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[fabianfred]

sabaijai, on 2009-01-30 13:21:36, said:

Nice photos. Off topic, but could you tell us more about the unusual temple depicted in this photo?

That is in a refugee camp for Shan (Tai Yai) right near the border in Wiang Haeng district of ChiangDao .....

[sabaijai]

Thanks for the info. I didn't know there was a refugee camp in Wiang Haeng, been through a couple of times and must have missed it.

[SeerObserver]

Samuian, on 2008-11-21 01:52:10, said:

a.) If self proclaimed Buddhists would really have understood the teachings of the Gautama, there wouldn't be any "Buddhists"!

Interesting statement.  Is this to say that there wouldn't be any Buddhists since everyone would have reached arahantship and lifted themselves out of the cycle of samsara by now?

Or did you mean it along the lines of the more common criticism of "religious" people that labels shouldn't be applied, judgments made, etc.?

[SeerObserver]

seonai, on 2007-07-25 09:12:56, said:

Yes they play that TV channel at all their centres in a sort of indoctrinating fashion and when they meditate en mass at the big temple near Bangkok Airport they sit in a Hitleresque way in a triangle all perfect and ordered. I used to run a Buddhist discussion group in Bkk abd nothing good was ever said about them. Several top Thai ministers are members.

Has anyone anything to say about this being a source of the temple's success as well as its criticism?  Just a couple of suggestions...

• Politicians who did wrong may have made the temple guilty by association.
  
• The temple can also be criticized as a means to discredit someone whose agenda doesn't fit yours.

[Siripon]

The temple has played host to TRT, come PPP, come Peua Thai rallies for sometime.
There's a well known investor and property speculator called Sia Song, once a defendant in a big stock manipulation case, who in the 1990s would frequently visit Wat Tammakay; he would disappear into the abbot's quarters and not reappear for some time.
For a while people wondered why and then it emerged the temple was buying large tracts of land in the central north. It seems he was offering financial advice.
The temple used to order breakfasts from a 5 star restaurant, a particular target group of theirs is single, rich or comfortably off Thai- Chinese women. They have gained a lot of money from this group.

[SeerObserver]

Since Siripon bumped the thread, I decided to give it a better look though.  Some important points were brought up, but I'm wary.  It is said by some that Sia Song learned all he knew from the abbot and then allegedly perpetrated his shady financial activities.  Siripon's example is somewhat the reverse scenario.  What's the story?  Was it one way, the other, or both (a little quid pro quo)?  

As for the fancy food, Dhammakaya's congregationers (prachachon) include people from all walks of life.  Was this restaurant a business of one of the congregationers, or was this food donated from benefactors?  Monks receiving lavish food and gifts is not exclusive to this wat.  It would be important to know more details.  I don't think it's necessarily that the temple "targets" a certain demographic, but rather the people who have found the temple to be fulfilling spread the word within their social circles.  Therefore an affluent congregationer will probably invite like people to attend.  It's not as if the wat has a mailer filtered to certain ZIP codes or something like that.

AmeriThai, on 2008-10-28 01:09:46, said:

Thank you Camerata. Like you, I'm rather partial to the traditional style of architecture of Thai wats. They are a distinct representation of Thailand that have similar features, and yet each one with their own unique variations. To me, while the modern design style of Wat Phra Dhammakaya is impressive, the design looks more suitable for a business convention center.

It doesn't look like you two are criticizing on this point, but rather just stating your preferences.  Of course this shouldn't sway anyone's opinions on a Wat too much.  Yes, it's different being in Thailand and all but in the USA many wats and other places of religious gathering occupy structures that were once schools, churches, etc.  There is even a Muslim mosque I know of that used to be a bowling alley!

  

AmeriThai, on 2008-10-28 01:09:46, said:

I hadn't noticed the Buddha image you mentioned, but after a search, I'm guessing this must be what you're talking about.


