a review on new 2l Altis in Bangkok Post.
Just as expected/predicted: it's geared to low-mid range performance and gets a lot of praise for that.
Altis 2.0l review
Posted 2009-07-03 17:50:59
Plus, on 2009-07-03 10:25:01, said: Finally a review on new 2l Altis in Bangkok Post.
Just as expected/predicted: it's geared to low-mid range performance and gets a lot of praise for that.
Altis 2.0l review
"That said dont expect performance to be as spirited as in the Civic".
Posted 2009-07-03 21:01:14
Taken out of context. Full quote goes like this:
"The engine has apparently been optimised in the low- to mid-ranges, even though it allows the driver to stretch it to the redline without upshifting in manual model. Real action takes place below 5,000rpm.
In fact, maximum power in the 2.0 is achieved at an unusually low 5,600rpm by Toyota standards. That said, don't expect performance to be as spirited as in the Civic."
Civic is also mentioned in another place:
"Since the 2.0 is an all-new block for Toyota cars in Thailand, it naturally shows several strengths. One is refinement which the Mazda 3 lacks and Honda Civic nearly has to match."
Just confirms what I've been saying all along - a car for daily performance, not for racing at near redline. Lack of a few hp at the top end is compensated by better perfomance in low-mid ranges, which is more important for regular drivers, imo.
Posted 2009-07-04 03:53:01
Plus, on 2009-07-03 22:01:14, said: Taken out of context. Full quote goes like this:
"The engine has apparently been optimised in the low- to mid-ranges, even though it allows the driver to stretch it to the redline without upshifting in manual model. Real action takes place below 5,000rpm.
In fact, maximum power in the 2.0 is achieved at an unusually low 5,600rpm by Toyota standards. That said, don't expect performance to be as spirited as in the Civic."
Civic is also mentioned in another place:
"Since the 2.0 is an all-new block for Toyota cars in Thailand, it naturally shows several strengths. One is refinement which the Mazda 3 lacks and Honda Civic nearly has to match."
Just confirms what I've been saying all along - a car for daily performance, not for racing at near redline. Lack of a few hp at the top end is compensated by better perfomance in low-mid ranges, which is more important for regular drivers, imo.
Interesting to see that Civics 10 year old DOHC engine is almost as refined as Toyotas brand new engine. They have the same tourque giving the same low rev power, but Civic has 10% more high rev power. Hondas new SOHC 2,0 is more refined with same power as DOHC, but yet to be installed in Civic. Only Accord presently.
All 3 engines perform the same in low-mid ranges, but Honda performs 10% better at high end. Thats overtaking power.
Unbelievable Toyota want to sell it with an old 4 speed auto in LOS.
Toyota sales are still going down, 32% down in June in US, while Honda is holding up.
Camry used to be the most reliable car in US for a decade, year by year. 2005 was the last year. In 2006 Accord took over, and has remained.
Posted 2009-07-04 05:04:51
Corollas are know for decency to, but Honda is the best.
Posted 2009-07-11 16:03:54
It's not a ten year old engine in Civic, when it went on sale they advertised all the improvements they've made to it, I remember it very well from the motorshow it was first unveiled.
Toyota advertises new Altis as "dual VVTi" technology, don't know what it is in Honda terms of engine developlment.
Torque numbers alone are not indicative of things like "refinement". I don't know if there are any numbers to put on how fast the engine picks up speed/RPMs, how smooth it is, how responsive to every little tap on gas pedal. So far it seems to be a subjective opinion.
Guys at Bangkok Post have confirmed my prediction that new Altis would produce excellent performance in real life conditions, not on race tracks. It's very easy to get more power from 2l engines, but it would come at the expense of things like fuel efficiency and that elusive "refinement".
I don't think anyone would be disappointed by Altis performance on everyday roads.
Posted 2009-07-13 17:32:06
Plus, on 2009-07-11 16:03:54, said: It's not a ten year old engine in Civic, when it went on sale they advertised all the improvements they've made to it, I remember it very well from the motorshow it was first unveiled.
Toyota advertises new Altis as "dual VVTi" technology, don't know what it is in Honda terms of engine developlment.
Torque numbers alone are not indicative of things like "refinement". I don't know if there are any numbers to put on how fast the engine picks up speed/RPMs, how smooth it is, how responsive to every little tap on gas pedal. So far it seems to be a subjective opinion.
