191 replies to this topic
Posted 2005-02-03 16:57:06
Virgil, on 2005-02-03 16:48:26, said: No. I wouldn't ask what people earn. I wouldn't ask about mortgage repayments, insurance, investments, cost of the car, what my business turns over and how much tax is paid .... and I don't tell people those things either. I'm happy to talk about the actual work I do, describe the house I live in, the colour of my car (silver) and the fact that I believe it is wise to have private health cover. But that's about it.
Virg'
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I know.. but this is asia, and people here do ask those things. Not to be nosey..its just their way of making conversation. Just try not to take it as personally as you would if another Aussie did. Try and meet them halfway. It will be appreciated by both Ae and her parents. 
cv
Posted 2005-02-03 17:40:53
Yes Virg
Many here are on the game.
For all sorts of reasons.
Many are students who cant live on what the family can afford to send them
Some get caught up with loser boyfriends.
But they are still thai
The Temple is ok,but no real friendships made there.
Beware the language schools,many sleazy middle easterners target the pretty asian girls.
Songkraan aT darling harbour is pretty tame.
Thai Society here in Syd is pretty snobby .....ie the business and restaurant owners are way up themselves.
My ladies daughter is 20 and has a lot of thai friends from all levels of the social stratum of Thai gal in Sydney.
My hunny just turned 41 and pretty much knows the scene
Happy to help.
Fact
AE will like sydney better if she can eat thai food ,see thai videos and have some thai friends.....unless she is incredibly and I mean incredibly independant.
This is based on my 5 year experience in the community here.
Most important advice I can give you.
DO NOT EVER TAKE HER TO THE CASINO
Seriously that place has broken more marriages,relationships and bank accounts than any other thing i have seen here.
Virgil, on 2005-02-03 09:32:31, said: snoophound, on 2005-02-03 14:34:59, said: Just a few thoughts that hopefuly arent too much of a ramble.
Maybe worth thinking from the parents side.
The Parents worked hard to put her thru uni??
How old are they?
Are there other useful brothers or sisters to help look after them?
Thai parents invest in their kids so they can take over the business if wealthy or look after them in old age.
Whipping the daughter off to OZ may be upsetting to them.
Get AE over to aust for three mths and dont marry her!
See if she can genuinely cope with living here.
If you are in Sydney need help with meeting some thai gals for her to som tam with here let me know.
My lady knows heaps ,and has one sister here and has had one other sister visit recently....she didnt like it ,they love it and would never go back to thailand.
Talk thru with AE these family expectations,dowry sure ,but dont forget you will be seen as wealthy falang ,make sure you set expectations up front regarding ongoing money back home,the requests WILL come.
Spend the three mths ,let her go home,and think about things,you need to cool off and think about things too.
Sure lovely to look at,great sex,but do you have a real connection?
What will she do if she comes back to stay?
DO you ,Does she want kids?
The more work you put in up front the easier it will be..
Finally the visa.
Keep records of everything now
Phone calls
Emails
Photos
You will need to show about 6 mths or more to make the ghouls at oz embassy happy.
Thanks for the reply mate ... is good. Her parents are in their late 40's. Both are school teachers. Her mother told me that they will each get 250,000bt if they retire when they are 50. More if they work longer. They own several parcels of land, each costing around 200,000bt. No doubt, they are paying the bank for these. They have a small farm where they grow rice. They have about 6 cows and are building up stock ... 4 had calfs this year. I think they are pretty well looked after financially. They have 3 other daughters ... the youngest would also like to live in Oz ... and gives me no end of cheek when I'm there.
I am worried about her meeting other Thais here in Oz ... there has been some bad press regarding Thai girls working in the wrong industry .... I used to share an office suite with an Immigration Lawyer who specialises in asian immigration. He was forever trying to get passports back for "unlucky" Thai girls who wanted to return home ... but that's another story.
I was planning to take her to the Temple in Annandale. And to the Thai new year festival at Darling Harbour ... hopefully she will meet some good people there.
Snoophound ... the sex is a small part of the equation and didn't feature in my first trip to Thailand. We have the same wicked sense of humour and love for dancing. We like the same movies and same music. There is no point in her bringing any of her CD's ... I've got most of them ... and they ain't cheap pirates either ... haha ...
Ae will have a degree in Business English ... she will have 3 months work experience in hotel management too. She wants to work in the travel / hospitality industry.
Her 3 months here will include 2 months at a full time english school in Ultimo. It will be just like going to work ... hopefully ... we will be having a normal life ... well, as normal as we can, apart from the Easter and Anzac long weekends.
Thanks for your advice.
Virg'
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Posted 2005-02-03 22:11:42
Virgil, on 2005-02-03 16:48:26, said: No. I wouldn't ask what people earn. I wouldn't ask about mortgage repayments, insurance, investments, cost of the car, what my business turns over and how much tax is paid .... and I don't tell people those things either. I'm happy to talk about the actual work I do, describe the house I live in, the colour of my car (silver) and the fact that I believe it is wise to have private health cover. But that's about it.
Virg'
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Thais tend to very nosey. I will always answer their questions politely but without actually telling them. IE "How much is your salary" answer "not as much as I would like it to be."
They save face, you maintain your privacy.
Posted 2005-02-04 03:49:46
Virgil, on 2005-02-03 09:02:45, said: SoCal, on 2005-02-03 05:43:45, said: Virgil, on 2005-02-02 13:28:22, said: Her parents pay for Ae's Uni fees and dorm.
