2915 replies to this topic
Posted 2008-10-07 11:03:51
 RenzoInOz, on 2008-10-07 09:30:16, said:
Clearly I'm out of kilter with the majority of opinions being expressed in this thread, but...
I don't consider a group of unarmed police using tear gas to disperse an unruly mob who were blocking elected members of Parliament from reaching their debating chamber an 'act of violence' as described by previous contributors, critical of Somchai.
One Aussie said Somchai's behaviour would never occur in Australia... neither would PAD's... The police would quickly and forcibly move a bunch of protestors on if they surround Parliament, erected barricades and prevented the government from going about its business. They'd use water canons, police with riot shields and batons and - as a last resort - tear gas, I'm sure. They'd also arrest the protestors, bundle them into buses and cart them off for processing. We saw them prepared to do this in Sydney during Apec last year.
The police should have acted in Bangkok sooner. Surely there is security around Parliament 24-seven, so why did no-one raise the alert and prevent the barricades being erected in the first place.
PPP is no white knight, but PAD is doing immeasurable damage to Thailand's economy by its lawlessness, illegal occupations and trespassing (airports, included). There are 800 international journalists and travel agents in Bangkok this week, all flown there by TAT and THAI - part of a Herculian effort to restore flagging tourism numbers to the country. No doubt they all turned on their hotel TVs this morning to scenes of anarchy and a strong - but justified - response by the police to restore law and order...
This sums Thailand up, to me. Add in the irrational one-eyed views of your average PAD / PPP supporter (H90...) and I don't see any hope for the immediate future. Just because the buffalos and elephants have recently left Bangkok streets don't be confused into believing that this place has other than an seventeenth century mindset / intellectual-social development.
The PAD are an absolute disgrace (not the majority of their naive supporters, but the cheating and manipulating leaders).
The PPP are a disgrace. (curruption, lack of governance...)
The so called democratic party are a disgrace ('getting into bed' with with coups leaders, 'supporting' undemocratic mobs, blatantly using ignorant nationalism to gain advantage via LM claims agaist opposition mp's ).
Politically this place is an absolute joke, and whilst the standard selfish (especially Bangkokian) attitude holds sway then nothing will change. Perhaps a slow evolution towards a democracy is all one can hope for. I'd reckon on another fifty years at a minimum before we see significant (if any) improvement.
I first came here nearly twenty years ago and remember thinking it was a great place because 'it's like the whole place is on acid'. Having matured it's sad to see that 'the whole place is still on acid'.
Posted 2008-10-07 11:05:23
Samuian, on 2008-10-07 10:56:38, said: Looks like his signature, as in the "war on drugs"! Sure is this man mad, mad about the "thieves" who "took his money", unless this man is brought to justice, there will be no peace in Thailand!
You refer to Thaksin about the war on drugs.
Were you studying the Manager media (owned by Sondhi - leader of PAD). He devoted his media to rabble rousing saying that drug dealers were worse than scum. His voice had more to do with inflamming police actions against drug pople than Thaksin. The police felt they could come down hard, as Sondhi and his papers made them out to be heroes for every dealer they off.
That was of course beofre Sondhi got refused when trying to steal a few hundred million from teh banks (refused by thaksin).
Posted 2008-10-07 11:05:43
LoongJohn, on 2008-10-07 10:58:36, said: Does any of this strike anyone as a very handy diversion?
A certain gentleman in England has lodged or is about to lodge an application for Political Asylum.
To claim that it would be dangerous for him to return to a country where the people are holding peaceful protests against a corrupt government lacks a certain something.
However, he can now point to the violence and bloodshed in the streets and squeal that he might be torn limb from limb if he has to return to such an awful place. He would have a point, too!
  
However, which way ever, he has a hand in all this!
Posted 2008-10-07 11:05:52
sriracha john, on 2008-10-07 11:01:12, said: Chai allowed lawmakers to take off their suites [sic] during the policy debate because of lack of air conditioning due to power outage.  Maybe they were really concerned about remnants of tear gas wafting through the austere council chambers?