Guys at Bangkok Post have confirmed my prediction that new Altis would produce excellent performance in real life conditions, not on race tracks. It's very easy to get more power from 2l engines, but it would come at the expense of things like fuel efficiency and that elusive "refinement".
I don't think anyone would be disappointed by Altis performance on everyday roads.
I do not agree with you Plus. IMHO Civics 2,0 is better drive than Corolla Altis 2,0. Just drove them both same day.
Some quotes from BKK Post
"that includes an engine tuned for tourque tractability rather than power thrills. But whatever Toyota had in its mind, the Civics 2,0-litres engine is still the better one in perfomance terms. Its flexible enough low down, yet offers that top end rush not found in the Corolla."
"there is still a good deal of refinement in the Civic. The five speed automatic transmission in the Civic also gives better response in the midrange."
"Civic ones again emerges as the winner here" 
4 speed auto and soggy chassis for Corolla. Not to mention the 83 k higher price for the Corolla.
Posted 2009-07-14 08:48:20
I think that the New Altis looks a bit more mature than than the very sporty Civic... With that I mean that the Altis is probably not built for the high speed racers but for the little older people out there that are willing to drive maybe 130-150kmph and not much more... I presume that the Civic people that opt for the 2.0L are people who either have to show off or wants something that moves very fast... The Civic looks fast, the Altis looks classy in a different way from the Accord and Camry...
Different cars for different uses...
I find it much easier to live with a Altis than with a Civic... When I bought my Jazz last year I chose that one since getting in and out of the Civic was just to hard (sit in one and you will know what I mean).
The Altis was far better than the Civic for me, but my Jazz was just too CUTE!
Posted 2009-07-14 09:26:03
snowflake, on 2009-07-13 20:48:20, said: I think that the New Altis looks a bit more mature than than the very sporty Civic... With that I mean that the Altis is probably not built for the high speed racers but for the little older people out there that are willing to drive maybe 130-150kmph and not much more... I presume that the Civic people that opt for the 2.0L are people who either have to show off or wants something that moves very fast... The Civic looks fast, the Altis looks classy in a different way from the Accord and Camry...
Different cars for different uses...
I find it much easier to live with a Altis than with a Civic... When I bought my Jazz last year I chose that one since getting in and out of the Civic was just to hard (sit in one and you will know what I mean).
The Altis was far better than the Civic for me, but my Jazz was just too CUTE!
I've had my new Altis for almost a year now. I think the styling is fairly decent, somewhat classy front and side styling, but the rear looks a bit too macho to me. I think I prefer the Civic's rear stying. The Altis interior styling is great, and that is important because that is what I see most of the time, although it takes effort for me to lift my oversize body up from the seat to exit the car. <groan>
Mechanically the car is excellent, no problems of any kind.
Edited by Lopburi99, 2009-07-14 09:28:13.
Posted 2009-07-21 13:12:23
Quote Some quotes from BKK Post
Oh, the famous Bangkok post "face off".
I've been reading them for a decade and not once Toyota came close to Honda there.
Even when Vios was outselling City 3 to 1, Bangkok Post insisted Honda was the better, sportier car.
Then, out of the blue, they admitted that it was Vios that sets standards for sportiness. I thought they finally came to their senses. Alas, it was only an introduction paragraph to yet another "Honda is the best ever" article dedicated to the glories of some City upgrade that was meant to finally destroy its competition. It was two or three "upgrades" ago, nothing happened.
Honda fans are like Apple devotees, absolutely convinced theirs is the best brand and will never let you forget about it.
>>>
Incidentally, I think Civic's rear end is the ugliest around, now that City finally got a nice one. I thought after a few years Civic's rear would grow on me, but it hasn't. I still think the lights are disproporionally large and the shape is rather strange. Maybe new, octagonal lights look better, don't remember seeing them yet.
I also hate new Toyota rear lights on both Altis and Vios.
Posted 2009-07-21 18:20:08
Plus, on 2009-07-21 13:12:23, said: Quote Some quotes from BKK Post
Oh, the famous Bangkok post "face off".
I've been reading them for a decade and not once Toyota came close to Honda there.
