[ernest1966]

I've only seen a small snapshot (or the results). My wife's sis has just finished senior/high school. She wants to be an english teacher and her parents are all up for it.

Reading skills are great, but there is no comprehension, of even a simple sentence. No understanding of what the words mean, let alone the gist of a whole sentence.

The parents are going to fork out x thousand baht to put her through uni, but I have doubts, if she is going to be a teacher is this the blind leading the blind, she's actually classed 3rd in the whole school for her abilities in english!

Is this the norm?

Is this just for english or accross the whole cariculum ?

[thaicbr]

Depends on the school. But certainly English language at Thai schools has its own problems, they are taught grammar,reading and writing BUT many have NO idea what they are reading or writing. And don't get me started on conversation.
ernest old fruit you need to use the spell checker more.
Is this just for english or accross the whole cariculum ? Is this just for English or across the whole curriculum ?
Allan

[jamesjdaly]

Donkey's years ago, I taught a group of Thai teachers of English at an MoE seminar over the course of a week. Atrocious, pathetic, terrible, appalling, sub-standard, laughable and depressing are the immediate words that spring to mind of their ability to even utter a choerent, simple sentence.

Lovely people, but totally uneducated in English teaching. Thailand will always be a sub-standard backwater in terms of language proficiency.

[MSingh]

I recently bought a Thai/English Picture Dictionary for my Daughter..

It scared the sh*t out of me as it told us that a Bat is a Bird & a Whale is a Fish !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I threw the Book away but i dread to think what they are taught to be honest, if this kind of thing is allowed to be in Books, especially one's that I understand..

[sanook2me]

ernest1966, on 2009-04-16 13:58:03, said:

I've only seen a small snapshot (or the results). My wife's sis has just finished senior/high school. She wants to be an english teacher and her parents are all up for it.

Reading skills are great, but there is no comprehension, of even a simple sentence. No understanding of what the words mean, let alone the gist of a whole sentence.

The parents are going to fork out x thousand baht to put her through uni, but I have doubts, if she is going to be a teacher is this the blind leading the blind, she's actually classed 3rd in the whole school for her abilities in english!

Is this the norm?

Is this just for english or accross the whole cariculum ?

When I was taught French at high school it was by the English maths teacher - French was the second of his teaching sessions.

Not sure how we would have behaved with a real French person but i'm sure I probaly learnt the same at that level no matter who taught me..

But if i wanted to learn a language at a higher level this would take me to college / university / private tuition / language school.
There I would expect to increase my skills and become as fluent as my old gray matter would let me.

So whats the issue with Thai's kids having Thai English teachers - they will teach them to read / write and basic grammar rules from these skills they can then make a judgement if they want to study English at a higher level after they finish high school.

Its there call -

[GungaDin]

Ernest......... Scarey, innit?


I have a Q too.

Mental arithmetic
If Thais are taught by rote. how come they can't add up, multiply, subtract or divide in their head?

I haven't seen a shop assistant who can do the simplest addition without a Casio.

They're amazed that I can give them an answer before they have finished with their calculator.

[BHA83]

GungaDin, on 2009-04-16 21:53:44, said:

Ernest......... Scarey, innit?


I have a Q too.

Mental arithmetic
If Thais are taught by rote. how come they can't add up, multiply, subtract or divide in their head?

I haven't seen a shop assistant who can do the simplest addition without a Casio.

They're amazed that I can give them an answer before they have finished with their calculator.

Thats a fact! No matter where you go in Thailand, the shopkeeper has his/her calculator and must use it for the most simple sums.

What I don't understand is when you look at a Thai students maths book they are actually bloody difficult! But from what I understand, if the students do not understand the maths questions they will not admit this to the teacher so they just copy each other. Is it a fear of the teacher?

[jamesjdaly]

sanook2me, on 2009-04-16 21:53:15, said:

ernest1966, on 2009-04-16 13:58:03, said:

I've only seen a small snapshot (or the results). My wife's sis has just finished senior/high school. She wants to be an english teacher and her parents are all up for it.

Reading skills are great, but there is no comprehension, of even a simple sentence. No understanding of what the words mean, let alone the gist of a whole sentence.

The parents are going to fork out x thousand baht to put her through uni, but I have doubts, if she is going to be a teacher is this the blind leading the blind, she's actually classed 3rd in the whole school for her abilities in english!

Is this the norm?

Is this just for english or accross the whole cariculum ?

When I was taught French at high school it was by the English maths teacher - French was the second of his teaching sessions.

