718 replies to this topic
Posted 2009-01-03 17:11:54
 sibeymai, on 2009-01-03 11:17:37, said:
I don't hold much hope for a transparent investigation. The Thong Lo police are not likely to make much progress investigating themselves.....
Wasn't it in Thong Lo (or certainly near there) that an entire city block of small-scale merchants were wiped out of business a few years ago - their little stalls, full with merchandise, smashed to bits by a hired mob(?) If memory serves, the local man who hired the mob was a massage parlor tycoon, and got off unscathed. The main reason he wasn't prosecuted was he publicly threatened to name names of corrupt city officials / policemen (affiliated with Thong Lo). Not only that, the mob leader went on to become a popular local politician - though it's doubtful he got votes from the merchants whose businesses he destroyed. I'm relieved I don't live in the Thong Lo area.
Posted 2009-01-03 17:12:09
... all this blaming and wannaknow better starts all over again.
We all know it is like it is.
Thailand is Thailand and where are many people come together xxx happens.
Thats just life.
maxi
Posted 2009-01-03 17:29:41
bino, on 2009-01-03 17:06:41, said: Quote The Police Chief added the incident was not likely arson, as the club's insurance had expired in mid 2008.
-- TNA/MCOT 2009-01-02
I sincerely hope that arson is not the case, that no person would intentionally set the place on fire whilst it is packed full of people on New Year's Eve. However, psychopaths do exist, and it could happen.
There could be many other motives for torching the place- doesn't need to be insurance / profit.
How about revenge? Considering that the lease was expiring and the club closing after that night, I can imagine some scenarios.
We all know that it is a classic play in Thailand for landlords to deny renewing a lease when they see a successful business operating on their properties- with the intention of taking it over. What if the outgoing tenant who built the business figured that burning the place down and causing a scandal would be a sure-fire (pun intended) way to deny him that ability?
The "house" handing out sparklers.... creating "plausible denability" ?
Maybe the arsonist didn't expect it to get so far out of hand and people to be killed?
About insurance, whoever was operating the business on the premises would need liability insurance et al, but wouldn't the fire insurance on the building / structure be the responsibility of the owner? If the building owner let it lapse (and the tenant knew it), it might be another " F U " from the outgoing tenant.
This is my favorite conspiracy theory right now.
I wonder if the police have charges such as "accidental arson" or perhaps "nearly arson", in addition to "not likely arson"?
Want to bet that this lot will not be built on for quite a long time? Surely not another club. My guess is perhaps another park as we now have near Sukumvit Soi 10.
Sorry to be so negative, it just seems to be the reality of the human condition here.
Posted 2009-01-03 17:36:10
Regardless of how much we consider the owners accountable, I hope they've got the decency to show their faces to the police and not "flee the scene" (as we're so used to hearing).
When I first heard the news about a fire in a nightclub in BKK, my first thoughts were of somewhere in Patpong or a run-down karaoke/massage joint in the backstreets. Came as a bit of a shock it was a much more (supposedly) modern venue.
May the victims of this horrible tragedy RIP.
Posted 2009-01-03 17:58:18
steffi, on 2009-01-03 11:41:10, said: RubbahSlippahs, on 2009-01-03 04:36:16, said: I agree with you and it sucks to start the NYR off like this. I used to frequent this club in the past and they do cram the place unitl it's packed as every other venue, bus, etc. This goes for other clubs on Silom Soi 4 etc..
My heart goes out to the people and their families.
As nationalistic as the people are here, they really don't seem to care about safety, the environment, education, and the list goes on!
It makes me sick to see such negligence.
balo, on 2009-01-01 07:38:17, said: RIP 
This is sad news for Thailand.
Speaking of being nationalistic and all....
What do you think the reason was for the Police to initially state the many of the victims were foreigners?
This one is easy and it has absolutely nothing to do with nationalism.
There is no question that the police, on scene and talking to firemen, knew most of the victims were Thai. However, with the media swarming, they needed to buy time from locals to get a better understanding of how this club, licensed as a food establishment that was required to close by midnight, was allowed to continue to operate as a nightclub for more than 4 years. Soon after they announced that they didn't want the Santika to operate, but the administrative court issued an injunction 4 years prior that was still in force that they had to obey. The comment on foreigners has not been made again.
