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[sabaijai]

Thailand to negotiate with protesters
By Associated Press Published on 11/28/2008

Bangkok, Thailand - Thailand's government backed off today from its threat to forcibly remove protesters occupying Bangkok's two airports in their campaign to oust the prime minister, saying police would avoid violence and attempt to negotiate.

Thousands of tourists have been left stranded since anti-government protesters occupied the main international Suvarnabhumi airport on Tuesday and the smaller Don Muang airport on Wednesday. Both airports are now shut down and the capital completely cut off to air traffic.

On Thursday, Prime Minister Somchai Wongsawat declared a state of emergency at the airports, authorizing police to take back the terminals. The order appeared to indicate that a crackdown was imminent against the members of the People's Alliance for Democracy.

But eight hours later, Government spokesman Nattawut Sai-Kau told The Associated Press that police have been instructed to get the protesters out of airports “as soon as possible” in a “peaceful manner.”

”Firstly, the police should open negotiation with the protesters. If they refuse to go, police should do whatever is necessary to open the airports on the basis of nonviolence,” he said.

The new soft line, and the government's failure to send in security forces so far, has raised doubts about whether Somchai has the support of security forces and the army, a powerful institution that has traditionally played a key role in the country's politics.

Army commander Gen. Anupong Paochinda has so far been neutral in the political turmoil, and even suggested that Somchai call new elections, triggering speculation that a military coup could take place. The whispers were further fueled by press reports Thursday of tank movements that the military later said were only a training exercise.

In an address to the nation Thursday night to announce the emergency, Somchai said that navy and air force personnel would help the police, but was vague about any participation by the army, saying only the government would also ask the army “to help take care of the people.”

The state of emergency also empowers the government to suspend some civil liberties, including restricting the movement of people and prohibiting mass assembly.

Emergency was declared once before in the three months since the protesters seized the prime minister's office, but there was no move to take advantage of its provisions, apparently because the army was reluctant to take on the alliance, which at the time enjoyed greater popularity.

The protesters remained defiant today.

”We are ready to defend ourselves against any government's operations to get us out of those places,” Parnthep Wongpuapan, a spokesman of the People's Alliance for Democracy, told the AP.

”We are going to stay at the airports until Somchai resigns,” he said.

Protesters at the international airport donned goggles and helmets, and first aid stations handed out surgical masks in anticipation of a police raid. The group's “guards” were patrolling the area with slingshots and metal batons. Many also carry concealed handguns.

Speakers from a makeshift stage repeatedly yelled: “Are you scared?” The crowd roared back: “We're not scared!”

They alliance's protest grew out of its hatred of former Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra, a brother-in-law of Somchai. Thaksin was ousted in a bloodless military coup in September 2006 after months of protests by the alliance.

It accused Thaksin and his allies of corruption and abuse of power. Thaksin is in exile, a fugitive from a conviction for violating a conflict of interest law. The group says Somchai is merely a Thaksin puppet and should go.

However, Somchai has stood his ground, saying his departure would be a blow to democracy.

In his televised address Thursday from the northern city of Chiang Mai, Somchai accused the alliance of “holding the country hostage and the public hostage.” Somchai has been in the pro-government stronghold since he returned from a summit in Peru on Wednesday.

The protests, which gathered pace three months ago when demonstrators overran the prime minister's offices, have paralyzed the government, battered the stock market, spooked foreign investors and dealt a serious blow to the tourism industry.

”If the government uses an emergency decree and decides to crack down on protesters, the army may decide to intervene to prevent that,” said Panithan Wattanayagorn, a political science professor at Bangkok's Chulalongkorn University.

Until now, Somchai has not tried to forcibly oust protesters from his office compound and urged police to exercise restraint during the group's forays outside the walls. Still, at least six people have been killed thus far in political violence.

[crudy21]

What an awfully sad situation this has become, can anyone see and end to it?

[neil324]

crudy21, on 2008-11-28 21:43:13, said:

What an awfully sad situation this has become, can anyone see and end to it?

Who cares, got themselves to blame.By that i mean everyone not just PAD.

[sabaijai]

There are several possible ends to the current conflict, each of which has been discussed, dissected and rejected here ad nauseum The Thais will come up with a solution -- if only temporary. Some say the only longterm solution is something along the lines of what the PAD are proposing, ie, half the national assembly appointed and half elected, like the UK had until relatively recently. Many Thais support the idea while most Western democracy advocates do not.

