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[Chanok]

What are the conditions for the father to obtain shared custody / full custody of a child ???

Scenario;
Father
Let's say the father has no income, but has a substantial amount of money in a Thai bank account.
He's been living in Thailand for a number of years.
He speaks Thai very well.
Lives alone and no relatives in Thailand.
He comes from a country that offers world class education free of charge. However he wish to put the child in an international school in Thailand for a few years to begin with.

Mother
'Unfortunately' mother has a 100k monthly income from her business.
She lives in a large house (rented).
Many relatives but no parents. Some living with her in her house.
She will most likely put the child in a (worthless) public school.
She refuses to let father see the child for several weeks at a time.
When father went abroad for 10 days she moved out of the house. Took everything with her and disappeared...

Of course there are many more details to it, but that's the basics...

Edited by Chanok, 2009-10-22 12:59:03.

[MikeyIdea]

Chanok, the wellbeing of the child is the most important thing by far. Thai Family law puts the child first always

A Thai child has the right to his father and the father has right to his child. How long you've been here, how well you speak Thai and if you live alone or not is not that important. You need to prove that you have well contributed to the childs wellbeing before the mother took the child away (you need receipts too) and you need to prove that you are willing to and can contribute well in the future too. That the father has no income is a bugger, it helps if you can prove that you can well care for the child until adulthood, not only a couple of years.

A Thai child has the right to see her mother and a mother right to see her child too and you will never get sole custody unless mother agrees or has criminal record etc, so I don't think that talking about taking the child abroad in the future is going to be an advantage for you. The international school offering is a good bonus for you

Mother
Nice pay-check, if she can prove the income, then she can easily take care of the child. What she most likely will do in the future is irrelevant.

You need to check with a lawyer (specializing in custody cases) but from the one I have talked to and what I have heard about this, you should be able to get shared custody, you just need to prove what you have done in the past and that you want to, can and will do the same in the future.

"She refuses to let father see the child for several weeks at a time" - If the child is not legimized, then the law allows her to do that

Edited by MikeyIdea, 2009-10-22 14:10:21.

[Chanok]

MikeyIdea, on 2009-10-22 14:02:46, said:

"She refuses to let father see the child for several weeks at a time" - If the child is not legimized, then the law allows her to do that

That's the whole point by going to court isn't it?!

Interesting though that if she has (or will have) a criminal record I'll be able to obtain full custody.

[Mario2008]

Chanok, on 2009-10-22 16:21:28, said:

MikeyIdea, on 2009-10-22 14:02:46, said:

"She refuses to let father see the child for several weeks at a time" - If the child is not legimized, then the law allows her to do that

That's the whole point by going to court isn't it?!

Interesting though that if she has (or will have) a criminal record I'll be able to obtain full custody.

A criminal record does not automtically leads to her being unfit to raise a child. The nature of the offense and how long ago will also play a role.

[UnEnlightened]

Ok, here is a 'hypothetical' question.  Suppose you were to physically register the documents with the Amphur yourself thereby ensuring your name appears twice on the birth certificate.  After reading this entire thread it seems that this is all that is required to legitimise your new born.  As far as I understand it, this automatically entitles you to joint custody so long as the mother cooperates.

Now, if you were to return to your home country with your child but without the mothers knowledge or consent, have you broken any thai law?  If you re-enter the country without the child, can you be arrested for anything?

[Mario2008]

UnEnlightened, on 2009-11-03 18:43:47, said:

Ok, here is a 'hypothetical' question. Suppose you were to physically register the documents with the Amphur yourself thereby ensuring your name appears twice on the birth certificate. After reading this entire thread it seems that this is all that is required to legitimise your new born. As far as I understand it, this automatically entitles you to joint custody so long as the mother cooperates.

Now, if you were to return to your home country with your child but without the mothers knowledge or consent, have you broken any thai law? If you re-enter the country without the child, can you be arrested for anything?