Right now, the Adm. Court's explanation is awaited and it should be made within a day or two.
There is a lot of unanswered questions, many to do with culpability for this tragedy and many to do with how this club was allowed to operate in the first place.
Posted 2009-01-03 18:03:48
Insight, on 2009-01-03 17:36:10, said: Regardless of how much we consider the owners accountable, I hope they've got the decency to show their faces to the police and not "flee the scene" (as we're so used to hearing).
When I first heard the news about a fire in a nightclub in BKK, my first thoughts were of somewhere in Patpong or a run-down karaoke/massage joint in the backstreets. Came as a bit of a shock it was a much more (supposedly) modern venue.
May the victims of this horrible tragedy RIP.
Insight, while I don't think the owners will flee the scene long term, below is a link to the picture of one of the owners (Wisut) who is #66.
http://student.nu.ac...CLUB/racing.asp
Please note, and this is important, neither Wisut nor any of the other owners has been shown to be culpable for this fire. In fact, Wisut was in the club at the time and was one of the injured.
Posted 2009-01-03 18:10:37
Jingthing, on 2009-01-03 16:40:17, said: In a totalitarian state like China the owners would no doubt face the death penalty. Is that really helpful? Thailand has a new PM. Maybe he will see both the real benefit and political benefit in beefing up first safety standards and its overall relation to fighting corruption.
It's pretty funny. The very people here who keep talk about the rule of law, are the first one to judge without evidence, and are arguing for long prison terms even before any of the facts are known.
Posted 2009-01-03 18:35:35
Basil B, on 2009-01-03 16:01:11, said: HorseDoctor, on 2009-01-03 07:01:27, said: Whatever the cause of the fire, I think it's a given that other fire safety regualtions were ignored and the blatant disregard of these regulations is about as political as it gets.
Sorry but I think this is the one that will finally expose Thailand's true colours to the world - no matter how much censoring is pushed on us.
Sorry but I think you are talking total Bull Sh!t, it is a not a political issue, this problem of corruption and taking bribes to look away is older than any political party, what Thailand needs now is a leader with enough gut's to do something about it.
Please, you are taking my use of the word "political" too literally - corruption IS political, in fact I'd say all human interaction IS political.
Just the act of some trying to prevent our speculative analysis of blame, etc is proof of the political-ness of it .
Posted 2009-01-03 18:46:25
HorseDoctor, on 2009-01-03 18:35:35, said: Basil B, on 2009-01-03 16:01:11, said: HorseDoctor, on 2009-01-03 07:01:27, said: Whatever the cause of the fire, I think it's a given that other fire safety regualtions were ignored and the blatant disregard of these regulations is about as political as it gets.
Sorry but I think this is the one that will finally expose Thailand's true colours to the world - no matter how much censoring is pushed on us.
Sorry but I think you are talking total Bull Sh!t, it is a not a political issue, this problem of corruption and taking bribes to look away is older than any political party, what Thailand needs now is a leader with enough gut's to do something about it.
Please, you are taking my use of the word "political" too literally - corruption IS political, in fact I'd say all human interaction IS political.
Just the act of some trying to prevent our speculative analysis of blame, etc is proof of the political-ness of it .
Not exactly. there are plenty members here who would love to have an excuse to make narcissistic comments and rile people up and the political angle gives them the excuse.
That seems to me why they moderators are removing political statements from this thread to stop the a holes from taking this thread off topic.
However I don't think that we can seperate the politics from this event as it is clearly corruption that has made this event into the nightmare that as the club shouldn't have been open as a club in the first place let alone for 4 years. Thonglor Police have got to answer for that and as one person already pointed out the police are actually paying for all the victims medical costs. That probably also means they will be available for the lawyers and insurance companies to contact directly and will make all arangments necessary to cover the expenses incurred. Hence they are going to pay everyone whatever they are legally due.
Basically if the victims were poorer they wouldn't have to pay as much.
