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[somluck]

brahmburgers, on 2009-01-03 18:11:54, said:

sibeymai, on 2009-01-03 11:17:37, said:

I don't hold much hope for a transparent investigation. The Thong Lo police are not likely to make much progress investigating themselves.....

Wasn't it in Thong Lo (or certainly near there) that an entire city block of small-scale merchants were wiped out of business a few years ago - their little stalls, full with merchandise, smashed to bits by a hired mob(?)  If memory serves, the local man who hired the mob was a massage parlor tycoon, and got off unscathed.  The main reason he wasn't prosecuted was he publicly threatened to name names of corrupt city officials / policemen (affiliated with Thong Lo).  Not only that, the mob leader went on to become a popular local politician - though it's doubtful he got votes from the merchants whose businesses he destroyed.   I'm relieved I don't live in the Thong Lo area.

http://www.geocities...oi10razing.html

[HorseDoctor]

brahmburgers, on 2009-01-04 09:05:53, said:

thanks Vincentc for your first hand comments - particularly the idea that a separate fire may have started concurrently on the roof.  ...and don't get down on yourself for not doing more.  It sounds like your sentiments and courage were in the right place.  We could all look back on dramatic situations and think how we could have done things differently.

There are construction methods and materials that can lessen fire danger.  When I build in Thailand, I don't use ceiling tiles (I go with open-beam), I use wood as little as possible (for 3 main reasons: fire danger, bugs/rot, and because don't want to cause trees to get felled).   I go with masonry where possible.

Exits should be marked and well-placed.  Ideally, there should be sprinkler systems installed, and DC-powered (battery) lights - especially at exits - which turn on automatically when there's danger.

  Your assumption that concrete is more fireproof  than wood is mistaken , A tree trunk will remain unburned in the center long after a similarly sized concrete pillar has disintegrated from heat.
Also, no one has stated the fire started inside, that is an assumption . the most recent testimony from Somluck ( or the post) says in fact the stage pyrotechnics went out

"...i lay my eyes on it and about 6-7 seconds later it died off. But less than 1 minutes, just above the roof of the stage, fire broke out fiercely. the singer and band started to run and people started moving towards the "only exist" as patronise/clubber known..."

VincentC's eyewitness testimony has the fire starting on the roof from adjacent fireworks. This explains the rapidity of the fire spreading and the ceiling falling.

Sorry , but I"m thinking  maybe no one is to blame in this .. other than a Thai propensity for use of flying fireworks that is legal. Seems there was some lighting  after the main lighting went out , though it's not clear if this was emergency lighting.

Edited by HorseDoctor, 2009-01-04 10:26:28.

[Jimjim]

somluck, on 2009-01-04 10:39:43, said:

1st person's account posted in another forum

I would like to share my experience with you guys when the night this incident happen. i was there and i am a Singaporean celebrating my new year countdown there.


(Above article is my personel experience encounter just to share and hope others to know my personel situation. Sorry that i will not reply to any post)

That is an amazing account.  I didn't realize that there were people waiting inside for so long that were able to survive.  Luck and very smart thinking kept this man and his friends alive.

Also, the official news keeps saying it was started inside.  However, eyewitness reports here state that is possible it started from fireworks that fell on top of the building.  I hope the police fire investigators are getting those reports and will include them in their study of the scene.

Edited by Jimjim, 2009-01-04 10:26:41.

[Journalist]

One can foresee a situation in which a swift example is made of the owner of the Santika Club, but the wider (and more important) issue of improving safety in venues is allowed to wither on the vine

[kat]

"It was an enjoyable moment and there is another pyrotechnics display outside the club. The pyrotechnics display were ignited on top of an old building opposite the club."

It would be useful to know who lit the "pyrotechnics" display opposite the club, and learn more details about it.

Thank you Vince and Somluck for the first-hand accounts of your ordeal.  It sounds like you have a lot to be thankful for the new year.  My heart-felt sympathy to those who were not as lucky.

