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[Oberkommando]

tropo, on 2009-04-13 21:12:26, said:

The best way that I can explain it is that you're wrong and they ARE shooting blanks. That's a far more logical conclusion than some self proclaimed gun experts making conclusions from photos.

Translation: I refuse to believe the factual evidence presented so I will stick my head in the sand and remain ignorant instead.

[cclub75]

silverhawk_usa, on 2009-04-13 18:38:31, said:

Yeah, I am not an expert either, but firing live rounds point blank into the crowds would result in a body count that one cannot easily hide from the media or the people. There would also be property damage from the rounds that are being sprayed around randomly or missing their target. I guess it's wait and see and hope it is not happening.

It's funny that nobody ask the question : what would be the point to send soldiers with... blank bullets ?


What could they achieve as far as crowd control is concerned ? Why the Red would roll back ?

It's absurd.

[cmsally]

lannarebirth, on 2009-04-13 22:04:32, said:

cmsally, on 2009-04-13 21:29:52, said:

Local radio is reporting over 300 dead and 2000 injured. Rather a stark contrast to govt. reports.

Thank you for that report Sally. That's certainly a startling claim in light of other reports we're reading. Did the radio report detail where this carnage took place, and by whom, and what has become of the bodies/injured?

Afraid not, but will keep listening. Interestingly I was listening with a couple of Thai people who were veterans of the riots back in the '70's and when my eyes got bigger at the mention of the number reported dead; they read my mind and said "you really don't need us to explain about dead bodies in past crackdowns do you, they are still unaccounted for".
You need to remember that older Thais see this in a very different light to the clean cut image the govt is trying to display.

[wasabi]

It is horrible if protesters are dying but what can be expected when they attack the prime minister set public property on fire and kill average civilians? I noticed Thaksin was trying to divert attention to the fact 'bare handed' protesters were being slaughtered. When these guys are wielding various weapons and are acting chaotically and threatening us all. If you play with fire you have to be prepared to get burnt. No I am not advocating death only what do they expect the government to just sit down and take it?

Edited by wasabi, 2009-04-13 22:22:17.

[on-on]

cmsally, on 2009-04-13 10:19:48, said:

Interestingly I was listening with a couple of Thai people who were veterans of the riots back in the '70's and when my eyes got bigger at the mention of the number reported dead; they read my mind and said "you really don't need us to explain about dead bodies in past crackdowns do you, they are still unaccounted for".
You need to remember that older Thais see this in a very different light to the clean cut image the govt is trying to display.

True, but older Thais didn't have benefit of an entire nation of cameraphones and the internet. Putting aside all political predilections, massacres involving tons of people in heavily populated urban areas simply do not go unreported anymore because someone always sends out images and video almost instantaneously. We've had tons of video today of all kinds of things and more may still come out, but it's been almost 12 hours since the incident that sparked all of this debate in the first place and we've seen nighttime pictures of people holding bullets and holes in cars, but no indication regarding the event that precipitated all this discussion that there is any evidence of dead people, shot up windows and cars, scored walls and pavement. I'm following the Pantip.com threads as well, where that stuff usually pops up first, and there's nothing like that from Victory Monument area.

It may still come out, but as I mentioned before when the PAD guys got put down by the cops there were pictures and video online within a very short period of time showing the guy with his leg shot off and many other severe injuries which were consistent with the descriptions of the violence that preceded them. In this case we're told to believe that those hundreds of Thai soldiers that stormed Victory Monument unloaded live rounds into the area willy nilly but that they either fired into the air and magically hit nothing anywhere or that all evidence has been immediately covered up by the government. Either of these things could be roughly true (the firing into the air and hitting nothing anywhere being somewhat incredibly unlikely, of course) and certainly governments lie, but both seem ever more unlikely as time goes on.

[sbk]

cmsally, on 2009-04-13 21:29:52, said:

Local radio is reporting over 300 dead and 2000 injured. Rather a stark contrast to govt. reports.

Which station?

[Freddie_fly]

on-on, on 2009-04-13 15:32:58, said:

cmsally, on 2009-04-13 10:19:48, said:

Interestingly I was listening with a couple of Thai people who were veterans of the riots back in the '70's and when my eyes got bigger at the mention of the number reported dead; they read my mind and said "you really don't need us to explain about dead bodies in past crackdowns do you, they are still unaccounted for".
You need to remember that older Thais see this in a very different light to the clean cut image the govt is trying to display.