Posted 2009-01-03 18:55:06
Maxi101, on 2009-01-03 17:12:09, said: ... all this blaming and wannaknow better starts all over again.
We all know it is like it is.
Thailand is Thailand and where are many people come together xxx happens.
Thats just life.
maxi
mai bpen rai.
Posted 2009-01-03 19:11:20
Chinese indoor fireworks causing fire ?
http://www.welt.de/e...injures-88.html
Sound similar, a few months ago, killing 43 in a nightclub in Shenzen.
Posted 2009-01-03 19:25:45
LevelHead, on 2009-01-03 19:11:20, said:
well, why it doesn't say that fire inspectors think combustible fumes from the fireworks collecting along the ceiling were the culprit, interesting that they suggest a lack of ventilation was a contributing factor- normally ventilation would feed a fire oxygen
mmm Yes, very interesting
Posted 2009-01-03 19:45:17
kiakaha, on 2009-01-03 17:14:51, said: taxexile, on 2009-01-03 10:31:47, said: Quote the Emergency Services in Thailand are not exactly benevolent, and get their own form of compensation by stealing from the victims. A Sad but thrue fact.
got anything to back up that statement ?
FACT : 2 of my friends are still alive DIRECTLY due to the heroics of the thai fire department.
I think the OP is alluding not to the Fire Services, but to the Por Teck Teung, who have been accused ad nauseam of rifling through the pockets of those it purports to help.
It has been widely debated, likely not an issue meriting re-examination regarding this disco inferno though.
Posted 2009-01-03 20:21:58
Shame to see PM Abhisit, an educated man publicly sidestep the important saftey issues such as emergency exits and sprinkers systems by saying that fire crackers should not be bought into clubs, what a cop-out.
Posted 2009-01-03 20:32:00
Point well taken.
Posted 2009-01-03 20:38:10
As I stated in a post a while back, these places are often not licensed. They make the application, which is never approved (but maybe not denied). The application stays in limbo and the police can collect tea money to allow it to operate without a license. There may well be others who also get paid off--maybe to at least not deny the license.
I do know of another place that was in a similar situation and was paying a huge weekly amount to stay open.
In this case, I don't know who or what, but someone was making money besides the owner.
Posted 2009-01-03 21:12:42
Old Man River, on 2009-01-03 18:03:48, said: Insight, on 2009-01-03 17:36:10, said: Regardless of how much we consider the owners accountable, I hope they've got the decency to show their faces to the police and not "flee the scene" (as we're so used to hearing).
When I first heard the news about a fire in a nightclub in BKK, my first thoughts were of somewhere in Patpong or a run-down karaoke/massage joint in the backstreets. Came as a bit of a shock it was a much more (supposedly) modern venue.
May the victims of this horrible tragedy RIP.
Insight, while I don't think the owners will flee the scene long term, below is a link to the picture of one of the owners (Wisut) who is #66.
http://student.nu.ac...CLUB/racing.asp
Please note, and this is important, neither Wisut nor any of the other owners has been shown to be culpable for this fire. In fact, Wisut was in the club at the time and was one of the injured.
OMR, was just continuing on from the last post by SibeyMai:
sibeymai, on 2009-01-03 16:32:42, said: withnail, on 2009-01-03 15:52:17, said: I agree with that taxexile, but that doesn't necessarily mean it should be the owner. Not that I'm saying he's innocent I'm just saying there's probably more to it than that.
But as you say, it probably won't ammount to anything anyway.
Good point added after your edit about the police.
If the owner is not responsible, then who is ?
It's the owner's business. It's the owner who employs and pays the staff. It's the owner who buys a new Benz from the profits.
the owner is not the only person responsible in this case. Thong Lo police are responsible along with the BMA.
ALL OF THEM NEED OT BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE WITH LONG PRISON TERMS AND LARGE COMPENSATION PAYMENTS TO THE VICTIMS AND JAIL TERMS COMENSURATE WITH THE SUFFERING THE VICTIMS WILL ENDURE FOR THE REST OF THEIR LIVES.