(Click to Enlarge)

AmeriThai, on 2008-10-28 01:09:46, said:

I did find a statue of the monk Luang Por Sodh, not a gold one, but life-like color statue. It's well made, but looks a bit of eerie to me.
...
Here's the image of Luang Phor Sodh I mentioned. It was  said to have been made of carbon fiber glass. It reminds me of what's  claimed to be a perfectly preserved mummified monk at a wat (next to a  klong) I saw a couple of years ago. I can't remember the name of the  wat though. It's not the one at Koh Samui.


(Click to Enlarge)

The Buddha image used has been a topic of discussion.  Some say that it was designed by the abbot to look like himself.  There's good shock value to that but after you quickly look into it you discover that there's nothing more to it than that.

As for this image of Luang Phor Sodh, it's actually at Wat Paknam (link).  Now it seems that they are on "good terms" with Wat Phra Dhammakaya.  The current abbot was actually the preceptor of LP Dhammachayo's ordination, and it seems that they currently coordinate various programs/ceremonies together.  Furthermore, if as people often claim, Dhammakaya's doctrine and meditation is not in accord with LP Sodh's teachings then one would think that they would not be in good standing with Wat Paknam for having misrepresented the teachings of their late abbot.  

  

sabaijai, on 2009-01-22 22:45:47, said:

I have seen this picture before somewhere else.  It's hard to tell if that is actually LP Dhammachayo, but it could be.  I believe this picture was posted with an article or thread post where gold was being discussed.  Does anyone know what I'm referring to, or can anyone confirm the ID in this picture and explain what's going on?

[camerata]

My Dhammakaya colleagues tell me that time is running out to get your own gold Buddha rupa placed on the flying saucer building. They need 1 million to cover it (for world peace) and there are only 300,000 spots left. Each one is made of bonded silicon with a coating of gold and has your name engraved on it. A bargain at only 15,000 baht each and guaranteed to last thousands of years. Plus the chanting of all those in the temple will be channeled to you wherever you are after death.

Incidentally, the dome at the centre of the flying saucer building is modeled after the great stupa at Sanchi, in India.

[SeerObserver]

camerata, on 2009-03-26 22:36:35, said:

Incidentally, the dome at the centre of the flying saucer building is modeled after the great stupa at Sanchi, in India.

    
I read somewhere that the design was decided on for spatial and architectural efficiency in placing that many Buddha rupas.  That would make the similar design a sheer coincidence.  Haha, all tires are not copied off of Goodyears.

Can you verify that this is really the case regarding the design that it is based off of Ashoka's stupa?

[Siripon]

They've got good salesmen at Wat Tammakaya, (pronounced Tammakai). If some lay people are present for meditation or sermons, someone may step forward to make a quite substantial donation; the 'someone' is an insider from the temple though others presume he or she is just a visitor like them. This 'donation' sets the standard for the others present to follow. Group pressure to be seen as not stingy usually works in this instance.

[SeerObserver]

Siripon, on 2009-03-27 01:11:05, said:

They've got good salesmen at Wat Tammakaya, (pronounced Tammakai). If some lay people are present for meditation or sermons, someone may step forward to make a quite substantial donation; the 'someone' is an insider from the temple though others presume he or she is just a visitor like them. This 'donation' sets the standard for the others present to follow. Group pressure to be seen as not stingy usually works in this instance.

That sounds preposterous.  At the main Wat this shouldn't work so well since it's large and more anonymous.  You may not know who that donor is and vice versa.  You don't think or care that you may look stingy to them because you think that you're just another of the thousands in attendance in their eyes.  The bar they set isn't relevant to you for that same reason.  You may never see that person again so you may not worry what their opinion is of you.  The groupthink would come into play more if someone saw their friends making large donations.  Now that I have suggested that, will you proceed to say that the Wat also has some of the attendees stage large donations so as to influence their friends within eye/earshot?

At the other branches, some of which are not very large at all, this wouldn't work either.  Most of the people know each other or at least most individuals would be known to several others in attendance.  That being the case, everyone knows who the unordained monastics are that reside at the temple and who the attendees from outside are.  Same thing comes into play.  Someone appearing to be a benefactor would have to be in on it with the Wat.  Are these donations staged to influence peers as well?