Ae's current position is that her mother always thinks about herself and never thinks about Ae.
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Did Ae ever stop to appreciate the sacrifices her parents have made for her?
Have you?
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Yes mate, I have had that discussion with her ... on several occasions. But then, isn't that what parenting is about? My parents made the same concessions for me - they sent me to a private school but never had a new car ... never.
In my opinion, it's a parent's duty to do the best that they can do for their children:- spiritually, morally, socially and economically.
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Virgil,
In Thailand it is the child's duty to see after their parents.
If she is as good as you say, and everything works out in AUS, then I think you will find this dowry a small price to pay. Her mother already says you will get most back, so clarify what most is, and when exactly you will get it back.
My view is that marrying an asian girl is often a lot of sacrifice, but a sacrifice that is well worth it given the years of having a loving partner, if the girl is indeed who you think she is.
Best of luck on your journey, and as pointed out earlier, doccument everything for the embassy should you decide to take the leap.
Nick
Posted 2005-02-05 13:15:01
I think you have got some good advice!
Particularly as she is an ordinary person..ie not bar girl..as a lot of stuff here relates to, I am sure you should proceed as though she was an Oz girl or whoever you met and liked. Surely you must spend a lot more time together to know each other?
But there are some complicating factors for you, her and the family.
You could get married in Oz and that would sort the legal bit...and then if you/she want a Thai ceremony that is fine and you would not need to go to the Amphur to register the marriage etc.
If the parents are teachers in a small town they probably do think they need to preserve face....if there are other farang married to girls in the town, were they bar girls..the parents wouuld want to distance themselves from that.
We are not talking dowries..we are talking bride-price 'kha sin sort'. The price quoted is probably about right. In gold, and yes should for the most part be returnable..it is not that much and if it was clear you were giving most of it to Ae..good.
What is Mama's proposal...you don't say?
Also when you stayed in Issan..where did you stay...were you sleeping with Ae...if so the family will know and will think you should be paying..honouring a commitment...
Read Chris Lyttleton's Chapter ..Changing The Rules: Shifting Bounds of Adolescent Sexuality in Thailand..in Jackson,P.A and Cook, N.M Silkworm Books Chiang Mai 1999
But caveat emptor!! and you are making a purchase in Thai eyes, because however much love marriage is still a matter of material support, often for an extended number of people, in rural Thailand.
You must be absolutely sure there are no Thai boys hanging around, let alone farang...that requires more than 6 weeks in Issan and 3 months in Oz....
And no...western culture..what is that? Expenses?..Your choice!
Also few 'good' Thai girls would start, let alone go that far down the Internet!
I could go on....Good Luck!
Posted 2005-02-05 13:53:47
  I'm sure that I will ask her to marry me.
that's perfectly ok, but you should think about the recommendations given to give it a try first, and wait at least her spendin some time with you in oz
therefore, wedding : where, when, dowry .... are not so pressing points right now!
5. What would happen if I put my foot down and set the limit that I would pay ... non-negotiable? Would love conquer all?
what about letting the family know, bit by bit, that her staying in oz... costed a lot, and you don't have much money anymore - wait for the reaction!, but don't "put your foot down... nonnegotiable" - someone would loose face! (you or them , both not good!)
and pay for Ae's Uni fees and dorm.
it has been said, that in LOS children have the duty to support their parents.
as it looks, they are in a pretty good position, therefore not much requests should be forthcoming later, and that is more important, than some 5k more or less for the wedding.
to add it up, "just take it easy, enjoy her being with you in oz, all the beest for your future wedding, and maybe we have a beer sometime in isaan?
Posted 2005-02-05 21:01:01
I didn't pay a dowery per se, but I've sent $200-$250 to support the village relatives every month for over 29 years now. Do the math! 
Posted 2005-02-05 21:58:44
Virgil, on 2005-02-03 16:11:11, said: mbkudu, on 2005-02-03 14:32:08, said: What ever he's going to pay is probably not all that bad. People who think a dowry is not important are just being cheap. If you want to know what a pay out is really like, don't marry a rural Thai farm girl; marry a middle class Chinese girl. You'll really feel the hurt in your wallet then. 
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No, it's not about being cheap mate. It's not that at all. I earn the money. I will decide how it's spent. That's what it is. I choose to spend it on flying Ae out her for 3 months. I choose to spend it on $2,500 worth of English lessons. I will choose to spend it on a nice engagement ring and honeymoon in Europe (if we can swing the visas for her). I do not choose to spend my money supporting her family or extended family, some of whom have already expressed an interest in what I do, what I earn and what I own. There is a marked difference between being tight with your money and being smart with it. I will probably pay a dowry, once I establish what is fair and reasonable.
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I did not read this before....I think you need to really wise up...You don't just marry a girl in Thailand..you marry her family...there will always be an issue, at least because of the difference in Incomes, about your role as a 'supporter of the family'.If you marry and then she has work and Ae has money of her own she will feel obligated to support her family to some extent.
And this thing about your money...in Thailand you can go into a restaurant and ask the boss how much she pays in rent, how much she earns, how much she takes a day...it is normal....no secrets about ordinary money like in Oz, UK.
Posted 2005-02-06 19:18:51
srisatch, on 2005-02-05 17:15:01, said: I think you have got some good advice!
Particularly as she is an ordinary person..ie not bar girl..as a lot of stuff here relates to, I am sure you should proceed as though she was an Oz girl or whoever you met and liked. Surely you must spend a lot more time together to know each other?
But there are some complicating factors for you, her and the family.
