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[quiksilva]

markg, on 2009-01-06 18:49:01, said:

Guys - dont be too hard on Thailand.
Shutting the door after the horse has bolted? Ok, yep, sure. But to be honest, most of OUR western health and safety rules are in place under precisely those circumstances.
It unfortunately takes a terrible tragedy for people to learn from their mistakes, identify the problems and try to do something about it.
On the face of it, Thailand is doing something. Yeah, it may be too little too late, but at least it appears to be a step in the right direction.
Frankly, it's better then doing nothing isnt it?

You beat me to it. For those that doubt this, I refer you to the Hillsborough Disaster which is a perfect example of tragedies leading to improved safety standards in buildings, in the UK.

[Smithson]

quiksilva, on 2009-01-07 13:03:29, said:

markg, on 2009-01-06 18:49:01, said:

Guys - dont be too hard on Thailand.
Shutting the door after the horse has bolted? Ok, yep, sure. But to be honest, most of OUR western health and safety rules are in place under precisely those circumstances.
It unfortunately takes a terrible tragedy for people to learn from their mistakes, identify the problems and try to do something about it.
On the face of it, Thailand is doing something. Yeah, it may be too little too late, but at least it appears to be a step in the right direction.
Frankly, it's better then doing nothing isnt it?

You beat me to it. For those that doubt this, I refer you to the Hillsborough Disaster which is a perfect example of tragedies leading to improved safety standards in buildings, in the UK.

How long have you been here? There is a long list of fires in Thailand that haven't resulted in major changes. The vast majority of clubs still have only one exit and they will be open tonight. This isn't the UK, safety and prevention are unknown here. You will see more effort put into appeasing spirits than into preventing the next disaster.

When the Phoenix club caught fire last year, lots of ppl on TV saw this much greater disaster happening.

[henryalleman]

Thai Trade Service, on 2009-01-06 13:06:46, said:

markg, on 2009-01-06 18:49:01, said:

Guys - dont be too hard on Thailand.
Shutting the door after the horse has bolted? Ok, yep, sure. But to be honest, most of OUR western health and safety rules are in place under precisely those circumstances.
It unfortunately takes a terrible tragedy for people to learn from their mistakes, identify the problems and try to do something about it.
On the face of it, Thailand is doing something. Yeah, it may be too little too late, but at least it appears to be a step in the right direction.
Frankly, it's better then doing nothing isnt it?

Yes, we had in Volendam - Netherlands, a similar case in .. 2000/01: 14 dead, 180 injured, far over 600 guests, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volendam.
Now, ALL bars, restaurants etc are NOT allowed to have anything burnable inside. Very tight fire prevention. And be sure, government checks it ! 100%. No way to escape.

The same happened on new years evening in an hotel in Antwerp, before strong safety measures where implemented. Even now after almost 15 years not yet all the victims are compensated, some went bankrupt because of there medical bills. And this happened in a so called modern and civilised western country. So don't be too harsh in your comments towards Thailand.


http://www.sp.se/en/...or/default.aspx

[Smithson]

Yes, but Thailand has already had two fires with much higher casualties and is still full of deathtrap buildings.

Unlike the west, this is a fatalistic culture, safety and prevention are non-existing. The roads are ridiculously dangerous as are theme parks like Suan Siam.

[BkkAnimalover]

We are in Thailand so do not expect any radical changes, the new safety rules will follow the Thai Rules and the Thai Way . I listen or read almost every day Harsh critics and comments about the Thai Way and the Thai Style not just for this matter. My point of view is that first of all we are guest so it's not so nice do that , we choose to came year and we are free to go somewhere else , nobody is pointing us a gun to prevent our leave. I love Thailand , Thais and Thai ways too , in a global vision , my personal point of You is that this is best place to stay so I stay here and I'm happy about my choice , I do not understand who live here permanently and almost do not agree or like any thing about this Country. I saw people living here for years spending half of the day to blame Thailand and Thais . Sorry , why You live here if You do not like the life style or the Thai Ways ? I'm not a Thai that complain about foreign criticism I'm a foreigner that do noy understand some foreigners. Probably for this comment I will receive many harsh replay and severe judgment , but this is what I think and I will not change my mind on this point . I respect the others point of You and I hope the others will respect mine.