No, Thailand has no laws against parental abduction. But you would take matters in your own hand, which judges don't like and you could face a custody battle in the country you are leaving to. It is normaly not in the interest of the child to be held from one parent and can have serious effects on the welbeing of the child.
Nor can it be guarenteed that you will face charges in the country you are leaving to.

If a Thai judge in the meantime would issue sole custody to the mother, you could probably be arrested when re-entering the country.

[elektrified]

Mario2008, on 2009-10-04 21:36:47, said:

elektrified, on 2009-10-04 16:19:02, said:

Thanks for the quick response Mario. I am listed as the father. As far as I can tell, the mother is listed as the one registering the birth. (She signed it.)

Unfortunately you didn't leaglise the child, so now your only option is to petition the court to be recognised as the father. if the motehr doesn't contest that shouldn't be hard. if you plan to marry the mother in the near future, that would automatically legitimise the child under Thai law.

Hi Mario,

Is it possible to "amend" the birth certificate so I can legitimize my child? Can we just request another be issued? Is there a stipulation between the parents or something?

We have of course already added the boy to the mother's tabien baan.

I just can't believe that they don't mention this "little" technicality when you obtain the child's birth certificate. I can't believe that I should have perused TV for legalities before doing something as simple as getting the child his birth certificate. My girlfriend said they never said a word about it when we were there.

Going to court seems ridiculous when there is no dispute.

Will this in any way cause a problem when we go to the U.S. Consulate in Chiang Mai to get the boy his U.S. Citizenship?

Thanks in advance.

[elektrified]

Hi again Mario,

As a follow up to my earlier post, if amending the birth certificate is not possible, how do we get this paper that is spoken about in this thread called certificate of fathership (bai rapp long bott)? Where do we go to get it? I do not want to deal with lawyers, courts and the like to sort this out. My girlfriend will do all the legwork involved. Is it a form that can be obtained somewhere?

Thanks again for your advice.

[Mario2008]

When not done at birth, the legitimisation of the child can at a later date be done at the amphur if the mother and child declare that you are the father. But this can only be done when the child is atleast about 7 years old. If not, than the only option is to petition the court to be recognised as the father and legitimise the child. If the mother agrees to this it should not take that long, but there is no other way.

If it will be a problem towards US-citizenship of the child I don't know, it would depend on US law. People have no problem for instance requiring British nationality in cases like yours. Best inquire with the embassy or consulate staff.

[Chanok]

I've now talked to two different lawyers in two different firms.

A said that the child's mother has automatically full custody and B said that the father and mother share custody automatically.

A said that custody is almost never granted to the (foreign) father when going to court. B said that father can go ahead, if mother refuses to let
father see the child, and make a complaint and the court will rule that mother has to let father see the child.

BOTH A and B looked like I was an alien when I confronted them with the issue that Father must be on the BC twice. It was as if they didn't have a clue
what I was talking about when I tried to get that clarified.  ?????????

B said Thailand doesn't have any parental child abduction law.

B also said that going to court will cost 80.000,- THB in starting fees. The initial letter to the mother asking her to sign a child custody agreement is +10.000,- THB.

WTF is going on here???????????????????????
The lawyers are just as confused as TV and it's contradicting advices from more and less enlightened members.

[Mario2008]

Chanok, on 2009-11-11 17:56:25, said:

I've now talked to two different lawyers in two different firms.

A said that the child's mother has automatically full custody and B said that the father and mother share custody automatically.
The mother has sole custody, unless the father legitimises the child at birth.

A said that custody is almost never granted to the (foreign) father when going to court. B said that father can go ahead, if mother refuses to let father see the child, and make a complaint and the court will rule that mother has to let father see the child.
Many mebers have expierenced that the Thai courts are not biassed and will decide in the interest of the child.

