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[Ricardo]

Pierrot, on 2008-09-18 21:24:26, said:

What are your feelings regarding those who support the PAD since the early beginning? There is very few of them, but they post a lot, like they don't have to work. Do you believe they are actually employed (paid) to defend PAD / democrat's view ?

Perhaps they don't have to work anymore, and are retired, maybe someone should run a Poll, to see how many TV-posters are still self-employed or wage-slaves & how many have escaped the rat-race ?  

[Pierrot]

Ricardo, on 2008-09-21 00:06:54, said:

Pierrot, on 2008-09-18 21:24:26, said:

What are your feelings regarding those who support the PAD since the early beginning? There is very few of them, but they post a lot, like they don't have to work. Do you believe they are actually employed (paid) to defend PAD / democrat's view ?

Perhaps they don't have to work anymore, and are retired, maybe someone should run a Poll, to see how many TV-posters are still self-employed or wage-slaves & how many have escaped the rat-race ?  

People who are still wage-slaves, as you nicely put, are the same who make sure your chair is still rocking

[Pierrot]

Scott, on 2008-09-19 09:12:59, said:

I am not paranoid--they were out to get us!  

Being an expat with a fair amount of experience, but limited knowledge of Thai politics, I tried to be careful and balanced in posting on political sites.  Nonetheless, it was like trying to be kind to rabid dog.  I found them to be less easy to deal with than some ultra-religious folks, who in the end would smile and say they would pray for me!  

Some of them hijacked the thread and were very intimidating to anyone with a different view, or even a question.  

In the end I gave up following the threads, because I was really interested to find out what PAD believed, thought, what their plan was etc.  Not just how evil Thaksin was and how he should be skinned alive, boiled in oil and anyone who had ever walked on the ground he touched should be executed etc. etc. !

Your post definitely summarize my feelings and also I believe those of many members that have been silenced by the outrageously aggressive attitude of PAD supporters.     What made me believe that these PAD supporters were more than isolated individual is the organized way they felt on anybody who dares opposing their views and lured them in heated debate to eventually get them censored or banned.

    I believe that unfortunately a number honest posters were lost in the process.

Edited by Pierrot, 2008-09-21 10:24:35.

[Ricardo]

Pierrot, on 2008-09-21 10:04:57, said:

Ricardo, on 2008-09-21 00:06:54, said:

Pierrot, on 2008-09-18 21:24:26, said:

What are your feelings regarding those who support the PAD since the early beginning? There is very few of them, but they post a lot, like they don't have to work. Do you believe they are actually employed (paid) to defend PAD / democrat's view ?

Perhaps they don't have to work anymore, and are retired, maybe someone should run a Poll, to see how many TV-posters are still self-employed or wage-slaves & how many have escaped the rat-race ?  

People who are still wage-slaves, as you nicely put, are the same who make sure your chair is still rocking

Fine with me, as long as it's still folk-rocking !  

[clausewitz]

From Voranai Vanijaka- an ardent PAD supporter.
http://www.bangkokpo...008_news016.php

Quote

it is unarguable that Western democracy has been several centuries in the making and written by numerous conflicts and much bloodshed.

Through much of our history in the 20th century, the overwhelming majority of the Thai population were peasant farmers, the backbone of the Kingdom, who wouldn't know a democracy from a tamagochi. How could they? With little to no education, their primary concerns were simply feeding and clothing their children? Democratic ideals are the luxury of the ''haves'', the ''have nots'' hold graver concerns.

.  Human nature: a pile of cash on the table versus some lofty ideal, which would the average Somchai and Somying one generation removed from the rice field . Flocking to the banner of the PAD are simply people who have had enough. allow me to speak for the average Thai person _ rich, middle and poor _ we marched simply because we have had enough. Is this undermining democracy? There is no democracy to undermine. We never had it. Democracy isn't just about going to the poll and voting. They don't hand out democracy at the local mom & pop store, and it isn't on sale at Central or Paragon. One must fight for it.

[Scott]

I read his entire editorial in the Sunday paper.  I like his style, but I disagree with him on a number of points.  I am not sure why folks are upset that foreigners are expressing an opinion on the matter, since we really don't matter!  

I think one of the problems that they have here is that they think they need to reinvent the wheel--and then it will be called a 'Thai-wheel'.

[Denim]

clausewitz, on 2008-09-22 02:42:55, said:

From Voranai Vanijaka- an ardent PAD supporter.
http://www.bangkokpo...008_news016.php

Quote

it is unarguable that Western democracy has been several centuries in the making and written by numerous conflicts and much bloodshed.

Through much of our history in the 20th century, the overwhelming majority of the Thai population were peasant farmers, the backbone of the Kingdom, who wouldn't know a democracy from a tamagochi. How could they? With little to no education, their primary concerns were simply feeding and clothing their children? Democratic ideals are the luxury of the ''haves'', the ''have nots'' hold graver concerns.

. Human nature: a pile of cash on the table versus some lofty ideal, which would the average Somchai and Somying one generation removed from the rice field . Flocking to the banner of the PAD are simply people who have had enough. allow me to speak for the average Thai person _ rich, middle and poor _ we marched simply because we have had enough. Is this undermining democracy? There is no democracy to undermine. We never had it. Democracy isn't just about going to the poll and voting. They don't hand out democracy at the local mom & pop store, and it isn't on sale at Central or Paragon. One must fight for it.

  Well, if you want to ' fight ' for democracy you can always go along to the DAAD down at Sanam Luang. On the other hand, if you want to fight for the oligarchs and the privalaged few you can go and join the PAD...simple choice.

[permanent_disorder]

that article is Kitsch and a complete joke.
and his main point is, you falang, you no thai, you no understand.