I also agree with SibeyMai that the buck has to stop somewhere. I read one report (not sure if it was in BP or The Nation - will dig out on request) stating that the whole place was ablaze within 10 minutes of the first flames being spotted! Be the cause fireworks, sparklers, whatever, 10 minutes is a seriously short bit of time to allow people to escape.
Okay, you could argue that the owners were had no obligation to ensure adequate fire precautions had been installed as they were under no/limited legal obligation to do so, but that won't do much to console the friends and relatives of the victims and injured.
Posted 2009-01-03 21:23:21
hamishgillan, on 2009-01-03 20:21:58, said: Shame to see PM Abhisit, an educated man publicly sidestep the important saftey issues such as emergency exits and sprinkers systems by saying that fire crackers should not be bought into clubs, what a cop-out.
Was the fire cracker remark his only discussion of the topic? No.
Posted 2009-01-03 22:33:00
Old Man River, on 2009-01-03 18:58:18, said: steffi, on 2009-01-03 11:41:10, said: RubbahSlippahs, on 2009-01-03 04:36:16, said: I agree with you and it sucks to start the NYR off like this. I used to frequent this club in the past and they do cram the place unitl it's packed as every other venue, bus, etc. This goes for other clubs on Silom Soi 4 etc..
My heart goes out to the people and their families.
As nationalistic as the people are here, they really don't seem to care about safety, the environment, education, and the list goes on!
It makes me sick to see such negligence.
balo, on 2009-01-01 07:38:17, said: RIP
This is sad news for Thailand.
Speaking of being nationalistic and all....
What do you think the reason was for the Police to initially state the many of the victims were foreigners?
This one is easy and it has absolutely nothing to do with nationalism.
There is no question that the police, on scene and talking to firemen, knew most of the victims were Thai. However, with the media swarming, they needed to buy time from locals to get a better understanding of how this club, licensed as a food establishment that was required to close by midnight, was allowed to continue to operate as a nightclub for more than 4 years. Soon after they announced that they didn't want the Santika to operate, but the administrative court issued an injunction 4 years prior that was still in force that they had to obey. The comment on foreigners has not been made again.
Right now, the Adm. Court's explanation is awaited and it should be made within a day or two.
There is a lot of unanswered questions, many to do with culpability for this tragedy and many to do with how this club was allowed to operate in the first place.
Passing the hot potato.
Posted 2009-01-03 22:47:46
Old Man River, on 2009-01-03 10:58:18, said: steffi, on 2009-01-03 11:41:10, said: RubbahSlippahs, on 2009-01-03 04:36:16, said: I agree with you and it sucks to start the NYR off like this. I used to frequent this club in the past and they do cram the place unitl it's packed as every other venue, bus, etc. This goes for other clubs on Silom Soi 4 etc..
My heart goes out to the people and their families.
As nationalistic as the people are here, they really don't seem to care about safety, the environment, education, and the list goes on!
It makes me sick to see such negligence.
balo, on 2009-01-01 07:38:17, said: RIP
This is sad news for Thailand.
Speaking of being nationalistic and all....
What do you think the reason was for the Police to initially state the many of the victims were foreigners?
This one is easy and it has absolutely nothing to do with nationalism.
There is no question that the police, on scene and talking to firemen, knew most of the victims were Thai. However, with the media swarming, they needed to buy time from locals to get a better understanding of how this club, licensed as a food establishment that was required to close by midnight, was allowed to continue to operate as a nightclub for more than 4 years. Soon after they announced that they didn't want the Santika to operate, but the administrative court issued an injunction 4 years prior that was still in force that they had to obey. The comment on foreigners has not been made again.
Right now, the Adm. Court's explanation is awaited and it should be made within a day or two.
There is a lot of unanswered questions, many to do with culpability for this tragedy and many to do with how this club was allowed to operate in the first place.
For me it has everything to do with nationalism. That statement was predicated on the notion that Thais would care less about foreigners dying than locals. Their attention would be diverted if the majority of deaths were foreigners.
Does anybody know what all the references to Hobb bar are about then? I'm guessing the owner is somehow connected with this other club.
Edited by steffi, 2009-01-03 23:11:26.
