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[toptuan]

Navy chief denied all accusations of mistreatment.  Of course.  Case settled.  

[Jingthing]

Yes, the officer denied it so obviously it will NEVER happen again.
By IT I mean farangs will never be witnesses again.

[mrtoad]

Disgusting, but no surprise considering they have been getting away with stuff like this for years. Always gets brushed under the carpet to, which really is condoning these sort of practices.  

[TAWP]

younghusband, on 2009-01-17 20:10:36, said:

TAWP, on 2009-01-17 16:01:55, said:

Pierrot, on 2009-01-17 13:12:13, said:

Duangta, on 2009-01-17 13:07:21, said:

The current Democrat-led coalition was stitched together last month thanks to the intervention of the powerful army commander General Anupong Paochinda - he may well resist any calls for his men to be brought to justice over these allegations, as his predecessors have.

But it is also worth remembering that under the most recent constitution the most senior commander of ISOC is, in fact, the Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva.

I look forward to see these two guys in court, the two last PM were kicked out for less than that. But somehow I've the feeling that it won't happen anytime soon. It seems that since they don't need anymore their moral high ground, they have store it together with all the nice stories the yellow people fed us with when they were having their great party on our expenses.

Waa-waa-waa-waa...as if the current PM has any influence on how badly the Navy or Army treats immigrants...it has always been deplorable and it should be corrected.


But I'm sure you have made many posts in the past on how bad the treatment was of the immigrants under Thaksin and how he should be responsible for it...

What are you talking about? The PM has responsibility for the armed forces.The naval spokesman has lied on this matter.We await developments.

The new PM is to blame for what the Navy do, even if he has only been in power for 5 minutes, the previous implied...

Isn't political bias fun?


Tell me how many posts you two guys have written regarding the responsibility from the previous PMs?
Or do you think this have never happened before?

[Rinrada]

TAWP, on 2009-01-17 03:01:55, said:

Pierrot, on 2009-01-17 13:12:13, said:

Duangta, on 2009-01-17 13:07:21, said:

The current Democrat-led coalition was stitched together last month thanks to the intervention of the powerful army commander General Anupong Paochinda - he may well resist any calls for his men to be brought to justice over these allegations, as his predecessors have.

But it is also worth remembering that under the most recent constitution the most senior commander of ISOC is, in fact, the Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva.

I look forward to see these two guys in court, the two last PM were kicked out for less than that. But somehow I've the feeling that it won't happen anytime soon. It seems that since they don't need anymore their moral high ground, they have store it together with all the nice stories the yellow people fed us with when they were having their great party on our expenses.

Waa-waa-waa-waa...as if the current PM has any influence on how badly the Navy or Army treats immigrants...it has always been deplorable and it should be corrected.


But I'm sure you have made many posts in the past on how bad the treatment was of the immigrants under Thaksin and how he should be responsible for it...

of course he has......after all he was born a FREE and principaled...ENGLISHMAN........Eton and Oxford chap..you ken....

by gawd....splendid bod......right..... harrup....

[Jingthing]

It is not reasonable to expect a new PM could have stopped this from happening. I doubt the Thai military phones the PM ever time  they find some illegals. It is reasonable to expect a new PM to do something about it. I don't have high hopes that any action will be taken to investigate the incidents and  punish the offenders if they are guilty, or change the policy so this stops happening. Sad really. What is needed is INTERNATIONAL PRESSURE.

Edited by Jingthing, 2009-01-17 23:20:22.

[dumball]

What is that expression akin to this scenariio ?

  You can take the Thai out of Thailand , but you cannot take Thailand out of the Thai .

Many nationalities move to another country because the laws or religious traits are not to thier liking , then in thier adopted country they teach thier off-spring all the S###T they abhored in the land of thier birth . Strange but very true I am afraid .

[wasabi]

Thailand is a poor third world country what are they supposed to do give them room and board? I don't think these refugees should be abused at all but sending them back where they came from does not seem unreasonable.

[Jingthing]

wasabi, on 2009-01-18 00:36:50, said:

Thailand is a poor third world country what are they supposed to do give them room and board? I don't think these refugees should be abused at all but sending them back where they came from does not seem unreasonable.

Sending them out to die without food, water, only paddles? Third world, schmird world, the question really is civilized or barbarian.
That is the way you treat people who you don't think are people. Soi dogs are treated better. There is NO excuse! None. Ever.

Edited by Jingthing, 2009-01-18 01:02:50.

[saneroad]

Bangkok Post finally giving the issue proper coverage.