[clausewitz]

permanent_disorder, on 2008-09-22 10:14:38, said:

that article is Kitsch and a complete joke.
and his main point is, you falang, you no thai, you no understand.

I find it more worrying than you. Talk to the average PAD cultist and these ideas are repeated. PAD members seem to think Thailand has to go down a bloody path of revolution(the writer mentions French revolution ) and then after that it will all be fine- with PAD immortalized as the saviours of the country, and PAD protesters recognized and given positions of power.

Not hard to see why they are so excited. They are in fact given diplomas(ok have to pay 100baht) saying they are official PAD protesters, and promised special status from the PAD stage. Then the AEC members(who bring charges to the surpreme against Thasin) included PAD key members.

[MiG16]

Ive merged 3 threads into 1 so that you get a more comprehensive discussion of the various aspects. Please continue your discussions here.

thanks everyone

[clausewitz]

permanent_disorder, on 2008-09-10 01:09:39, said:

Mr Sonti Limtongkul's Manager media group promoting violence against a young student activist and a Chairwoman of a workers union

"Over 130 trade unionists, social activists, students and academics have put their names to an open letter condemning the behaviour of The Manager media group.
Those signing the letter include many academics at Chulalongkorn and Thammasart Universities, including the Dean of the faculty of Political Science at Chulalongkorn University. Former Senator Jon Ungpakorn and Rawadee Prasertcharoensuk from the N.G.O. Coordinating Committee, Professor Niti Eawsriwong, Textile trade union leaders, worker activists and an academic from the Midnight University are among the signatures.
The letter is in response to the actions of Mr Sonti Limtongkul's Manager group in promoting violence against a young student activist Chotisak Oonsung, who is being accused of lèse majesté because he refused to stand up for the King's Anthem at the cinema. Both Manager group websites and its radio station, Metro Life, have encouraged Ultra-Rightwing Royalists to attack Mr Chotisak. Ms Jitra Kotchadej, Chairwoman of the Triumph workers union has also been made a target for violence by The Manager media. Ms Jitra was singled out because she wore a T-shirt supporting the right to different views in society, including not standing up at the cinema. Both Mr Chotisak and Ms Jitra's photographs and home addresses were published alongside urges to attack them.
The Manager media also encouraged people to attack and break up a meeting on Human Rights at Thammasart University recently.
Those signing the open letter compare the behaviour of The Manager with the past behaviour of Rightwing media such as Dao Sayam newspaper and the Tank Corps radio station in inciting violence that led to the 6th October 1976 blood bath.
The letter calls on people to boycott The Manager media group for abusing basic human rights. The letter also calls on P.A.D. leaders Somsak Kosaisuk, Pipop Thongchai and Somkiat Pongpaiboon to come out and officially condemn The Manager. "
http://www.prachatai...news.php?id=642

And of course PAD arms its followers while all the while comparing themselves with Gandhi. How do they have the audacity to chant Ahimsa (non-harm). For the cult followers though, they are paragons of virtue.

[PhilHarries]

I have often questioned whether democracy is the right form of government for Thailand and perhaps a kind of benign dictatorship would be the best. This is pretty well what PAD are proposing but in this one has to ask who is to appoint the 70% or whatever and what would their term of office be? Even so such a government should only be considered transitional until the electorate can be considered educated or informed enough to make the choices. This would mean that the government, through education and dissemination of information, would be working for it's own demise. I don't see any Thai politician willing to give up his place at the dining table anytime this millenium. But even if, by some minor miracle, the entire population could be sufficiently educated there still has to be the peasant class to grow the rice and for whom 500 Baht is more important than whatever gasbag is their elected representative.

Also it's a bit disturbing that the author seems to think democracy can only be achieved by way of a fight. But all along it seems the PAD have been spoiling for a fight, maybe they see bloodshed as a way of achieving international approval.

[permanent_disorder]

clausewitz, on 2008-09-22 11:26:12, said:

I find it more worrying than you. Talk to the average PAD cultist and these ideas are repeated. PAD members seem to think Thailand has to go down a bloody path of revolution(the writer mentions French revolution ) and then after that it will all be fine- with PAD immortalized as the saviours of the country, and PAD protesters recognized and given positions of power.

Not hard to see why they are so excited. They are in fact given diplomas(ok have to pay 100baht) saying they are official PAD protesters, and promised special status from the PAD stage. Then the AEC members(who bring charges to the surpreme against Thasin) included PAD key members.

you are right, actually it is something to be  worried. the PAD cult is the new fad and they are so exciteded about. and it's quite a strange cult for my western mind.
because the PAD cult got compared with gandhi, mugabe, mandela,communits, nazis and whatever i just take a few of their propaganda images and did compare them with propaganda images of an other movement that had enough from the politics in parliament.
make "fun" of the opponent:
and dehumanising is a nazi trait. they called the others subhuman. the claimed enemy was the jew. the didn't invent  antisemitism, but they make to a program of their "new way". the jews betrayed the german nation, steal the money. all the antsemitism we have until today. the unusual rich,  foreign connections - the bolshevik from russia, a sub human race. rabbis celebrating black mess and drinking children blood. all bad elements bribed by Jewish money.
the hate object of the PAD cult is thaksin, he betrayed the nation, steal from the people, sell out the country to signapore, black magic rituals with khmer wizzard to damage thailand. and he buy everything, the voters, the MP, all proxies and so on. you know the record. propaganda with envy on wealth and also nationalistic rhetoric. hate speech, i quoted the square face song, samak got called the dog, pid nose dog mouth.  all bad elements bribed by Thaksin money.
and there is the "protest art", that on of the first things i got aware off and found very odd. the thaksin hitlers of course and others reminds me on anti semitic cartoons of the nazis. they used them as propaganda, years before '33 and years before the start to kill them. Goebbels:  "it was often easier to express Nazi ideas in a political cartoon than with the written word"". in the nazi mag Der Stürmer you could found those drawings. your typical sterotyp. the jewish docter, the attorneys, the commercial jew, the conspiration jew, the jew as Untermensch, a inferior race. you have cartoons like that until today, widley spread in the web on hate pages.
let's have a look at few pictures. flickr is a good source and this a good collection http://flickr.com/ph...57607100909426/
in PAD propaganda iconography is hitlerthaksin always the money jew and samak the Untermensch.