Not sure how we would have behaved with a real French person but i'm sure I probaly learnt the same at that level no matter who taught me..

But if i wanted to learn a language at a higher level this would take me to college / university / private tuition / language school.
There I would expect to increase my skills and become as fluent as my old gray matter would let me.

So whats the issue with Thai's kids having Thai English teachers - they will teach them to read / write and basic grammar rules from these skills they can then make a judgement if they want to study English at a higher level after they finish high school.

Its there call -

I think you mean "It's their call"?

[wasabi]

Any kind of word problem involving logic, comprehension and anything other than the literal meaning shows how little your average Thai understands about most things in the world. Give a Thai person an IQ test, in their own language of course, and come back to me with the results. Before anyone accuses me of bashing these are well established facts. But I don't subscribe to some genetic flaw, it's a system flaw as I know plenty of brilliant Thai's from outside of Thailand.

The huge uneducated, uncompetitive generation of young Thai's coming of age will assure Thailand remains a third world country for many years to come. There are of course exceptions but on average what I say is fact.

This post has been edited by wasabi: 2009-04-16 22:15

[G54]

A certain lady I knew until recently had plenty of English spoken to her so she was reasonably good at being understood but she had to take an English test at school a couple of months back. Prior to this test she used to bring her English books round for me to help her out.
She had taken the test 3 times already and failed. She really needed the pass to move on to computer courses. The level of teaching she got from her teacher was, from what I could comprehend, abysmal.
I looked at the books and those books were so bad in many ways I could not believe it. I resorted to using the internet and computer to help her out. She passed the last test with 75%.
Last I heard she has now been accepted onto the computer course. That will be another long, and I think, fraught experience for her.

[thaicbr]

No its just that copying is the norm here the teachers don't care they did it and their teachers did it. And they can get very upset when you tell them that copying is wrong, that the student should do the work themselves.

I know and teach several University students who can NOT calculate basic arithmetic in their heads, and one of them has to do calculus for a Marketing degree (not sure why).

It's Thailand, they are not taught free thinking its generally rote learning, that's why you don't see many Thai inventions.
Allan

[GuestHouse]

Quote

I know plenty of brilliant Thai's from outside of Thailand.

Well I can assure you I know plenty of brilliant Thais from inside Thailand.

It's my guess that 9 tenths of the foreigners living in Thailand can't string a coherent sentence together in the Thai language - beyond ordering another beer or some food.

Immersed in the language and unable, or unwilling to learn it and yet critical of Thai English language skills.

[GuestHouse]

Quote

It's Thailand, they are not taught free thinking its generally rote learning, that's why you don't see many Thai inventions.
Allan

And tell us Allan - what inventions have you come up with?

[ernest1966]

Yep, seen the old casios everywhere, I give them the result before they put the numbers in and my wife looks at me like I'm some sort of witch doctor!

Scary, seen the old copying thing as well, all my wife's cousins nephews/nieces copy off each other when doing their homework, so not surpising they do it at school.

Really is a 3rd world country, its not the poverty, standard of living, politics or anything like that. Its how the majority of the population look at life.

Scary sh1t

[zaphodbeeblebrox]

sanook2me, on 2009-04-16 21:53:15, said:

So whats the issue with Thai's kids having Thai English teachers - they will teach them to read / write and basic grammar rules from these skills they can then make a judgement if they want to study English at a higher level after they finish high school.
Its there call -

Thai English teachers are incapable of teaching reading and writing skills at a sufficient level to get secondary school students ready for university study (not just English, but any university study program). There are new national curriculum standards which go into effect for next year which emphasize reading and writing. Thai English teachers lack the ability to assess student reading comprehension and to teach, let alone, assess writing skills. My school is doing a major reshuffle to allow foreign teachers to teach reading and writing, which includes expanding our native speaking teaching staff from 17 teachers to 20 teachers.

This post has been edited by zaphodbeeblebrox: 2009-04-16 22:47

[wasabi]

GuestHouse, on 2009-04-16 22:19:36, said:

Quote

I know plenty of brilliant Thai's from outside of Thailand.

Well I can assure you I know plenty of brilliant Thais from inside Thailand.

It's my guess that 9 tenths of the foreigners living in Thailand can't string a coherent sentence together in the Thai language - beyond ordering another beer or some food.

Immersed in the language and unable, or unwilling to learn it and yet critical of Thai English language skills.