PS - In another thread, I asked why Dhammakaya practitioners don't really answer to much of what is said on forums I've seen or otherwise.  I even suggested that maybe some of the things that are said are so outlandish they don't feel the need to dignify them with response.  To be fair, I'm aware of how difficult it would be to offer something substantive at times regarding certain matters.

Edited by SeerObserver, 2009-03-27 14:08:15.

[sabaijai]

SeerObserver, on 2009-03-27 06:58:43, said:

sabaijai, on 2009-01-22 22:45:47, said:

I have seen this picture before somewhere else.  It's hard to tell if that is actually LP Dhammachayo, but it could be.  I believe this picture was posted with an article or thread post where gold was being discussed.  Does anyone know what I'm referring to, or can anyone confirm the ID in this picture and explain what's going on?

The photo came from the Bangkok Post archives, and initially appeared with a story on the abbot's arrest. The man in the photo is indeed Dhammachayo.

[sabaijai]

All domed stupas have as their prototype the great stupa at Sanchi.

[camerata]

SeerObserver, on 2009-03-27 10:55:00, said:

Can you verify that this is really the case regarding the design that it is based off of Ashoka's stupa?

That's what they claim in their glossy brochure.

[fabianfred]

sabaijai, on 2009-01-31 13:04:56, said:

Thanks for the info. I didn't know there was a refugee camp in Wiang Haeng, been through a couple of times and must have missed it.

right adjacent to the border and some distance from Wiang Haeng itself.... so only got to if you know where it is and are intending to visit...... not something to mention to the several checkpoints you pass between ChiangDao and Wiang haeng...the Thai army don't like visitors there

[SeerObserver]

SeerObserver, on 2009-03-26 21:55:00, said:

I read somewhere that the design was decided on for spatial and architectural efficiency in placing that many Buddha rupas.  That would make the similar design a sheer coincidence.  Haha, all tires are not copied off of Goodyears.

Can you verify that this is really the case regarding the design that it is based off of Ashoka's stupa?

camerata, on 2009-03-27 04:14:06, said:

That's what they claim in their glossy brochure.

sabaijai, on 2009-03-27 02:24:57, said:

All domed stupas have as their prototype the great stupa at Sanchi.
...
The photo came from the  Bangkok Post archives, and initially appeared with a story on the  abbot's arrest. The man in the photo is indeed Dhammachayo.

Thanks for the pointers, you two.

Camerata, I didn't mean for it to appear that I was ruling it out.  I'm sorry if it came across that way.  If that's the case with the design, then it's no sheer coincidence after all.  I must have missed it because most of the discussion I have seen on the design aspect of the cetiya is talking about the spaceship resemblance, and the spatial and architectural justficitations make sense.  The Sanchi prototype really brings a new light to it.

[SeerObserver]

Aside from what has already been discussed, does anyone know about doctrinal/practice differences between Dhammakaya and the rest of Theravada?  It is often said that their teachings are unorthodox.  

I know the meditation method is different from what you will find at other Wats but how much people cite the unorthodoxy makes me think there is something more, although not many people who say it really mention anything specific.  The discussion generally goes back to the controversy and news stories.

[sabaijai]

There has been a lot written, in the Thai media (including English-language publications), about Wat Dhammakaya practices. Probably the one thing that stands out most is the practice of 'selling' nibbana, reminiscent of medieval Catholic clergy selling indulgences. Dhammachayo's interpretation of nibbana, likening it to a state resembling heaven ('a permanent blissful realm where Buddha and other enlightened ones reside after death'), is also controversial. And the dhammakaya members' evangelistic zeal. According to an investigative article in the BKK Post, 'New recruits go through intensive training to learn bok boon -- the offering of merit-making opportunities to the public -- and in a similar way to salespeople, they learn to be persistent through follow-up phone calls.'

