Prev Page 3 of 4 1 2 3 4 Next You cannot reply to this topic Go to first unread post 83 replies to this topic

[theoldgit]

slipperx, on 2009-08-01 20:46:27, said:

Well for a start 7by7 where people are being accosted by touts hanging around outside their office they could at least have some uniformed staff around, clearly ID'd to lessen the chance of being misled. They get enough out of the visa fees to employ a few extra people where the touts are plying their trade. I saw no uniformed VFS staff either in the lkobby or the waiting area. They could also increase signage and make it far clearer. It is not rocket science and can be tackled reasonably inexpensively. I believe they have a duty to do that.

I can only comment on what I have seen, there was certainly a large sign indicating where the office is when I have entered Regent House, and I certainly noticed uniformed VFS and their uniformed staff outside of their office, I personally thought they were pretty visible, though I have still noticed people walking past them and the entrance to VFS to go into the touts office.

[noel2499rk]

Sat outside the vfs office in regent house recently while me wife was inside applying for a tourist visa for her mum, I watched a succesion of English Thai couples walk straight past the entrance into the agents office. I was there for about three hours and in that time I saw seven couples ignore all the signs and get accosted by the agency staff.

Elsewhere in this thread it is said the vfs staff are clearly identified by their uniform but outside the office the staff are g4s security staff who wear a different uniform to the one in the picture on the website. I watched as people who were just about to talk to the g4s staff were steered into the agents office by the agency girls. It would be very easy for these g4s security to say something but they just stand there like statues for me I think they must be complicite in some way.

I got chatting to one couple he was around 60 from kent she was from somewhere in isaan, I watched them come and sit in the agents office for about half an hour, then the two of them came to sit outside while one of the agency staff took their application from inside the vfs office.

He told me he had already paid an agent 600 pound to fill out his tourist visa application for him so I asked him why he felt the need to use another agent. He told me his wife had done all the talking in the agents office I asked him how much it had cost he replyed he didn't know. I explained to him that he didn't need to use this agent and he could of just went into the vfs office himself but this just didn't register with him. I really tried to explain to him what was going on but he just kept saying " I dunno mate", "the missus deals with all that".
So i left him to his blissful ignorance he was either to stupid to grasp what was going on or he just didn't care.

As I understand it all visa appilcates have biometric data taken fingerprints, photos so how is it these agency people take the applications into the vfs office without the person applying? Everyone in the agency office was having their photo taken is vfs using these photos for the biometric data?

[katana]

So it seems once you're at the building, the scam agency make more effort (and are more successful?) in getting you into their office than the legitimate one, which seems a somewhat strange state of affairs.

[ThaiVisaExpress]

theoldgit, on 2009-08-01 23:12:14, said:

ThaiVisaExpress, on 2009-08-01 20:52:59, said:

I was in a restaurant when i over heard a conversation regarding UK/Vac. I got talking to an English guy he came up in the lift at Regent house and was greeted by the chubby girl who works for this company. Then he followed her into the office with his completed file paid her 20,000 baht plus the visa fee until i had spoken to him he was not aware he had been scammed !

I don't doubt what you say for a minute but I find it quite incredible that the chap you describe, who I would have thought would have researched the requirements, apparently meekly follows someone into a room and hands over an extra 20,000 Baht, not an insignificant sum of money.

What was his response when you told him, I presume you went back to the office with him.

Why would i go back to the office he had already been scammed for 20,000 baht what could i do his papers were with Visa world. The point he made was if he wanted an agent he would have looked for one himself but he wanted to do it himself, he actually believed this was the fee .

Its not a room it is a very large office and it looks the part.

[sumrit]

7by7, on 2009-08-01 22:47:47, said:

Whilst I feel sympathy with anyone scammed by any con merchant, the advice is quite simple.

If they are not in uniform, they are not VAC staff.

Issues of signage within the building have already been discussed.

Although I'm now back in the UK I've been to the VFS centre on several occasions over the past few months and the guy at the entrance handing out the tickets to
people DOESN'T wear a uniform (he just wears black trousers with a white shirt and NO ID BADGE) but he IS a member of VFS staff.

For those of us who've been to the VFS centre before it's easy to recognize the touts but for most people it's their first visit, and for them it's definately NOT clear where they should go and it's presisely those people the tout's are looking for.

Two/three years ago there was an independent government report on the VFS centre and the Embassy visa section. That report highlighted the lack of signage to the VFS centre and the problem of tout's 'highjacking' visa applicants because of it and stated changes needed to be made but to date the VFScentre/Embassy have done absolutely NOTHING to improve things.