[LaoPo]

sabaijai, on 2008-11-28 22:38:00, said:

Thailand to negotiate with protesters
By Associated Press Published on 11/28/2008

Bangkok, Thailand - Thailand's government backed off today from its threat to forcibly remove protesters occupying Bangkok's two airports in their campaign to oust the prime minister, saying police would avoid violence and attempt to negotiate.

The article is a kind of copy from another one which appeared in Time World on Nov. 27th, (partners with CNN):


Thailand to Negotiate With Airport Protesters
By AP / AMBIKA AHUJA and CHRIS BLAKE Thursday, Nov. 27, 2008

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8...1862689,00.html

I suppose one journalist writes the article and it's published with linked news agencies around the world; all AP though or related.

LaoPo

[plachon]

sabaijai, on 2008-11-28 21:46:56, said:

There are several possible ends to the current conflict, each of which has been discussed, dissected and rejected here ad nauseum The Thais will come up with a solution -- if only temporary. Some say the only longterm solution is something along the lines of what the PAD are proposing, ie, half the national assembly appointed and half elected, like the UK had until relatively recently. Many Thais support the idea while most Western democracy advocates do not.

I hope you're right Sabaijai, but the weakness in your argument is that "The Thais" are now no longer one (if they ever were?), and numerous chances to "come up with a solution" have been squandered over the last few months to sort the gathering storm out amicably. As long as Mr T is lording it over his elites and another set of elites are protecting their interests, while the middle classes and politically engaged poor are not pleased with the uneasy status quo that existed up until August and the taking of Govt House, then finding a mutually acceptable "middle way" is going to be a darn hard act to muster.

The only thing that is clear is that past "democracy" versions have only been pale imitations of the real thing and that the No. 1 priority is the establishment of an independent judiciary, as the primary building block. I've noticed that there are more "People's Politics" advocates in Thailand than many other countries and just wonder how many of them are still supporting the PAD. That Ji Ungpakhorn has become so virulently anti-PAD, while somebody like Prawase Wasi is a firm supporter shows how split the nation is these days. I can imagine that a lot of old allies are so factionalised these days, that they might even have problems talking to each other in the future. This is a big concern for anyone who truly cares about Thailand's future.

[Martin]

In any industrial action, such as a strike against an employer, or protest against a legitimate power, such as an elected government, Rule 1 is "Maintain the sympathy of the public".

PAD has taken the risk of losing that by cutting off Bangkok from air travel.

We may well come to look back on this week as the one where PAD started its self-destruction.

[siam4ever]

It is completely absurd to refer to the PAD as "protesters"; please, they are terrorists!

[hangusthemonkey]

siam4ever, on 2008-11-29 06:11:13, said:

It is completely absurd to refer to the PAD as "protesters"; please, they are terrorists!

You see your comments show exactly how difficult it will be to find a middle way in this situation , Many people view the PAD as protesters as that is what they are doing "terrorists" use terror to achieve their aims i do niot think we have seen that tactic yet except in the South where Muslim separtists have used terror to achieve their means.

When you see the odd snipet of violence on your TV out of a large group of protesters it does not mean that they are all therefore terrorists . Ghandi and many after him have used sit down and occupy tactics before and history certainly does not mark them as terrorists .

I am all for healthy debate and constructive dialogue but sometimes these commenst show a lack of true understanding of the situation. I presume ( HOPEFULLY CORRECTLY) that you are an educated individual as you can type and use a computer but your comments highlight that even education can be no guarantee of keeping emotions out of debate

[solent01]

Do we have to start in with labelling PAD as terrorists in yet another thred, they are nothing of the sort.

[thaiwanderer]

Farangs can (and do!) pontificate endlessly about things that would make thailand 'better'.

The current 'crisis' just gives another opportunity (although often no incident is needed for the bar stool Platos).

Whilst often it is phrased in such a way that they are thinking of the best interests of thais etc. really it is a far too simplistic approach (change this, don't change this) and essentially a self interested one at that.

Thailand has the right to shoot itself in the foot domestically and internationally as much as it wants (intentionally or as a by product of any kind of struggle).

Democracy (if there can be a single ideology on that front) is in its infancy here.

Vested interests on all sides fear it as it gets in the way of getting 'you and yours' noses in the trough.

