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[snuffleupagus]

To all those that are piling on the criticism, what do you propose they do? nothing?  As another poster said, "damned if they do, damned if they don't".

I too am pessimistic that anything will change as a result of this tragedy but at least give them some time to try and rectify the situation.  The fire safety issues aren't going to get fixed overnight but hopefully in the coming months we'll all be pleasantly surprised and start to see some progress.

[MobileContent]

This would mean the hundreds of small guesthouses on Khaosan and Samsen have to all shut down.

[STEELINOX]

Yeah right; the lack of oversight alone will condemn this futile effort to make any places where people amass safe ~ LOL, "lipstick on a pig, anyone ! We've got cherry, pink, gareen, red, purple (500B note) "

Thanks,
Randy

[Scott]

I would propose that they do nothing.  If they do nothing, then we all know that nothing has been done and we can do things at our own risk. When we think and believe that gov'ts do enforce laws and regulations, but in fact they aren't, then we get into real trouble.  

I was in a shopping mall when a fire broke out.  People in restaurants weren't allowed to leave.  They hadn't paid their bills!  There was little assistance or guidance in where to exit.  Lots of guards, but they didn't seem to know what to do.  Fortunately, it was a small electrical fire with only some smoke .  About 15 minutes later they reopened and about 1/2 after that the fire started again.  On the good side, they did have fire alarms and you could hear them.  There were also plenty of exits--including to the parking structure.  

Thailand has had way too many big fires and things never seem to really change.

[shiatsuman]

frogz, on 2009-01-06 19:39:07, said:

It's a disgrace that it takes a tragedy like this for the people incharge to sit up and actually do something.  That night club shouldn't have been operating with no fire exits and so many people.  It seems that the place was an accident waiting to happen.

I like the note, ' ...strong legal action will be taken against the operators or owners even if they are influential persons.'  Nah...I don't think so.  I think they will be allowed to continue to run their deathtraps until the next fatal accident.

but only "little influential "
not "big influencial" nah?

[MEGALITHIC]

Safety in Thailand: A Short Term Mindset                                            

  The fire at the Santika night club was tragic but it reinforces the point that safety standards, in Thailand, are sadly lacking or, in many situations, nonexistent.

  Before going on I’d like to mention that I work in an industry that lives and breathes safety. The thing is though that it wasn’t always this way. Twenty to thirty years ago, workers were being killed, or seriously injured, on a regular basis. After the Piper-Alpha disaster, there was a serious rethink of how things were done and one thing that became apparent was that the mind set, of all involved in the industry, needed to change. The emphasis became one of developing a safety culture where long term thinking was the key to putting sound, reliable safety systems in place. Therein lays the problem for Thailand and the Thai mentality. Thais, by and large, are not long term thinkers. Their tendency, from what I’ve seen from living here for fifteen years, is to always look at the short term gain.

  Care and regard for the safety and welfare of others is not something that can be instilled in people easily whose mindset is one of short term gain. If it’s taken twenty years to get to the point, in the industry I work in, where a culture has developed where you not only continually look for hazards, in the work place, but you also understand that you have a duty of care towards your staff and workmates, what chance is there that there’s going to be a fast change in the mindset of people in this country. The fact is that it’s going to take a very long time, if it even happens at all.

  From the most basic things in life, like driving safely, to the construction of buildings which have/will have a high human traffic flow, the mindset must be one of doing things correctly every time. Sadly, and catastrophically, the lack of that mindset was not in place on New Year’s Eve at the Santika night club. Live flame in a confined area, without adequate controls in place, is never a good idea. I haven’t read anything yet indicating the size of the crowd that was in there but one could almost guarantee that the exit points were completely inadequate for the numbers that were trying to get out. As far as any type of deluge system is concerned, the lack there of was, more than likely, overlooked by the licensing authorities once the correct amount of tea money had been paid.

  For the families of the deceased, and those who suffered injury, unfortunately there’s little likely hood of any real compensation. Compensation would mean that somebody would be held accountable and being accountable, and paying compensation, is something that the Thai ruling elite/business class find distasteful. It actually means that someone made a mistake and, as we all know, being shown to have made a mistake means, god forbid, loss of face.