[samgrowth]

UtopiaFlorida, on 2009-01-04 09:21:23, said:

steffi, on 2009-01-04 07:46:07, said:

oevna, on 2009-01-04 00:18:33, said:

steffi, on 2009-01-03 15:13:48, said:

So my wife tells me that this page details the investors and the distributions and the profit for each year.

Seems odd since the club takes in 70 million baht and only has a 2 million baht profit. Is that right?

68 million Baht does seem rather high for the operating expenses of a night club. It would be interesting to see the books for this business.

I'm guessing they are getting gauged on the rent but you suspect there's some "washing" going on here?

I was doing Event Planning in Europe and considering the drinking prices of Santika of 160 Bath for a beer it is not unusual to have around $ 40,000 - $60,000 in gross sales per night. The gross annual sale of 68 million Bath seems right, but the net profit is way to little. It should be over 10 Million or
more easily

I cannot confirm anything. IMHO the number is about right.
The share holders are mostly Bangkok elite Chinese rich kids who drive fancy cars (some even have Ferrari) that often park in front of the club. They don't expect much returns for their invest. Most of them do it for fun, with their spare cash given by their parents. Managment is loose (hence the low profit), and share holders oftens let their friend in for free, and even free drinks. The bulk of the money also goes to police, authorities, rent and the entertainers, which is very expensive. Like Bad Boy Joey, who is playing that night.

[samgrowth]

JetsetBkk, on 2009-01-03 23:52:54, said:

brahmburgers, on 2009-01-03 17:11:54, said:

Wasn't it in Thong Lo (or certainly near there) that an entire city block of small-scale merchants were wiped out of business a few years ago - their little stalls, full with merchandise, smashed to bits by a hired mob(?) If memory serves, the local man who hired the mob was a massage parlor tycoon, and got off unscathed....

Chuwit Kamolvisit: Thug, MP, ex-MP, 3rd in Bangkok governor elections in 2004 and 2008. Lovely chap.

Chuwit claim that police corruption is common in the entertainment industry

"Chuwit insists he paid millions to many policemen in many different precincts. Trays of Rolex watches and plastic bags full of cash allegedly changed hands."

http://www.tomvater.com/chuwit.html

[Tigs]

[quote name='samgrowth' post='2445477' date='2009-01-04 10:48:44'][quote name='UtopiaFlorida' post='2445299' date='2009-01-04 09:21:23'][quote name='steffi' post='2445270' date='2009-01-04 07:46:07'][quote name='oevna' post='2445250' date='2009-01-04 00:18:33'][quote name='steffi' post='2445215' date='2009-01-03 15:13:48']So my wife tells me that this page details the investors and the distributions and the profit for each year.

Seems odd since the club takes in 70 million baht and only has a 2 million baht profit. Is that right?[/quote]

68 million Baht does seem rather high for the operating expenses of a night club. It would be interesting to see the books for this business.
[/quote]

I'm guessing they are getting gauged on the rent but you suspect there's some "washing" going on here?

[/quote]

I was doing Event Planning in Europe and considering the drinking prices of Santika of 160 Bath for a beer it is not unusual to have around $ 40,000 - $60,000 in gross sales per night. The gross annual sale of 68 million Bath seems right, but the net profit is way to little. It should be over 10 Million or
more easily
[/quote]

I cannot confirm anything. IMHO the number is about right.
The share holders are mostly Bangkok elite Chinese rich kids who drive fancy cars (some even have Ferrari) that often park in front of the club. They don't expect much returns for their invest. Most of them do it for fun, with their spare cash given by their parents. Managment is loose (hence the low profit), and share holders oftens let their friend in for free, and even free drinks. The bulk of the money also goes to police, authorities, rent and the entertainers, which is very expensive. Like Bad Boy Joey, who is playing that night.
[/quote]


The owners could be paying themselves any amount they wish or giving out anything they wish to themselves in 'shareholders dividends'. They could hire a table and chair off a friendly supplier for 1 million baht to have 950 K come straight back to them in cash. The profits they declare are just the sums of money they are resigned to paying taxes on.