lame attempt, a recyled TRT placard, early pre coup times. the moustache dosn't really look like a hitler moustache. more like a dirty sanchez, add a little bit dirty sexual connotation is cult. and bloodsucker devil teeth. bloodsucker devil you. you wannabe saddam, grow a really moustache. GET OUT!

wow, that is a little bit better, thaksin the hitler and puppet player, holds his helldog on a string. samaks facial features got kindly little bit changed. original, creative or mass produced? i have seen it before:


click pic for source. the first a german funny mag of WWII. the old conspiracy theory.worldleaders marionettes of the jews. the marionette idea but probably beaten to death by tausends of witty caricaturist. and the funny thai version just a copy of a copy of a copy. somebody see thaksin on movie poster pics? copies too. but okay a Hakenkreuz swastika added to confuse the hindus and falung gong fellowers. 卐 is always good to bring some spice& creativity in politics.


thaksin as crossdressing hitler or crossdressing thaksin as hitler? or gender confused thaksin as ilse koch? even without the moustache, no idea. is that homophob? what the message, thaksin not man enough only hag. isn't that woman discrimination, or ladyboy discrimination? what does the thai LGBT community think of it?


an educational poster of the pre coup time. thaksin sit on a moneybag and betray the nation, sell out the country, give a few coins to the right, poor blue shirt farmer people, but look left side, Sondhi & The Mob is coming brave and law-abiding tax payer. see, also a kid, happy. the good people. no idea what the dogs are starting to do.

click pic for source. Money Is The God Of The Jews: "The God of the Jews is money. To earn money, he commits the greatest crimes. He will not rest until he can sit on a huge money sack, until he has become the king of money." he sits in front of the Börse/stock exchange. Finanzjuden, commercial jew most hated by nazi. they shout against capitalism and imperialism, same as the left wings communists. the moneybag jew became rich without honest work, only interest, usurious interest with money lending. Goebbels: Why Are We Socialists?


2006 PADcult stage. thaksin, the octopus have everything in his hands. the country assets, parliment, TV, satellite...  and that beast eats the Kingdom. but people fighting him. Bang, Bang, Kick. Juden raus, jewsthaksin get out. Jawohl.



click pic for source: the jewish octopus, or jewish monster try to take over the world is a often used motif. 2nd pic Title: "The Economy and Jewry: This issue accuses Jews of every manner of economic misdeed. The cartoon is titled "Demon Money." A Jewish monster, engraved with the Star of David and the symbols for the American dollar and British pound has its claws on the planet.. but not only the nazis had used the octopus in propaganda, an other earlier example, that could see in close relation would be the anti-trust litigation against Standard Oil 100 years ago, the standard oil octopus.
the clenched hand we can see on a NSDAP  poster for the 1929 state election in saxony.  in english: end corruption / vote for nationalsocialists. you see against corruption, like the "good people". easy.

now we are coming to really dehumanising pics, seen of samak in the area of news politics, get even more ugly thaksin=hitler and jew was kindergarten, but samak is the devil dog with pig nose from hel_l government.



there are many more similar pics, i don't want post more and also not comment them. just ask yourself, how many racial stereotypes and insults you can find? and is that the way you should act as the "good people" movement?

click on pic for source. the last one is from a children's book The Father of the Jews is the Devil


disclaimer:
enough for pics now, and keep in mind all that is not a conclusive proof of sondhi & PAD Mob = Hitler & whatever. it's about the act of dehumanising of opponents in visual propaganda material.
i see it only as an  approach, rudiment. much more material to collect, like english transcription of PAD speeches and would welcome any similar work that compare the PAD with Gandhi or with the women mass demonstrations in the 1970/2 anti-salvador allende movement.

if you follow this link http://www.calvin.ed...gpa/pre1933.htm you go to a German Propaganda Archive, also focused on Nazi propaganda during what they called the Kampfzeit, the years when the party was fighting for political power (1919-1933)
you can find translation of goebbels essays and speeches. is good to read and do a study of sources, instead just read a book or watch history channel.  goebbels was ~ 25-30 years all that time.  the movement was a new and fresh movement. public speeches or road shows in the nazi style nobody have ever done this way before. hitler took acting classes for the perfect show,  the radio was a the new mass media, like the internet today. radio became the medium of nazi propaganda and we can all be lucky that they didn't had TV yet.

"We do not enter parliament to use parliamentary methods. We know that the fate of peoples is determined by personalities, never by parliamentary majorities. The essence of parliamentary democracy is the majority, which destroys personal responsibility and glorifies the masses. A few dozen rogues and crooks run things behind the scenes. Aristocracy depends on accomplishment, the rule of the most able, and the subordination of the less capable to the will of the leadership. Any form of government — no matter how democratic or aristocratic it may outwardly appear — rests on compulsion. The difference is only whether the compulsion is a blessing or a curse for the community.

What we demand is new, decisive, and radical, revolutionary in the truest sense of the word. That has nothing to do with rioting and barricades. It may be that that happens here or there. But it is not an inherent part of the process. Revolutions are spiritual acts. They appear first in people, then in politics and the economy. New people form new structures. The transformation we want is first of all spiritual; that will necessarily change the way things are.