This morning's report:

Alleged abuse of refugees probed

THAI MILITARY ACCUSED OF ROLE IN DEATHS
OF HUNDREDS OF BURMESE BOAT PEOPLE
    By: Larry Jagan and staff reporters
    Published: 18/01/2009 at 12:00 AM
    Newspaper section: News

The Foreign Ministry said on Saturday it was investigating the pushing of Burmese boat people out to sea by the Thai military, which human rights advocates and survivors say contributed to the deaths of hundreds of men.

The ministry said it was "investigating and verifying all the facts and surrounding circumstances".

But it added that while protecting the country's sea borders from illegal activities, including illegal immigration, "we are committed to maintaining our traditional adherence to humanitarian principles and the protection of human rights".

The United Nations refugee agency said it was concerned about the reports and urged the government to investigate.

"We request the Thai government take all measures necessary to ensure that the lives of Rohingya are not at risk and they are treated in accordance with humanitarian standards," Kitty McKinsey, a spokeswoman for the UN High Commissioner for Refugees, said.

Local human rights groups who have interviewed survivors, say Rohingya refugees from Burma were held on the remote Koh Sai Daeng off southern Thailand in December, forced back on boats with their hands bound and set adrift with little food and water.

The promised investigation came as survivors and representatives of the Rohingyas, a Muslim minority, claimed yesterday that a further 200 refugees are missing and feared dead after being taken out to sea by Thai authorities and set adrift over the New Year.

There are also fears for 46 Burmese refugee-seekers who were taken into custody by Thai authorities on Friday. A boat carrying the Rohingyas was intercepted off an island in southern Thailand. They were handed over to the local military authorities, according to a source in the area. Local villagers were discouraged from approaching them, he said.

Full story: http://www.bangkokpo...refugees-probed

[LivinLOS]

wasabi, on 2009-01-18 00:36:50, said:

Thailand is a poor third world country what are they supposed to do give them room and board? I don't think these refugees should be abused at all but sending them back where they came from does not seem unreasonable.

No sending them back where they came from, and even harsh conditions while detained, wouldnt be cause for much comment given the 3rd world status Thailand seems to want to remain..

However 'tieing thier feet and throwing them in the sea' or dragging them to international waters and casting them adrift with a day or twos food and water is premeditated 'attempted murder' and the amount of them (800 in Dec alone claimed) borders on genocide !!

[ophelia]

A couple of years back, on a small island near Ranong, I also witnessed the Thai Military carry out an operation, similar to this one.  A boat of refugees had been nabbed off shore, and brought to the beach on the island.  The refugees, wearing only their lungis, and carrying nothing else, were herded off the boat, and, at gunpoint, made to kneel on the beach with their hands behind their heads.  The military personnel were being quite rough with the refugees, cuffing them about the head and shoulders.  They did give the refugees water, and administered a pill to each, (I was told it was something to combat the dehydration) and then moved in some big navy ships  and moved all the now-prisoners to the larger vessels.  They towed the boat these poor men had been in to another beach further south on the island, where it remained abandoned for a few weeks.  
I was outraged when I saw what was going on.  To my horror, no one else (Thais or farang) seemed to be.  The local Thais had nothing good to say about the Burmese people, nothing good to say about muslims, and defended the military for 'getting' them and sending them back.  Let's hope that's what they did, god knows what would have happened to these men and boys. The other farang around, were very busily and earnestly attempting to get me to shush, in case I caused myself some grief by interfering.  Not likely.  I wanted to, but approaching an angry man with a large weapon isn't amongst my plans for a simple life.  I shouted out "Hey" or "We see that"  each time they laid hands on the refugees, but more than that wasn't possible.  While I don't think I endeared myself to the military dudes, the only reaction by them to my shout protest was laughter.  They knew I was powerless to do anything about what they were up to, and they seemed to find it very amusing.  It was all very disturbing.
I share this story only to confirm that this sort of thing has been going on for some time.
I was told afterwards that I was lucky I didn't get arrested myself.  heh.  sure, arrest the granny, for shouting.  heroes.

[tartempion]

Pierrot, on 2009-01-16 10:14:33, said:

Honestly, what is worse? The attitude of the Thai army or the quasi absence of reaction of the tourists sunbathing a few meters away ?

Seriousely?

Didn't you read tourist were being harassed by Thai army when taking pics: Others who were shocked by the treatment of the men and tried to photograph the incident had their cameras snatched away by angry guards, who deleted the images. (From Phuketwan)

Also sea previous post, would you really intervene against a group of military pointing guns at you when you try to approach them and their victims?