You could get married in Oz and that would sort the legal bit...and then if you/she want a Thai ceremony that is fine and you would not need to go to the Amphur to register the marriage etc.
If the parents are teachers in a small town they probably do think they need to preserve face....if there are other farang married to girls in the town, were they bar girls..the parents wouuld want to distance themselves from that.
We are not talking dowries..we are talking bride-price 'kha sin sort'. The price quoted is probably about right. In gold, and yes should for the most part be returnable..it is not that much and if it was clear you were giving most of it to Ae..good.
What is Mama's proposal...you don't say?
Also when you stayed in Issan..where did you stay...were you sleeping with Ae...if so the family will know and will think you should be paying..honouring a commitment...
Read Chris Lyttleton's Chapter ..Changing The Rules: Shifting Bounds of Adolescent Sexuality in Thailand..in Jackson,P.A and Cook, N.M Silkworm Books Chiang Mai 1999
But caveat emptor!! and you are making a purchase in Thai eyes, because however much love marriage is still a matter of material support, often for an extended number of people, in rural Thailand.
You must be absolutely sure there are no Thai boys hanging around, let alone farang...that requires more than 6 weeks in Issan and 3 months in Oz....
And no...western culture..what is that? Expenses?..Your choice!
Also few 'good' Thai girls would start, let alone go that far down the Internet!
I could go on....Good Luck!
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Yes, please, do go on..... We are spending as much time together as we can. If telephone and internet (webcam) count, it is running at 3 hours per day. When I was in Thailand I stayed in Ae's room, with her. Everyone in the town knows that we're sleeping together. I talked with her parents about this on the first evening. They said it was up to Ae.
I don't want to get married in OZ .... she has always wanted a Thai wedding and I'm happy with that.
Her mother's proposal .... 600,000bt. To cover everything, including the expenses of the wedding. This seems like an aweful lot to me. Any comments?
Yes, her cousin met a farang while working in BKK .... the family is reluctant to talk about her cousin's job in BKK .... I sort of put 2 and 2 together, but have kept it to myself.
"Also few 'good' Thai girls would start, let alone go that far down the Internet!" .... ok, enlighten me here ... do you think Ae might have spent time in "the wrong profession"? She is certainly "liberal" and admits to having had a farang boyfriend in 1993. I'd like to know your thoughts on girls on the internet etc.
Cheers
Virg
Posted 2005-02-06 19:24:34
srisatch, on 2005-02-06 01:58:44, said: I did not read this before....I think you need to really wise up...You don't just marry a girl in Thailand..you marry her family...there will always be an issue, at least because of the difference in Incomes, about your role as a 'supporter of the family'.If you marry and then she has work and Ae has money of her own she will feel obligated to support her family to some extent.
And this thing about your money...in Thailand you can go into a restaurant and ask the boss how much she pays in rent, how much she earns, how much she takes a day...it is normal....no secrets about ordinary money like in Oz, UK.
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Sure mate ... Ae and I have already discussed this. I accept the Thai way of life. No matter where we live I am prepared to go 50/50 with cultural issues. We plan to send money back every month. At this stage, around 10,000bt ... I think that is pretty reasonable.
Also, any year we don't fly to Thailand we will pay for someone (family or friend) to fly to OZ for a holiday. Especally if/when we have children. I expect to have the mother-in-law in town for around 3 months.
I don't have any problem with these things. They are fair in my eyes.
Posted 2005-02-06 19:51:48
Virgil, on 2005-02-02 20:28:22, said: 1. What would you consider to be a fair dowry for a Uni graduate who's parents are primary school teachers in rural thailand?
I have heard of dowrys from 30,000 up to 1million plus baht depending upon the status of the family. I would think that 100,000 would be a fair amount
2. Is the dowry something that is negotiable?
Dowrys are negotiable, but are mainly given to "give face" to the parents of the bride. I have heard of many dowrys being returned to the groom after the wedding, so this might be an option. Remember that dowry will always be a talking point among the guests at a village wedding and to a lesser extent a city wedding. It will give the family some bragging rights in a very materialisit society!
3. Ae's mother claims that she will give most of the dowry back to us after the wedding. Have any of you had a similar experience in this regard? Why is a little bell ringing in the deep, dark, recesses of my mind?
Yes .. be careful of this!
4. What are the typical costs associated with a country wedding ... in Isaan?
Can cost anything from around 50,000 baht to 500,000 baht depending on the number of guests and level of entertainment provided!
5. What would happen if I put my foot down and set the limit that I would pay ... non-negotiable? Would love conquer all?
I dont believe in given one, but to give face to the brides family then a returnable one should be the option!
6. Why does everything have to be "Thai Style"? Don't westerners have a culture? Has anyone tried to go 50/50 .... I believe it's called ha-sip ha-sip? What would happen if I insisted on some of the western traditions?
You could let them know that in Western Culture the brides family usually forks out for the majority of the wedding costs. 50/50 then becomes a fairer option!
7. Shouldn't they consider that I do all the travelling, and will have to pay for Ae to come to Oz, and future trips, phone bills and the like? Doesn't this enter into the equation at all?
Probably doesnt enter into the equation.
Good Luck mate!
Virg'
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Posted 2005-02-07 04:51:46
Her mother's proposal .... 600,000bt. To cover everything, including the expenses of the wedding. This seems like an aweful lot to me. Any comments?
600k jeez thats some wedding and dowry
you are being skinned.
thirty k au???
Well yo would pay that for a large wedding in aus i guess.