True, but older Thais didn't have benefit of an entire nation of cameraphones and the internet. Putting aside all political predilections, massacres involving tons of people in heavily populated urban areas simply do not go unreported anymore because someone always sends out images and video almost instantaneously. We've had tons of video today of all kinds of things and more may still come out, but it's been almost 12 hours since the incident that sparked all of this debate in the first place and we've seen nighttime pictures of people holding bullets and holes in cars, but no indication regarding the event that precipitated all this discussion that there is any evidence of dead people, shot up windows and cars, scored walls and pavement. I'm following the Pantip.com threads as well, where that stuff usually pops up first, and there's nothing like that from Victory Monument area.

It may still come out, but as I mentioned before when the PAD guys got put down by the cops there were pictures and video online within a very short period of time showing the guy with his leg shot off and many other severe injuries which were consistent with the descriptions of the violence that preceded them. In this case we're told to believe that those hundreds of Thai soldiers that stormed Victory Monument unloaded live rounds into the area willy nilly but that they either fired into the air and magically hit nothing anywhere or that all evidence has been immediately covered up by the government. Either of these things could be roughly true (the firing into the air and hitting nothing anywhere being somewhat incredibly unlikely, of course) and certainly governments lie, but both seem ever more unlikely as time goes on.

I was here during the 1981 "young Turks" Coup and the 1991 NPKC coup, and unfortunately again for the anti-Taksin coup. I dont remember the death toll in 1992 that effectively prompted intervention from above, but it was in the hundreds with many not accounted for. But believe me there is a difference between troops with automatic weapons firing into the air as opposed to firing into the crowd, if you look at the videos from today you can see that if a solid line of troops had fired directly into the crowd there would have been many deaths and a lot of property damage, the M16 rifle is a very high velocity weapon that can cause death from shock trauma even when the bullet strieks a non vital region. There are many posts around saying there are hundreds of dead, but apart from a poor resident telling the reds to go home, so far not one independantly verified death from a soldiers weapon.

regards
Freddie

edit: just googled it and official death toll was 52 from Black May, hundreds unaccounted for even today

Edited by Freddie_fly, 2009-04-13 23:01:41.

[on-on]

Freddie_fly, on 2009-04-13 10:59:55, said:

I was here during the 1981 "young Turks" Coup and the 1991 NPKC coup, and unfortunately again for the anti-Taksin coup. I dont remember the death toll in 1992 that effectively prompted intervention from above, but it was in the hundreds with many not accounted for. But believe me there is a difference between troops with automatic weapons firing into the air as opposed to firing into the crowd, if you look at the videos from today you can see that if a solid line of troops had fired directly into the crowd there would have been many deaths and a lot of property damage, the M16 rifle is a very high velocity weapon that can cause death from shock trauma even when the bullet strieks a non vital region. There are many posts around saying there are hundreds of dead, but apart from a poor resident telling the reds to go home, so far not one independantly verified death from a soldiers weapon.

Yes, this is essentially my point if you read my posts. The problem, of course, is that the absence of evidence doesn't conclusively prove a negative, so you're always stuck with persistent doubt among participants in such a heated debate. If the local business owners and residents don't come out in the aftermath of all this showing off the bullet holes in their windows and cars in the area we've been discussing it's going to be rough to believe that a bunch of rifles were fired at all.

Edited by on-on, 2009-04-13 23:07:12.

[kittiwat1]

The red shirts and Thaksin managed to create millions of enemies in the past few days. Their hope of gaining symphathy and popularity is greatly diminished.

[mrparanoid]

on-on, on 2009-04-13 18:06:21, said:

If the local business owners and residents don't come out in the aftermath of all this showing off the bullet holes in their windows and cars in the area we've been discussing it's going to be rough to believe that a bunch of rifles were fired at all.

Well.. apart from the fact that several of the most reliable news channels like CNN, BBC, and SKYNEWS are reporting that live rounds have been fired - mostly in the air (Do you really expect people to climb skyscrapers to look for bullet holes so you can believe live ammunition have been used?) - these very same channels have all shown clips of soldiers in groups of up to 30 emptying their magazines in the air to scare off the red shirts when they were becoming aggressive. There is a video on CNN showing several soldiers emtpying their magazine into an empty oncoming bus and you can clearly see windows beeing blown out from the shooting. SKYNEWS has a video showing a couple of soldiers firing single shots in the direction of red shirts. NOT firing off thousands of shots. But a couple of shots.. How can you expect to see shot up vehicles and bullet ridden buildings from a few shots? One of the soldiers fires a handgun as well..

 000shot0.JPG   269.23K   26 downloads  000shot1.JPG   242.37K   25 downloads  000shot2.JPG   260.38K   20 downloads  000shot3.JPG   285.93K   21 downloads

The soldiers seem to respond to the situation very well using as little force as possible, but there seems to be no doubt whatsoever that they ARE using live rounds and not blanks.

Edited by mrparanoid, 2009-04-14 00:36:28.