  And, just as with all the other disasters which occur because of this short term mindset, lessons won’t be learnt and the same mistakes will be repeated. The opportunity to make a fist full of cash will always outweigh the idea of doing something correctly. We will continue to see ferries that are overloaded and capsize in rough seas. We’ll continue to see poorly constructed buildings with no proper fire and emergency exits in place; or exits that are locked because the owners want to prevent thieves from entering. We’ll see waterslides that collapse due to poor, or no, maintenance. We’ll continue to see ridiculously high fatalities on the roads because people won’t obey road rules or learn to drive safely.

  So there it is. To change the way things are, there’s got to be a change in the mindset. A change from ‘How much can I skim off the top’ or ‘what short cuts can I take to be able to make more money’ to one of providing a genuine duty of care to customers/patrons/participants to ensure their complete health and safety in all premises and facilities in this country.

  Don’t hold your breath.

[shiatsuman]

shiatsuman, on 2009-01-06 22:00:56, said:

frogz, on 2009-01-06 19:39:07, said:

It's a disgrace that it takes a tragedy like this for the people incharge to sit up and actually do something.  That night club shouldn't have been operating with no fire exits and so many people.  It seems that the place was an accident waiting to happen.

I like the note, ' ...strong legal action will be taken against the operators or owners even if they are influential persons.'  Nah...I don't think so.  I think they will be allowed to continue to run their deathtraps until the next fatal accident.

but only "little influential "
not "big influencial" nah?

[noelani]

george, on 2009-01-06 17:33:56, said:

BMA boost security measures in buildings after night club fire

Santika Club after the fire on January 1, 2009. Photo: MCOT

BANGKOK: -- Responding to the fire at the Santika Club which left 64 people dead on New Year's Day, the Bangkok Metropolitan Administration (BMA) has set up a committee to inspect and improve the safety of buildings in the Thai capital.

Permanent Secretary of the Bangkok Metropolitan Administration Pongsakti Saemsan said after a meeting with BMA's senior officials that the special committee will inspect security measures of the buildings of cinemas, hotels, department stores, apartments, markets and other structures which can affect lives and property of the public.

The inspection criteria include installation of fire extinguishers, emergency alarms and fire exits.

Mr. Pongsakti said if the committee finds any building to be substandard, it will be closed immediately and strong legal action will be taken against the operators or the owners even if they are influential persons.

The BMA assigned the Disaster Prevention and Mitigation Department to convene a meeting with building owners next week to instruct them on building security measures.

BMA deputy permanent secretary Pongsakti will work with officials of the the capital's district offices to build understanding with the public and to distribute handbooks on safety measures in case of emergency.

-- TNA 2009-01-06

[drbrit]

I am confident the majority of cinemas, department stores, hotels will be in general compliant (at least those more modern structures).   I note that nightclubs was not specifically listed however, and we all know the overwhelming majority will not comply with regulations.

What they should really investigate is the Police.  Because it is they that overlook illegalities, do not provide any enforcement as they are on the regular payroll for allowing this to happen.  Until the Police are held accountable for enforcement, and for failures, nothing will change.

It must be later than I thought. I am dreaming

[carbine1125]

i wonder why all you " farang"  living here in this "dangerous" country don't stop bitching and accept that yeah maybe it is a bit like closing the stable door after the horse has gone but maybe instead think, ok well  maybe some good will come out of the tragedy and stop this happening again! maybe you should go back to your safe expensive big brother controlled countries and live happely ever after. give the Thais a break. if it was not so of the cuff in Thailand you would not be living here in the first place......

[monkfish]

Sure Thailand is a developing country!
But it is also a popular tourist destination and allowed to advertise without restriction on many western TV stations as "Amazing Thailand"
If they wants to keep this privilege, Hotels and Venues such as Night Clubs will be expected to meet the minimum fire safety requirements
The minimum safety requirements I can imagine involve not locking FIRE EXITS.