Up to you
But be careful when you open that wallet once they will open it for you again,
10k a mth is reas to send back home.
Just make sure thats it, theirs always a doctors bill or something that happens to one or other of the family and its not a loan.
trt, on 2005-02-06 12:51:48, said: Virgil, on 2005-02-02 20:28:22, said:
1. What would you consider to be a fair dowry for a Uni graduate who's parents are primary school teachers in rural thailand?
I have heard of dowrys from 30,000 up to 1million plus baht depending upon the status of the family. I would think that 100,000 would be a fair amount
2. Is the dowry something that is negotiable?
Dowrys are negotiable, but are mainly given to "give face" to the parents of the bride. I have heard of many dowrys being returned to the groom after the wedding, so this might be an option. Remember that dowry will always be a talking point among the guests at a village wedding and to a lesser extent a city wedding. It will give the family some bragging rights in a very materialisit society!
3. Ae's mother claims that she will give most of the dowry back to us after the wedding. Have any of you had a similar experience in this regard? Why is a little bell ringing in the deep, dark, recesses of my mind?
Yes .. be careful of this!
4. What are the typical costs associated with a country wedding ... in Isaan?
Can cost anything from around 50,000 baht to 500,000 baht depending on the number of guests and level of entertainment provided!
5. What would happen if I put my foot down and set the limit that I would pay ... non-negotiable? Would love conquer all?
I dont believe in given one, but to give face to the brides family then a returnable one should be the option!
6. Why does everything have to be "Thai Style"? Don't westerners have a culture? Has anyone tried to go 50/50 .... I believe it's called ha-sip ha-sip? What would happen if I insisted on some of the western traditions?
You could let them know that in Western Culture the brides family usually forks out for the majority of the wedding costs. 50/50 then becomes a fairer option!
7. Shouldn't they consider that I do all the travelling, and will have to pay for Ae to come to Oz, and future trips, phone bills and the like? Doesn't this enter into the equation at all?
Probably doesnt enter into the equation.
Good Luck mate!
Virg'
<{POST_SNAPBACK}> <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Posted 2005-02-07 15:27:50
Virgil, on 2005-02-06 19:18:51, said: srisatch, on 2005-02-05 17:15:01, said: I think you have got some good advice!
Particularly as she is an ordinary person..ie not bar girl..as a lot of stuff here relates to, I am sure you should proceed as though she was an Oz girl or whoever you met and liked. Surely you must spend a lot more time together to know each other?
But there are some complicating factors for you, her and the family.
You could get married in Oz and that would sort the legal bit...and then if you/she want a Thai ceremony that is fine and you would not need to go to the Amphur to register the marriage etc.
If the parents are teachers in a small town they probably do think they need to preserve face....if there are other farang married to girls in the town, were they bar girls..the parents wouuld want to distance themselves from that.
We are not talking dowries..we are talking bride-price 'kha sin sort'. The price quoted is probably about right. In gold, and yes should for the most part be returnable..it is not that much and if it was clear you were giving most of it to Ae..good.
What is Mama's proposal...you don't say?
Also when you stayed in Issan..where did you stay...were you sleeping with Ae...if so the family will know and will think you should be paying..honouring a commitment...
Read Chris Lyttleton's Chapter ..Changing The Rules: Shifting Bounds of Adolescent Sexuality in Thailand..in Jackson,P.A and Cook, N.M Silkworm Books Chiang Mai 1999
But caveat emptor!! and you are making a purchase in Thai eyes, because however much love marriage is still a matter of material support, often for an extended number of people, in rural Thailand.
You must be absolutely sure there are no Thai boys hanging around, let alone farang...that requires more than 6 weeks in Issan and 3 months in Oz....
And no...western culture..what is that? Expenses?..Your choice!
Also few 'good' Thai girls would start, let alone go that far down the Internet!
I could go on....Good Luck!
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Yes, please, do go on..... We are spending as much time together as we can. If telephone and internet (webcam) count, it is running at 3 hours per day. When I was in Thailand I stayed in Ae's room, with her. Everyone in the town knows that we're sleeping together. I talked with her parents about this on the first evening. They said it was up to Ae.
I don't want to get married in OZ .... she has always wanted a Thai wedding and I'm happy with that.
Her mother's proposal .... 600,000bt. To cover everything, including the expenses of the wedding. This seems like an aweful lot to me. Any comments?
Yes, her cousin met a farang while working in BKK .... the family is reluctant to talk about her cousin's job in BKK .... I sort of put 2 and 2 together, but have kept it to myself.
"Also few 'good' Thai girls would start, let alone go that far down the Internet!" .... ok, enlighten me here ... do you think Ae might have spent time in "the wrong profession"? She is certainly "liberal" and admits to having had a farang boyfriend in 1993. I'd like to know your thoughts on girls on the internet etc.
Cheers
Virg
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Just a quickie...More later
600,000B is loopy, no not loopy...on another planet..........
How on earth did she come up with that figure?
Gets worse....
About the cousin...and then the farang boyfriend.....there is no such thing as a middle class ie teacher parents/liberal, university educated Thai Girl with farang boyfriends in 1993.....1993..I don't think you ever said how old she is....I would like someone else's view on that!?
Without revealing all or anything...maybe which Jangwat are we in? With a University? What is a degree in Business English? Ho Hum!? Not on offer at ANU, or Monas, I fear I think you should go back to square one.....and save on the phone bills.
Don't get me wrong...all power to love and you...but sounds like you are in the wood!
Do not move without the Expat Daddies' permission!!!!