This revolutionary act is beginning to be visible in us. The result is a new type of person visible to the knowing eye: the New Politics. Consistent with his spiritual attitude, the  New Politics makes uncompromising demands in politics. There is no if and when for him, only an either — or."

[Samuian]

permanent_disorder, on 2008-09-22 10:14:38, said:

that article is Kitsch and a complete joke.
and his main point is, you falang, you no thai, you no understand.

You try really hard to add all the honors to your nick, however it's your opinion, as everyone else is free to have an opinion and express it - and simply because of expressing it, it's not necessarily the universal truth!

But this doesn't change the value of right and wrong, of false and true - and so even you and others don't like it, is the PAD free to air their opinion!

And that: "Thai'ishness" of this situation, is exactly what he tried to express in this article, why not, let 'em work it out their way - I am certain they will!

The days of "Taxinomics" are counted, if not over for good and for this, whatever the PAD might be labeled, they have done the Nation a great, great favor and shown their devotion to the country and it's people, they are "out there" for all their fellow country men, for those who "don't or can't", even for those who didn't care, or didn't know, for those who did make this all possible, who sold their vote, or simply gave it away - for a promise!

After all, they could be home and drawing up plans how to help to loot Thailand - that what "Taxinomics" and it's Cronies, Supporters ans Sponsors are all about ' isn't it?

Free ride's are over!

Edited by Samuian, 2008-09-22 14:51:00.

[Jai Dee]

Follow this link to read the opinion (and readers replies) from Voranai Vanijaka in the Bangkok Post.

But follow it quickly if you're interested... link rot will render it useless within a few days.

[camerata]

Regarding PAD's demagoguery, imagery and talk of opponents "selling the nation," that fact is that PAD (like Chamlong's Phalang Dharma party) has little support outside Bangkok, so they have to play the nationalism card in an attempt to appeal to the rural poor.

[Bangyai]

Jefferson, on 2008-07-22 15:03:54, said:

Pad: bulldog on a leash or another nail in democracy's coffin
Published on July 21, 2008

Since it was formed in February 2006, and especially since it was revived in May of this year, the People's Alliance for Democracy (PAD), has become a distinctive force on the political landscape.

Formally, the PAD is simply an alliance of five orators. But as a political phenomenon, the PAD is also what they are saying, how they are saying it, what visual messages they convey, and who is supporting them.

The movement's main stated aim is to overthrow the current government. Normally any movement that professed this aim would be labelled dangerous, even revolutionary, and be strongly handled by the authorities. Strangely that is not happening. Probably that is because we know its true aim is to obstruct Thaksin's overt return to politics.

The movement's longer-term aim is to undermine the central principles of electoral democracy, namely the sovereignty of the people, and the selection of a parliament by the system of one-man, one-vote. The PAD leaders claim that the electorate cannot be trusted with the franchise because the mass of rural people are uneducated and corrupt. They want the elected portion of the lower house reduced to a minority (perhaps 30 per cent), and the remainder filled partly by "retired officials and important people" and partly by ordinary people and workers, selected by appointment. Since the logic of the PAD's proposal is to disenfranchise the rural poor, this new system is likely to favour the rich, the urban, and the higher educated.

In addition, the PAD wants the military to have a permanent role of political oversight. The military would be removed from political control (by making the defence ministry independent of the Cabinet), and granted the right to intervene in politics to check corruption and to protect the monarchy and national sovereignty.

The PAD seems against the freedom of expression, and in favour of the use of abuse and intimidation to limit the freedom of expression. This conclusion is based on the way PAD orators treat academics, actors or other public figures who disagree with its views. This tactic seems to have been quite successful. Some critics have apologised. The press has been generally rather uncritical of PAD's views and activities.

The PAD makes use of military and martial symbolism. Some of the leaders like to wear brown shirts and black shirts that resemble military and paramilitary uniforms. The headbands worn by leaders and followers recall the outfits of traditional warriors, samurai, and jungle fighters. The oversized neckscarf comes from the scouts, village scouts, and jungle fighters. It is not Chamlong's rural-ascetic look but this barracks-chic that distinguishes the movement. Among the supporters, yellow flags, headbands, T-shirts, and caps combine to give the impression of commonality and conformity which is the role of uniforms.

PAD promotes a visceral nationalism reminiscent of the early Phibun era. The nation is a body that is being physically ripped by its enemies (internal and external), causing pain to the citizens, who must rise up in the nation's defence.

The PAD's agitational practice suggests a high degree of organisation, strong financing, access to technology, and skill with sophisticated techniques. The equipment for staging and broadcasting the PAD's message requires high capital cost and running expenses. The crowds are well organised and provisioned. The programming shows strategic planning to sustain support and interest with relatively little novelty. The PAD seems skilled in the techniques and rituals of litigation. In short, this is not a few people gathered at a street corner with a soap box.

Analysing the PAD's audience on the streets and in front of television screens is difficult. There are only stray interviews, plus pictures. Perhaps the single word that emerges from this impressionistic data is "respectable". The crowds are generally smartly dressed. The age profile is quite high, though there are also many families in attendance (and the TV audience may be significantly younger). Head-counting from press photos shows a slight preponderance of women over men. From the few on-site interviews available, the crowds include retirees, public servants, small business people, and senior executives from modern firms. There seem to be relatively few manual workers.

The PAD is clearly well connected to other institutions. One of its leaders is a Democrat MP. Other Democrats have spoken from its stages. So too have academics from some of Bangkok's major universities. A serving general has taken the PAD stage in his full uniform. Other military figures, including General Saprang Kalayanamitra, have been seen backstage and are open in their support.

The PAD seems to be protected, perhaps by friends in important places, but also by virtue of its widespread urban support. No other Bangkok protest has suffered so little harassment. When the prime minister angrily threatened to clear PAD off the streets, the security forces refused to cooperate and the prime minister had to back down. When PAD set up a permanent blockade of roads, the police stood aside and public-opinion surveys were surprisingly lenient over the disruption to traffic. When the protest moved to Government House, the police resistance looked like a token showing designed to fail. This apparent immunity gives weight to PAD's message.