Edited by tartempion, 2009-01-18 13:19:05.

[Pierrot]

Rinrada, on 2009-01-18 00:14:55, said:

TAWP, on 2009-01-17 03:01:55, said:

Pierrot, on 2009-01-17 13:12:13, said:

Duangta, on 2009-01-17 13:07:21, said:

The current Democrat-led coalition was stitched together last month thanks to the intervention of the powerful army commander General Anupong Paochinda - he may well resist any calls for his men to be brought to justice over these allegations, as his predecessors have.

But it is also worth remembering that under the most recent constitution the most senior commander of ISOC is, in fact, the Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva.

I look forward to see these two guys in court, the two last PM were kicked out for less than that. But somehow I've the feeling that it won't happen anytime soon. It seems that since they don't need anymore their moral high ground, they have store it together with all the nice stories the yellow people fed us with when they were having their great party on our expenses.

Waa-waa-waa-waa...as if the current PM has any influence on how badly the Navy or Army treats immigrants...it has always been deplorable and it should be corrected.


But I'm sure you have made many posts in the past on how bad the treatment was of the immigrants under Thaksin and how he should be responsible for it...

of course he has......after all he was born a FREE and principaled...ENGLISHMAN........Eton and Oxford chap..you ken....

by gawd....splendid bod......right..... harrup....

Sorry mate, but I was born on the other side of the channel .

[wasabi]

I definitely do not think the illegal immigrants should be chained or hurt but I also don't think Thailand has the money to give these people enough food and water to get back where they came from. Nor to house and care for them in Thailand. If Thailand did don't you think they would give it to the people in Issaan first? I feel sorry for these people but I also don't know how much responsibility Thailand can take for them.

[Pierrot]

First page of the Sunday Post (HK) :

Hundreds dead, set adrift by Thais

The SCMP reported that the Thai army  had institued a policy  of hiding refugees on an island before setting them adrift in international water.

"In search of a better life, they found brutality and death"

There are also pictures of tourists playing and sunbathing near the refugees.

Tartempion asks "would you really intervene against a group of military pointing guns at you when you try to approach them and their victims?". Good question.

Edited by Pierrot, 2009-01-18 14:28:18.

[skooldaze]

SNGLIFE, on 2009-01-16 06:49:45, said:

Reprehensible and disgusting.  Sadly, the behavior is not surprising to those of us who have been in LOS for a while...

Even sadder is the knowledge that there will be NO accountability.

This is Thailand and life is cheap. Hooray for Thailand! Too bad they didn't make the leap from Homo Erectus to Homo Sapiens

[skooldaze]

Jingthing, on 2009-01-18 01:01:52, said:

wasabi, on 2009-01-18 00:36:50, said:

Thailand is a poor third world country what are they supposed to do give them room and board? I don't think these refugees should be abused at all but sending them back where they came from does not seem unreasonable.

Sending them out to die without food, water, only paddles? Third world, schmird world, the question really is civilized or barbarian.
That is the way you treat people who you don't think are people. Soi dogs are treated better. There is NO excuse! None. Ever.

Oh I almost forgot. This is a buddhist country that puts a premium on life, no killing, no eating meat... oh whoops. Where am I again? .... hel_l.

Edited by skooldaze, 2009-01-18 14:56:24.

[misterman21]

skooldaze, on 2009-01-18 14:40:23, said:

Jingthing, on 2009-01-18 01:01:52, said:

wasabi, on 2009-01-18 00:36:50, said:

Thailand is a poor third world country what are they supposed to do give them room and board? I don't think these refugees should be abused at all but sending them back where they came from does not seem unreasonable.

Sending them out to die without food, water, only paddles? Third world, schmird world, the question really is civilized or barbarian.
That is the way you treat people who you don't think are people. Soi dogs are treated better. There is NO excuse! None. Ever.

Oh I almost forgot. This is a buddhist country that puts a premium on life, no killing, no eating meat... oh whoops. Where am I again? hel_l

Obviously these people are at such a low level of consciousness (sub-human) that they understand little of the Bhuddist mythology.  Only that in the event of evil deeds a little merit making fixes things!

[Scott]

Previous refugee crisis have benefitted Thailand.  Do you think the Thais or Thai gov't paid for their housing?  This was paid by the UN and Western gov'ts.  There were hundreds if not thousands of NGO, UN and gov't workers here to assist in education, screening, resettling etc.  The minute the money isn't forthcoming, the mistreatment starts and these people end up home.  