[carbine1125]

i wonder why all you " farang"  living here in this "dangerous" country don't stop bitching and accept that yeah maybe it is a bit like closing the stable door after the horse has gone but maybe instead think, ok well  maybe some good will come out of the tragedy and stop this happening again! maybe you should go back to your safe expensive big brother controlled countries and live happely ever after. give the Thais a break. if it was not so of the cuff in Thailand you would not be living here in the first place......

hanno, on 2009-01-06 18:40:09, said:

"stable door", "horse" and "bolted" all spring to mind

[gr8fldanielle]

I too think nothing is really going to come of this. It seems that when it comes to making money, anything is fair game. Whether it's driving through neighborhoods blasting a sales pitch at 125 decibels, or blocking a sidewalk with drying t-shirts, or a sidewalk restaurant, or a political sign, or the freaking guy on the train waking people up selling orange juice at 5:30 am. Making money takes precedence and probably always will. Sure you can put in the fire sprinklers and exits to regulation size, but if the exits are locked, it's the same as not having them, if not worse. Over crowding is an issue at these clubs, as well as non-fire-retardant materials that are cheap and easy to use. Most of the deaths at Santika were from breathing toxic fumes and carbon monoxide, not burns. Another note on Santika was that they didn't have any insurance, for they were planning on selling in about 3 moths time, keeniao maak maak.  If taken the right way, this could be a welcomed job opportunity to improve the infrastructure, creating jobs and selling materials. But the real problem is, money. It's worshiped more than any other entity. I don't know if this is going to hurt the clubbing industry or not. I don't go to clubs, so I don't know other than what I hear, and because of what I hear is the reason I don't go. Announcing "crackdowns" does nothing more than advertise a problem, and the lack of action taken in light of these advertisements is laughable, or worthy of compassion in this case. We'll see, but I do think it is the citizens place to keep tabs on the government, otherwise, it's not for the people by the people, it's neither.

[mrtoad]

carbine1125, on 2009-01-06 21:46:58, said:

i wonder why all you " farang"  living here in this "dangerous" country don't stop bitching and accept that yeah maybe it is a bit like closing the stable door after the horse has gone but maybe instead think, ok well  maybe some good will come out of the tragedy and stop this happening again! maybe you should go back to your safe expensive big brother controlled countries and live happely ever after. give the Thais a break. if it was not so of the cuff in Thailand you would not be living here in the first place......

Are you Thai?

[sangfroid]

Bagwan, on 2009-01-06 19:07:37, said:

markg, on 2009-01-06 18:49:01, said:

Frankly, it's better then doing nothing isnt it?

The consensus of opinion thus far seems to be that nothing will be done.

Well if the worst factory fire in history, ie; The Kader toy factory fire at Nakhon Pathom, followed a few years later by 90 people being incinerated in a hotel in Jomthien through sheer negligence, and several other instances, have resulted in bugger all being done, It's highly unlikely that the Santika debacle will have much effect. $$$$$ will rule as usual.

[Johpa]

MobileContent, on 2009-01-06 21:39:00, said:

This would mean the hundreds of small guesthouses on Khaosan and Samsen have to all shut down.

But assuming you then also close down the Pong, Nana Plaza, and Cowboy there will be no ex-pats remaining in the Capitol.

[mrtoad]

Johpa, on 2009-01-06 22:08:37, said:

MobileContent, on 2009-01-06 21:39:00, said:

This would mean the hundreds of small guesthouses on Khaosan and Samsen have to all shut down.

But assuming you then also close down the Pong, Nana Plaza, and Cowboy there will be no ex-pats remaining in the Capitol.

That's a pretty sweeping generalisation.

[simonseze34]

That is just Soooooo....... "Thai"   ....Too Thai in fact .....!  They must always  WAIT ...for something or anything serious to happend before they "Government and the Thai PEOPLE" would start doing something about it !!   ....  The so called..."LAW"  would then be reinforced for ...hummmm ...say...about 3 months ...then .....back to being "THAI" again !!!!  Goshhhhh .....how can you not love being in THAILAND.......I can go on and on and on ......but I won't ....it hurts for being half THAI sometimes.....!!!