The PAD is flirting with the old agent provocateur's technique of placing its own crudely armed gangs in places where they will be attacked by enemies. This creates violent incidents, apparently initiated by their opponents, though in truth a result of the inherent violence of the PAD itself.

In short, PAD is an anti-democratic movement, supported by high investment and shadowy protection, that exploits the fears of the privileged and a deliberately anti-rational nationalism, and flirts with militarism and violence.

Is PAD a bulldog, let out on a leash for a specific purpose, that will be chained up when the threat from thieves has passed? Or is it another step in the destruction of democracy begun by Thaksin, continued by the coup-makers, and now plunging ahead on the momentum?

Source: http://nationmultime...on_30078561.php

Good post, however the description of the crowds seems to come from the early days of the illegal occupation. There was a programme on Channel 9 last week , Kon kon kon, that did a special on the crowds at the PAD site. Kon kon kon usually runs programmes about poor or handicapped individuals struggling against the odds. It went to the PAD site because apparently many of Bangkoks homeless ( usually around 30,000 sleeping rough but figure varies with season and economic climate ) have been attracted there by the free facilities, food, clothing ( yellow ) shelter , medical check ups etc. Many of the poor interviewed didn't have a clue who the PAD or the govournment were and did'nt give a hoot. A freebie is a freebie to them. Little kids were shown who could mumble a few rota learned slogans ( na rak ) and lots of vendors who are hoping the protest becomes a permanent feature as ,on account of the many free pitches , they are making more money than usual, One noodle seller who did understand who the PAD were and disliked them nonetheless said it was a good thing for him as he had doubled his takings.
I thought it ironic that the very people who PAD want to disenfranchise are the very ones making up the bulk of the ' in for the long haul ' PAD mob.

[steveromagnino]

Bangyai, on 2008-09-22 19:28:45, said:

Good post, however the description of the crowds seems to come from the early days of the illegal occupation.

There was a programme on Channel 9 last week , Kon kon kon, that did a special on the crowds at the PAD site. Kon kon kon usually runs programmes about poor or handicapped individuals struggling against the odds. It went to the PAD site because apparently many of Bangkoks homeless ( usually around 30,000 sleeping rough but figure varies with season and economic climate ) have been attracted there by the free facilities, food, clothing ( yellow ) shelter , medical check ups etc. Many of the poor interviewed didn't have a clue who the PAD or the govournment were and did'nt give a hoot. A freebie is a freebie to them. Little kids were shown who could mumble a few rota learned slogans ( na rak ) and lots of vendors who are hoping the protest becomes a permanent feature as ,on account of the many free pitches , they are making more money than usual, One noodle seller who did understand who the PAD were and disliked them nonetheless said it was a good thing for him as he had doubled his takings.
I thought it ironic that the very people who PAD want to disenfranchise are the very ones making up the bulk of the ' in for the long haul ' PAD mob.

Let's face it there are poor people supporting both UDP and PAD; the two extremist groups on both sides.  The difference is there are actually many non paid people supporting PAD ( I personally know a ton of them who go from time to time); there are almost none supporting UDP which is a mob for hire of Newin mostly.

That said, the majority of Thais are somewhere in the middle, and the attempts of PAD and extreme PPP supporters to try to claim some sort of there are only two groups, 'those extremists on the other side and the rest of us on our side' is very damaging.

Channel 9 is obviously going to promote PPP (same as Channel 11) due to the obvious PPP connections (and my company works for one of these networks, if you work for either station then I am sure you've seen the same blatant reward/punishments that the rest of us have seen).  

It is not that suprising Isuppose that you would consider that the PAD is trying to 'disenfranchise the homeless' being that you are a major cheer leader for the PPP the whole way through this and many other threads.  I and most others have little idea what the PAD is trying to do given that they change their mind all the time.  The Nation article referred to is so jumbled it is tough to discern much from that either.

I also have minimal idea of what the PPP are trying to do either incidentally, other than trying to save their boss in any way they can.  They certainly haven't appeared to have any interest in helping the homeless either; they actually haven't done anything in the last few months other than a few free buses which are a party political.

Two totally inept groups - I like to describe them as the bland leading the blind.

That said what TRT/PPP got up to with regards to democracy is F&*King terrifying if you worked in business and weren't part of their inner group or worked in the media or any independent non governmental group not seen to be on their side.  

As far as the provincial politicians, let's face it the same group are always in power there, so let's give the villagers a chance to vote for them and pretend to have a democracy for now; at some point they may start using their vote for people other than the gangsters (sorry alledged gangsters  in some cases and actually recognised internationally gangsters in other cases) that are currently paid for by Chart Thai and PPP buy may at some switch their allegiances in the future as they used to with the Dems, New Aspiration party, Chart Pattana Chart Thai etc etc.

The

[Bangyai]

steveromagnino, on 2008-09-22 20:48:27, said:

As far as the provincial politicians, let's face it the same group are always in power there, so let's give the villagers a chance to vote for them and pretend to have a democracy for now; at some point they may start using their vote for people other than the gangsters (sorry alledged gangsters in some cases and actually recognised internationally gangsters in other cases) that are currently paid for by Chart Thai and PPP buy may at some switch their allegiances in the future as they used to with the Dems, New Aspiration party, Chart Pattana Chart Thai etc etc.

The END ???

