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[Travelmate]

it been mentioned somewhere you only need 30 BHP to do 160km/h. So perhaps the extra 3 bhp the Ninja has, 170 clicks is not a problem.

[Anthony17]

200km/h with a re-gearing and and full exhaust is fantastic, I didn't think that it was able to do that. What kind of re-gearing, it is 15th front sprocket?

[BigBikeBKK]

Here are the figures for the US carburated Ninja 250R from www.cycleworld.com:

Price $3499
Dry weight 352 lb.
Wheelbase 54.9 in.
Seat height 31.0 in.
Fuel mileage 60 mpg (this is US mpg - means 25.5km per litre!)
0-60 mph 7.6 sec.
1/4-mile 15.54 sec. @ 82.70 mph
Horsepower 27.2 hp @ 10,770 rpm (diff power figs will be there for Europe and Thai models)
Torque 14.3 ft.-lb. @ 9650 rpm
Top speed 96 mph (or 154km/h)

The Thai FI Ninja 250R cranks out 33HP. IMHO if top speed is what you're looking for, a Ninja 250cc motorcycle is not the bike to take to the drag strip

[Anthony17]

I'm not looking for topspeed I was just surprised that a ninja could take 200km/h. What did I do to you to be so nasty with       

I know something I ask stupid questions!!!!

[dave_boo]

Anthony17, on 2009-01-02 18:49:02, said:

I'm not looking for topspeed I was just surprised that a ninja could take 200km/h. What did I do to you to be so nasty with     

I know something I ask stupid questions!!!!

You answered yourself.  There's quite a few people on this forum who are more than willing to help those without the knowledge but still don't suffer fools gladly.

And a stock Ninja will NOT hit 200.  I'd imagine it would take quite a bit of work to reach a REAL 200, especially since you'd have to hit 220 indicated on your speedo due to the inherent inaccuracy.

Quote

I've cruised BKK-CNX-BKK on the little Ninja a couple of times now and with the throttle wide open the Ninjette scoots along at a respectable 170km/hr indicated. I understand the speedo is not terribly accurate however. With an aftermarket pipe and re-gearing I've read that the Ninja 250R can do 200km/hr or more.

So, assuming the 10% optimistic speedo, you were actually doing 153.  9 KPH more than my recorded run.  And as discussed earlier you weighed down with all your gear are still lighter than me buck nekkid (please don't let nakedair read this; don't need anybody else fanatsisng about my toned lily white postier), it's not terribly surprising.

Quote

The Thai FI Ninja 250R cranks out 33HP. IMHO if top speed is what you're looking for, a Ninja 250cc motorcycle is not the bike to take to the drag strip

Is that the same hp rating as the EU version?  If it's the same, why all the hostility about using a EU Power Commander.  If it's not the same, can you provide a link that states that Kawasaki is using two different ECUs, one for Thailand and one for the rest of the world?  Because it's not making sense to me that such a scenario would happen.

[BigBikeBKK]

dave_boo, on 2009-01-03 04:22:20, said:

Is that the same hp rating as the EU version?  If it's the same, why all the hostility about using a EU Power Commander.  If it's not the same, can you provide a link that states that Kawasaki is using two different ECUs, one for Thailand and one for the rest of the world?  Because it's not making sense to me that such a scenario would happen.

Hiya Dave!

Happy New Year!!!

I don't know anything about the Euro Ninja 250R except that it's sold "restricted" because there's a HP limit on bikes sold in Europe. Bard knows more details as he's actually spoken with the company (DynoJet) that makes the Power Commander. He posted on the old Ninja 250R thread that according to DynoJet the ECUs differ on the Thai and EURO Ninjas and DynoJet is going to work with Bard to develop a PowerCommander specifically for the unrestricted Thai Ninja 250R.

From the DynoJet site for the Ninja 250R:

                                     2008 Kawasaki EX250 (European Only)
                                

                                     Manufacturer:                                      Kawasaki                                    

                                                                                                       Model:                                     EX250 (European Only)                                                                                                                                            Year:                                     2008                                                                          

Link: http://www.powercomm...d...227&yr=2008

Happy Trails!

[dave_boo]

BigBikeBKK, on 2009-01-03 02:06:29, said:

dave_boo, on 2009-01-03 04:22:20, said:

Is that the same hp rating as the EU version? If it's the same, why all the hostility about using a EU Power Commander. If it's not the same, can you provide a link that states that Kawasaki is using two different ECUs, one for Thailand and one for the rest of the world? Because it's not making sense to me that such a scenario would happen.