Somluck (I think you should change your name to lotsofluck)

That is a very dramatic account, thank you. I sincerely hope that time will help heal both yourself and your gf. I think you both owe your lives to your ability to keep a cool head when everyone else was starting to (naturally) panic. Good Luck

[nickynomates]

[quote name='somluck' date='2009-01-04 09:39:43' post='2445379']
[u]1st person's account posted in another forum[/u]

I would like to share my experience with you guys when the night this incident happen. i was there and i am a Singaporean celebrating my new year countdown there.


Thank you for putting this post up and sharing this with us all.

[oevna]

samgrowth, on 2009-01-03 19:48:44, said:

...

I cannot confirm anything. IMHO the number is about right.
The share holders are mostly Bangkok elite Chinese rich kids who drive fancy cars (some even have Ferrari) that often park in front of the club. They don't expect much returns for their invest. Most of them do it for fun, with their spare cash given by their parents. Managment is loose (hence the low profit), and share holders oftens let their friend in for free, and even free drinks. The bulk of the money also goes to police, authorities, rent and the entertainers, which is very expensive. Like Bad Boy Joey, who is playing that night.

I think the question is not with the amount of money made, but with the large difference between the earnings (about 70 million baht) and the relatively low net profit (2 million baht).  In other words, how do the operating expenses of a night club account for about 68 million baht.

EDIT - As Tiggs mentioned, the owners could be paying themselves very high salaries (likely) and dividends to shareholders.

Edited by oevna, 2009-01-04 15:02:56.

[hansnl]

yabaaaa, on 2009-01-01 14:59:27, said:

You have things similar to this in the Uk with the train disasters a  few  years back, the result is the same, spend  millions on an inquiry and identify all the  faults  then pass it onto the government who pretend to take action but dont and then low and behold 4-5 years later its repeated again and followed by the usual "why weren't lessons learnt" type headlines. Time makes people forget otherwise there would'nt  be more  wars.. the war to end  all wars etc etc. Same with anything like this people are generally lazy and greedy and  "it wont ever  happen to them"

As soon as things are left to"forces of the market" safety will be scrimped upon.
Because it does not bring any gain, it only brings cost.

Now, a few days later, interesting things come to light:
- no more insurance;
- no safety implements;
- illegal business
- owner gone with the winds;
- and so on

Now guess with me: owners are..........

[Old Man River]

[quote name='steffi' post='2444877' date='2009-01-03 22:47:46'][quote name='Old Man River' post='2444552' date='2009-01-03 10:58:18'][quote name='steffi' post='2443887' date='2009-01-03 11:41:10'][quote name='RubbahSlippahs' post='2443881' date='2009-01-03 04:36:16']I agree with you and it sucks to start the NYR off like this.  I used to frequent this club in the past and they do cram the place unitl it's packed as every other venue, bus, etc.  This goes for other clubs on Silom Soi 4 etc..

My heart goes out to the people and their families.

As nationalistic as the people are here, they really don't seem to care about safety, the environment, education, and the list goes on!

It makes me sick to see such negligence.



[quote name='balo' post='2440412' date='2009-01-01 07:38:17']RIP

This is sad news for Thailand.[/quote]
[/quote]

Speaking of being nationalistic and all....

What do you think the reason was for the Police to initially state the many of the victims were foreigners?
[/quote]
This one is easy and it has absolutely nothing to do with nationalism.

There is no question that the police, on scene and talking to firemen, knew most of the victims were Thai. However, with the media swarming, they needed to buy time from locals to get a better understanding of how this club, licensed as a food establishment that was required to close by midnight, was allowed to continue to operate as a nightclub for more than 4 years. Soon after they announced that they didn't want the Santika to operate, but the administrative court issued an injunction 4 years prior that was still in force that they had to obey. The comment on foreigners has not been made again.