Posted 2005-02-07 19:07:07
srisatch, on 2005-02-07 19:27:50, said: Just a quickie...More later
600,000B is loopy, no not loopy...on another planet..........
How on earth did she come up with that figure?
Gets worse....
About the cousin...and then the farang boyfriend.....there is no such thing as a middle class ie teacher parents/liberal, university educated Thai Girl with farang boyfriends in 1993.....1993..I don't think you ever said how old she is....I would like someone else's view on that!?
Without revealing all or anything...maybe which Jangwat are we in? With a University? What is a degree in Business English? Ho Hum!? Not on offer at ANU, or Monas, I fear I think you should go back to square one.....and save on the phone bills.
Don't get me wrong...all power to love and you...but sounds like you are in the wood!
Do not move without the Expat Daddies' permission!!!!
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>
My mistake ..... farang boyfriend was 2003 ... it was too late at night for me. Ae is only 21. He was American. Used to fly into town every few weeks.
Yes, I think 600,000 is crazy. I won't stand for it. I was going to write to her mother and negotiate directly with her. I was going to suggest 50,000 for the wedding and 50,000 bride price. Ae told me that her brother-in-law paid 200,000 and that her mother gave most of it back. I thought that if they need to show face they can borrow some of their own money to make themselves look good .... is this unreasonable on my part?
OK, I'd like some comments about the social ladder in Thailand, if I could. Ae's parents are both primary school teachers. She claims they are important in the town and that everyone can know them. Therefore they must have face if I am to marry their daughter. Is this true? Important?
Yes, I am in the wood ... and that's why I'm talking to all you "expat daddies".
I was going to write to her mother and propose the above 50,000/50,000 ... along with 10,000 per month once Ae starts work and to continue for as long as we can aford .... along with one trip to Oz for her mother each time a baby comes along and one trip for Ae's youngest sister to study here for a year ... in about 4 years time. I thought that is a more appropriate dowry than paying a huge sum of money that Ae's aunts and uncles are going to piss up a wall ..... they all drink whisky like water.
Any other thoughts?
Dump the girl? Mate, I am in love. I think Ae is too. It is now about 10 days since she's talked with her mother .... but then, that might all be part of the game, right?
Please comment, all and sundry
Virg'
Posted 2005-02-07 19:41:21
Virgil, on 2005-02-07 19:07:07, said: srisatch, on 2005-02-07 19:27:50, said:
Just a quickie...More later
600,000B is loopy, no not loopy...on another planet..........
How on earth did she come up with that figure?
Gets worse....
About the cousin...and then the farang boyfriend.....there is no such thing as a middle class ie teacher parents/liberal, university educated Thai Girl with farang boyfriends in 1993.....1993..I don't think you ever said how old she is....I would like someone else's view on that!?
Without revealing all or anything...maybe which Jangwat are we in? With a University? What is a degree in Business English? Ho Hum!? Not on offer at ANU, or Monas, I fear I think you should go back to square one.....and save on the phone bills.
Don't get me wrong...all power to love and you...but sounds like you are in the wood!
Do not move without the Expat Daddies' permission!!!!
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>
My mistake ..... farang boyfriend was 2003 ... it was too late at night for me. Ae is only 21. He was American. Used to fly into town every few weeks.
Yes, I think 600,000 is crazy. I won't stand for it. I was going to write to her mother and negotiate directly with her. I was going to suggest 50,000 for the wedding and 50,000 bride price. Ae told me that her brother-in-law paid 200,000 and that her mother gave most of it back. I thought that if they need to show face they can borrow some of their own money to make themselves look good .... is this unreasonable on my part?
OK, I'd like some comments about the social ladder in Thailand, if I could. Ae's parents are both primary school teachers. She claims they are important in the town and that everyone can know them. Therefore they must have face if I am to marry their daughter. Is this true? Important?
Yes, I am in the wood ... and that's why I'm talking to all you "expat daddies".
I was going to write to her mother and propose the above 50,000/50,000 ... along with 10,000 per month once Ae starts work and to continue for as long as we can aford .... along with one trip to Oz for her mother each time a baby comes along and one trip for Ae's youngest sister to study here for a year ... in about 4 years time. I thought that is a more appropriate dowry than paying a huge sum of money that Ae's aunts and uncles are going to piss up a wall ..... they all drink whisky like water.
Any other thoughts?
Dump the girl? Mate, I am in love. I think Ae is too. It is now about 10 days since she's talked with her mother .... but then, that might all be part of the game, right?
Please comment, all and sundry
Virg'
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>
MMmmmm...Fly into town? well that narrows it down a bit
I really do not want to sound like a bucket of cold water...and I guess my views are known to others here....and I have stuck my scrawny neck out here into your business, which is none of mine...but you did ASK!!
I would like, for the most part, to wait and see what any one else has to say.....
But.....what would I do now?...I would not have known how to do it 15 years ago......I came to Thailand a complete novice...it took me 10 years to meet my wife and in so doing I had to progress from Patong Bar Girls to Chinese Hi-So and back to the Thai Middle Class.....
Really truthful summary of what you have here...you know lots more than I/We do..you now just let slip the bit about alcoholic relatives...this is a common problem.with Issan poor...but should not be so with teachers........
I would for a start ask myself reality questions about everything I thought was important...ie Do I actually, with evidence, know the truth......and of course you can add Do I Care!?
It sounds to me as you go on that you are in the classic Issan dilemma...you met a girl you think is fantastic; you have not the slightest clue about the reality of her and her family's life..except what they tell you, allow you to see..and what you thought you saw or heard.....and wish to think.