Hiya Dave!

Happy New Year!!!

I don't know anything about the Euro Ninja 250R except that it's sold "restricted" because there's a HP limit on bikes sold in Europe. Bard knows more details as he's actually spoken with the company (DynoJet) that makes the Power Commander. He posted on the old Ninja 250R thread that according to DynoJet the ECUs differ on the Thai and EURO Ninjas and DynoJet is going to work with Bard to develop a PowerCommander specifically for the unrestricted Thai Ninja 250R.

From the DynoJet site for the Ninja 250R:

2008 Kawasaki EX250 (European Only)

Manufacturer: Kawasaki

Model: EX250 (European Only) Year: 2008

Link: http://www.powercomm...d...227&yr=2008

Happy Trails!

First, in the UK (which I believe has the same regulations as the EU) the 'learner' rider is limited to 25 kw (33 HP) machines.  That's the same as the rating being thrown around in this thread.  So once again, where is this thought that the Thai version has a radically different rating?  Is the Thai version lacking a catalytic convertor or is there a freer flowing exhaust system?  Are the injectors larger?  Is the intake tract different?  Does it have a higher compression ratio?  Just why would the ECU be different?  I found this link also; it list the UK version as being 24 kw.

As far as DynoJet putting "European Only"; I can only surmise that since 49% of the population is even stupider than the average American (and according to whois, DynoJet is based in the States), they put that there so little click bunnies didn't order one for a States version and then get all pissy that it was not needed for their bikes.....

Edited by dave_boo, 2009-01-03 07:36:59.

[LivinLOS]

BigBikeBKK, on 2009-01-02 17:10:42, said:

dave_boo, on 2009-01-02 14:54:18, said:

expatgaz, on 2009-01-02 08:49:58, said:

90 MPH sounds slow for a 250 ???
EPG.

That's an actual 90 MPH.  Indicated was ~99.  And as I pointed out, there was still a little bit of breathing room; I ran out of space to keep going faster.  And if you were to look over other 250s that's about what's in line with a stocker.  

However, at 75 or 90 or 100 there's not going to be much difference if someone hits you!

I've cruised BKK-CNX-BKK on the little Ninja a couple of times now and with the throttle wide open the Ninjette scoots along at a respectable 170km/hr indicated. I understand the speedo is not terribly accurate however. With an aftermarket pipe and re-gearing I've read that the Ninja 250R can do 200km/hr or more.

Yeah when we were on that day.. We pulled indicated speeds in the 160 - 180 range.. My GPS had a top speed logged at IIRC 164kph.. So something around there..

Tho I have to say adding 40 kph to that would be quite a jump wouldnt it ?? I dont know how hard it pulls top, or where the revs are at that speed.. But your kind of looking at 25% increase there, sounds optimistic to me but maybe the pipe is really holding it back ??

[jackcorbett]

All I gots to say about this is in the 1970s I had a Honda 450 twin that was rated at 45 horsepower and it was good for about 100 miles an hour and that's about it.  But it accelerated pretty hard until it got to 90 or so. Later I got a BWW R-65 horizonal twin and it was rated at 50 horsepower.  I'd say about 105 miles an hour would catch it.  So what's the Euro version of the Ninja rated at---33 horsepower?   American version at 27?   Ah.....let's see........my BMW twin weighed only 408 pounds.

[Anthony17]

I'd really like to see the difference between EU and Thai version because my bike is done for 33HP and It has the same performance as yours, arround 175km/h on the indicator speedo.

I think the say EU powercommander to not the american buy this article (yes some are stupid)

[neverdie]

Thats interesting top speed information on a stock bike?

Maybe I can give you a touch up with my raider afterall

[Anthony17]

yes full stock version 175km/h

[dave_boo]

LivinLOS, on 2009-01-03 05:18:51, said:

BigBikeBKK, on 2009-01-02 17:10:42, said:

I've cruised BKK-CNX-BKK on the little Ninja a couple of times now and with the throttle wide open the Ninjette scoots along at a respectable 170km/hr indicated.

Yeah when we were on that day.. We pulled indicated speeds in the 160 - 180 range.. My GPS had a top speed logged at IIRC 164kph.. So something around there..

Tho I have to say adding 40 kph to that would be quite a jump wouldnt it ?? I dont know how hard it pulls top, or where the revs are at that speed.. But your kind of looking at 25% increase there, sounds optimistic to me but maybe the pipe is really holding it back ??