Right now, the Adm. Court's explanation is awaited and it should be made within a day or two.

There is a lot of unanswered questions, many to do with culpability for this tragedy and many to do with how this club was allowed to operate in the first place.
[/quote]

For me it has everything to do with nationalism. That statement was predicated on the notion that Thais would care less about foreigners dying than locals. Their attention would be diverted if the majority of deaths were foreigners.
[/quote]
We see this completely differently. To me, the initial comments by the police about more foreigners being involved than Thai's (not true) was to allay the fears of Thai parents until the police had time to sort out which kids were dead and injured. It bought time. To you, it was based on your beliefs that Thais care less about foreigners than Thais.  OK, perhaps, but I still don't think that was the basis for the comment. Let's agree to disagree.

[Jimjim]

hansnl, on 2009-01-04 16:10:30, said:

Now guess with me: owners are..........

Why guess?  There is a list on page 28 of this thread.  Spare us such comments.

[Old Man River]

[quote name='sibeymai' post='2445366' date='2009-01-04 09:28:24'][quote name='Old Man River' post='2445351' date='2009-01-04 09:17:15'][quote name='Insight' post='2444771' date='2009-01-03 21:12:42'][quote name='Old Man River' post='2444560' date='2009-01-03 18:03:48'][quote name='Insight' post='2444518' date='2009-01-03 17:36:10']Regardless of how much we consider the owners accountable, I hope they've got the decency to show their faces to the police and not "flee the scene" (as we're so used to hearing).

When I first heard the news about a fire in a nightclub in BKK, my first thoughts were of somewhere in Patpong or a run-down karaoke/massage joint in the backstreets. Came as a bit of a shock it was a much more (supposedly) modern venue.

May the victims of this horrible tragedy RIP.[/quote]
Insight, while I don't think the owners will flee the scene long term, below is a link to the picture of one of the owners (Wisut) who is #66.

[url="http://student.nu.ac.th/mayzaa_it4/HDJCLUB/racing.asp"]http://student.nu.ac.th/mayzaa_it4/HDJCLUB/racing.asp[/url]

Please note, and this is important, neither Wisut nor any of the other owners has been shown to be culpable for this fire. In fact, Wisut was in the club at the time and was one of the injured.
[/quote]

OMR, was just continuing on from the last post by SibeyMai:

[quote name='sibeymai' post='2444424' date='2009-01-03 16:32:42'][quote name='withnail' post='2444350' date='2009-01-03 15:52:17']I agree with that taxexile, but that doesn't necessarily mean it should be the owner. Not that I'm saying he's innocent I'm just saying there's probably more to it than that.

But as you say, it probably won't ammount to anything anyway.

Good point added after your edit about the police.[/quote]
If the owner is not responsible, then who is ?

It's the owner's business. It's the owner who employs and pays the staff. It's the owner who buys a new Benz from the profits.

the owner is not the only person responsible in this case. Thong Lo police are responsible along with the BMA.

ALL OF THEM NEED OT BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE WITH LONG PRISON TERMS AND LARGE COMPENSATION PAYMENTS TO THE VICTIMS AND JAIL TERMS COMENSURATE WITH THE SUFFERING THE VICTIMS WILL ENDURE FOR THE REST OF THEIR LIVES.
[/quote]

I also agree with SibeyMai that the buck has to stop somewhere. I read one report (not sure if it was in BP or The Nation - will dig out on request) stating that the whole place was ablaze within 10 minutes of the first flames being spotted! Be the cause fireworks, sparklers, whatever, 10 minutes is a seriously short bit of time to allow people to escape.

Okay, you could argue that the owners were had no obligation to ensure adequate fire precautions had been installed as they were under no/limited legal obligation to do so, but that won't do much to console the friends and relatives of the victims and injured.
[/quote]
No Insight. I am not arguing anything. Just making the comment that, at least in my country, you are innocent until proven guilty.  Perhaps it is different where you come from.