As an example. In my Thai language class to check my reading comprehension I had a series of teachers that felt I did not understand the passage unless I answered a question with the exact wording of a sentence in a passage. Fortunately I am now studying with a teacher who is better educated and allows personal interpretation. This type of blind faith that what is written in the book must be repeated and believed to the letter is emblematic of the problem.

But on the other hand there have been many times where I went to Fortune Town with a computer problem and the Tech was able to diagnose and fix it very quickly, something I had to go to them for help with so there are skill sets many Thai's have that I lack. I guess what I'm saying is, to use a cliche. Thinking outside the box, paraphrasing, using figurative meanings these are not things that are taught adequately to Thai people. I guess it's a matter of perspective which type of knowledge one considers more important.

This post has been edited by wasabi: 2009-04-16 23:17

[fj709]

Dear All,
I have been teaching my two teenage nieces and a few other kids in the village for the past couple of years during my periodic five month stay away from the English winter.
They come to my class in the evening, three days a week for two hours.
My nieces continue to complete lessons I send them over the internet during my time in England.
I have been using material from England and the internet as I have found the Thai material generally poor to say the least.
Firstly I must say that the kids are very keen to learn, they are patient and respectful and attend these evening classes keenly.
The fact is that they are being let down by the standard of teaching in their schools.
Although I have to say that one of the students who is 13 years old and goes to a well respected school, can speak English better than most of the English school teachers I have met, so there are clearly some schools who teach to a good standard.
Most of my kids go to classes with over 40 students in them, with a teacher who cannot speak even elementary English.
I am not a teacher myself but I have now decided to concentrate on getting them to read and speak English.
In my humble opinion the problem is nothing to do with the character of the Thai's but much more to do with the resources and system of education in the country.

This post has been edited by fj709: 2009-04-16 23:19

[wasabi]

fj709, on 2009-04-16 23:17:13, said:

In my humble opinion the problem is nothing to do with the character of the Thai's but much more to do with the resources and system of education in the country.

I agree completely with you and I apologize if any thing I have posted sounds racist. It is a lack of opportunity and poor teaching methods that are doing a disservice to Thai people and leaving them without the skills and worldwide perspective that would help them compete and advance Thailand faster. Sometimes I think this type of pedagogue is intentional to keep people in the dark.

[ThaisGood]

Related comment. My daughter has a Thai passport. She is a straight A student. We have raised her in USA but from the moment she was born we taught her Thai sounds, music, letters and words. She is by no means fluent, because her mother usually used English. I speak Thai ok. My daughter went back and forth at least 10 times as well, twice spending 2 months in Thailand. She can speak Thai.

I wanted her to become totally fluent, by immersing her in a Thai school. As a kid, my family hosted exchange students. This is the way to learn. In my local community, kids appear from all over the world in local schools and taxpayers fund ESL education for them, for free! They go right into schools with the other kids.

OK so when my daughter was 11 years old I took her to a Thai catholic school in a Moo Bahn where her grandmother lives. She has a cousin in this school.

I asked if my daughter could become enrolled in that school for one term. They looked amazed at such an idea. Why would I send my daughter there for one term? What kind of crazy father would want their kid immersed in Thai language like that? How to do?

They pulled out a 5th grade test. If my daughter could demonstrate that she can pass that test, they would let her join the school! Alas, she could not pass that test. They gave me a pamphlet for where foreign kids can go to school in Thailand, and learn in English.

I think it was a big failure for the Thai education system. They lost a chance to have a bright, young international student in their class. My daughter would have aced Thai language within one term, with her background she would have got there. But "stupid" won the day.

As we left I noticed that this "school" was just packing kids in like sardines anyway, no facilities other than packed classrooms. It was just a money factory for the owners, in my opinion.

I think it symbolizes how backward the entire education system is.

[chiangmaibruce]

The 'Programme for International Student Assessment' (PISA) is a triennial survey of the knowledge and skills of fifteen year olds, conducted under the auspices of the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD). The last survey, conducted in 2006, surveyed 400,000 students in fifty-seven countries including Thailand.