Ummmh, I suppose the Ninja would be at the upper range of it's RPM sweep when BBB was hitting 170 kph.  I also doubt that a 25% increase would be possible....but than again my Ninja didn't have any great problem pulling up from ~140-160 indicated.

Quote

All I gots to say about this is in the 1970s I had a Honda 450 twin that was rated at 45 horsepower and it was good for about 100 miles an hour and that's about it. But it accelerated pretty hard until it got to 90 or so. Later I got a BWW R-65 horizonal twin and it was rated at 50 horsepower. I'd say about 105 miles an hour would catch it. So what's the Euro version of the Ninja rated at---33 horsepower? American version at 27? Ah.....let's see........my BMW twin weighed only 408 pounds.

Thanks for giving real life examples.  Your BMW was running with 3.71 kg/HP.  The Ninja 250 runs with 5.10 kg/HP.  I'm not seeing it hit the postulated 200 kph (125 MPH) without serious work.

Quote

Thats interesting top speed information on a stock bike?

Maybe I can give you a touch up with my raider afterall

I'm sure that someone could give you the oppotunity to put up or shut up.

[BigBikeBKK]

So, the stock FI Ninja 250R puts out 33HP and can cruise at somewhere between ~150-170km/hr actual. Aftermarket pipe will add 4-6 more HP and cut weight. Re-gearing can also add to top end, but I have no idea how much. Any of you number guys (DAVE or LivinLOS ) able to calculate what an extra 4-6HP and re-gearing would add to the top end? Like I said earlier, I read that someone had clocked 200km/hr with these mods, but now I can't find the thread where I read it... I thought it was on the 2fiddy.com forum... (Personally I'm happy with the top speed I get now- on a bike that light and on Thai roads I generally would not feel comfortable going much faster.)
Happy Trails!

[LivinLOS]

Theres no way I could 'calc' it.. But remember increasing power doesnt simply increase speed in the same proportion.. Ever increasing wind resistance will act logarithmically on speed.

Adding approx 13 - 19% more bhp (4 - 6hp) would be highly unlikely to gain a 25% top speed increase is all I am guessing.. I wouldnt be surprised to hear it was possible on a Ninjette but reckon it would be a more total workover (cams. gas flowed head, compression, FI remap, injector tweaks, plus the exhaust).. An interesting exercise and no doubt fun but ultimately probably not economic on a 250 v moving up.

[dave_boo]

BigBikeBKK, on 2009-01-04 01:49:36, said:

So, the stock FI Ninja 250R puts out 33HP and can cruise at somewhere between ~150-170km/hr actual. Aftermarket pipe will add 4-6 more HP and cut weight. Re-gearing can also add to top end, but I have no idea how much. Any of you number guys (DAVE or LivinLOS ) able to calculate what an extra 4-6HP and re-gearing would add to the top end? Like I said earlier, I read that someone had clocked 200km/hr with these mods, but now I can't find the thread where I read it... I thought it was on the 2fiddy.com forum... (Personally I'm happy with the top speed I get now- on a bike that light and on Thai roads I generally would not feel comfortable going much faster.)
Happy Trails!

I'll take a stab at it.  My previous comparison of the R65 and the Ninja was incomplete.  If we were to assume that jackcorbett was 80 kilos at the time of ownership of the BMW, and then compare it to an 80 kilo Ninja rider it would be more true.  Stock Ninja would be hauling around 7.06 kg/hp with rider and the BMW would be hauling around 5.31 kg/hp.  So the Ninja would have to work ~42% harder to have the same performance.  Now assuming that you lose 6 kilos and gain 6 hp with an exhaust swap, you end up with 5.98 kg/hp, meaning the Ninja is working ~13% harder.

Wind resistance is going to be a factor, and the fairing on the Ninja is going to count for quite a bit.  The BMW had none, as evidenced in the following photo.  This added drag counts against it.



Another point to consider is gearing.
BMW
4.4 / 2.86 / 2.07 / 1.67 / 1.50 3.44 (final) (according to my math it had a primary drive no lower than 2.0)
Ninja
2.6 / 1.79 / 1.41 / 1.16 / 1.00 / .0893 3.07 (final)

Obviously the BMW was geared much lower than the Ninja.  The increased torque from the BMW lends itself to this, and would seem to put it in a league higher than possible with the Ninja.

But all this is academic.  A Ninja with stock sprockets is incapable of hitting an indicated 200 (although iit would come within 3 kph).  If you were to change the sprockets, the added power needed to accomdate the smaller mechanical advantage offered by the new sprockets will throw current calculations off.  And for the record, to reach your indicated 200, you'd have to have a 14/42 setup.