I hope you don't mind, I took the liberty of tidying up the end of your post or were you in a hurry ?
Anyway, just to clarify my position and probably the position of many others who make anti PAD posts...yes, I do not like the PAD....but no , I am not particularly pro PPP. What I do think is that now Samak is gone the govournment should be given a chance before being condemned. As pro PAD posters sometimes point out...this democracy is not working as it should and is riddled with corrupt politicians. This I agree with. What I don't think is in the Thai peoples best interests is throwing the baby out with the water and scrapping everything in favour of the ruling elite.Its no use saying ' democracy doesn't work in Thailand, lets scrap it altogether '. Democracy takes time to mature. There was a time in England when you had to be a land owner to vote and women didn't have the vote at all. Those in power were the self serving elite who lived very well at the expense of the poor . Until 1932, Thailand was an absolute monarchy and it is only fairly recently that the majority of the Thais have had any say in things at all. If they sell their votes, it does not seem logical to take the vote away from them . As h90 suggested, it would be a good idea if vote sellers were fined. To give people an additional incentive there could be financial rewards given to people who report people who attempt buy votes.
  As Prachatai suggested , the PAD could be a very useful social action group and govournment watchdog if they limited themselves to blowing the whistle on corrupt politicians. As it is, the PAD leadership , apart from wishing to destroy the govournment, seem to have their own muddled agenda which will mark the death knoll for Thailands ailing democracy....a real negative step at a time when there is now,a real chance to progress. There are other issues but I would be digressing to far.

[Los78]

WinnieTheKhwai, on 2008-07-24 09:27:53, said:

I think PAD are SEVERELY misguided... What a bunch of clowns! It's actually very worrying that so many people take them serious, Farangs included.

Yes its sad how some Farangs want a form of dictatorship when in their home countries people have a free democracy where every vote counts.

[sabaijai]

Fight for democracy  

The opinions of non-Thais range from disbelief to disdain and disgust at what is going on with Thai democracy. Here is help for our foreign critics to understand how we got into this mess.

By Voranai Vanijaka

In recent times, "democracy" is a word that has been thrown around more often than a ping pong ball in Patpong - and suffers about the same level of degradation.

From words in the pubs to letters in Postbag, to the reports by foreign correspondents and commentaries by the esteemed editors of various prestigious western media, everyone has an opinion on what democracy is, and that it either does not exist in Thailand, or has been battered and abused into something quite undemocratic.

From the observations of many non-Thais, opinions have ranged anywhere from disbelief to disdain and downright disgust at what is going on with the democracy of this Kingdom. With harsh words and brutal assaults, slamming and insulting the Kingdom, and with it, my fellow countrymen.

Well, allow me to address our foreign critics and help form an understanding of how we got into this mess. Though by all means, this observation is one man's humble opinion offered up to be considered, discussed and debated; nothing less, nothing more.

In the West, democracy is a tradition of over 2,000 years old, although it had taken a nap for centuries before it was rediscovered. One may trace the origin of modern democracy to the French Revolution (1782), the American Revolution (1776), or even the signing of the Magna Carta (1215). But no matter which event one would like to attribute modern democracy to, it is unarguable that Western democracy has been several centuries in the making and written by numerous conflicts and much bloodshed.

So if the West has gone through centuries of mistakes, of trials and tribulations, to arrive at a healthy, though imperfect system of modern democracy, why can't Thailand embrace the finished product, packaged with a beautiful ribbon? Well, it's not that we don't want to.

To understand where we are now, one must look at the historical evolution of Thailand since the conversion to constitutional monarchy in 1932.

From our first prime minister, Praya Manopakorn Nititada, to our latest, Somchai Wongsawat, in the 76 years since there have been 36 prime ministers, most of whom were "appointees", by the military or otherwise.

There were many reasons behind these "appointees", military or otherwise, not least of which was the influence of the superpowers and their Cold War chess match. Like the majority of the Third World, we were but a pawn served up on a platter with a side order of freedom fries by our leaders, to be exploited in the name of democracy against the rising tides of communism. Never mind the fact that we ourselves were ruled by military dictators for much of that time.

It wasn't until 1988 when we sustained a succession of "elected" leaders, starting with the government of General Chartchai Chunhawan.

Only for 20 years had the electoral process been able to sustain breathing room in this Kingdom, minus the hiccups in Black May 1992 and the 2006 coup. Is the Thai democracy young and fragile? It's a sickly, crying toddler in an incubator. So why, I ask you, would anyone look at an infant in an incubator with disdain and disgust?

Through much of our history in the 20th century, the overwhelming majority of the Thai population were peasant farmers, the backbone of the Kingdom, who wouldn't know a democracy from a tamagochi. How could they? With little to no education, their primary concerns were simply feeding and clothing their children? Democratic ideals are the luxury of the "haves", the "have nots" hold graver concerns. Is that so unbelievable? So disdainful? So disgusting?

It was only the economic boom of the late 1980s and 1990s, the advances in communication technology and globalisation, that saw the burgeoning middle class. Western education, or education period, was no longer the privilege of the elites.

Be that as it may, not unlike the period of Industrial Revolution in the West, the people were much more infatuated with the newfound riches than the ideals of democracy. Human nature: a pile of cash on the table versus some lofty ideal, which would the average Somchai and Somying one generation removed from the rice field (or the villages of Communist China) choose? Is that so disdainful, so disgusting, so unbelievable?

The infant may be wearing Gucci and the incubator may be the latest Mercedes model, but the fact is, in the 1990s Thailand's democracy was still just an infant in the incubator. As such, we were easily exploited by corrupt leaders, thrifty merchants (local and foreign) and, of course, our own greed. That is disdainful and disgusting, but which country has never gone through such a period? Like puberty, it isn't pretty, but it's a natural process of evolution.

With the Asian financial crisis of 1997, we woke up and realised that we simply exchanged "appointees", military or otherwise, for opportunistic thugs and gangsters, who knew about running a country and economy as much as we Thais know how to queue up in orderly fashion to board/deboard the Sky Train. They simply sneaked into office while the educated middle class were too busy having a bubble bath.