BOTH A and B looked like I was an alien when I confronted them with the issue that Father must be on the BC twice. It was as if they didn't have a clue what I was talking about when I tried to get that clarified. ?????????
If you legitimise the child at birth, you can also legitimse the child later. But in that case you don't have automatic joined custody with the mother.

B said Thailand doesn't have any parental child abduction law.
That is correct.

B also said that going to court will cost 80.000,- THB in starting fees. The initial letter to the mother asking her to sign a child custody agreement is +10.000,- THB.
That depends also on the lawyers fee.

WTF is going on here???????????????????????
The lawyers are just as confused as TV and it's contradicting advices from more and less enlightened members.

My answers in blue.

Note that family law is a specialised area. You don't go to a lawyer specialised in labour law to get advice about criminal law. Make sure the lawyer you hire knows the relevant part of law. Another lawyer at the firm might be more specialised in that area.

[MikeyIdea]

What Mario2008 says is correct, I confirmed it with lawyer specializing in custody cases (or maybe it's more I confirmed the knowledge of the lawyer specializing in custody cases I contacted , anyway both say the same thing). WTF is going on is simple; Neither of the lawyers you contacted normally work in this area

One important thing to point out
The mother has sole custody, unless the father legitimises the child at birth, Mario writes

AT BIRTH… Those 2 words deserve capital letters. If you legitimize the child at a later stage (like I did), then you are the legal father but you do NOT (yet) have shared custody. That's a separate process

Edited by MikeyIdea, 2009-11-12 15:13:29.

[Chanok]

When going to court the judge will ask you about your income, right?
They question is what kind of prove of income will the court ask for?
And what if the income is from overseas, but I'm not doing any work here? Will they double check with my embassy?

If I have no steady income(not working), other than what ever money my family send me once and a while when I ask them for it, what will my chances be of 50% custody of my child?
Can I prove those money transfers to my Thai bank account?

[Mario2008]

Chanok, on 2009-11-21 15:15:09, said:

When going to court the judge will ask you about your income, right?
They question is what kind of prove of income will the court ask for?
And what if the income is from overseas, but I'm not doing any work here? Will they double check with my embassy?

If I have no steady income(not working), other than what ever money my family send me once and a while when I ask them for it, what will my chances be of 50% custody of my child?
Can I prove those money transfers to my Thai bank account?

That is difficult to answer and you better ask a lawyer. What do you want, sole or joned costudy? It will make a huge difference if you want sole costudy or joined costudy and if the mother agrees or not.

[MikeyIdea]

It isn't too difficult to get shared custody 50/50 in Thailand. Sole custody is a totally different ball game

You need to prove that you have taken care of your child in the past, both practically and economically
Practically – You should be actively involved in her upbringing (as in taking her to school, teaching her homework, whatever depending on age)
Economically - It is not at all required that you are the sole contributor to the economy in the family for you to get shared 50/50 custody BUT; You need proof that you are contributing well, keep all hospital bills, school fee bills and all receipts.

And
You need to prove that you intend to do the same in the future.

The law is a bit different in Thailand. You have to earn the right to get custody as a father (unless you did it at birth). I assume that you have earned the right to get custody practically and intend to do the same in the future, so the practical side won’t be an obstacle at all. Only money left

The father of a friend of my daughter is going through a court process right now (Thai-Thai custody case). He is rich playboy style Thai and haven’t shown any income in his life. The father has been told by his lawyer to gather evidence. He has been out requesting new receipts from school, bills from psychiatrists at Samitivej etc. His lawyer does not bring the fact that he has never had any income up as a big issue, but he has 2 other things instead; 1) evidence through witnesses that he has been the only one contributing economically in the past and 2) receipts showing that he actually did pay some 40,000 bath per month for the kids the last couple of months before the mother took the children away and refused to let the father see them.

What about your case? Don’t know… You didn’t write if the mother will contest you getting 50/50 custody or not. I don’t know who the child is with now and how long the separation has been. You will easily get 50/50 custody if the mother does not contest of course. Always remember that Thai law puts the wellbeing of the child very much at the centre of things (more so than western courts). You need a lawyers advice but I would think that if you can prove that you have cared well practically and economically in the past and you can prove your past money transfers, then you should get 50/50 custody.