While I agree people should read the info on the web sites and be wary of people approaching them the fact that the VFS/Embassy have been told officially their system isn't good enough and should be improved but have chosen to ignore it means they (are at least partly) responsible for people being scammed.

[Thongkorn]

I have been to Regent house before so i knew of the tricks from the scammers. I made my application on line, I got a date for submitting the visa application, I went to Regent house for 7.30 , so we could submit the file for a visa. and then be on our way for a 4 week holiday.When we arrived we was accosted by the staff of the office next door, they spoke to my partner ,they would not speak to me , so i spoke to them in Thai , i told them that we did not need there service, but i had to be quite forcefully with them, they do not understand the meaning of no thanks, the thing that got me was, one of the visa staff was stood next to me while this was going on,Why did they not intervene, Because they know the score. Also we went and sat on the seats that are on the right,just before the door, we were the fourth seats along, at about 8 o clock some Thai man obviously a visa agent , walked in with some Thai people and ask us to move, I just sat there as i had a 8 o clock appointment, as the doors opened he ushered them to the front , i walked past him and inquired about having an appointment, with that The staff from the visa office went outside and told every body who had an appointment to come forward as you could now book on line to save waiting. My partner went in and submitted her visa file . while she was inside for about an hour i had many people come up to me and start to ask questions about the visa application and asking me various questions had they done this right had they done that right ,I helped few , but all the time the staff from the office next door keept watching me , i just smiled at them , i though yes thats one back for me.

[7by7]

sumrit, on 2009-08-07 01:33:12, said:

the guy at the entrance handing out the tickets to
people DOESN'T wear a uniform (he just wears black trousers with a white shirt and NO ID BADGE) but he IS a member of VFS staff.

Point taken, but how often does he check applications, offer advice or ask for a fee?

Quote

Two/three years ago there was an independent government report on the VFS centre and the Embassy visa section. That report highlighted the lack of signage to the VFS centre and the problem of tout's 'highjacking' visa applicants because of it and stated changes needed to be made but to date the VFScentre/Embassy have done absolutely NOTHING to improve things

Other than the general comments I have made on signage, I cannot say how good or bad the signage is as I have never been there.

My sister-in-law has, and she found the right office without any problems (although, to be fair, I did warn her about the touts).

Also, the posts by theoldgit and noel2449rk above indicate that the signage is adequate or better.

Depends on each individual's perception, I guess.

Edited by 7by7, 2009-08-07 02:14:37.

[sumrit]

7by7, on 2009-08-07 02:12:44, said:

sumrit, on 2009-08-07 01:33:12, said:

the guy at the entrance handing out the tickets to
people DOESN'T wear a uniform (he just wears black trousers with a white shirt and NO ID BADGE) but he IS a member of VFS staff.

Point taken, but how often does he check applications, offer advice or ask for a fee?

Quote

Two/three years ago there was an independent government report on the VFS centre and the Embassy visa section. That report highlighted the lack of signage to the VFS centre and the problem of tout's 'highjacking' visa applicants because of it and stated changes needed to be made but to date the VFScentre/Embassy have done absolutely NOTHING to improve things

Other than the general comments I have made on signage, I cannot say how good or bad the signage is as I have never been there.

My sister-in-law has, and she found the right office without any problems (although, to be fair, I did warn her about the touts).

Also, the posts by theoldgit and noel2449rk above indicate that the signage is adequate or better.

Depends on each individual's perception, I guess.

Although the guy giving out tickets doesn't check applications he IS the first/only person you see when you first arrive, and with all the comments about VFS staff and uniforms I would have thought it was even more important for him to wear a uniform to show people where to go and they're in the right place. NOT wearing a uniform OR a badge can only add to to problem.

As for any comments theoldgit and noel2449rk have made about the signage being adequate I'll describe the only one there as you approach the VFS centre and you can made your own mind up/comment about it yourself. The sign itself is about twelve inches wide and eighteen inches high and is fixed on to a portable stand making the top of the sign about five feet from the ground. It is positioned to the right of the lobby area near the door to the adjoining gift shop. On my last visit two people were standing directly in front of it, talking, so it was completely hidden for anybody's view by their bodies and on a (recent) previous visit a Thai man who works for Visa World was standing in front of the sign, hiding it from view, as he looked for 'potential clients' coming into the waiting area. On neither occasion did anybody from the VFS centre ask them to move although it's only about ten-twelve feet from the guy handing out the tickets. This is the same sign that's been used since they opened the VFS centre and personally I agree with the independent inspector who said the signage is totally INADEQUATE, but you make up your own mind .