Edited by toptuan, 2008-10-07 11:08:57.
Posted 2008-10-07 11:09:23
sriracha john, on 2008-10-07 10:42:28, said: There is quite a bit of video footage from a variety of sources of numerous people suffering severe burns or large lacerations (including the traumatic amputation of a leg posted earlier). These don't seem entirely consistent with the use of "tear-gas."
although now they are conceding that in addition to tear-gas, rubber bullets were utilized... even those don't explain the above... what will the police concede to next? 
Queen donates 100,000 baht to help the injured
Her Majesty the Queen has donated 100,000 baht to aid protestors injured early this morning when police dispersed their barrice of the Parliament.
Director of Vajira Hospital Chaiwan Charoenchoktawee revealed in an interview this morning (October 7) that so far, there were a total of 47 injuries from the police dispersal of the People's Alliance for Democracy (PAD) rally at the Parliament building.
He stated that six people were seriously injured, including four men and two women. Two of them had to go into surgery. A protester was the most severe injury with one of his legs being amputated due to an irreparable bone fracture.
Chaiwan also revealed that Her Majesty the Queen has shown great concern over the incident which saw police using tear gas and rubber bullets dissolving the demonstration.
As a result, Her Majesty the Queen has donated 100,000 baht to Vajira Hospital to be used in the care of those injured. The Queen also suggested that the costs of the medical care be submitted to the Office of Her Majesty's Principal Private Secretary.
- ThaiNews / 2008-10-07
Posted 2008-10-07 11:09:23
clausewitz, on 2008-10-07 11:05:23, said: Samuian, on 2008-10-07 10:56:38, said: Looks like his signature, as in the "war on drugs"! Sure is this man mad, mad about the "thieves" who "took his money", unless this man is brought to justice, there will be no peace in Thailand!
You refer to Thaksin about the war on drugs.
Were you studying the Manager media (owned by Sondhi - leader of PAD). He devoted his media to rabble rousing saying that drug dealers were worse than scum. His voice had more to do with inflamming police actions against drug pople than Thaksin. The police felt they could come down hard, as Sondhi and his papers made them out to be heroes for every dealer they off.
That was of course beofre Sondhi got refused when trying to steal a few hundred million from teh banks (refused by thaksin).
Sorry, who was the leader or CEO of this country then Sondhi or Taksin?
the rest is squabble, sorry, stick to the facts!
Posted 2008-10-07 11:12:16
h90, on 2008-10-07 08:36:39, said: animatic, on 2008-10-07 08:16:31, said: I think PAD is over reaching,
but I can understand their being MORE than a little upset.
No coincidense that Chamlong was arrested on the eve of
the policy speech meeting, a prefect time to make PAD mad as hel_l.
And or Chamlong decided to get out before it went down counter to
his wihes, but that is PURELY speculation. What is clear is that Thaksin
hardliners are controling the police at the moment.
Another power shift at the moment?
Another clear thing, if the PPP, about to be banned, is going to try and
redo the constitution there will be madness going on to stop them.
Without the eminent PPP Party dissolution suspending like Damocles sword,
there might be less intention to stop them, but too many feel they have
no legitimacy to rewrite the constitution during their limited month or two
of future existence. The dissolution is pretty much a foregone conclusion.
If a retro-active Thaksin and/or PPP saving amendment sees the light of day,
The streets WILL go mad. Regardless of legalistic issues, PPP is playing with fire.
It shows THEIR desperation as much as Thaksin's and PAD's to stop them.
If they try to continue to stop the street with force, to back up saving their OWN ASSES.
it will go very very bad. Graft the people would accept up to a point, stupidity of decisions,
they seem to except as S.O.P., but width, depth and breadth of PAD support is showing
that the limits of what they will tolerate is very, very close to the edge right now.
PPP is playing with fire, and not just from PAD, this is only the spearhead.
May you live in interesting times, Somchai...