Worked with refugees here before, so I have some knowledge of their treatment.

[Journalist]

This is developing into a big story outside of Thailand.

Pick-up by the New York Times...



January 18, 2009  
Thailand Is Accused of Rejecting Migrants
  By SETH MYDANS            BANGKOK — In the past month, the Thai authorities have detained as many as 1,000 boat people from Bangladesh and Myanmar and sent them back out to sea in boats without engines, human rights groups say. At least 300 people are reported to be missing at sea.

  The migrants are members of the ethnic Rohingya minority, mostly stateless people who live in a cycle of poverty, repression, escape, capture and exploitation.

  The expulsions reverse a policy in which Thailand has allowed thousands of Rohingya to land in recent years, mostly on their way to seek work in Malaysia. In many cases those migrants are turned over to human traffickers.

  Thailand denies the expulsions, saying that all arrivals are processed via legal channels.

  The reports coincide with separate criticism that Thailand has committed human rights abuses in combating a Muslim insurgency in the south. They recall past episodes in which the Thai military has forced out groups of refugees, sometimes to their deaths.

  In one case last month, the reports say, 410 Rohingya migrants were taken out to sea on a Thai Navy vessel and forced onto an open barge with just four barrels of water and two sacks of rice.

  Four people were thrown overboard with their hands and feet tied as a way to encourage the others to board the barge, according to the reports.

  After drifting for two weeks, about 100 of the migrants were rescued on the Andaman Islands, which are administered by India. About 300 remain missing after trying to swim to shore, according to several reports from the news media and human rights groups.

  In a second case soon afterward, 580 people were reportedly seized off the Thai coast on three overcrowded fishing boats. These were towed back out to sea after their engines were removed, said Chris Lewa, an expert on Rohingya issues who runs a private human rights group called the Arakan Project.

  Two of those boats reached shore — at Aceh in Indonesia and on the Andaman Islands — and one is missing, she said.

  She said a new boatload of 46 migrants arrived Friday on Patong Island, off Thailand’s southern coast, and they were seized by the Thai military, which until recently had not been involved in local immigration issues.

  The expulsions were reported last week in the South China Morning Post in Hong Kong. Thai officials denied Friday that any such expulsions had occurred.

  “We never push them back to the sea,” said one of the officials, Lt. Col. Tara Soranarak, an inspector for the immigration office in Ranong Province. “We have our procedure to deport back the migrants to their home country after processing them through the Thai legal system.”

Privately, Thai officials voiced concern about the Rohingya as Muslims who might join a rebellion in southern Thailand involving people who are seeking a separate Islamic state. Last week, Amnesty International issued a report condemning Thailand as “systematically engaging in torture” against the insurgency.

The reports of harsh treatment come in the context of a huge flow of refugees from neighboring countries in the past three decades that has imposed a social and economic burden on Thailand. Since the mid-1970s, Thailand has been a refuge for millions fleeing conflict and repression in Cambodia, Vietnam, Myanmar and Laos.

  “Thailand is surrounded by dangerous neighbors who have generated huge refugee flows, and it has sometimes felt overwhelmed by these flows,” said Kenneth Bacon, president of the human rights group Refugees International. “Its record in handling them is mixed.”

  In the most notorious episode, in 1979, 42,000 Cambodian refugees fleeing the murderous Khmer Rouge were forced back down a cliff into a minefield by the Thai military. Survivors said many of them died.

  During the same period, Vietnamese boat people were victimized by Thai pirates operating without official restraint.

  Although tens of thousands of refugees now live in semipermanent camps along the Thai border with Myanmar, some of them are periodically forced back against their will. Last summer Human Rights Watch protested the forcible repatriation of a group of ethnic Karen refugees who had fled military brutality in Myanmar, formerly Burma.

  The Rohingya are among the most helpless of the refugees, an abused minority in Myanmar who migrated in large numbers to Bangladesh, where they live in poverty and mostly without rights as a stateless minority.

  Experts on the Rohingya describe an endless cycle of abuse in which migrants are handed over to traffickers who demand money to take them to Malaysia, where many are arrested and sent back into the hands of some of the same traffickers in Thailand.

  If at any stage they are unable to pay the traffickers, the immigrants say, they can be sold to work on Thai fishing trawlers as indentured laborers.

http://www.nytimes.c....html?ref=world

[Scott]

So when they think no one is watching, it really isn't the LOS, I guess?  

