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[keithlee]

many a thai wonders if farang education is lacking. they say only fools fall for their simple minded scams over and over and over again

[Sheryl]

A number of posts have been edited to remove generalized slurs against Thais or quotes that included them. Some flaming retorts to same have also been removed.

readers are reminded of forum rules:

7) Not to post slurs or degrading comments directed towards any group on the basis of race, nationality, religion, gender or sexual orientation.

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and those angered by seeing these rules violated are requested to kindly use the "report"function and let the Mods deal with it rather than posting angry retorts of their own.

Now stepping out of my Moderator role for a second, may I add an observation: Thailand is a very hierarchal society in which people from very different social classes do not have egalitaruian friendships. Relationships between people of different classes are governed by very well understood rules and reciprocal obligations. I'm not defending this system, just describing it.

Westerners often breach these systems, trying to establish friendhsips across class lines in a manner which just does not fit within the societal rules. Chaos, confusion and what to us constitutes scamming behavior often follows.

I am not saying that one has to emulate the behavior of middle/upper class Thais. This would go against many of our natures and values. But do be aware of how things work here and cautious about the signals you send, and how the "rules of engagement" mat be perceived (or nor perceived) in relationships with Thais of significantly lower socio-economic status than oneself.

In over 2 decades of living here I have noticed that a common mistake made both by westerners and by Thais when dealing with westerners is to assume, upon seeing that the rules one is accustomed to are not being applied, that there are no rules. When a westerner whose socioeconomic status is higher breaks the rules by establishing a friendship, sometimes all that is perceived is that "the rules"have been broken, which to some people signals a free-for-all. That the westerner in fact has rules/expectations may not be understood at all. Or, in an effort to frame the relationship in terms that are understandable, they may decode that the relationship is one of benefactor/patron to beneficee -- because the equal relationship you had in mind just doesn't translate in this cultural context.

[thailandlover]

At last, a sensible post. Thank you, Sheryl, for explaining in a cultural context what many foreigners seem to fail to understand.

[offset]

Yes I have been scammed by a bar girl most of the time I knew it was going on but when it became to much we split and I went with her friend also a bar girl after being with my GF for 2 months I found out the she has been scammed by he friend as well and she has not spoken to her for 18 months I do not know if I am being scammed by my GF but if I am she is being very clever and I have not spotted it but what I do know that she as saved me a lot of money in other ways. We still go to her old bars and yes there are a lot of men being scammed but there are a few honest ladies in the bars as well just to add I was warned about the first lady by the Mama son and she had nothing bad to say about my GF of over 20 months

[keithlee]

good to know there are good bargirls around.

[Shotime]

Sabum, on 2009-04-20 17:16:02, said:

Ive never been scammed. But Im not an old man that needs to buy my "friends". Look... if you are old and want to sleep with young women you must pay, pretty simple really. If you are being scammed by people that you are not sleeping with than why is that happening? If someone asks me for money for ANYTHING, my response is immediately no, unless its like my best friend (can't see how that would be a Thai person but anything is possible I guess).

G54, if non lovers are asking for money why would you even consider it? Are you the saviour of Thailand and all its poor people?

Why do people put so much value on money? Especially as a measure of trust? Whether they're lovers or not, is money the ultimate test of trust? My daughter plays me constantly. I tell her she plays me just like a working girl. She replied, "Dad, I'm allowed to play you cause I'm your daughter." I love that girl.

What does age have to do with anything related to being played? If you pay for sex, you pay for sex, or pay them to leave after the sex. If you're with a "lady," and she doesn't request favors once in awhile, you're with a monkey. However, there was a thread about monkeys feeding their number 1 the most and best portions of the food he gets. The monkey was the same age as his number 1.

I can't say I've never been scammed. However, at least I know when I'm being scammed. Sometimes I don't care. It's worth it.

There's another monkey who says he's married (I assume to a Thai), but never been scammed. Some people just don't know when they're being scammed.

[ALFREDO]

-LooseCannon-
I suggest, it could be, your Gf, Wife, family, whoever, scam you so well, that you not even notice it,
or you to blue eyed or looking with pink glasses and believe everything you get told.
Why can that not be possible? Who knows it all and everything? Really you? Your name Mr.X-ray and Mr. GOHOK detector?

[keithlee]

what kind of father compoares his daughter to a prostitute..........