[kevinc]

I still dont know what happened to Route 999 owners in Pattaya??   hxxp://stockauditor.co.uk/tuk/0605/999.jpg       or    

hxxp://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Massive-Fire-Route-999-Pattaya-t68456.html

...It was very very similar, 'no license' and as far as i remember it was supposed to be a restaurant 'Only' but was  'full-on' nite-club. Not just Bangkok but as many of you know if your in Pattaya then Lucifers or Marine in Walking street check most of the fire exits (what there is) are reportedly 'pad-locked'. It would be very very difficult to get fire engines through there at any time of day or night.

Attached Files

•  999.jpg   48.6K   9 downloads

[AnthonyR1]

simonseze34, on 2009-01-06 22:20:41, said:

That is just Soooooo....... "Thai"   ....Too Thai in fact .....!  They must always  WAIT ...for something or anything serious to happend before they "Government and the Thai PEOPLE" would start doing something about it !!   ....  The so called..."LAW"  would then be reinforced for ...hummmm ...say...about 3 months ...then .....back to being "THAI" again !!!!  Goshhhhh .....how can you not love being in THAILAND.......I can go on and on and on ......but I won't ....it hurts for being half THAI sometimes.....!!!

...and it will happen again. and we'll all be dumbfounded by it....and then it will happen again....and so on....and so on.....

[Old Man River]

mrtoad, on 2009-01-06 20:15:02, said:

I think it is to early to be judgemental. Yes, we all know that this tragedy could have been avoided if there was proper enforcement of laws, but at least they are trying to look at doing somethihng. It appears to many, that they are dammed if they do, and dammed if they dont.

If the tea money element for officials can b e clamped down on, then there might be some development.

You are right. Some times, maybe not often, changes do occur after a tragedy. You may remember that awful rush hour fuel truck explosion on Petchburi Rd. in 1990. After that laws were changed re-routing fuel trucks.

[Old Man River]

raro, on 2009-01-06 18:22:50, said:

I'd like to report the Nasa Vegas hotel in Klong Tan. Seriously, I had a row with them a while ago over the emergency exit issue. How to report? I mean...with the desired effect?

From the opening article in this thread, it sounds like the right place to complain right now is the BMA's Disaster Prevention and Mitigation Department. Six months from now they may not want to listen, but right now they should be all ears.

[baht&sold]

Thankfully, at least my Bkk condo building is up to standard, exits clear and clearly marked plus auxillary lighting and drills.

Last fire drill was just last month. However, a couple fellow expats complained all the way downstairs and continued to complain outside (drill was well publicised in advance in lifts and in mailboxes). The Thai staff went to lengths, even knocking on doors and instructing reluctant people to evacuate NOW. The grumpy expats appeared hung-over and at least one is commonly known to bash all things Thai,  usually starting with 'Well, back home we'd never do like the these people do" etc, etc, ad nauseam (although he chooses to live here - with ever changing tilacs du jour)

Despite whatever the BMA may hopefully do, or not, those venturing out to clubs, malls (and even within your own condo building) maybe best to make yourself aware of exits and surroundings. For those in Condos, if the exits aren't clear or clearly marked or are locked, bring it up to management or owners or on co-Owner’s committee. If this does nothing, slip a note under every door and get all your neighbors involved (and hopefully your neighbors are less apathetic)

Sincerest condolences to all those whom lost a friend or loved one in this and other entirely preventable travesties, may something possibly good finally come from your tragic and needless loss.

[monkfish]

Good advise!
This doesn't only effect Thais but also us foreigners.
One very good thing I have seen in Thailand, which I have never seen in the UK or Europe are the emergency lights.
What do worry me though are the 100m long corridor's without any breaks or fire doors and no exterior fire exits.

[Miserere]

You wan buy fire extinguisher?

Nice colour red like real one.

I get cheap from China.

Good deal for you Somchai, but one Happy Extinguisher get one Happy free!