You can get print-outs from your bank of all movement in and out from your bank account, don’t know how far back. I can’t see a Thai court contacting your embassy in this case

[thaitwintots]

Had a baby at Samitivej about 12 days ago with my Thai girlfriend and, having read only the first page of this topic, mistakenly thought I understood the process of registering the birth with the Amphur to be sure of parental rights. Only now that I've read the rest of the posts on here have I realized that I'm only listed once on the birth certificate - which means he's already been registered?? It was a confusing conversation with the hospital in explaining my request of wanting to register the birth myself. They apparently thought I only wanted to register the kid with the mother's family's "tabien baan?" They actually misspelled his name in Thai - and since it's still less than 15 days since his birth, I'm going to return to the hospital and address these issues with them today (Thursday.) What are the chances of success in actually registering him myself this time? Strange how ignorant these hospitals seem to be regarding their clients' parental rights. I need to get this resolved today - would appreciate any assistance any of you might have. Thanks.

[mjperry]

That stupid woman who deals with the amphur registrations at Samitivej knows exactly what you were trying to do, she just doesn't seem very happy in her job and just does whatever is easiest for her. When my son was born there almost 2 months ago now I knew exactly what I needed to do from the info on here luckily. She played dumb at first but I went with her to the amphur and registered our son myself at the district office on Thong Lor, after it was done and I explained to her what i was doing to get my name shown twice on the birth certificate she said she knew what i was doing which was very annoying.

Not sure you can do anything at the amphur now your son's already registered, from the advice given out here, it seems you will have to go the legal route with lawyers and courts. But I will let others more knowledgeable about that reply in more detail.

Martin

thaitwintots, on 2009-11-25 23:45:06, said:

Had a baby at Samitivej about 12 days ago with my Thai girlfriend and, having read only the first page of this topic, mistakenly thought I understood the process of registering the birth with the Amphur to be sure of parental rights. Only now that I've read the rest of the posts on here have I realized that I'm only listed once on the birth certificate - which means he's already been registered?? It was a confusing conversation with the hospital in explaining my request of wanting to register the birth myself. They apparently thought I only wanted to register the kid with the mother's family's "tabien baan?" They actually misspelled his name in Thai - and since it's still less than 15 days since his birth, I'm going to return to the hospital and address these issues with them today (Thursday.) What are the chances of success in actually registering him myself this time? Strange how ignorant these hospitals seem to be regarding their clients' parental rights. I need to get this resolved today - would appreciate any assistance any of you might have. Please feel free to ring/text me directly if possible. Thanks!

[thaitwintots]

mjperry, on 2009-11-25 09:55:44, said:

That stupid woman who deals with the amphur registrations at Samitivej...

...appears to be Mrs. Wannasri Chaikesorn. Her name is in the "Birth Informant" section on the birth certificate. Thanks for the reply - will talk with her as soon as they open and hope for the best.

[Mario2008]

Unfortunately it means that you didn't legitimize the child as you didn't register the birth yourself. I would definitely complain about this to the hospital.

I don't think you can correct this problem and now will have to go to court to legitimize the child. This will cost you and you will also have to file for joined custody. But it shouldn't be a problem, as the mother will support your claim. In your case it will be more or less a formality. (Another way of legitimization is by marrying the mother, so if you have plans to get married in the near future you might want to consider not to go to court but to wit till you get married).

The misspelling is serious and must be addressed as soon as possible. It shouldn't be a problem, but might take some paperwork and time.