This article goes through most of the critiques.

http://www.rickross....general644.html

Further critical info:

http://www.buddhisma...a.org/cults.htm

[camerata]

From the Dhammakaya web page, "Homage to the Cetiya":

The golden light reflects the light of Absolute Truth pouring down from the most supreme place beyond highest heaven to enlighten the mind of human being.

Dhammakaya is the real self of Lord Buddha existed at the inner most of his physical body and also of the enlightened ones.

It’s the true eternity body, timeless and indestructible.

[mohinga]

I think that one 'doctrinal' difference might be their views regarding the sharing of merit. I don't speak Thai fluently, but can understand some; and when visiting the kingdom on several occasions have seen their television show. The monk seems do be doing "readings" for people, and suggesting that the merit helps their relatives in various hel_l states.
I don't have a sutta reference at hand; but I'm quite sure that the Buddha taught that merit could only be shared with beings in the peta (hungry ghost) realm. 'Shared' in the sense that the beings would receive the benefit.
Leaving aside the sideshow aspect of these "readings", it might be that the tendency of this practice favours an eternalism view. Maybe some ancestor worship influence?
As a side note regarding their method of meditaton ... it seems that it was introduced to the West in the 1950's and 1960's, but never caught on.
"Honour Thy Fathers" (http://www.buddhanet...nourfathers.pdf)
describes Ven. Kapilavaddho, founder of the English Sanga Trust,  practicing at Wat Pak Nam (description of method on page 45). His successor at the E.S.T. in the early '60's, Ven. Ananda Bodhi (later Namgyal Rinpoche) also practiced at Wat Pak Nam, and taught this method. At that time it was referred to as "16 Buddha Body Meditation". This was well before the rise of the Dhammakaya organisation; and it's perhaps regrettable that this strain did not survive free from that influence.

Edited by mohinga, 2009-03-29 08:36:22.

[SeerObserver]

sabaijai, on 2009-03-28 01:17:38, said:

There has been a lot written, in the Thai media (including English-language publications), about Wat Dhammakaya practices. Probably the one thing that stands out most is the practice of 'selling' nibbana, reminiscent of medieval Catholic clergy selling indulgences. Dhammachayo's interpretation of nibbana, likening it to a state resembling heaven ('a permanent blissful realm where Buddha and other enlightened ones reside after death'), is also controversial. And the dhammakaya members' evangelistic zeal. According to an investigative article in the BKK Post, 'New recruits go through intensive training to learn bok boon -- the offering of merit-making opportunities to the public -- and in a similar way to salespeople, they learn to be persistent through follow-up phone calls.'

This article goes through most of the critiques.

http://www.rickross....general644.html

Further critical info:

http://www.buddhisma...a.org/cults.htm

I have seen both of those before.  They seem to be among the most common criticisms of the movement.

The first one is by Sanitsuda Ekachai.  A caveat regarding her is that she seems to have a disdain towards the sangha in general, not just Dhammakaya.  She has written much criticism out of what seems to be mere spite.  It seems spiteful because she is constantly fault-finding, but you don't see her offer any solutions or even mere suggestions of reforms (other than saying that reform is needed).  So her articles are really just constant fault-finding and cannot be considered constructive criticism at this time.  What she says is often true, but she should really make some suggestions as to how the situations addressed can be remedied.  

The second article makes all the usual criticisms you will find of any large religious congregation.  If you were to look into criticism on Lakewood Church and The Potter House, you would find the same things being said.  Both are large Christian congregations in the USA with roughly 20,000 (or more) attendees every Sunday and countless more by television, internet stream, etc.  You will find all the criticisms of proselytizing, grandeur, scriptural inconsistencies, etc.  One thing of note is that this site claims that Dhammakaya says its abbot is a reincarnation of the Buddha.  I have not found and literature from the movement stating such.  The abbot often refers to the Buddha in the third person in his writing as well as his speech.  Never have I heard of him saying, "in my past life as Buddha" or anything to that effect.  I'm looking for stuff like that and coming up with nothing.  It seems it's just one of many outlandish claims that nobody from Dhammakaya itself seems to feel the need to refute.  The supplement written by Mano Laohavanich (formerly Mettanando Bhikkhu of Wat Phra Dhammakaya, and now a politician and Chart Thai party member) brings up a key point.  Much of the hostility towards the movement seems to stem from political causal factors.  Khun Thaksin is a former affiliate, and numerous high-profile politicians, business people, etc. are to this day.  Food for thought (link).