[markokang]

BkkAnimalover, on 2009-01-07 14:40:47, said:

We are in Thailand so do not expect any radical changes, the new safety rules will follow the Thai Rules and the Thai Way . I listen or read almost every day Harsh critics and comments about the Thai Way and the Thai Style not just for this matter. My point of view is that first of all we are guest so it's not so nice do that , we choose to came year and we are free to go somewhere else , nobody is pointing us a gun to prevent our leave. I love Thailand , Thais and Thai ways too , in a global vision , my personal point of You is that this is best place to stay so I stay here and I'm happy about my choice , I do not understand who live here permanently and almost do not agree or like any thing about this Country. I saw people living here for years spending half of the day to blame Thailand and Thais . Sorry , why You live here if You do not like the life style or the Thai Ways ? I'm not a Thai that complain about foreign criticism I'm a foreigner that do noy understand some foreigners. Probably for this comment I will receive many harsh replay and severe judgment , but this is what I think and I will not change my mind on this point . I respect the others point of You and I hope the others will respect mine.

I think most (not all) people complain about the place they live because it IS: 'The place they live'. For me being here 8 years now I think of it as my home. When I lived in NZ, I criticized the government and other things because it affects MY LIFE. Yes, I love to stay here in Thailand because I love it here, and like having a child you love, you tend to criticize it to make it a better person/place. In this case, the prevention of people dying is quite a serious and VALID thing to criticize. Telling people to "go home" if they don’t like something is nonsense. In this global world, we can all learn from each other, Thai’s can learn about “safety first” and I can learn how to be more “Jai Yen”. I accept my criticisms, not always willingly but most of the people that criticise me are my friends and want me to have a better (and longer) life.
Criticism is not a bad thing as long as its done in the right way. What ‘way’ that is I am not really sure because everyone takes criticism in different ways. But the main point is, I am pretty sure (most) people do it for good reasons.

[Old Man River]

markokang, on 2009-01-07 14:55:51, said:

I think most (not all) people complain about the place they live because it IS: 'The place they live'. For me being here 8 years now I think of it as my home. When I lived in NZ, I criticized the government and other things because it affects MY LIFE. Yes, I love to stay here in Thailand because I love it here, and like having a child you love, you tend to criticize it to make it a better person/place. In this case, the prevention of people dying is quite a serious and VALID thing to criticize.

That pretty much sums up how I feel as well.

[Smithson]

I don't think I'm complaining/criticizing or even being cynical. My opinion comes from over a decade of having lived here, safety just isn't a concern. Look at the all the expensive cars on the road, I've never seen one with a baby seat.

[swillowbee]

Seems the farang community is in broad agreement:

1. Bribes will be offered up [again]; of COURSE!, it's what they know to do best;
2. Of course, no one will be "closed immediately" [as the BMA threatens]; blah, blah, blah, hubba, hubba, hubba; and,
3. Nothing will change; change requires introspection, facing the reality of who you are, and accepting accountability for your actions; Thai culture is incapable of any of those; thus, no change is possible.

Seems the group here proposes a pretty defensible analysis for any logical thinker with years observing Thai behavior. For the newbies who might harbor some Pollyanna-ish delusion of meaningful change, you need to come out of your insulated cocoons and dig a bit deeper into the culture in which you've chosen to live.

The antiquated Thai culture shapes Thai values. Thai values shape Thai behavior. And Thai culture is rife with lying, cheating and stealing.

Jeez, just look at the governments seated here election after election after election. Guess what? Representative government works! Thai elected officials are indeed reflections of the greater Thai population. And they will do only what their Thai culture teaches them.

[Jey]

markg, on 2009-01-06 19:45:43, said:

Guys - dont be too hard on Thailand.
Shutting the door after the horse has bolted? Ok, yep, sure. But to be honest, most of OUR western health and safety rules are in place under precisely those circumstances.
It unfortunately takes a terrible tragedy for people to learn from their mistakes, identify the problems and try to do something about it.
On the face of it, Thailand is doing something. Yeah, it may be too little too late, but at least it appears to be a step in the right direction.
Frankly, it's better then doing nothing isnt it?

yes you are right, I agree with you (guys, is does make it sense or not?)