If you were her..you would sound like a dream come true....
Without wishing to be brutal...the daughter of Issan teachers sleeping..was she? or even being the 'boyfriend' ..with an..one??.. American when she was 19..is not good news for you unless she has a VERY plausible explanation...being 'liberal' definitely does not count.....then move on...If she had a US boyfriend..and the parents knew...she is in Issan Bride Price Terms...Used Goods...which makes 600,000 even more loopy
Guess you hoped this was simple?!
Take care
S
Posted 2005-02-08 19:32:36
Virgil,
There is a lot of good advice here and I would certainly agree you should spend more time with the girl before you jump in.
I would also recommend you purchase and read the book
"Thailand Fever - A Road map for Thai-Western Relationships".
http://www.dcothai.c...products_id=521
Cheers
John
Posted 2005-02-09 09:27:55
Virgil, on 2005-02-02 20:28:22, said: Gentlemen,
I am new to the Forum and new to Thailand. A year ago, almost to the day, I met a Thai girl on the internet. Needless to say, I fell in love. Over an hour a day with the web-cam and over an hour a night on the phone lead me to Thailand in October and again over Christmas.
I've spent six weeks with her family, who are wonderful. The girl is perfect, but you guys know that already, right? Her parents are both teachers and speak basic English ... read "basic". She, "Ae" (not her real nickname) studies Business English at a Uni in Isaan. Her English is good enough to speak with my parents and brother. My family chats with her on line occasionally. I would say that things have been progressing well. Ae will be visiting me in Australia next month and staying until the end of May.
I'm sure that I will ask her to marry me. Yes, I'm hooked on her charm, beauty and love. We can't get enough of each other and I stay up too late every night chatting to Ae on the phone.
Now! The problem is this, cost of the wedding. Ae is from a small town. Everyone in the town knows her, her family, and me. But I know nothing about Thai wedding customs. I've bought a book called Culture Shock Thailand, but it is not very useful. Ae's mother has put forward a proposition which both Ae and I consider outrageous. Frankly, it would be cheaper to marry in Australia and we are considering it. However, I love the family and Ae would still like a traditional style wedding. I'd like to offer that to her.
So, I have some questions that I hope can be answered by you experienced farang expats to set my mind at ease:
1. What would you consider to be a fair dowry for a Uni graduate who's parents are primary school teachers in rural thailand?
2. Is the dowry something that is negotiable?
3. Ae's mother claims that she will give most of the dowry back to us after the wedding. Have any of you had a similar experience in this regard? Why is a little bell ringing in the deep, dark, recesses of my mind?
4. What are the typical costs associated with a country wedding ... in Isaan?
5. What would happen if I put my foot down and set the limit that I would pay ... non-negotiable? Would love conquer all?
6. Why does everything have to be "Thai Style"? Don't westerners have a culture? Has anyone tried to go 50/50 .... I believe it's called ha-sip ha-sip? What would happen if I insisted on some of the western traditions?
7. Shouldn't they consider that I do all the travelling, and will have to pay for Ae to come to Oz, and future trips, phone bills and the like? Doesn't this enter into the equation at all?
A bit about me: 38, fit, professional with my own business, house and car. Never planned to meet a Thai girl ... it just happened. Not supporting Ae financially, except for when she arrives her for three months. Married before. Divorced 5 years ago.
A bit about Ae: calls me everyday. 21, vivacous Uni student. Always wanted to marry a farang and would like to live in Oz. Has no assets. Her parents have their house, a farm, about a dozen cows, pigs, chickens, the manditory Hi-Lux, 3 motorbikes and pay for Ae's Uni fees and dorm.
Ae is annoyed about her mother's proposition and hasn't spoken to her mother for over a week. Her mother is normally on line to chat with me ... but not this week. Ae's current position is that her mother always thinks about herself and never thinks about Ae. She thinks the dowry is too much (so do I) and is frightened that the issue is going to end the relationship. It won't. I'm not a rich man, but I can afford what they are asking. The question is SHOULD I pay?
Gentlemen, I fear my ship is sailing too close to the wind and am in need of a good pilot on this one. Any input or advice would be most welcome either here or via email.
Thanks
Virg'
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Posted 2005-02-09 09:29:28
Virgil, on 2005-02-02 20:28:22, said: Gentlemen,
I am new to the Forum and new to Thailand. A year ago, almost to the day, I met a Thai girl on the internet. Needless to say, I fell in love. Over an hour a day with the web-cam and over an hour a night on the phone lead me to Thailand in October and again over Christmas.
I've spent six weeks with her family, who are wonderful. The girl is perfect, but you guys know that already, right? Her parents are both teachers and speak basic English ... read "basic". She, "Ae" (not her real nickname) studies Business English at a Uni in Isaan. Her English is good enough to speak with my parents and brother. My family chats with her on line occasionally. I would say that things have been progressing well. Ae will be visiting me in Australia next month and staying until the end of May.
I'm sure that I will ask her to marry me. Yes, I'm hooked on her charm, beauty and love. We can't get enough of each other and I stay up too late every night chatting to Ae on the phone.
Now! The problem is this, cost of the wedding. Ae is from a small town. Everyone in the town knows her, her family, and me. But I know nothing about Thai wedding customs. I've bought a book called Culture Shock Thailand, but it is not very useful. Ae's mother has put forward a proposition which both Ae and I consider outrageous. Frankly, it would be cheaper to marry in Australia and we are considering it. However, I love the family and Ae would still like a traditional style wedding. I'd like to offer that to her.