The alms-giving with the abbot as a medium is an interesting issue.  It could be an interpretive issue?  It may even be a symbolic ceremony, which would not exactly be foreign to popular Buddhism.  Even if not, I have not really seen other monks criticized to this scale for medium practice, fortune telling, lottery seeing, etc.

Edited by SeerObserver, 2009-03-29 11:23:56.

[SeerObserver]

camerata, on 2009-03-28 04:58:12, said:

From the Dhammakaya web page, "Homage to the Cetiya":

The golden light reflects the light of Absolute Truth pouring down from the most supreme place beyond highest heaven to enlighten the mind of human being.

Dhammakaya is the real self of Lord Buddha existed at the inner most of his physical body and also of the enlightened ones.

It's the true eternity body, timeless and indestructible.

mohinga, on 2009-03-28 19:35:26, said:

I  think that one 'doctrinal' difference might be their views regarding  the sharing of merit. I don't speak Thai fluently, but can understand  some; and when visiting the kingdom on several occasions have seen  their television show. The monk seems do be doing "readings" for  people, and suggesting that the merit helps their relatives in various  hel_l states.
I don't have a sutta reference at hand; but I'm quite  sure that the Buddha taught that merit could only be shared with beings  in the peta (hungry ghost) realm. 'Shared' in the sense that the beings  would receive the benefit.
Leaving aside the sideshow aspect of  these "readings", it might be that the tendency of this practice  favours an eternalism view. Maybe some ancestor worship influence?
As  a side note regarding their method of meditaton ... it seems that it  was introduced to the West in the 1950's and 1960's, but never caught  on.
"Honour Thy Fathers" (http://www.buddhanet...nourfathers.pdf)
describes  Ven. Kapilavaddho, founder of the English Sanga Trust, practicing at  Wat Pak Nam (description of method on page 45). His successor at the  E.S.T. in the early '60's, Ven. Ananda Bodhi (later Namgyal Rinpoche)  also practiced at Wat Pak Nam, and taught this method. At that time it  was referred to as "16 Buddha Body Meditation". This was well before  the rise of the Dhammakaya organisation; and it's perhaps regrettable  that this strain did not survive free from that influence.

What Camerata says may sound somewhat off in some contexts, but not in legitimate Buddhism as a whole.  The concept of Buddha nature within all humans is a core Mahayana view.  So it seems that this may raise a few eyebrows in a Theravadin country, but that's really the "worst" you can say about it.  

Regarding mohinga's post, the practice of sharing merit with deceased relatives is like he says, not unique to Dhammakaya.  So this eternalism view is then not a criticism that can be attached merely to them.  This (link) is a good read on the subject.

Quote

Of course, not all the deceased will be in a position to share                     our merits. Only those who are born in an unfortunate state                     of existence called "spirits who subsist on the offerings                     of others" can share our merits.

This could be a matter of scriptural interpretation.  Their understanding of this is not limited to pretas.  Even so, it's not different to the point of heresy that people make Dhammakaya out to be.    

Interesting document you found.  I went to page 45 of the document and after scrolling down just a little bit it said, "see warning".  When I clicked on that it took me to another page, but I didn't see anything of concern there.

[fabianfred]

Luang Por Jaran of Wat Amphawan, Singhburi is well known for his writings about the working of the law of karma....and he states that normal merit making such as chanting, alms food, offering robes to the monks etc. can help those in the hungry ghost realm, but not those beings in the hel_l realms. Only very strong forms of merit such as being ordained as a monk or the practise of Vipassana can help alleviate the suffering of hel_l beings.