[sriracha john]

Suspect in PM's Car Attack Arrested

Police from Lumpini station in Bangkok have arrested a suspect for his involvement in the attack on the Prime Minister's car at the Interior Ministry last month.

Police officers from Lumpini police station served an arrest warrant issued by the Criminal Court for 41-year-old Arun Chayachan.

He has been charged with robbery, trespassing on state property, illegal detainment, possession of a firearm without a licence, and assembling more than 10 persons to cause a disturbance.

These charges stem from his alleged role in the attack on Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva's motorcade at the Interior Ministry on the eve of the Songkran festival.

Police made the arrest after an informant reported the suspect's whereabouts to them. The suspect was reportedly watching a boxing match at Lumpini stadium at that time.

During the interrogation, Arun admitted that he was at the ministry on the day of the incident and had seized weapons from the security team who was protecting Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva.

He denied that he attacked the car that Abhisit was inside.

After the interrogation, police took Arun to Samranrat police station for further processing. The metropolitan police chief will hold a press conference at 2pm today to officially confirm the arrest and present the informant with the 50,000 baht reward money.


-- Tan Network 2009-05-20

[sriracha john]

Is this one of the Army soldiers that Red Shirt Leader Jatuporn said was responsible for attacking the PM's car?

[TAWP]

cmsally, on 2009-04-13 21:29:52, said:

Local radio is reporting over 300 dead and 2000 injured. Rather a stark contrast to govt. reports.

Atleast now we know what kind of radio you listen too...

[animatic]

If the guy is so innocent why is he hiding his face?
Worried that the press will match him to attack video footage maybe?
Or maybe he is ashamed of the Red actions that day?

[sriracha john]

Another UDD supporter arrested

BANGKOK, 20 May 2009 (NNT) - Another supporter of the United Front for Democracy against Dictatorship (UDD) who invaded into the Ministry of Interior during the Songkran riot was arrested.

Deputy Metropolitan Police Chief Police Major-General Pongsan Jiemon said Arun Chayachan, 41, another UDD supporter ranked 19th in the list of wanted people with a bounty of 50,000 baht, had already been arrested on charges of involvement in the gathering of more than 10 people to cause riot to the country and damaging the Interior Ministry’s properties.

He said Arun confessed he was the person stated in the arrest warrant and was the security guard for the UDD protesters during Songkran chaos.

The arrested Arun admitted he guarded his UDD fellow Suporn Attawong, known as Issan Rambo, but claimed that he did not attack the vehicle of the prime minister.

He also asserted that the UDD’s restraining of the militant guarding the prime minister was to keep him away from unknown assault.

Police Major-General Pongsan added the police would expedite in bringing 28 other UDD supporters who broke into the Interior Ministry to prosecution.


-- NNT 2009-05-20

======================================================================

Note: I believe NNT meant "military guards guarding" the prime minister (or words to that effect) in the 2nd to last sentence.

[sriracha john]

sriracha john, on 2009-05-20 16:20:11, said:

Is this one of the Army soldiers that Red Shirt Leader Jatuporn said was responsible for attacking the PM's car?

Based on the below.... I guess not

sriracha john, on 2009-05-20 21:40:17, said:

Another UDD supporter arrested

BANGKOK, 20 May 2009 (NNT) - Another supporter of the United Front for Democracy against Dictatorship (UDD) who invaded into the Ministry of Interior during the Songkran riot was arrested.

Deputy Metropolitan Police Chief Police Major-General Pongsan Jiemon said Arun Chayachan, 41, another UDD supporter ranked 19th in the list of wanted people

[Koo82]

sriracha john, on 2009-05-20 16:20:11, said:

Is this one of the Army soldiers that Red Shirt Leader Jatuporn said was responsible for attacking the PM's car?

Attacking his car?

Was Abhisit inside that car?

[PoorSucker]

Koo82, on 2009-05-20 23:30:09, said:

sriracha john, on 2009-05-20 16:20:11, said:

Is this one of the Army soldiers that Red Shirt Leader Jatuporn said was responsible for attacking the PM's car?

Attacking his car?

Was Abhisit inside that car?

Been waiting a long time time for the "proof".
But it also must been true with the 1000 shot dead during Songkran because they said so in "Truth today".

Mc2 and Koo82, can you post the "evidence", sure you have it.
It's "Truth Today", not "we have it but will not show".

PS
Not normally comment at politics, but this is ridiculous.
DS

Edited by PoorSucker, 2009-05-21 00:11:50.

[Koo82]

PS, I asked whether Abhisit was in that car. I didn't make any statement yet.

[h90]

Koo82, on 2009-05-21 00:22:33, said:

PS, I asked whether Abhisit was in that car. I didn't make any statement yet.

And would it matter?
They almost killed one driver of another car.