Don't listen to the man behind the curtain,
he may be family, but he ain't your friend.
PAD is not overreacting....Think for the amendment move of the constitution which is in Parliament today. that might be a surprise move by the PPP to quickly change the constitution.
I think some people are forgetting (or oblivious to some important facts here).
1. PAD are not a democratic opposition party. They are a elitist group of people who want to alter the constitution themselves to deny many common people equal rights to vote.
2. Most people in Bangkok know that they are paying people money to be involved in the demonstration. Many of these people have no idea of what they are doing, they only want the money.
3. They are disrupting government from proceeding in an anarchial way that would not be tolerated in any Western country. Why should the government here allow it??? Blockade Parliament in England, Australia or America etc and see what the response would be. I think they have tolerated this lot for too long.
Posted 2008-10-07 11:13:46
clausewitz, on 2008-10-07 11:05:23, said: Samuian, on 2008-10-07 10:56:38, said: Looks like his signature, as in the "war on drugs"! Sure is this man mad, mad about the "thieves" who "took his money", unless this man is brought to justice, there will be no peace in Thailand!
You refer to Thaksin about the war on drugs.
Were you studying the Manager media (owned by Sondhi - leader of PAD). He devoted his media to rabble rousing saying that drug dealers were worse than scum. His voice had more to do with inflamming police actions against drug pople than Thaksin. The police felt they could come down hard, as Sondhi and his papers made them out to be heroes for every dealer they off.
That was of course beofre Sondhi got refused when trying to steal a few hundred million from teh banks (refused by thaksin).
Coming down on dealers is not the same as killing innocents
just cause they are close buy or related to dealers.
Or shooting up homes based on misinformation.
Sondhi never said go do that. Thaksin gave them carte blanche
and SPECIFIC instructions to run up big numbers...
The buck stops at the top, not in the press editors office.
Posted 2008-10-07 11:16:17
Yes we heard the bombs going off at 6 this morning and I was faced with lines of riot police and traffic chaos at Phichia on my motorbike on the way to work. The surrounding streets are now filling with reinforcements from the PAD as the police are also reinforcing. We'll be watching things closely today, could go either way.
Roachie
Posted 2008-10-07 11:20:26
csolgosz, on 2008-10-07 11:12:16, said: h90, on 2008-10-07 08:36:39, said: animatic, on 2008-10-07 08:16:31, said: I think PAD is over reaching,
but I can understand their being MORE than a little upset.
No coincidense that Chamlong was arrested on the eve of
the policy speech meeting, a prefect time to make PAD mad as hel_l.
And or Chamlong decided to get out before it went down counter to
his wihes, but that is PURELY speculation. What is clear is that Thaksin
hardliners are controling the police at the moment.
Another power shift at the moment?
Another clear thing, if the PPP, about to be banned, is going to try and
redo the constitution there will be madness going on to stop them.
Without the eminent PPP Party dissolution suspending like Damocles sword,
there might be less intention to stop them, but too many feel they have
no legitimacy to rewrite the constitution during their limited month or two
of future existence. The dissolution is pretty much a foregone conclusion.
If a retro-active Thaksin and/or PPP saving amendment sees the light of day,
The streets WILL go mad. Regardless of legalistic issues, PPP is playing with fire.
It shows THEIR desperation as much as Thaksin's and PAD's to stop them.
If they try to continue to stop the street with force, to back up saving their OWN ASSES.
it will go very very bad. Graft the people would accept up to a point, stupidity of decisions,
they seem to except as S.O.P., but width, depth and breadth of PAD support is showing
that the limits of what they will tolerate is very, very close to the edge right now.
PPP is playing with fire, and not just from PAD, this is only the spearhead.
May you live in interesting times, Somchai...
Don't listen to the man behind the curtain,
he may be family, but he ain't your friend.
PAD is not overreacting....Think for the amendment move of the constitution which is in Parliament today. that might be a surprise move by the PPP to quickly change the constitution.
I think some people are forgetting (or oblivious to some important facts here).