Currently you've got 170 indicated WOT.  That's 153 actual.  You would have to increase your speed an actual 27 KPH to have an indicated 200.  That means you need 17% more gearing.  However, if you're WOT and only pulling a real 153, you're actually 25% off the theoretical top speed.  Totally discounting wind resistance logarithmic increase, you'd have to have gearing that would actually take you to a theoretical top speed of 225.  That's 15/36 sprockets.  15/36 sprockets gives you a ratio of 2.4, or 28% less mechanical advantage.

So unless you find a way to increase your power by a minimum of 28% to the rear wheel, write the idea off.

[LivinLOS]

Way too much detail and guesswork but..

dave_boo, on 2009-01-04 08:30:07, said:

Currently you've got 170 indicated WOT.  That's 153 actual.

I think Tony was pulling just a bit more than that...

As I said my GPS which should be accurateish had a 164 (I think.. It was +160) and Tony and I were kinda neck and neck top speed which is amazing considering a bandit should put out 60hp.. The fairing and lighter rider, plus ropey nature of my old bandit made it close, I felt like I could fairly easily reel in over acceleration and at mid speeds and had a tiny bit more (like just a kph or so) at flat out.. But when he ducked behind the screen and really held on if I let him get a bit of distance, it would take a long way to reel him back in. When the engine size and power output (plus reliability ) are considered thats a big achievement for the Ninja..

Also of note is the rider weight.. Put me (110 - 115 kg) on a 250 and its going to have to fight a lot harder than Tony who I am guessing is ballpark 85 ish ?? For me the 250 class 4 strokes just a shade under what I would consider owning by choice.. The D-Tracker is the same, feels great but just lacking a little sparkle especially for the bigger guy, maybe a different exhaust and a FI remap could be the tipping point (especially on the d-Tracker which isnt a top end speed type bike).. So when ride advice or these in absolute detail to the kph top speed things are mentioned, its worth remembering I would get a lot less than Tony or the average Thai rider.

Either way.. Kwaker has a price point and model range that beats any of the other names out in Thailand.. I havent yet gone to my local to hear his excuses on the ER6 yet but will do soon.

[dave_boo]

LivinLOS, on 2009-01-04 05:51:53, said:

Way too much detail and guesswork but..

dave_boo, on 2009-01-04 08:30:07, said:

Currently you've got 170 indicated WOT. That's 153 actual.

I think Tony was pulling just a bit more than that...

As I said my GPS which should be accurateish had a 164 (I think.. It was +160) and Tony and I were kinda neck and neck top speed which is amazing considering a bandit should put out 60hp.. The fairing and lighter rider, plus ropey nature of my old bandit made it close, I felt like I could fairly easily reel in over acceleration and at mid speeds and had a tiny bit more (like just a kph or so) at flat out.. But when he ducked behind the screen and really held on if I let him get a bit of distance, it would take a long way to reel him back in. When the engine size and power output (plus reliability ) are considered thats a big achievement for the Ninja..

Also of note is the rider weight.. Put me (110 - 115 kg) on a 250 and its going to have to fight a lot harder than Tony who I am guessing is ballpark 85 ish ?? For me the 250 class 4 strokes just a shade under what I would consider owning by choice.. The D-Tracker is the same, feels great but just lacking a little sparkle especially for the bigger guy, maybe a different exhaust and a FI remap could be the tipping point (especially on the d-Tracker which isnt a top end speed type bike).. So when ride advice or these in absolute detail to the kph top speed things are mentioned, its worth remembering I would get a lot less than Tony or the average Thai rider.

Either way.. Kwaker has a price point and model range that beats any of the other names out in Thailand.. I havent yet gone to my local to hear his excuses on the ER6 yet but will do soon.

Yes, there's a lot of assumptions in my figuring.  The Iron Butt Ride showed that the Ninjas are 10% out, which has been confirmed by both mine and Bard's GPS units.  So if you were running neck to neck at 164 proper, Tony was indicating 180.  That actual is with in 8% of the theoretical top speed.  Dropping down to a 42 rear sprocket and going up to a 15 front, will get you an indicated 200.  To actually hit a real live 200, you'd need a 15 front 38 rear; that's assuming the bike will stay at 8% of the theoretical limit!

[thaicbr]

Dave. stop going of at the mouth and give the guy a straight line race. then all is sorted. and its fuc_k all to do with how much money you have. correct tyre pressure my arse.

the Raider is a very competent bike it is unlikely to beat a Ninja 250 in a straight line but through traffic uuummm not so sure.