[h90]

sriracha john, on 2009-05-20 16:20:11, said:

Is this one of the Army soldiers that Red Shirt Leader Jatuporn said was responsible for attacking the PM's car?

I thought the yellows did it to discredit the peaceful red shirts?
To make it even worse Sondhi shot himself in the head......

Is DTV available again?? I can't await to see the pictures of the 200 dead red shirts which were killed by the army.

[sriracha john]

Red shirt 'attacker' nabbed

The parliamentary fact-finding committee on the recent crackdown on red-shirt protests is disappointed at the alleged lack of cooperation from senior military and police commanders, a source said yesterday.

The committee has invited the armed forces supreme commander, the Army commander-in-chief and the national police chief to testify about how the security forces dealt with anti-government protesters during the Songkran riots in Bangkok and the red shirts' storming into the Asean Summit venue in Pattaya.

However, each of the commanders has declined to testify in person before the fact-finding committee, arguing that they are too busy with their work, according to the source.

The committee was instead advised to seek information from relevant state agencies.

The fact-finding committee, chaired by Deputy Attorney-General Somsak Bunthong, yesterday convened to set up seven sub-committees to investigate incidents that took place in different locations and the alleged use of violence by the authorities. The sub-committees are each chaired by a senator.

The sub-committees are set to begin their work later this month before convening for their first joint meeting on June 4. The committee has 45 days to complete its task.

Army spokesman Colonel Sansern Kaewkamnerd said yesterday that the Army chief, General Anupong Paochinda, was not directly involved with the crackdown operation and that he thought it was better to assign someone who was more familiar with the matter to testify before the panel.

Meanwhile, a man accused of taking part in a violent incident during a red-shirt protest at the Interior Ministry in April was arrested yesterday, police said.

Arun Chayachan, 41, was arrested outside the Lumpini Boxing Stadium on charges of trespassing into a state agency compound, illegal detention, and illegally carrying a firearm.

Arun said that he had acted as a guard for former MP Suporn Atthawong during the demonstration at the Interior Ministry. However, he denied that he was involved in attacking the limousine of Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva.

Arun said he was aware that he was one of those facing arrest warrants in connection with the incident, but he planned to surrender to police later, along with other suspects, as suggested by their lawyers.

Police Major-General Pongsan Jiam-on, deputy commissioner of the Metropolitan Police, told a press conference yesterday that in addition to Arun, 28 other suspects are wanted in connection with the incident.


-- The Nation 2009-05-21

[sriracha john]

Two charged over PM attack

Two men have been charged for attacking Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva's limousine on April 12 in the compound of the Interior Ministry during the Songkran red shirt riots.

Aroon Chayachan, 41, was arrested yesterday at Lumpini boxing stadium on Rama IV Road. He has been charged with raiding a government office, illegal possession of weapons, and illegal assembly. Aroon denied the charges, but admitted he was among red shirt demonstrators who gathered at the ministry on April 12, some of whom seized a pistol from a guard providing security for the prime minister.

Aroon said he had not been involved in the attack on Mr Abhisit's limousine. After questioning, police took him to Samran Rat police station for charging. Police also arrested Somsak Buakhlee, 35, a native of Samut Prakan province. He was caught yesterday at Mon bridge on Wang Burapha Road in Phra Nakhon district. Police said Somsak confessed to being among demonstrators on a video tape showing the attack on Mr Abhisit's limousine. He denied any involvement in the attack, but admitted he joined the red shirt demonstration led by the anti-government United Front for Democracy against Dictatorship.

Continued:

-- Bangkok Post 2009-05-21

[Koo82]

h90, on 2009-05-21 00:51:18, said:

Koo82, on 2009-05-21 00:22:33, said:

PS, I asked whether Abhisit was in that car. I didn't make any statement yet.

And would it matter?
They almost killed one driver of another car.

I does. If Abhisit was not in the car, the reds fell into the trap forcing them cause violence.

The reds said Abhisit was the first to fly up in a helicopter in Pattaya. He, being rich and young, never has tough life, never in a fight, never faces enemy eye to eye teeth to teeth, was so frightened. So, why did soldiers let the reds go inside the Ministry of Interior Affairs to attack his car?

At the same time, Abhisit was not in Government House but many soldiers stood inside to protect GH.

[TAWP]

Koo82, on 2009-05-21 14:29:33, said:

h90, on 2009-05-21 00:51:18, said:

Koo82, on 2009-05-21 00:22:33, said:

PS, I asked whether Abhisit was in that car. I didn't make any statement yet.

And would it matter?
They almost killed one driver of another car.

I does. If Abhisit was not in the car, the reds fell into the trap forcing them cause violence.

No, it only means that attacked a car they thought he was in since they are violent thugs.