Posted 2009-01-03 22:52:54
brahmburgers, on 2009-01-03 17:11:54, said: Wasn't it in Thong Lo (or certainly near there) that an entire city block of small-scale merchants were wiped out of business a few years ago - their little stalls, full with merchandise, smashed to bits by a hired mob(?) If memory serves, the local man who hired the mob was a massage parlor tycoon, and got off unscathed....
Chuwit Kamolvisit: Thug, MP, ex-MP, 3rd in Bangkok governor elections in 2004 and 2008. Lovely chap.
Posted 2009-01-03 23:05:57
Would it be possible for a MOD to pin all the relevent up to date infomation about this event,.....reading through all this is impossible...!!
Posted 2009-01-03 23:15:53
Insight, on 2009-01-03 21:12:42, said: I also agree with SibeyMai that the buck has to stop somewhere. I read one report (not sure if it was in BP or The Nation - will dig out on request) stating that the whole place was ablaze within 10 minutes of the first flames being spotted! Be the cause fireworks, sparklers, whatever, 10 minutes is a seriously short bit of time to allow people to escape.
Do anyone know if an accurate timeline of events exists?
Edited by chrislarsson, 2009-01-03 23:17:10.
Posted 2009-01-04 00:52:29
k1w1, on 2009-01-01 22:51:46, said: Does anyone know if the performers that were on stage at the time were able to get out or not?
It begs the question because if they could get out then the other people at the front should have been able to get out too. The problem is there are several reports that the majority of bodies were found at the pit next to the stage. Does this mean the live act just jumped up and left as soon as the fire started? Shouldn't they have been attempting to direct people out the various exits as they should have known the layout of the club fairly well at least enough to navigate in the dark...
Where were the other trained staff with flashlights to direct the crowd?
What about the bouncers? Were they able to assist at all?
--
I have been asking myself the same question on the performers; i was on the balcony on the opposite side. When the flames were visible above the stage, they stopped playing. I saw them putting down instruments, but then i did not pay attention anymore as I decided it was time to leave the building. Just when I was down the stairs at the entrance area, the ceiling collapsed here too. The light shut down and smoke fell down. I managed to get out. there was still a lot of smoke and i was relieved when someone shouted in English "you're out, you're safe now". Thanks dude, you reassured me at that time.
No Bouncers, No torches, no safety lights, no sound, no warning, nothing whatsoever. Sense of direction was totally gone. At the point I was almost out, the panic must have started because of the darkness. With the entrace/exit area also in flames people must have had no clue where to go.
After putting the friends into the car, I returned to help. i moved wounded people away from the entrance area, as well as people who were in shock. As the minutes passed, their condition worsened.
THere was no way to get back in, the fire was everywhere. Thinking back, I should have stand at the door and shout 'exit here!' or light the entrance area with car headlights. I didnt think of it, even if i experienced the darkness in there. I guess noone else did. I'm truly sorry.
My best wishes to the friends and family of people who lost their lives. i saw them looking into te flames in dispair. May you recover soon!
Vince
Posted 2009-01-04 00:57:56
chrislarsson, on 2009-01-03 23:15:53, said: Insight, on 2009-01-03 21:12:42, said: I also agree with SibeyMai that the buck has to stop somewhere. I read one report (not sure if it was in BP or The Nation - will dig out on request) stating that the whole place was ablaze within 10 minutes of the first flames being spotted! Be the cause fireworks, sparklers, whatever, 10 minutes is a seriously short bit of time to allow people to escape.
Do anyone know if an accurate timeline of events exists?
I should be able to derive it from the timestamps of the pictures of my digital camera. Will check that out.
I've got the killer fireworks pictured, taken from inside Santika through the window (i have many reasons to believe it's the big fireworks opposite the building that set the outer roof on fire - it spread on the outer roof before falling through the inner roof, making it seem as it spread fast freom the point above the stage that everyone mentions as the first spot).
as well as the fire spreading (the windows on the 1st floor on the left side of the building were the first to let flames through).
A rough estimate would be 5 to 10 minutes from the appearance of the flames above the stage to the whole bulding being in flames indeed
Vince
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