[thaitwintots]

Voila! It took serious determination, but managed to get new documents issued with my son's correct name and me listed as the birth informant. Encountered "mai dai" at practically every step of the process, first at the hospital and then at the Amphur, but knew it would be more difficult later if not sorted now. Woman at the Amphur requested a letter from the hospital director before she'd consider the change, but was able to acquire such a thing the next day. Not sure whether it was the hospital or Amphur who was truly against the idea of the father being listed as birth informant, or both - but seems at least one of the two dislikes enabling foreigners to be legally responsible for Thai children. Definitely my opinion though, as there could be other explanations for the complications. The woman at the Amphur asked a few personal questions after she was being convinced into making the change - things like where I work, where I plan to live, if I'm going to be leaving the country with the child - felt a bit like I was being interviewed for the job of being a real dad. For anyone going into a similar situation - being clear that you want to be listed TWICE on the birth certificate is the key (as father AND birth informant), which is performed WHILE the birth certificate is initially issued at the Amphur. I'm glad to provide a scan of a birth certificate that can be shown to clarify such a request. Good luck and thanks!

Edited by thaitwintots, 2009-11-27 12:27:39.

[Mario2008]

Great you where able to sort it out and they were willing to help you. Well done and congratulations you don't have to go to a whole procedure to get it sorted.

[Mario2008]

Sad to say, but it now seems that registering the birth of the child as the father is not enough to legitimise a child. See topic running here:

http://www.thaivisa....dy-t327932.html

[ahmed_naji]

Mario2008, on 2009-04-28 17:00:17, said:

StaffsShot, on 2009-04-28 08:13:16, said:

I`m only finding out now that when registering the babys` birth at the amphur the father must be named, unlike UK where it can be left blank.

My girlfriend gave birth in January to our son and as I couldn`t be there her Uncle is named as the father. i`ve met him and his family several times and am amazed he can be named as the father, just for the purpose of paperworks. He lives in Chonburi, my girlfriend in Korat.

Is it true I only needed to send a copy of my passport to her to register me as the father ?

She told me the names can be changed later, when I return on my next trip. Is this correct ?

Correct, any male can be named as the father on the BC. Your girlfirend should have named you on the BC, that she didn't will make things much more complicated.

You didn't recognized the child as yours (legalise it) and now you are in trouble getting this rectified. On the Thai side you ight be able to get it recitified if you marry the mother or when the child turns about 7 years old and can testify that you are his father. I would recommend consulting a lwayer, as you are not named on the BC. That might complicate things. I suggest contacting forum sponsor isaan lawyers, you find them at the top of this page.

Also for registering the child as yours with your own country you might be in trouble, as you are not named on the BC. Contact your embassy about what to do.

I just want to add something, I was in the same situation as you are right now, so in order for you to register your name on the birth certificate as a father, first you need to do paternity test (DNA test) to prove that you are a father, that will be done in particular Hospital in Bangkok that approved by ministry of health. After getting the result, then you have to go to the place that the birth certificate was issued and explain to them, show them your test result and they will rectify the matter. This is my experience when I was in your situation.  [/b][/b]

[Mattd]

Interesting topic and one that affects a lot of expats here in Thailand!

In my particular case my first son was born prematurely, the original plan was to marry before he was born, but this changed that idea!
My name is on the birth certificate once as father only (the hospital did not give me any choice regarding the registration of the birth and I did not know any different).
We married 6 weeks after he was born.
My second son was born in wedlock, the registration process however was the same as the first time, i.e. all handled by the hospital and my name on the birth certificate as father only.
Both have Thai and British passports, the first son being a lot more difficult to get the British one due to the marriage situation at the time of his birth!

So question is, as we were not actually married at the date of the first son's birth, then do I need to 'legalize' him now (he is 10) even though we married shortly after?
I'm presuming the second son is not a problem, as we were married when he was born.

As a footnote, I've never had any problems with the Thai authorities with regards to signing things as the father with the first son (Passport application etc.)

[Mario2008]

Don't worry. You have legitimized your first child automatically when you married the mother. That is one of the methods mentioned in the law to legitimize a child born out of wedlock.