So, I have some questions that I hope can be answered by you experienced farang expats to set my mind at ease:
1. What would you consider to be a fair dowry for a Uni graduate who's parents are primary school teachers in rural thailand?
2. Is the dowry something that is negotiable?
3. Ae's mother claims that she will give most of the dowry back to us after the wedding. Have any of you had a similar experience in this regard? Why is a little bell ringing in the deep, dark, recesses of my mind?
4. What are the typical costs associated with a country wedding ... in Isaan?
5. What would happen if I put my foot down and set the limit that I would pay ... non-negotiable? Would love conquer all?
6. Why does everything have to be "Thai Style"? Don't westerners have a culture? Has anyone tried to go 50/50 .... I believe it's called ha-sip ha-sip? What would happen if I insisted on some of the western traditions?
7. Shouldn't they consider that I do all the travelling, and will have to pay for Ae to come to Oz, and future trips, phone bills and the like? Doesn't this enter into the equation at all?
A bit about me: 38, fit, professional with my own business, house and car. Never planned to meet a Thai girl ... it just happened. Not supporting Ae financially, except for when she arrives her for three months. Married before. Divorced 5 years ago.
A bit about Ae: calls me everyday. 21, vivacous Uni student. Always wanted to marry a farang and would like to live in Oz. Has no assets. Her parents have their house, a farm, about a dozen cows, pigs, chickens, the manditory Hi-Lux, 3 motorbikes and pay for Ae's Uni fees and dorm.
Ae is annoyed about her mother's proposition and hasn't spoken to her mother for over a week. Her mother is normally on line to chat with me ... but not this week. Ae's current position is that her mother always thinks about herself and never thinks about Ae. She thinks the dowry is too much (so do I) and is frightened that the issue is going to end the relationship. It won't. I'm not a rich man, but I can afford what they are asking. The question is SHOULD I pay?
Gentlemen, I fear my ship is sailing too close to the wind and am in need of a good pilot on this one. Any input or advice would be most welcome either here or via email.
Thanks
Virg'
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Posted 2005-02-09 11:06:56
Virgil
My wife was a uni graduate working in a high paying position when we met. She was "unspoilt" until I came on the scene. Not that "unspoilt" matters much in the uni crowd. Most of them tend to live more liberalised lives now.
The figure your future mum in law has suggested is a bit more than I was originally asked for as a dowry. I suggest you let Ae discuss that amount with her mum and come to a more sensible figure.
The deal my lady worked out with her family was a lot less than 400,000 + 1Baht gold. The money went on "show" at the ceremoney and the unused portion was returned to us.
Ae has had a previous relationship and is still studying. Ae is not earning money for her family. You are reducing their financial burden by marrying her and providing for her future education. You need to take these factors into account. Ae is the person who needs to do the dowry negotiations with her mother and she has to stress you both need the money for your future.
My circle of friends includes many university graduates, mainly health care professionals, teachers etc in Issan. The dowry situation I experienced has been the same with all of them. A large amount is shown at wedding time with the money minus wedding costs returned to the bride and groom afterwards.
The wedding costs can vary greatly as suggested in previous replies.
Don't fall into the trap of sending money each month. Her parents are teachers earning a very good wage. They don't need the money.
I hope this helps.
NL
Posted 2005-02-09 15:13:14
Virgil,
can you tell how exactly did you meet over Internet? I spoke with some girls and it seems like big fashion now - hanging on MSN, ICQ, Yahoo and other chat rooms. I don't know about success rate, but many found westerners over there, but the story is always the same - they had farang BF before, uni graduates, practicing English and looking for new friends around the world.
Don't you think 38 of you and 21 of her age is too big for sharing same interests as you said music, jokes etc.
give an example what kind of joke you laghed together - Mr. Bean movie ?
Get real, my advice.
Posted 2005-02-09 19:25:47
srisatch, on 2005-02-07 23:41:21, said: MMmmmm...Fly into town? well that narrows it down a bit
I really do not want to sound like a bucket of cold water...and I guess my views are known to others here....and I have stuck my scrawny neck out here into your business, which is none of mine...but you did ASK!!
I would like, for the most part, to wait and see what any one else has to say.....
But.....what would I do now?...I would not have known how to do it 15 years ago......I came to Thailand a complete novice...it took me 10 years to meet my wife and in so doing I had to progress from Patong Bar Girls to Chinese Hi-So and back to the Thai Middle Class.....
Really truthful summary of what you have here...you know lots more than I/We do..you now just let slip the bit about alcoholic relatives...this is a common problem.with Issan poor...but should not be so with teachers........
I would for a start ask myself reality questions about everything I thought was important...ie Do I actually, with evidence, know the truth......and of course you can add Do I Care!?
It sounds to me as you go on that you are in the classic Issan dilemma...you met a girl you think is fantastic; you have not the slightest clue about the reality of her and her family's life..except what they tell you, allow you to see..and what you thought you saw or heard.....and wish to think.
If you were her..you would sound like a dream come true....
Without wishing to be brutal...the daughter of Issan teachers sleeping..was she? or even being the 'boyfriend' ..with an..one??.. American when she was 19..is not good news for you unless she has a VERY plausible explanation...being 'liberal' definitely does not count.....then move on...If she had a US boyfriend..and the parents knew...she is in Issan Bride Price Terms...Used Goods...which makes 600,000 even more loopy
Guess you hoped this was simple?!