Then it happened. Clouds parted, Beethoven's Symphony No 3 echoed out of nowhere, the birds and the bees chanted, "hallelujah, hallelujah, hallelujah"! For the messiah had arrived! He was not a general, nor a gangster. He was a businessman who built a telecommunication empire with his own hands.

For a society that had embraced capitalism for only a little over a decade, we were googoo and gaagaa over him like he was some K-pop heartthrob. For the first time in the history of Thailand, the rich, the poor and those in between agreed on one thing: Thaksin Shinawatra was our man.

Chuan Leekpai was solid, but he was a plain housewife. This new guy was Paris Hilton on steroids. Is it so unbelievable, so disdainful, so disgusting? Infant in an incubator, we were lost lambs, confused and desperate, then came our shepherd, our saviour, all glittery in golden lights.

And well, you know the rest of the story.

Here we are in 2008. Duped and deceived, scarred and full of scorn. Conflict in all levels of society. Flocking to the banner of the PAD are simply people who have had enough. Sure, the leaders of the PAD are questionable. Sure, many of the PAD's tactics are unsavoury. But allow me to speak for the average Thai person - rich, middle and poor - we marched simply because we have had enough.

Similar to Black May 1992. Then we marched because we wanted no more military dictatorship, but now we march because we want no more greedy money merchants and their thuggish cronies.

Is this undermining democracy? There is no democracy to undermine. We never had it. Democracy isn't just about going to the poll and voting. Democracy isn't about smiling as you are getting screwed over once again. That may be fine for countries with healthy, but imperfect democracy. But here, in this corner of the Third World, we are tired of taking it lying down and are simply saying enough is enough.

They don't hand out democracy at the local mom and pop store, and it isn't on sale at Central or Paragon. One must fight for it.

It's an ugly fight. But is there such a thing as a pretty fight? Definitely, there isn't anything democratic about a fight, just ask the Coalition of the Willing. At least we avoid bloodshed as best we can. Granted, a lot of us aren't even sure what we're fighting for, a lot of us are simply venting frustrations and anger, but at least we're conscious and alive enough to stand up and fight.

Certainly there are and will be mistakes to overcome, trials and tribulations to triumph over in the road ahead. As I wrote in my first commentary on Sept 14, we Thais also have to look at ourselves and start the change with ourselves, not just point fingers at our corrupt leaders.

Is it so unbelievable, disdainful, disgusting? For those who are understanding, we thank you. For those who are not, please take no offence. You don't have to help us, or support us, constructive criticisms are welcomed and appreciated. But beg your pardon, please do not insult us. Especially if you are a guest in our country.

[Los78]

I believe in the freedom to vote and that everyone's vote should be counted equally.  It should not matter if they are poor farmers or the the rich elite.   If someone is trying to take someone's voting power away I will fight against that group.   PAD is clear in its intent to take away peoples voting power so in my mind this is the worst form of curruption there is.

[JohnBanPrang]

Thank you for your free propaganda.
"bangkok post on steroids !!!! "
What about Voranai Vanijaka.
His hands are clean.
Not paid, independent point of view.
555555555
Bangkok post is the real deal???
Wake up.

[JohnBanPrang]

sabaijai, on 2008-09-22 22:23:29, said:

Fight for democracy

The opinions of non-Thais range from disbelief to disdain and disgust at what is going on with Thai democracy. Here is help for our foreign critics to understand how we got into this mess.

By Voranai Vanijaka

In recent times, "democracy" is a word that has been thrown around more often than a ping pong ball in Patpong - and suffers about the same level of degradation.

From words in the pubs to letters in Postbag, to the reports by foreign correspondents and commentaries by the esteemed editors of various prestigious western media, everyone has an opinion on what democracy is, and that it either does not exist in Thailand, or has been battered and abused into something quite undemocratic.

From the observations of many non-Thais, opinions have ranged anywhere from disbelief to disdain and downright disgust at what is going on with the democracy of this Kingdom. With harsh words and brutal assaults, slamming and insulting the Kingdom, and with it, my fellow countrymen.

Well, allow me to address our foreign critics and help form an understanding of how we got into this mess. Though by all means, this observation is one man's humble opinion offered up to be considered, discussed and debated; nothing less, nothing more.

In the West, democracy is a tradition of over 2,000 years old, although it had taken a nap for centuries before it was rediscovered. One may trace the origin of modern democracy to the French Revolution (1782), the American Revolution (1776), or even the signing of the Magna Carta (1215). But no matter which event one would like to attribute modern democracy to, it is unarguable that Western democracy has been several centuries in the making and written by numerous conflicts and much bloodshed.

So if the West has gone through centuries of mistakes, of trials and tribulations, to arrive at a healthy, though imperfect system of modern democracy, why can't Thailand embrace the finished product, packaged with a beautiful ribbon? Well, it's not that we don't want to.

To understand where we are now, one must look at the historical evolution of Thailand since the conversion to constitutional monarchy in 1932.

From our first prime minister, Praya Manopakorn Nititada, to our latest, Somchai Wongsawat, in the 76 years since there have been 36 prime ministers, most of whom were "appointees", by the military or otherwise.

There were many reasons behind these "appointees", military or otherwise, not least of which was the influence of the superpowers and their Cold War chess match. Like the majority of the Third World, we were but a pawn served up on a platter with a side order of freedom fries by our leaders, to be exploited in the name of democracy against the rising tides of communism. Never mind the fact that we ourselves were ruled by military dictators for much of that time.

It wasn't until 1988 when we sustained a succession of "elected" leaders, starting with the government of General Chartchai Chunhawan.