Are you aware that the BMA is responsible for checking fire safety conditions in buildings in Bangkok? They will also be defending themselves and it is quite possible the "buck" will stop in more than one place.
[/quote]
OMR, I agree with innocent until proven guilty. But there is already enough evidence to show that Thong Lo police, the BMA and as yet unidentified owner/operators have broken the law.

Thong Lo police did not close the venue down for operating as a pub and not as a restaurant (proven by the fact that the venue was operating after midnight as a pub, not a restaurant).

BMA did not enforce closure due to below standard safety of the building.

Owner/operators continued operating without the appropriate permits and allowed underage patrons entry.

All of these facts have been established, albeit outside a court of law. It only remains to identify the individuals responsible.
[/quote]
I don't disagree with your thoughts on this, but it is for the court's to decide, not us.

Immediately, I thought the police were as much at fault as anyone else, but then it has been reported that the Thong Lo police have been on a legal crusade to close this place down. They tried to not allow it to open, the Administrative Court issued an injunction to allow it to open, the Supreme Administrative Court agreed and then the Thong Lo police filed a new case to close it down, which is still pending. At present, the Thong Lo police are starting to look like the good guys, which runs counter of what I would have thought.

Best to let the people that do this for a living sort this all out and file appropriate charges.

[Old Man River]

oevna, on 2009-01-04 14:57:29, said:

samgrowth, on 2009-01-03 19:48:44, said:

...

I cannot confirm anything. IMHO the number is about right.
The share holders are mostly Bangkok elite Chinese rich kids who drive fancy cars (some even have Ferrari) that often park in front of the club. They don't expect much returns for their invest. Most of them do it for fun, with their spare cash given by their parents. Managment is loose (hence the low profit), and share holders oftens let their friend in for free, and even free drinks. The bulk of the money also goes to police, authorities, rent and the entertainers, which is very expensive. Like Bad Boy Joey, who is playing that night.

I think the question is not with the amount of money made, but with the large difference between the earnings (about 70 million baht) and the relatively low net profit (2 million baht).  In other words, how do the operating expenses of a night club account for about 68 million baht.

EDIT - As Tiggs mentioned, the owners could be paying themselves very high salaries (likely) and dividends to shareholders.

Just so you and Tiggs know, dividends are paid out of net profits, not out of operating income.  

Now, what does the profitability of Santika have to do with this horrible tragedy?

[hamishgillan]

sriracha john, on 2009-01-03 21:23:21, said:

hamishgillan, on 2009-01-03 20:21:58, said:

Shame to see PM Abhisit, an educated man publicly sidestep the important saftey issues such as emergency exits and sprinkers systems by saying that fire crackers should not be bought into clubs, what a cop-out.

sriracha john:Was the fire cracker remark his only discussion of the topic? No.

hamishgillan:so why dont you provide some enlightment rather that a cutting retort mr.bigman

I swear i'm going to shut down my thaivisa account soon and say goodbye to this pathetic heirachy which seems only to dampen your attitude towards the locals who we have to live with, if this nonsense carrys on.

Edited by hamishgillan, 2009-01-04 16:04:13.

[oevna]

Old Man River, on 2009-01-04 00:39:58, said:

...

Now, what does the profitability of Santika have to do with this horrible tragedy?

It is slightly off-topic.  Somebody pointed out the large difference between earnings and net profit, as mentioned in the article that I posted listing the shareholders and annual financial information, and we were just responding to that.  Apologies if it is side-tracking the discussion.

[mrtoad]

Old Man River, on 2009-01-04 15:39:58, said:

Now, what does the profitability of Santika have to do with this horrible tragedy?

If big profits were being put before safety, then people should know.

As it seems, by the figures it wasn't making a lot of money, but one would suspect that there has been a bit of book cooking going on.

[george]

This topic continues here:
http://www.thaivisa....Pr-t233589.html