Take care
S
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Yes mate, your points are valid. Re: fly into town. Yes, the guy still lives in BKK ... he might very well be reading or even contributing to this topic. Who knows?
Your comments don't offend. The point of the topic is to learn what other people think. And what they've experienced. If I had a cry everytime someone tells me what they think where would I be?
Yes, the alcoholic relatives .... they're not teachers. Ae's family prefers to steer clear of that. They rarely drink and no one in the family smokes. A lot of Ae's relatives are farmers ... when they're not working they are smoking or drinking, it seems.
Yes again ... I believe that what I've seen is the truth. Even with regard to Ae's past relationship. Ae has told me all about it. Her mother knows as well. She had mentioned briefly on the internet that she never met the guy and didn't like him. I often chat with Ae's mother on the internet ... especially when Ae and her are having an argument.
Do I care that she's not a virgin? No. Would I care if she had been a bar girl or something? Yes. Certainly. But then, let me tell you a little personal truth: I married my childhood sweetheart who I'd known since I was 14 .... she left me for a guy with a fatter wallet after 8 years of marriage. A friend of mine met a girl on a Contiki cruise 12 years ago. He was 7 years older than her. She was 20. They spent 21 days together then he was back in Sydney. A month later she moved up from Melbourne and they married 3 months after that. 4 years later, when she was pregnant with their first child, he learned that she had worked in a classy brothel in Melbourne for 18 months .... seems that the past always catches up with you, doesn't it? .... They are still happily married, with 3 kids. It took him some time to get his head around it ... but now he laughs and says that he always wondered why the sex was so good.
Just to emphasise: NO, I would drop a gogo girl, bar girl or working girl like a hot potato .... not for me. I doubt Ae is any of those.
Back to the dowry .... 600,000 is loopy. It won't happen. Ae has already told me this. We are working on it.
Finally, yes, I had hoped this would be simple ... what ever happened to 2 sheep and a goat?
Cheers
Virg
Posted 2005-02-09 23:55:04
You have recieved some excellent advice on this thread. I hope you heed it. However, I think you have made your mind up already. The only thing i have to say to you is: C'mon dude, you have known this girl 6(!) weeks in real time. Please do not give me this webcam and phone call stuff, it is much different than real life. Would you marry a woman from melbourne that you knew 6 weeks? Up to you. Then again what do I know? You could end up having 27 grandchildren. Best of luck to you. But the part about you willing to go 50/50 on cultural issues, hehe....................
Posted 2005-02-11 05:59:05
You have recieved good advice,
Take your time, Rome wsn't built in a day.
Let me ask you this, Would you do the same if this lady was a native of your country?
Regards
Monkeypants
Posted 2005-02-11 09:31:53
[quote name='mattnich' date='2005-02-02 20:58:16']Vrigil, I will try to give my opinion.
Yes I am married to a Thai and yes I have done all of this.
[quote]1. What would you consider to be a fair dowry for a Uni graduate who's parents are primary school teachers in rural thailand?[/quote]
50,000 - 75,000 Baht plus pork and gold
[quote]2. Is the dowry something that is negotiable?[/quote]
Yes, but remember its a show. After the party is paid for, most of it should come back.
[We didn't get ours back. A theif came in the night and took it from mum-in-laws bedroom. How he knew to look under the matress is anyones guess.  We spent the next day in the police station.  We knew who did it( and it was an interloper) but could not get the money back.  He did time as well.
Just remember though the dowery reflects what the brides family have spent on the upbringing of their daughter. 
Posted 2005-02-13 07:01:51
Hi Virgil, I approve of the choice of forum name!
Forgive me but I have not fully read all other replies. In skimming the majority, I did not notice anyone play the part (often obligatory) of 'bastard cynic'. Seems it might be my turn ( I am usually more positive..)
You could possibly be about to make the biggest mistake of your life. Note the 'possibly', in that the probability it not 1. Infact, it's more probable that the probability of your relationship to Ae being less than 'honest' on her part is fairly low. That said, better and wiser men than you and I have had serious problems from 'relationships' that have begun in exactly the way you describe yours.
Now, I know very little details. You have said some but not alot, and there is much you could not easily communicate in this forum setting. I want to highlight some bits of what you have mentioned that, to the 'bastard cynic', might be interpreted as warning signs that this girl and her family, or just the family, or just the girl, are in some way just possibly taking advantage of you / her main interest may be financial and not heartfelt.
1) You met her on the internet.
2) She is considerably younger than you and has chosen to have reltionships with someone nearer her age (indicating she is not averse to her age group).
3) She has no assets and her parents paid her way through uni. The liklihood that she wants to pay them back sooner rather than later is very high.
4) You have only spent six weeks with the family yet they are very keen for marriage. In Thailand you do not marry a girl, you marry a Family. You need to know the family almost as well as the girl, and I mean *all* the family. However much she loves you, she will always love her family more. The sooner you accept that, the better.
You definitely need, I repeat need, to learn more about the culture you are marrying into. This might require time, money and effort to achieve, but the result will be worth it. Your question about social hierarchy is the most telling. When you get to the stage when you can answer that for yourself, you will know you are thinking in a more 'Thai' way and perhaps able to see why certain things are expected.
When a Thai mother asks you something that an Australian mother might also ask you, they do not mean the same thing, even if the transliteration is exact.
Wish you all the best, I have a hunch you will not experience any of the problems I implicit. Apologies for verbosity.
Edited by OxfordWill, 2005-02-13 07:02:54.
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