[dragonfly94]

Sheryl, on 2009-04-21 10:30:06, said:

In over 2 decades of living here I have noticed that a common mistake made both by westerners and by Thais when dealing with westerners is to assume, upon seeing that the rules one is accustomed to are not being applied, that there are no rules. When a westerner whose socioeconomic status is higher breaks the rules by establishing a friendship, sometimes all that is perceived is that "the rules"have been broken, which to some people signals a free-for-all. That the westerner in fact has rules/expectations may not be understood at all. Or, in an effort to frame the relationship in terms that are understandable, they may decode that the relationship is one of benefactor/patron to beneficee -- because the equal relationship you had in mind just doesn't translate in this cultural context.

It might be the drink but I have read this four times and it still makes no sense. Why are people always stating how long they have been here? do they think it gives their opinion more value than somebody who has been here a couple of years, from what I have read on here not as often as it should.

[offset]

keithlee, on 2009-04-21 13:03:31, said:

what kind of father compoares his daughter to a prostitute..........

Why do you think it is only prositutes that scam

[barky]

I've been lied to and/or scamed here a number of times in the past by Thais (usually by women). For the record before arriving in Thailand I had never been scamed out of money in my life. The last time I can say I was scamed here was three and a half years ago by a large property developer of 75,000 baht, but I got over that and have moved on . Since then I haven't been scamed at all. Simple reason, outside of my wife and her family and her trusted friends (more through respect for my wife I'm sure) , I trust no-one at all. I keep my antenae up at all times, I never give over any money unless I get something of value in return. And, most importantly, keep my contact with Thais on a needs basis only.

Edited by barky, 2009-04-21 13:20:24.

[G54]

Sheryl, on 2009-04-21 10:30:06, said:

Now stepping out of my Moderator role for a second, may I add an observation: Thailand is a very hierarchal society in which people from very different social classes do not have egalitaruian friendships. Relationships between people of different classes are governed by very well understood rules and reciprocal obligations. I'm not defending this system, just describing it.

Westerners often breach these systems, trying to establish friendhsips across class lines in a manner which just does not fit within the societal rules. Chaos, confusion and what to us constitutes scamming behavior often follows.

I am not saying that one has to emulate the behavior of middle/upper class Thais. This would go against many of our natures and values. But do be aware of how things work here and cautious about the signals you send, and how the "rules of engagement" mat be perceived (or nor perceived) in relationships with Thais of significantly lower socio-economic status than oneself.

In over 2 decades of living here I have noticed that a common mistake made both by westerners and by Thais when dealing with westerners is to assume, upon seeing that the rules one is accustomed to are not being applied, that there are no rules. When a westerner whose socioeconomic status is higher breaks the rules by establishing a friendship, sometimes all that is perceived is that "the rules"have been broken, which to some people signals a free-for-all. That the westerner in fact has rules/expectations may not be understood at all. Or, in an effort to frame the relationship in terms that are understandable, they may decode that the relationship is one of benefactor/patron to beneficee -- because the equal relationship you had in mind just doesn't translate in this cultural context.

Good post Sheryl. To the point and does help to see things from a different perspective. Something that is not always easy to do.

I appreciate some of my posts of late seem to be critical, even contentious to some, but they are all relevant to the way life can be here. Life can be wonderful and often is.
Yet too often many of us are led on to believing one thing while disguising the fact something else is in the background, as if we should actually know what it is, without being told. I feel that then this is when these problems occur.
Maybe we do need educating more about the way the system works, or at least an insight like yours.

I, for one, would be and am more than happy to admit I have failings in the way I use my 'Western ways' to tackle a problem. My thought processes are Western.
Yet within myself, I am more than happy to try and accommodate the needs of a Thai in my daily life and in a relationship.
hel_l, I cook, I clean, I do the laundry, for both of us too. I help out with school monies, with children (if there are any) for clothes or milk or food. It is what I am. ( I can see a lot of men groaning at the thought of me doing all that, but it is the way I was brought up, to look after myself and not have a skivvy). Yet I am told I am 'for me' only.
Then when something like the 'scams' happen (and I do note the point you make where we would think it a scam but they do not) many of us feel cheated and then feel the relationship has broken down and also that distrust develops between us. That distrust after it happens once too often cannot be easily erased.

Off Topic slightly :-
Now, as I move tentatively into another relationship and bear in mind what you have said about relationships (above) and what others have said in previous topics, I actually fear for the next woman in my life and her 'safety' from the ex because of vindictive events surrounding me at the moment.

Anyway, Sheryl, the advice and insight given above is something I for one will try my best to bear in mind as I move onward

[Shotime]

Anybody who thinks I was comparing my daughter to a prostitute, obviously misses the point. Which is not uncommon. I'm having some problems with my son cause my daughter-in-law is an arrogant can't use the word, and also continually fails to see the point.