So give the guy a ride and stop spouting bollocks. not all of us have loads of money, some of us have modest incomes living here in Thailand but are very happy with our modest belongings and very happy balanced lives.
Allan

[LivinLOS]

Does this new Ninja thread need all this crap ??

And Ninja v a raider.. The Ninja should have it across the whole speed range I would have guessed.. However a well ridden raider through bangkok traffic ?? A hard machine / location combo for anything to beat.. They go like a rat up a drainpipe through gaps you didnt even know where there.

[BigBikeBKK]

LivinLOS, on 2009-01-04 10:51:53, said:

I havent yet gone to my local to hear his excuses on the ER6 yet but will do soon.

Hi LivinLOS! Happy New Year! Did you hear some news on the ER-6n? Will the release be delayed as rumored? I'm out of the country so would appreciate any info you might have.

Dave and NeverDie- pretty fun to watch you guys go at it, but you guys need to CHILL! Where is the love?!

I'm just as happy riding with somebody on a Raider as I am trying to keep up with Trent on his XJR1300. The bike is a lot less important than the attitude of the guy riding it.

Happy Trails!

[PeaceBlondie]

All posts that include insults are deleted in total.  I do not have the patience or finger coordination to cut and paste.

Enjoy the thread.  Please follow forum rules, and stay on topic. Thanks.

[LivinLOS]

BigBikeBKK, on 2009-01-04 16:07:16, said:

LivinLOS, on 2009-01-04 10:51:53, said:

I havent yet gone to my local to hear his excuses on the ER6 yet but will do soon.

Hi LivinLOS! Happy New Year! Did you hear some news on the ER-6n?

At this point I dont know anything, but havent heard of its arrival yet either..

Been meaning to get out and check but I have visiting houseguests.. And high season visiting mates who need to be shown the lowest spots !!

Happy new year to you too man.. Hope we manage some meets over the year, will make the effort to head up north more.

[Bard]

Was on Bira yesterday and tested out the track with me, Simon and Trent. Mine is exhaust upgraded, Simon was on Stock Ninja 250 and Trent had his flying fridge. The lesson learned with Stock vs Area-P was that I never changed gear on the track at all just kept 4th and did nice from slower in the curves, uphill to 140 km/h indicated on speedo on the straight section without any problem. Simon in Stock had to work the gear all the track to be able to ride it properly. To say the least it is way more torque and power with the upgrade, and I can really see the benefit of changing the sprocket in front to the 15 to match the upgrade a bit better. But if you're after 0-100 just do the upgrade and keep the stock sprocket kit.

btw Trent's fridge was to heavy for the track, was some other cool bikes there as well, 250 moto, R1, ZX-6RR, and so on, the 250's were real fun on the track being so nimble it was great fun and we all learned a lot by riding the track. Think a 600 supersport would be extreme fun on the track though. A very good value added bonus was to meet up with some really cool guys who was racers and shared lot of knowledge with all of us. A perfect day out.

Cheers Bard

[dave_boo]

Bard, on 2009-01-05 07:26:13, said:

Was on Bira yesterday and tested out the track with me, Simon and Trent. Mine is exhaust upgraded, Simon was on Stock Ninja 250 and Trent had his flying fridge. The lesson learned with Stock vs Area-P was that I never changed gear on the track at all just kept 4th and did nice from slower in the curves, uphill to 140 km/h indicated on speedo on the straight section without any problem. Simon in Stock had to work the gear all the track to be able to ride it properly. To say the least it is way more torque and power with the upgrade, and I can really see the benefit of changing the sprocket in front to the 15 to match the upgrade a bit better. But if you're after 0-100 just do the upgrade and keep the stock sprocket kit.

btw Trent's fridge was to heavy for the track, was some other cool bikes there as well, 250 moto, R1, ZX-6RR, and so on, the 250's were real fun on the track being so nimble it was great fun and we all learned a lot by riding the track. Think a 600 supersport would be extreme fun on the track though. A very good value added bonus was to meet up with some really cool guys who was racers and shared lot of knowledge with all of us. A perfect day out.

Cheers Bard

Good report.  Out of curiousity, how close to each other were you in weight?  Did that play a big factor in him having to row through the gears, or was it all due to the Area-P upgrade?

Wish I had been there; seeing Trent wrestle his Yamaha around would have been mildly amusing.  I need to try and make the trip down to Bira, the only track time in my life was behind Seacon which would be much too small to have much fun on a Ninjette.