Only for 20 years had the electoral process been able to sustain breathing room in this Kingdom, minus the hiccups in Black May 1992 and the 2006 coup. Is the Thai democracy young and fragile? It's a sickly, crying toddler in an incubator. So why, I ask you, would anyone look at an infant in an incubator with disdain and disgust?

Through much of our history in the 20th century, the overwhelming majority of the Thai population were peasant farmers, the backbone of the Kingdom, who wouldn't know a democracy from a tamagochi. How could they? With little to no education, their primary concerns were simply feeding and clothing their children? Democratic ideals are the luxury of the "haves", the "have nots" hold graver concerns. Is that so unbelievable? So disdainful? So disgusting?

It was only the economic boom of the late 1980s and 1990s, the advances in communication technology and globalisation, that saw the burgeoning middle class. Western education, or education period, was no longer the privilege of the elites.

Be that as it may, not unlike the period of Industrial Revolution in the West, the people were much more infatuated with the newfound riches than the ideals of democracy. Human nature: a pile of cash on the table versus some lofty ideal, which would the average Somchai and Somying one generation removed from the rice field (or the villages of Communist China) choose? Is that so disdainful, so disgusting, so unbelievable?

The infant may be wearing Gucci and the incubator may be the latest Mercedes model, but the fact is, in the 1990s Thailand's democracy was still just an infant in the incubator. As such, we were easily exploited by corrupt leaders, thrifty merchants (local and foreign) and, of course, our own greed. That is disdainful and disgusting, but which country has never gone through such a period? Like puberty, it isn't pretty, but it's a natural process of evolution.

With the Asian financial crisis of 1997, we woke up and realised that we simply exchanged "appointees", military or otherwise, for opportunistic thugs and gangsters, who knew about running a country and economy as much as we Thais know how to queue up in orderly fashion to board/deboard the Sky Train. They simply sneaked into office while the educated middle class were too busy having a bubble bath.

Then it happened. Clouds parted, Beethoven's Symphony No 3 echoed out of nowhere, the birds and the bees chanted, "hallelujah, hallelujah, hallelujah"! For the messiah had arrived! He was not a general, nor a gangster. He was a businessman who built a telecommunication empire with his own hands.

For a society that had embraced capitalism for only a little over a decade, we were googoo and gaagaa over him like he was some K-pop heartthrob. For the first time in the history of Thailand, the rich, the poor and those in between agreed on one thing: Thaksin Shinawatra was our man.

Chuan Leekpai was solid, but he was a plain housewife. This new guy was Paris Hilton on steroids. Is it so unbelievable, so disdainful, so disgusting? Infant in an incubator, we were lost lambs, confused and desperate, then came our shepherd, our saviour, all glittery in golden lights.

And well, you know the rest of the story.

Here we are in 2008. Duped and deceived, scarred and full of scorn. Conflict in all levels of society. Flocking to the banner of the PAD are simply people who have had enough. Sure, the leaders of the PAD are questionable. Sure, many of the PAD's tactics are unsavoury. But allow me to speak for the average Thai person - rich, middle and poor - we marched simply because we have had enough.

Similar to Black May 1992. Then we marched because we wanted no more military dictatorship, but now we march because we want no more greedy money merchants and their thuggish cronies.

Is this undermining democracy? There is no democracy to undermine. We never had it. Democracy isn't just about going to the poll and voting. Democracy isn't about smiling as you are getting screwed over once again. That may be fine for countries with healthy, but imperfect democracy. But here, in this corner of the Third World, we are tired of taking it lying down and are simply saying enough is enough.

They don't hand out democracy at the local mom and pop store, and it isn't on sale at Central or Paragon. One must fight for it.

It's an ugly fight. But is there such a thing as a pretty fight? Definitely, there isn't anything democratic about a fight, just ask the Coalition of the Willing. At least we avoid bloodshed as best we can. Granted, a lot of us aren't even sure what we're fighting for, a lot of us are simply venting frustrations and anger, but at least we're conscious and alive enough to stand up and fight.

Certainly there are and will be mistakes to overcome, trials and tribulations to triumph over in the road ahead. As I wrote in my first commentary on Sept 14, we Thais also have to look at ourselves and start the change with ourselves, not just point fingers at our corrupt leaders.

Is it so unbelievable, disdainful, disgusting? For those who are understanding, we thank you. For those who are not, please take no offence. You don't have to help us, or support us, constructive criticisms are welcomed and appreciated. But beg your pardon, please do not insult us. Especially if you are a guest in our country.

I'm still in shock!!!!
Sabaijai, why you can't tell us where you got this info from???

[LaoPo]

JohnBanPrang, on 2008-09-22 23:23:39, said:

I'm still in shock!!!!
Sabaijai, why you can't tell us where you got this info from???

It was mentioned a few messages earlier already...published in Bangkok...



I said it before, I say it again and WILL repeat it as long as they publish and protest, trying to implement their so called New Politics Propaganda:

The PAD is a very dangerous movement for the future of Thailand; it reminds me of an era, 1933-1945, when a country (and Europe) was ruled by a party called NSDAP*** under a TOTALITARIAN DICTATORSHIP, causing Millions of deaths. The NSDAP started the same way as the PAD does now...

That's why I am stunned, shocked and hardly believe that some TV members support this 'PAD-movement' for so called NEW POLITICS which in fact is their Propaganda, leading to a Single-Party-State and Dictatorship...with it's leader: Sondhi Limthongul !

Don't let yourselves fooled and blinded by the PAD, the protests, the Propaganda and it's leader who is staying VERY low profile the past weeks (clever...) to take the heat away from the proposed 70:30 rule...now backed off to 50:50.

***  National Sozialistischen Deutschen Arbeiterpartei...beter known as the NAZI Party.  

read the history: http://en.wikipedia....ki/Nazi_Germany



LaoPo