Being scammed goes on everywhere and for anything. It's an American way of life, if not the world. Which it is. We're just better at it. Look at the banking scandal. It's good to look at things that way cause then you have nowhere to go but up. OK. Here's the point.

If you're being scammed, by someone who's good at it, you don't know. Edit: To say you've never been scammed, is like saying you've been scammed. End of edit. That's got to be the definition of the word. I stay with those I can tell cause that way, I minimize my losses. That's the name of the game. Look around you.

Edit: If I hadn't matured, like I have to this point, I would have just made some remark about comparing a prostitute to your mammy. End of edit.

Edited by Shotime, 2009-04-21 14:42:54.

[Shotime]

keithlee, on 2009-04-21 13:03:31, said:

what kind of father compoares his daughter to a prostitute..........

Yours

[saywhat]

when one has problems with a son because of arrogant daughter in law usually the parent blames the wrong person. in many cases the son has no backbone. ITS THE SON WHO IS THE PROBLEM NOT THE LOVELY DAUGHTER IN LAW.

[norrona]

GuestHouse, on 2009-04-21 01:49:37, said:

norrona, on 2009-04-20 18:31:00, said:

one of the greatest scams I ever heard about was a mates g/f who stayed in his condo..............and angry and accused me of not believing her

what was even worse was my then mate when I explained it all to him got even more short with me and accused me of jealousy towards his relationship

they really suit each other and are still married and living in U.K, her brother has just finished school in Korat and is now going to University so she has done well and so has the brother, he didn't buy her any more thai gold but treated her to a rolex watch and a gucci bag at bkk airport I got told....I see where she was brought up and have to say a rolex watch and gucci bag go really well down the local shop that sells chang beer and mama noodles

I can't immagine for one moment why he thought he saw the little green demon of spite and envy in you!!

does something in my post seem familiar to you

I never had any interest in anyone elses relationship to be honest, i just found lots of men that wanted to tell me about how good their girls is, how she was different to the others and how fortunate they were....ignorance is bliss eh!!!

as a former ex-pat of pattaya i met many girls who were great girls, but marry them and shower them with gifts when they don't know the true value of money.....Nah don't think so

[norrona]

. I keep my antenae up at all times, I never give over any money unless I get something of value in return. And, most importantly, keep my contact with Thais on a needs basis only.
[/quote]

using that rule will keep you out of any real dramas, problem is you end up thinking bad of everyone, I did when I lived in Pattaya and to be honest found it a very lonely life....

[Shotime]

saywhat, on 2009-04-21 14:57:34, said:

when one has problems with a son because of arrogant daughter in law usually the parent blames the wrong person. in many cases the son has no backbone. ITS THE SON WHO IS THE PROBLEM NOT THE LOVELY DAUGHTER IN LAW.

You are 100% correct, except for THE LOVELY DAUGHTER IN LAW part.

[F1fanatic]

G54, on 2009-04-20 21:45:37, said:

dave111223, on 2009-04-20 17:04:15, said:

G54, on 2009-04-20 15:41:42, said:

Surely if a man is helping a Thai lady out, if a man is paying the rent, the electric, food, nights out and such, we could or should expect some honesty in return from our girlfriends?

Your paying to have a Thai g/f and you "expect some honesty"???

There might be a few things you'd expect to get out of that situation; honesty aint one of them.

That does not say I am paying to have a Thai g/f. It says I am paying the electric, rent etc. and that would be in the house where I live that she moved into. Paying for nights out in restaurants etc, isn't that the normal thing to do with a g/f ??

Ummm no. Back where you came from if your g/f moved in she would pay half the rent and living expenses. She may stop working later, but not from the get-go! If your g/f expects you to pay everything immediately - you're 'paying to have a g/f'.

Someone I know suggested to his thai g/f that she move in with him. She was v keen until he said that to show her commitment to the relationship he expected her to pay half the expenses.

They broke up immediately!

Edited by F1fanatic, 2009-04-21 17:34:51.

[Shotime]

F1fanatic, on 2009-04-21 17:12:30, said:

G54, on 2009-04-20 21:45:37, said:

dave111223, on 2009-04-20 17:04:15, said:

G54, on 2009-04-20 15:41:42, said:

Surely if a man is helping a Thai lady out, if a man is paying the rent, the electric, food, nights out and such, we could or should expect some honesty in return from our girlfriends?

Your paying to have a Thai g/f and you "expect some honesty"???