[GomerPyle]

swillowbee, on 2009-01-07 22:22:40, said:

Seems the farang community is in broad agreement:

1. Bribes will be offered up [again]; of COURSE!, it's what they know to do best;
2. Of course, no one will be "closed immediately" [as the BMA threatens]; blah, blah, blah, hubba, hubba, hubba; and,
3. Nothing will change; change requires introspection, facing the reality of who you are, and accepting accountability for your actions; Thai culture is incapable of any of those; thus, no change is possible.

Seems the group here proposes a pretty defensible analysis for any logical thinker with years observing Thai behavior. For the newbies who might harbor some Pollyanna-ish delusion of meaningful change, you need to come out of your insulated cocoons and dig a bit deeper into the culture in which you've chosen to live.

The antiquated Thai culture shapes Thai values. Thai values shape Thai behavior. And Thai culture is rife with lying, cheating and stealing.

Jeez, just look at the governments seated here election after election after election. Guess what? Representative government works! Thai elected officials are indeed reflections of the greater Thai population. And they will do only what their Thai culture teaches them.

Very true, though very sad.
I couldn't have said it better.
And those who think that Abhisit is going to change things in this country, will be as disappointed as those thinking Obama is going to change things in the US.
Nope can't do.

[samgrowth]

Frankly, the way I see it, is that BMA wants a share in the corruption pie which is now mainly pocket by the police, and maybe, to a smaller extend, the admin court.

What's next? The club owner also have to pay the fire department under the table as well (to get a cert of approval every 3 months), and the local council (any cert of approval every 1 month), ..., etc. The list could go endless.

[atlas_shrugged]

Yes, there's a saying:
"Learn from other people's mistakes. You won't live long enough to make them all yourself."
-Atlas

jamora, on 2009-01-06 19:53:17, said:

True that you have to learn from your mistakes, but the really wise once can learn from the mistakes of others. All of Scandinavia and a lot of Northern Europe learned their lesson in the 1998 disco fire in Goteborg that killed 63. We did not need a fire in each country to tell us something was really wrong, all we had to know is that clubs burn just as well in Denmark as they do in Sweden (or Thailand for that sake). I think Thailand sometimes need to be better at learning from the rest of the world, instead of being "a bit to" nationalistic and self proud. But I truly hope they will learn from this one! Else it will surely happen again!

Jakob

[BkkAnimalover]

markokang, on 2009-01-07 14:55:51, said:

BkkAnimalover, on 2009-01-07 14:40:47, said:

We are in Thailand so do not expect any radical changes, the new safety rules will follow the Thai Rules and the Thai Way . I listen or read almost every day Harsh critics and comments about the Thai Way and the Thai Style not just for this matter. My point of view is that first of all we are guest so it's not so nice do that , we choose to came year and we are free to go somewhere else , nobody is pointing us a gun to prevent our leave. I love Thailand , Thais and Thai ways too , in a global vision , my personal point of You is that this is best place to stay so I stay here and I'm happy about my choice , I do not understand who live here permanently and almost do not agree or like any thing about this Country. I saw people living here for years spending half of the day to blame Thailand and Thais . Sorry , why You live here if You do not like the life style or the Thai Ways ? I'm not a Thai that complain about foreign criticism I'm a foreigner that do noy understand some foreigners. Probably for this comment I will receive many harsh replay and severe judgment , but this is what I think and I will not change my mind on this point . I respect the others point of You and I hope the others will respect mine.

I think most (not all) people complain about the place they live because it IS: 'The place they live'. For me being here 8 years now I think of it as my home. When I lived in NZ, I criticized the government and other things because it affects MY LIFE. Yes, I love to stay here in Thailand because I love it here, and like having a child you love, you tend to criticize it to make it a better person/place. In this case, the prevention of people dying is quite a serious and VALID thing to criticize. Telling people to "go home" if they don't like something is nonsense. In this global world, we can all learn from each other, Thai's can learn about "safety first" and I can learn how to be more "Jai Yen". I accept my criticisms, not always willingly but most of the people that criticise me are my friends and want me to have a better (and longer) life.
Criticism is not a bad thing as long as its done in the right way. What 'way' that is I am not really sure because everyone takes criticism in different ways. But the main point is, I am pretty sure (most) people do it for good reasons.