1. PAD are not a democratic opposition party. They are a elitist group of people who want to alter the constitution themselves to deny many common people equal rights to vote.
2. Most people in Bangkok know that they are paying people money to be involved in the demonstration. Many of these people have no idea of what they are doing, they only want the money.
3. They are disrupting government from proceeding in an anarchial way that would not be tolerated in any Western country. Why should the government here allow it??? Blockade Parliament in England, Australia or America etc and see what the response would be. I think they have tolerated this lot for too long.
Complete nonsense!
1. PPP did a lot vote buying and is on the way to be dissolved. Never heard that the PAD want to exclude someone from their right to vote.
2. Wrong. All my staff and my wife are there every day, they beg you to tell where they could collect any money. It is a rumor made by PPP
3. In any western country this government would be in jail. In any western country the police would jail the PPP a long time already.
Posted 2008-10-07 11:26:57
sriracha john, on 2008-10-07 06:27:27, said: toptuan, on 2008-10-07 09:51:52, said: I've witnessed two tear-gas attacks where there were no serious injuries (Berkeley, CA in the 1960's and WTO riots in Seattle). This is the first time I've become aware of the possibility of serious injuries under such an attack. After all, the purpose of tear-gas use is to disperse crowds without serious bodily injury.
Is this a different sort of ammunition being used, from that commonly used in western riot-control? Anyone know?
There certainly does seem to be an inordinate amount of blood-letting with this, Somchai's "soft approach", compared to other tear-gassing episodes...
From the picture it would appear that those shooting gas cannisters are aiming low, possibly directly at the crowd; not at spaces between segments of the crowd. One would think that they should be 'lobbing' the cannisters using a high-angle approach to avoid directly striking anyone.
Posted 2008-10-07 11:29:00
House Speaker Chai Chidchob
Recently (last week) resigned People Power Party Spokesman and current People Power Party MP Kuthep Saikrajang
House Speaker extends time to achieve quorum
House Speaker Chai Chidchob has extended the time duration for MPs' meeting at the Parliament to achieve quorum with many MPs criticizing those who failed to show up, including the opposition Democrat party whose members abstained from the meeting.
The Parliament's began its meeting today (October 7) at 9.30 am. as earlier scheduled despite the People's Alliance for Democracy (PAD)'s activity seeking to deter it.
House Speaker Chai Chidchob decided to extend time waiting for the meeting to reach quorum by an hour in light of the events.
However, MPs who showed up at the meeting's hall in the Parliament were allowed to conduct the meeting nonetheless with discussion mainly calling on MPs who have not yet made their ways to the meeting to be aware of the importance of the government's policy declaration. They also heavily criticized the opposition Democrat Party which has chosen to abstain from the meeting.
People Power Party MP Kuthep Saikrajang commented that he would not point to who was responsible for the turmoil at this juncture, adding the international community was closely watching Thailand.
He stated that he would only express sympathy with police who were trying to uphold order of the Parliament, regarded as the sacred building. He also criticized MPs who have not attended the meeting this morning.
- ThaiNews / 2008-10-07
Posted 2008-10-07 11:29:18
Samuian, on 2008-10-07 11:05:43, said: LoongJohn, on 2008-10-07 10:58:36, said: Does any of this strike anyone as a very handy diversion?
A certain gentleman in England has lodged or is about to lodge an application for Political Asylum.
To claim that it would be dangerous for him to return to a country where the people are holding peaceful protests against a corrupt government lacks a certain something.
However, he can now point to the violence and bloodshed in the streets and squeal that he might be torn limb from limb if he has to return to such an awful place. He would have a point, too!
However, which way ever, he has a hand in all this!
The Snowball syndrome again as readers of Orwell will recognise.
Posted 2008-10-07 11:32:31
WAERTH, on 2008-10-07 07:59:55, said: Dear mister Somchai is showing his true face very fast. He asks for peace with one hand and with the other hand he commits violence. Shows what kind of a person he is.