There might be a few things you'd expect to get out of that situation; honesty aint one of them.

That does not say I am paying to have a Thai g/f. It says I am paying the electric, rent etc. and that would be in the house where I live that she moved into. Paying for nights out in restaurants etc, isn't that the normal thing to do with a g/f ??

Ummm no. Back where you came from if your g/f moved in she would pay half the rent and living expenses. If she's not - you're 'paying to have a g/f'.....

As far as paying to have a Thai g/f, I have a vacancy if anyone's interested. Details can be worked out later. Trust is excluded from any contracts.

[torrenova]

Thais are probably the most stupid liars in the world. Take the school computer thing as an example from the the OP and think about how many times we have heard about immediate and sudden emergencies where money was required and the excuse given was no better than that of a two year old. The old saying - kwai mai sabai springs to mind.

Suck a guy's nether regions and his brain goes to jelly as well. They know that. Guys should have more sense.

They come out with the most fanciful of excuses and can never back them up. They are perhaps right that some muppet straight from the airport on his first trip outside his home country may not understand the money but for them to think that someone living here a long time who has a complete use of his senses will fall for the same bullshit fairytale means that they show us no respect.

I have lend and received back Bt10,000 to a cashier once who paid me back at Bt2,000 a month from her salary. We knew what it was for, could verify her story and so we lent it. Had an ex ask for 20k to stop her brother going to the monkey house when he had already skipped the country once !

The OP has to learn that you cannot just help out these people because the more you help the more they nee help a the less they do for themselves. Like people who have too many kids in Africa, they will not learn, so some have to die. It is the way of the world. Keeping them all alive only creates further problems down the line just as keeping helping lying cheating Thais just makes them less self sufficient and reliant upon the dumb western ATM.

[sbk]

Excuse me, but you are saying that the ability to lie well and cleverly is what? a good thing? That the person who gets fleeced is stupid but the person who does the fleecing is stupider?

[F1fanatic]

sbk, on 2009-04-21 19:20:23, said:

Excuse me, but you are saying that the ability to lie well and cleverly is what? a good thing? That the person who gets fleeced is stupid but the person who does the fleecing is stupider?

Yes, its funny but we hear it so many times. And they've no idea that the true stupidity reflects on them, not the woman who took their money!

[Shotime]

I agree his use of words is obnoxious, but he's not saying that the ability to lie well and cleverly is anything. Just that they're lousy liars. Liars are never good.

The person who gets fleeced is stupid or doesn't care, and the person who does the fleecing is lucky they found someone stupider than them or doesn't care. So, yes, he's saying the person who does the fleecing is lucky and stupid. Probably stupider than the poor sap letting himself be fleeced. Smartness isn't that much of a factor in these situations. It's deeper than that.

The rest of it is a moronic viewpoint of "give them a fish, and they'll have nothing. Teach them to fish, and they'll have fishes." Which has some truth to it.

[Ta22]

i do not agree with many part of the post .

assuming you think you are rich . and thai is alway in help .

mabe the kinda of girl you hang out is just found from the wrong place or seriously only reflect a group of thai girl that target farang . all i can say is the average thai girl . that i met is more hard working then most of the - girl i read up on the forum most of the time .

i think is cos most good girl would had their man happily away from such forum .. and those with problem .. usually had too much time in hand and end up in forum ranting their deed.

--

i date alot of girls and had alot of girl in thailand . with all respect . keep it simple . and aviod all kinda relationship /

i will alway pay within my reach and question little . about how there going to spend it .
if i am going to cry over the money i give . or question . how tere spend it . i would just say NO .
and not give anything .

i see a common cycle . of how thai girl . make up all kinda story to get money from farang .

sometime i ponder , if yo are going to look for a lady who can't take care of herself and need to lich on you to even pay her rental .

what are you putting all this up for ? for the Sex ? or for the simple joy of being able to keep a thai lady at home .

face it .. sometime is better to just . pay for service then think you are getting a free service bit end up paying from your nose .

make the relationship very clear and simple . if you going to get a girl in thailand that speak great english and work in a bar . chances is you are in for a ride .

- look at it . from 9,000 to 750 baht milk . is really small money . i spend more in a karaoke . in one night .

the one mistake most guy made in a money sucking relationship is cos there lie to one self .

---
don't lie to yourself . cos yo end up suffering for it .

- cut short and you spend less . if you want to marry a accountant you should look for an accountant not a big boobs english speaking thai girl with hotpant

Edited by Ta22, 2009-04-22 00:45:00.