I'm not telling people to "go home" and I do not use words as nonsense to describe foreigner that use to criticize Thai Ways . I say that this is my personal point of view . If i don't like a place I move from there , I want to live in a place "already as I like" I do not want to go in a place where I have to spend half of my time in a not good mood bcoz of the life style of the locals and I don't want to spend the remaining time trying to change their style and their way of think. I agree on any single word when You write " In this global world, we can all learn from each other, Thai's can learn about "safety first" and I can learn how to be more "Jai Yen". I accept my criticisms, not always willingly but most of the people that criticise me are my friends and want me to have a better (and longer) life.
Criticism is not a bad thing as long as its done in the right way. What 'way' that is I am not really sure because everyone takes criticism in different ways. But the main point is, I am pretty sure (most) people do it for good reasons." But You have to understand that This is our angle to see the world , this is what we learn and what we believe is right . Sometimes even in our western country there are different points of view and angles between groups of citizen of the same country that are talking the same idioma and believe in the same Good . After that try to think which kinds of radicals different point of views we could have with people of a different country, different Continent , different race and not enough also different Religion..... For sure there are some areas where what we see as black ...they see as white ! I do not try to teach the colors to someones that see white what I see black and I also do not say that my angle is the right ones , or is better than the other's angle that is wrong. I think that the best to leave in that place ,having an happy life and avoiding wasting time head aces in this is : do not even think if it's right or wrong , it's good or bad , just think that here is like that and when I say "like that" I mean that here almost all the citizen think like that doesn't matter social category , good level or culture or not, financial status or position . When You say Thai Ways You should already understand the answer . You cannot change it to be americans ways or german ways or england or wherever ways as well You cannot change our ways to match the local way . Thai ways is the same angle adopted from all the Thai from the PM to the security guard of Your parking . What I'm trying to say is that it's only a matter of how You want to live , do You want to live happy and in harmony with the place and the locals ? having fun as much You can ? Follow this old Thai dict ..... "When You go in a new province, if You want to live well and serene getting all the things well done easy You must to learn how the locals blink their eyes " You say that You live here 8 years , trust me it's not yet enough time to have good result trying to understand a so different way to think . I live here more than 15 years , I speak Thai better than English and 99% of my friends are Thai ...well sometimes ( very limited ) I still find myself gettin a bad mood and criticize Thai Way . Following this explanation I include in my mail sometingh that I cosider as good Tips to leave here. Never criticize Thai Way ,Thailand and Thais when a Thai is there. He will not say nothingh , but trust me He will deeply hate You , doesn't matter what You are saying , wrong or right , good or bad , You are a welcome guest that is not entiteled to do that. I repeat trust me even if You disagree or You think that it's impossible and take it also as a simple example of what I'm talking about . Here the criticism of someone talking with other is seen as very unpolite, even in the business . Describe The benefit of Your products could drive You to a purchase order , mention and even demonstrate the week point of the competitor will not , mostly you will simply gonna be seen as Impolite. One more eample a Foreign boss loves the employers that spot out and notice his mistake , foeign angle see this as an help to do better , to improve company's performance and sales....A Thai boss even at the highest management level of local branches of well know international company with an oversea bachelor degree .... Trust me again will not love that or better will deeply hate any employer will do that ! His angle do not see this as an help but see this as a think that made him loose his face ..( one of the highest concern for Thais that could drive to really "big" problem. Ask this to any of Your Thai friends and U will get the same words. Sorry for my long explanation , I do not do that pretending to teach anyone , It's simply the explanation of what I think based on 15 years of Thailand Residence

[Navalator]

The best prevention of the firetraps is for people not to patronize them. The second best prevention is the abolition of corruption. Neither one is going to be realized in Thailand.

Edited by Navalator, 2009-01-22 12:16:05.

[Africanteacher]

Hello!

I have not been following the progress on the findings about the fire at Santika.
What's the outcome?
Who's been charged? Sentenced?

Thanks