Before a Farang sounds off on what they think is best for Thailand they should perhaps declare-
I do not wish to visit / live in a Thailand where (as currently)......
I cannot buy goods and services at their current levels
I cannot freely purchase sex
I cannot buy property at the current price levels
I cannot pay off the police when i get into trouble
I cannot set up a bogus company in order to circumvent the work permit restrictions
etc. etc. etc. ad infinitum

Then their opinions might mean something and the fervour with which they post here might be matched with that with which they post on other forums regarding the Mumbai bombings etc.


PAD are merely Phu yais Against Democracy (look into the leader/funder's background and reasons why he changed his view as to why Mr T was the best leader Thailand ever had).

Mr T was / is a scumbag, PPP is unashamedly his proxy.

Votes are bought / demo action is bought.

There is no quick fix.

But at least if we are to talk about whats best for thailand try and separate whats best for you out of it first.

[Journalist]

sabaijai, on 2008-11-29 05:46:56, said:

half the national assembly appointed and half elected, like the UK had until relatively recently. Many Thais support the idea while most Western democracy advocates do not.

In the UK model, the appointed Upper House can delay, but not overturn legislation from the elected lower house.

It still exists. What has changed is that hereditary members are no longer allowed in the Upper 'House of Lords'.

[BEENTHEREDONETHAT]

Thailand is very fortunate that Mumbai has had it's more serious problem and pretty much kept Thailand out of the news. So much of the world has not noticed the mess.

[rbrick49]

my opinion is we who are not thai should mind our own buisness and let the thai people sort there problems out we have no right to interfere in their politics wether we se it as good or bad and if you are unsure of what might happen get out of the country just myopinion

[solent01]

r49, I think thats a fair opinion, however we are free to discuss and argue the facts amongst ourselves right?

Edited by solent01, 2008-11-29 07:13:04.

[angiud]

siam4ever, on 2008-11-29 06:11:13, said:

It is completely absurd to refer to the PAD as "protesters"; please, they are terrorists!

[tomster]

thaiwanderer, on 2008-11-28 23:38:30, said:

Thailand has the right to shoot itself in the foot domestically and internationally as much as it wants (intentionally or as a by product of any kind of struggle).

That pretty much sums it up.

Thailand is refreshing different to the society I was raised in, and this is why I love it so much. Thai politics are completly different to western politics - neither really make sense to me and if i'm totally honest, who's to say which one is "right", and which one is "wrong"...?

Put the concept of "superior western politics" to an Iraqi mother whose children have been blown to bits by a colalition bomb - see what she thinks about the whole concept...

Let this unfold as it will, as usual things will settle down when the time is right.

Tomster.

[Pierrot]

rbrick49, on 2008-11-29 08:00:03, said:

my opinion is we who are not thai should mind our own buisness and let the thai people sort there problems out we have no right to interfere in their politics wether we se it as good or bad and if you are unsure of what might happen get out of the country just myopinion

This forum is about Thailand, if we don't talk about Thailand, what are we going to talk about, knowing that subjects that are not Thailand related are proscribed.

Read Thai forums like Pantip, Thai people are not shy talking about their experience abroad and what they think about foreigners.

Furthermore, a number of us are not just tourists but have big emotional and financial investments in Thailand that will be directly affected by the current events. It's definitively within our rights to discuss what's going on in the Kingdom.

[PeaceBlondie]

Good morning, y'all. Another day, another Thailand without BKK airports. I am not sorry that the Rambos have been denied their 15 minutes of fame. But where is a real Thai peacemaker?

[Xangsamhua]

Whatever the outcome and the rights or wrongs, two things seem clear to me:

1. No Thai government can rule effectively if it lacks support in Bangkok, either among the "elites" (however defined) or the broader civilian, military and commercial leadership class.

2. Thailand is suffering the karma of its Bangkok and Central Thai ethnocentric injustice towards the Lao-speaking Isaan people over many, many years. This has improved over the past 30 years or so, but until recently (and still to some extent) Isaan people have been the butt of contempt and neglect. Some of this has been at the hands of their local grandees, who've benefitted by their Bangkok and government-based networks, but generally the Bangkok Thais have not seen their Isaan compatriots as equals. Now they're reaping the harvest of bitterness and mistrust.

Any future government has to have both Bangkok and the Northeast on side.

[BEENTHEREDONETHAT]

Thailand appears to be like a ship with no captain. The officers and crew only accept the orders they agree with. The captain is hiding in his cabin and the officers were all left in port when the ship departed. Hope there are no reefs or iceburgs nearby to run into. No one will see them coming.