Very, very sad commentary on the military in particular and the gov't in general.

[bangkokrick]

Although i condemn the actions of the Thai navy lets not forget that the Australian government did a similar thing in the past. Not quite as severe but still?

THE AUSTRALIAN government was condemned as inhumane yesterday for refusing to allow into its territorial waters a ship with 434 asylum- seekers, inclu-ding sick people and children.

The would-be refugees, understood to be mainly from Afghanistan and Sri Lanka, had been rescued from a crippled Indonesian ferry by the Norwegian cargo ship Tampa. They include 22 women and 43 children. Last night they were 12 miles off Christmas Island, the Australian outpost 1,000 miles west of the mainland.

Wahid Supriyadi, Indonesia's foreign affairs spokesman, said: "If Australian authorities refused [entry] because they don't have proper documents, we don't see any reason to let them in. We find it hard to believe that the ferry departed from Indonesian waters. Refugees normally travel on small boats."


Karsten Klepsvik, a Norwegian foreign ministry spokesman, urged Australia and Indonesia to take responsibility for the refugees.

Australia's conservative government, led by John Howard, has adopted a hardline stance towards the swelling numbers of "Boat People" arriving on its shores, but this is the first time Australia has turned away a ship. "We simply cannot allow a situation to develop where Australia is seen ... as a country of easy destination," Mr Howard said. Food and medical supplies would be sent to the Tampa by helicopter from Christmas Island, the Prime Minister added.

He said his government had taken legal advice and "it is our view, as a matter of international law, this matter is something that must be resolved between the government of Indonesia and the government of Norway".

An increasing number of refugees from the Middle East travel overland to Indonesia and pay "people smugglers" to take them to Australia, often in unseaworthy boats.

Tampa had diverted from its course to Singapore to answer emergency calls from a sinking Indonesian vessel, the KM Palapa 1. Arne Rinnan, the Tampa's captain, said five men had stormed the bridge and ordered him to take the group to Australia, threatening to throw themselves overboard unless he agreed.

"They flatly refused to go back to Indonesia and they were threatening to jump overboard," Captain Rinnan added. "It could have been turning into a really ugly situation." He said the men told him: "We have left everything behind. The situation is very bad. We do not want to go to Singapore or Indonesia. We have nothing to lose."

Captain Rinnan told an Australian radio station he was worried about the health of two asylum-seekers, one who had suffered a suspected heart attack and the other who had a broken leg. Trod Svensen, vice-president of the Norwegian shipping company Wilh Wilhemsen, said some of the refugees had dysentery and other illnesses.

Several such boats have arrived in Australia in the past fortnight, carrying more than 1,500 asylum-seekers, mainly from Afghanistan, Iraq and Iran, most of them via Christmas Island. The Tampa boatload is the largest single group to attempt entry. One report says a second boat carrying about 500 people is still heading for the island.

The Australian government's decision was condemned by human rights groups. Margaret Piper, executive director of the Refugee Council of Australia, said: "To prevent people from seeking protection is something that is contrary to our international obligations."

Australia, whose refugee policy is among the world's harshest, has been criticised by the United Nations and Amnesty International for detaining asylum-seekers in grim Outback camps while their applications are processed.
Independent Newspapers UK Limited

Cheers, Rick

Edited by bangkokrick, 2009-01-18 21:15:38.

[Pierrot]

bangkokrick, on 2009-01-18 22:13:53, said:

Although i condemn the actions of the Thai navy lets not forget that the Australian government..

Australia, the place where having a criminal conviction is still a requirement to get an immigrant visa ?

[mogoso]

[quote name='serpentine' date='2009-01-16 00:03:13' post='2468393']
This is not the sort of press tourists need to see, although beside the point. I would have thought such "dirty work" would be carried out in away from prying eyes.
Well it's all over the interational press now.
This is as indecent as Taksin's treatment of protesters in the south.
There is no excuse.
It seems the thai army were either oblivious or so arrogant they didn't care. Very sad that a buddhist culture would allow security forces to act in such a way.
Imagine how incensed thais would be if they found out this happened to thai boat people abroad?
The new government have a chance to act on this issue. Would be interesting to see how accountable the army are to the new gov. We know thais are patriotic and often ignorant to other cultures, although I can't imagine most thais seeing this behaviour as decent or acceptable.

Curious as to the Army's actions under Taksins administration were his fault, yet the action of the Army under the new administration is the Army's fault and not the new PM's. Can no fault given to a liberal?