Thailand was one of only fourteen countries that saw a decline in reading scores between the 2000 and 2006 surveys. Performance only declined slightly at the higher end of the student performance distribution, but declined markedly at the lower end

The ranking of students in proficiency in science saw Thailand ranked at 45th place, and significantly well below the OECD average. Thai students also had a below-average awareness of environmental issues

"Among the lowest-performing countries in PISA, a very high proportion of students had low levels of proficiency, indicating a need to improve standards across the board, for example through improvements in the curriculum" . Thailand was in this category

In Thailand teacher shortages were frequently reported as hindering the instruction of students. This reconciles with the finding that Thailand has one of the highest ratios of students to teachers

Less than one-half of a percent of Thai students can read at the highest level of proficiency (level 5) – only eight other countries were in this category. Thailand's overall ranking on reading proficiency was 41st out of 57 countries

Thailand's ranking for mathematics proficiency was 43rd out of 57 countries.

[Geekfreaklover]

GuestHouse, on 2009-04-16 22:19:36, said:

Quote

I know plenty of brilliant Thai's from outside of Thailand.

Well I can assure you I know plenty of brilliant Thais from inside Thailand.

It's my guess that 9 tenths of the foreigners living in Thailand can't string a coherent sentence together in the Thai language - beyond ordering another beer or some food.

Immersed in the language and unable, or unwilling to learn it and yet critical of Thai English language skills.

I think that the OP was reffering to students being taught English at Thai schools, rather than adults migrating to another country and learning the language. Obviously the younger the student begins to study a language the faster he/she will learn. It is much more difficult to pick up a new language when you are of advanced years. Most of the younger expats I know learn the basic spoken language here in a matter of months. Reading and writing takes a bit more time. We did not have lessons in Thai language at school but can get by quite well.

But back to the original question. I have taught 19-20 year olds English and their reading skills are amazing. I could hand them any book, Finnigans Wake, Moby Dick and they will read it cover to cover. The only problem being that they have not a clue as to what they are reading. I'm not talking about the overall understanding of the book. I'm talking about what a single sentance within the book means. Not a clue.

I've employed Thais with university degrees in English that can't put a simple spoken sentance together apart from ordering another beer or some food.

There is something wrong with the education system if you have a degree in English language and can' speak a single simple sentance in the English language.

[thaicbr]

Guesthouse. We are not Thai bashing, so get off your high horse. Do you or have you ever taught ANY subject here in Thailand. if not shut up If YES put up. All we are saying is what is happening AND for your information I asked a class of Thai students (18-23) if THEY could name a Thai inventor or invention (it was part of their book study) and WOW not one of them could. I proposed the King as a good Thai inventor.

And yes you are correct my Thai is very poor, but then I'm not learning Thai. I'm teaching English (where I am not allowed to speak Thai) And i do not have a lot of time to learn, I also have a major problem with the 5 tones.
Regards Allan
ps As for my inventions none, more of a modification, her name is 'SuperSonic' she will be sorely missed

[Sabum]

Misplaced, on 2009-04-17 00:08:57, said:

She was probably taught by a non-uni graduated farang English Teacher. There are plenty of those to go around.

No you don't know what you are talking about, even a highschool dropout would teach english better than a Thai english teacher. These "teachers" cannot talk english, not even a little bit, not clearly enough to be understood. So you have a teacher teaching garbled english and students repeating the garble syllable for syllable like it was handed to them by god... its completely ridiculous.

I dated a Chinese english teacher that taught at a Thai school, I couldn't understand a dam_n thing she was saying, ever, but she sure was hot.

[Freddie_fly]

My daughter at age 4, was reading the english books I brought back from the UK without too much problem, at age 3 I had her reciting the Alphabet, at age 6 I had UK books and we read together at night and I belived she was good. I seperated from her mother when she was 7, I paid school fees and extra learning fees. At age 9, I decided enough was enough and went to court, after 14 months I am now the sole legal guardian, In that three years when we were seperated, she went from having a good understanding of the basics, to losing it totally. Right now she is still reading English at the level of a 6-7 year old and cannot string sentences together. She is now in (what I consider) a reasonable school, with a thai teacher who has an american accent, But she is not improving, I dont believe now that it is her fault, I think that the teaching methods that are required here are not helping her. There just does not seem to be any imperative to educate these children, only give them the means to pass tests, What they really need to do (as teachers) is to get the kids interested, so they learn themselves, not indoctrinate them into a learning system that clearly doesnt work. The teaching methods here are 50 years out of date, unfortunately many schools, follow them and the result is young adults who cannot "think out of the box"............................but maybe that suits the people who really run this country.

regards
Freddie

[jupiler]

I think it has to do with a lack of interest, and not with skills.
Everything on radio and tv in the Kingdom is for nearly 99,9% in Thai language. They dubbing all the movies.Exept who's working in the tourism industry, the majority of the people here have hardly any contact with the English grammar!