[nomimusic]

[quote name='thaiwanderer' date='2008-11-28 18:38:30' post='2364894']
Farangs can (and do!) pontificate endlessly about things that would make thailand 'better'.

The current 'crisis' just gives another opportunity (although often no incident is needed for the bar stool Platos).

Whilst often it is phrased in such a way that they are thinking of the best interests of thais etc. really it is a far too simplistic approach (change this, don't change this) and essentially a self interested one at that.

Thailand has the right to shoot itself in the foot domestically and internationally as much as it wants (intentionally or as a by product of any kind of struggle).

Democracy (if there can be a single ideology on that front) is in its infancy here.

Vested interests on all sides fear it as it gets in the way of getting 'you and yours' noses in the trough.

============================
In problems (personal, political, international) we often like to place people in their neat collective groups. I feel there may be something in what you are saying, but I also take offense in being grouped into your stereotype of Farang. There are so many simplistic collective grouping already being done with all sides of this conflict politically. I do agree that the Thai may need to shoot themselves in the foot and make mistakes before they can come together. They are in their infancy democratically.

The difference that I see is that in most western countries this would have been squelched by force, and many people would have died. This still may happen. I hope not. I think the Thai people come from roots that are based in the thoughtful idea of Buddha, and the middle way. I am not Buddhist, but am very respectful of the nonviolent, meditative calmness of this ancient way. It is something that can not help but permeate in the way the Thais conduct every aspect of their lives, and the way they deal with problems may be different than anyone from the outside can possibly understand. Suffering is a part of life, and so many Thai's have suffered greatly. But who am I to say they should solve their problems the way other countries have done it in the past. Not me. I see blame on all sides, but what is important is how it is solved. And that is up to the Thai's. It is up to them to choose to rip the country apart, or see this as an opportunity to be an example for the world and make it stronger.

[Thailand]

What a wonderful for chance for PAD and their leaders to march out of the Airports and gov offices in their yellow shirts with their brave leaders at the forefront with all the world watching.

Not really what their leaders seem to want though, prefer to have the yellow stained with red to make their point.

Sad Thailand- sad!

[tomster]

nomimusic, on 2008-11-29 00:33:30, said:

The difference that I see is that in most western countries this would have been squelched by force, and many people would have died.

To be honest with you, I can't really see a bloodbath happening at Heathrow if a load of conservative supporters tried to "take" the airport...

That's not to say it wouldn't happen, it's just a bit unlikely.

Tomster.

[LaoPo]

LaoPo, on 2008-11-28 23:56:11, said:

sabaijai, on 2008-11-28 22:38:00, said:

Thailand to negotiate with protesters
By Associated Press Published on 11/28/2008

Bangkok, Thailand - Thailand's government backed off today from its threat to forcibly remove protesters occupying Bangkok's two airports in their campaign to oust the prime minister, saying police would avoid violence and attempt to negotiate.

The article is a kind of copy from another one which appeared in Time World on Nov. 27th, (partners with CNN):


Thailand to Negotiate With Airport Protesters
By AP / AMBIKA AHUJA and CHRIS BLAKE Thursday, Nov. 27, 2008

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8...1862689,00.html

I suppose one journalist writes the article and it's published with linked news agencies around the world; all AP though or related.

LaoPo

What I'm missing in the OP article, posted by Sabaijai, is the part in the end in the TIME article, (see link above):

"The Bangkok Post quoted experts as saying that the damage from the airport shutdown could range between 134 billion baht and 215 billion baht ($3.7 billion and $6 billion) if the standoff extends to December. The meeting and convention business has already suffered losses of 11 billion baht ($310 million), it said."

I'm a bit surprised that the supposedly PAD supporting Elite (and even higher up), next to the middle class (without as much power as the Elite), are still not calling upon withdrawing Sondhi's PAD ''protesters'' in order to re-open the airports...This is not the decision of Sondhi cs alone anymore. It's way more complex than that.

It is quite obvious that this whole PAD movement has support from high up, but at the same time the damage is growing into monstrous proportions and this must be hitting the Elite and middle calsses very seriously also.

If one only realizes that the TOTAL income from tourism in Thailand (by 14.4 million tourists) is $ 15,6 Billion, the above mentioned losses of between $ 3,7 and $ 6 Billion are becoming so enormous that most businesses (read: the Elite) will call upon a total withdraw of the PAD very soon.

LaoPo