[SeerObserver]

fabianfred, on 2009-03-29 21:35:49, said:

Luang Por Jaran of Wat Amphawan, Singhburi is well known for his writings about the working of the law of karma....and he states that normal merit making such as chanting, alms food, offering robes to the monks etc. can help those in the hungry ghost realm, but not those beings in the hel_l realms. Only very strong forms of merit such as being ordained as a monk or the practise of Vipassana can help alleviate the suffering of hel_l beings.

Thanks for this input.  This is the more pertinent stuff to discuss (doctrinal and practice matters).  The other stuff that comes out in these discussions may be good to be mindful of as well, but you have to take it with a grain of salt.  It's pretty outrageous sounding and also dam_n near impossible to verify.

So now does anyone know if Dhammakaya says that hel_l beings are easily and readily helped, or do they also say that it takes strong merits?  I would think the latter.

[mohinga]

SeerObserver, on 2009-03-31 09:02:30, said:

fabianfred, on 2009-03-29 21:35:49, said:

Luang Por Jaran of Wat Amphawan, Singhburi is well known for his writings about the working of the law of karma....and he states that normal merit making such as chanting, alms food, offering robes to the monks etc. can help those in the hungry ghost realm, but not those beings in the hel_l realms. Only very strong forms of merit such as being ordained as a monk or the practise of Vipassana can help alleviate the suffering of hel_l beings.

Thanks for this input.  This is the more pertinent stuff to discuss (doctrinal and practice matters).  The other stuff that comes out in these discussions may be good to be mindful of as well, but you have to take it with a grain of salt.  It's pretty outrageous sounding and also dam_n near impossible to verify.

So now does anyone know if Dhammakaya says that hel_l beings are easily and readily helped, or do they also say that it takes strong merits?  I would think the latter.

The fact that someone is "well known for his writings about the workings of the law of karma..." should not be a criterion for acceptance of his view.
The only scriptural reference that I am aware of is in the Milinda Panha of the Khuddaka Nikaya (Mil. 294 )
(http://www.sacred-te...6/sbe3606.htm  )

[DILEMMA THE SEVENTY-FOURTH.
OFFERINGS TO THE DEAD.]

29. 'Venerable Nâgasena, these givers when they bestow their offerings, devote them specifically to former (relatives) now departed , saying: "May this gift benefit such and such." Now do they (the dead) derive any benefit therefrom?'

'Some do, O king, and some do not.'
'Which then are they that do, and which do not?'
'Those who have been reborn in purgatory, O king, do not; nor those reborn in heaven; nor those reborn as animals. And of those reborn as Pretas three kinds do not-the Vantâsikâ (who feed on vomit), the Khuppipâsino (who hunger and thirst.), the Nigghâma-tanhikâ (who are consumed by thirst). But the Paradattûpagîvino (who live on the gifts of others) they do derive profit, and those who bear them in remembrance do so too.'

'Then, Nâgasena, offerings given by the givers have run to waste <a name="fr_384">, and are fruitless, since those
for whose benefit they are given derive no profit therefrom.'
'No, O king. They run not to waste, neither are fruitless. The givers themselves derive profit from them.'



"Purgatory" was the term often used for "hel_l" by some Victorian translators. So, according to this, neither beings in hel_l-realms, nor animals, nor even some kinds of petas can receive merit... only 'those who live on the gifts of others'.
A view on how this works is that these beings see their relatives generating wholesome mental kamma while making the offerings, the petas themselves are then inspired to generate wholesome mental kamma... which in turn works to their benefit.
This would seem in line with the Buddha's teaching that we are all heirs to our own kamma... no one can save us.
It would be easy to speculate on why some teachers might cater to cultural wishes for this to be otherwise. But unless someone can come up with a scriptural reference to the contrary, I would be inclined to doubt those views. Especilally if they arise from those teachers' own psychic experiences. And even more so if money is involved.

Edited by mohinga, 2009-03-31 11:29:41.

[SeerObserver]

Mohinga, I went to look at page 45 of the document you linked for us and a little ways down it says "see warning".  I clicked on that but saw nothing of concern.  Do you (or anyone else who checks) know what that is in reference to?