Waerth
What a load of rot! He was acting exactly as any gov should under law when gov land has been taken seige. When will you guys supporting PAD stop this rot that they have a right to occupy this land. As a father of 2 Thai citizens it disgusts me.
"One man appeared to have been hit by a tear-gas grenade as he he ran, breaking or tearing off part of his leg."
Edited by sbk, 2008-10-07 12:12:04.
no flaming!--sbk
Posted 2008-10-07 11:33:09
Clash erupts between protesters and police
Around 11 am, police fired a new round of tear gas at protesters rallying at the Royal Plaza near the Metropolitan Police Bureau. Sound of explosions were heard behind the police line.
It remains unclear whether police also lobbed smoke bombs at the protesters.
- The Nation / 2008-10-07
Posted 2008-10-07 11:34:04
sriracha john, on 2008-10-07 10:42:28, said: There is quite a bit of video footage from a variety of sources of numerous people suffering severe burns or large lacerations (including the traumatic amputation of a leg posted earlier). These don't seem entirely consistent with the use of "tear-gas."
Shooting AT someone would do that and worse.
Posted 2008-10-07 11:34:44
george, on 2008-10-07 07:12:07, said: Urgent: Police fire tear gas at protesters in front of Parliament
BANGKOK: -- Police fire dozens of tear gases at protesters, who staged a blockade outside Parliament at 6:20 am.
The firing of tear gases managed to open an access to Parliament at the gate on Phichai Road.
Leading members of the People's Alliance for Democracy urged the protesters to remain protesting there.
-- The Nation 2008-10-07
just spoke to my wife, professor suan dusit, protesters on campus w/ golf clubs. fairly nasty.
something about somebody loosing a leg to tear gas attack, " the police are not very well trained" her response. democracy ar work. ( at least there is no patriot act in los.)
Edited by warmwater7, 2008-10-07 11:40:52.
Posted 2008-10-07 11:38:38
Army Chief monitors the anti-riot measures
Army Chief General Anupong Paochinda has called an urgent meeting of the five top Army generals to closely monitor the anti-riot operations. He is also meeting with top commanders of three wings of the armed forces.
Anupong is assessing the situation, but has not drawn conclusion on the police action.
It is expected that the military will issue a statement in the afternoon.
The Nation / 2008-10-07
Posted 2008-10-07 11:41:05
sunrise07, on 2008-10-07 08:48:01, said: They aren't his kids that are in harm's way. Why should Sondhi care?
Chai YO, the megomanic was seen running the other way, jumped into his Maybeck with bullet proof glass and made for the underground bunkers at ASTV. His group of minders(thugs, as per NBT viewing) were close behind bringing up the rear. Children and women used extensively as shield were used to clear a smooth path for the legendary enlightened one!! Only 4 children remain stuck in the drive shaft of the getaway car. RIP
Edited by jayjayjayjay, 2008-10-07 11:49:33.
Posted 2008-10-07 11:51:39
jayjayjayjay, on 2008-10-07 11:32:31, said: WAERTH, on 2008-10-07 07:59:55, said: Dear mister Somchai is showing his true face very fast. He asks for peace with one hand and with the other hand he commits violence. Shows what kind of a person he is.
Waerth
What a load of rot! He was acting exactly as any gov should under law when gov land has been taken seige. When will you guys supporting PAD stop this rot that they have a right to occupy this land. As a father of 2 Thai citizens it disgusts me.
"One man appeared to have been hit by a tear-gas grenade as he he ran, breaking or tearing off part of his leg."
As father of 2 Thai citizens, you should stay there and fight for their good future.....
Posted 2008-10-07 11:56:37
ataloss, on 2008-10-07 11:26:57, said: Quote
There certainly does seem to be an inordinate amount of blood-letting with this, Somchai's "soft approach", compared to other tear-gassing episodes...
From the picture it would appear that those shooting gas cannisters are aiming low, possibly directly at the crowd; not at spaces between segments of the crowd. One would think that they should be 'lobbing' the cannisters using a high-angle approach to avoid directly striking anyone.