Even when Vios was outselling City 3 to 1, Bangkok Post insisted Honda was the better, sportier car.
Then, out of the blue, they admitted that it was Vios that sets standards for sportiness. I thought they finally came to their senses. Alas, it was only an introduction paragraph to yet another "Honda is the best ever" article dedicated to the glories of some City upgrade that was meant to finally destroy its competition. It was two or three "upgrades" ago, nothing happened.
Honda fans are like Apple devotees, absolutely convinced theirs is the best brand and will never let you forget about it.
>>>
Incidentally, I think Civic's rear end is the ugliest around, now that City finally got a nice one. I thought after a few years Civic's rear would grow on me, but it hasn't. I still think the lights are disproporionally large and the shape is rather strange. Maybe new, octagonal lights look better, don't remember seeing them yet.
I also hate new Toyota rear lights on both Altis and Vios.
I m neither a Honda fan or Apple devotee, but i find it easy to see Hondas higher spec, sportyness and style over Toyota gives better sale.
The best looking Honda/Toyota is IMHO still Camry in white Pearl. However its handling, steering, gearbox and engine is not up to date compared with Accord.
Civics new octagonal lights (8 months now?) look exactly like before until they light up. Only the pattern of the diodes have changed, not the shape of the light. IMHO the second best looking Honda/Toyota in LOS.
Posted 2009-07-22 08:39:18
Quote Hondas higher spec, sportyness and style over Toyota gives better sale.
"Higher spec" includes not only gearbox and horsepower but also things like start button, key fob with RF, GPS and all other electronic goodies, and in those areas Toyota has an advantage, I think.
"Better sale" is not the best criterion to judge which car is better. I just read an article about what drives sales (in Europe), and they basically said the main point is emotional attachment and brand image, not technology per se. The differences between, say rear wheel and front wheel drive, don't matter for customers anymore, there's little difference in real life.
In that sense Honda has a "sportiness" image (in Thailand). Whether it's really any sportier is a matter of debate, but for those who bought into this idea, debates don't matter. With enough effort you can "win" any debate if you want to validate your opinion, with enough faith you will always be a winner, at least in your own mind.
That's why I don't give any credit to Bangkok post face-offs and concentrate on what they said about each vehicle and what it means in practical terms, reading "between the lines", so to speak.
Posted 2009-07-22 09:11:24
Plus, on 2009-07-22 08:39:18, said: Quote Hondas higher spec, sportyness and style over Toyota gives better sale.
"Higher spec" includes not only gearbox and horsepower but also things like start button, key fob with RF, GPS and all other electronic goodies, and in those areas Toyota has an advantage, I think.
"Better sale" is not the best criterion to judge which car is better. I just read an article about what drives sales (in Europe), and they basically said the main point is emotional attachment and brand image, not technology per se. The differences between, say rear wheel and front wheel drive, don't matter for customers anymore, there's little difference in real life.
In that sense Honda has a "sportiness" image (in Thailand). Whether it's really any sportier is a matter of debate, but for those who bought into this idea, debates don't matter. With enough effort you can "win" any debate if you want to validate your opinion, with enough faith you will always be a winner, at least in your own mind.
That's why I don't give any credit to Bangkok post face-offs and concentrate on what they said about each vehicle and what it means in practical terms, reading "between the lines", so to speak.
Car buyers are different. Fortunately. If not there wouldnt be several brands.
Honda and Toyota have very different approach to the Thai market. Its exiciting to see who succeedes. Actually they are both extremely successfull in this market.
The BKK post journalists are, like me, car enthusiasts, and as such its easy to see Hondas focus on performance over Toyota.
Some buyers want Hondas performance and image, others want Toyotas comfort and gissmos. None of them are better cars. Just different.
Edited by katabeachbum, 2009-07-22 09:14:31.
Posted 2009-07-22 14:08:17
Quote Honda and Toyota have very different approach to the Thai market
I disagree. Most of the time you can't see any difference between their advertising.
Civic, for example, even in 2l form, was never presented for sportiness or speed. It was "luxury" and gismos, just a bit less than in Accord. Even BP admitted it was geared towards comfort, not racing, when they weren't comparing it to Toyota.
I also don't see any difference between Jazz and Yaris ad campaigns either - both focus on fun, sportiness and youthfulness.
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