I strongly believe that the launching of these grenades has to be in an upright angel NOT horizontally, how else the many injuries plus the horrible loss of a leg be explained?
And then, WHO gave the order to aim low, or even at random into the crowd?
Well, does this make the declared "soft approach" a farce, or a lie?
Any estimates anyone?
Posted 2008-10-07 11:56:52
RenzoInOz, on 2008-10-07 09:30:16, said: Clearly I'm out of kilter with the majority of opinions being expressed in this thread, but...
I don't consider a group of unarmed police using tear gas to disperse an unruly mob who were blocking elected members of Parliament from reaching their debating chamber an 'act of violence' as described by previous contributors, critical of Somchai.
One Aussie said Somchai's behaviour would never occur in Australia... neither would PAD's... The police would quickly and forcibly move a bunch of protestors on if they surround Parliament, erected barricades and prevented the government from going about its business. They'd use water canons, police with riot shields and batons and - as a last resort - tear gas, I'm sure. They'd also arrest the protestors, bundle them into buses and cart them off for processing. We saw them prepared to do this in Sydney during Apec last year.
The police should have acted in Bangkok sooner. Surely there is security around Parliament 24-seven, so why did no-one raise the alert and prevent the barricades being erected in the first place.
PPP is no white knight, but PAD is doing immeasurable damage to Thailand's economy by its lawlessness, illegal occupations and trespassing (airports, included). There are 800 international journalists and travel agents in Bangkok this week, all flown there by TAT and THAI - part of a Herculian effort to restore flagging tourism numbers to the country. No doubt they all turned on their hotel TVs this morning to scenes of anarchy and a strong - but justified - response by the police to restore law and order...
About time there was some balance. All these arm chair pundits giving their opinion sledging the Government for finally doing something that would have happened long ago in their own country.
What other country would allow a rabble to take over its Government House, close its airports and damage its economy in such a manner?
A long overdue stance by the ELECTED Government.
Posted 2008-10-07 11:58:04
Some posters question how less-lethal weapons can do these damages we see pictures of. Easy, use them in an incorrect manner with disregard for human safety, and you can do a lot. They are all less-lethal. Non-lethal is an incorrect term regarding any weapon.
Firing a gas-round directly on a person at 20 meters of range can be very lethal, if hitting badly (for instance the skull). Shooting rubber bullets (this is also clouding the fact how the bullets actually look, they are not soft and gentle items) can also lead to severe trauma if hitting bad. Usually lethal wound needs impact on the skull or directly in relations to the heart, but any combination of factors and bad luck can render wounds that are severe or even lethal by them selfs or in combinations.
In anyway, seeing the pictures above it is clear the police fired a multitude a gas cannisters directly at people. Not lobbing them or first letting them bounce (done when protesters are too close) one by aiming sharply into the ground. This would cause a part of the damages we have seen.
Is it the lacking riot training we are seeing?
Posted 2008-10-07 12:03:18
Morch, on 2008-10-07 11:34:04, said: sriracha john, on 2008-10-07 10:42:28, said: There is quite a bit of video footage from a variety of sources of numerous people suffering severe burns or large lacerations (including the traumatic amputation of a leg posted earlier). These don't seem entirely consistent with the use of "tear-gas."
Shooting AT someone would do that and worse.
not exactly "soft" when they do that, eh?
sriracha john, on 2008-10-07 08:50:53, said: Police have used soft approach on anti-government protesters : PM
Prime Minister Somchai Wongsawat did not worry about police's using tear gas at anti-government protesters, PM Secretary General Chusak Sirinin said Tuesday.
"Prime Minister told me that police have used soft approach to handle the protesters' situation," he said.
Edited by sriracha john, 2008-10-07 12:04:05.
Posted 2008-10-07 12:05:13
Quote They'd also arrest the protestors, bundle them into buses and cart them off for processing. We saw them prepared to do this in Sydney during Apec last year.
you mean like this.....? 
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