[theoldgit]

sumrit, on 2009-08-07 18:18:41, said:

As for any comments theoldgit and noel2449rk have made about the signage being adequate I'll describe the only one there as you approach the VFS centre and you can made your own mind up/comment about it yourself. The sign itself is about twelve inches wide and eighteen inches high and is fixed on to a portable stand making the top of the sign about five feet from the ground. It is positioned to the right of the lobby area near the door to the adjoining gift shop. On my last visit two people were standing directly in front of it, talking, so it was completely hidden for anybody's view by their bodies and on a (recent) previous visit a Thai man who works for Visa World was standing in front of the sign, hiding it from view, as he looked for 'potential clients' coming into the waiting area. On neither occasion did anybody from the VFS centre ask them to move although it's only about ten-twelve feet from the guy handing out the tickets. This is the same sign that's been used since they opened the VFS centre and personally I agree with the independent inspector who said the signage is totally INADEQUATE, but you make up your own mind .

As 7by7 says it's all a matter of perspective, I didn't say it was adequate, I was just saying what I had seen. I saw a large sign as you enter Regent House, not as you get to the VFS office, visible from the ground floor. It's at a high level and, in my opinion clearly visible, well it was to me anyway. Outside the VFS office there may well be smaller signs and they may have been obscured, I really don't know because by then I knew where I was going.

I agree that in an ideal world, and for what we are paying in fees it should be an ideal world, it's not beyond the skills of the VFS management to provide a meet and greet service similar to that provided by the vulchers working for the various agencies, clearly the comments from TVE and others prove that these rouges are running a pretty smooth sting type operation. I think the security guards outside would out on a limb if they tried to interfere with the touts, not saying that it's right, I'm just pretty sure it would happen.

I think that a high percentage of applicants and their partners would be pretty worldly wise with the amount of information and warnings of these scams, but people like the chap who just said "I leave it up to her" are, sadly, probably beyond help.

[7by7]

theoldgit, on 2009-08-07 19:38:33, said:

I agree that in an ideal world, and for what we are paying in fees it should be an ideal world, it's not beyond the skills of the VFS management to provide a meet and greet service similar to that provided by the vulchers working for the various agencies

Agreed. But one does need to bear in mind that only a very small percentage of the fee actually goes to VFS; most of it is taken by the government!

Labour's own figures show that the unit cost of processing a settlement visa is £379, way below the actual fee charged!

[theoldgit]

7by7, on 2009-08-07 19:59:15, said:

But one does need to bear in mind that only a very small percentage of the fee actually goes to VFS; most of it is taken by the government!

Again agreed, but when VFS bid for the contract they should have included their proposals as to how they were going to ensure the integrity of the application process and protect the applicants from these vulchers, and costed accordingly. That said I have been involved in enough of these bidding processes to know that it's not the quality of the bid but the price that wins contracts like this, the UKBA have paid cheap and got cheap.

I suspect your link to the money made from the process is probably spot on and the underlying reason, though I doubt that they are activity seeking for applications to fail.

[Electra]

theoldgit, on 2009-08-07 20:38:33, said:

I think that a high percentage of applicants and their partners would be pretty worldly wise with the amount of information and warnings of these scams, but people like the chap who just said "I leave it up to her" are, sadly, probably beyond help.

Any superficial analysis of the socio-economic background of the typical British male sponsor would quickly reveal that they are in the main from the lower end of society, quite unsophisticated and as such have probably a limited education and of less than average intelligence. Many are by no means worldly wise and in their social arena are unlikely to have seen, never mind understood, the so called information and warnings of scams to which you refer. Most I have encountered have had great difficulty in grasping the nuances of immigration law and view the whole process of applying for a visa with not inconsiderable trepidation. The Regent House scandal is a bear garden in which the visa agency prey on them with no mercy and as a consequence have made a financial killing from exploiting the ignorance and naivety of applicants and sponsors alike.
The VFS process has already been scrutinised and been found wanting but to date no action to deal with the touts has been taken.
From my own personal knowledge and experience it is fairly clear as to why the Be Bangkok has been so inert on this. Quite simply, they do not care one jot. Their prevailing view of the applicants has, and probably will always remain so, been that they are all just ' slappers ' and the sponsors mere lumpen gullible dross who have all been conned.
Lest the statisticians among us seek to hurl figures in repudiation perhaps I ought to state the obvious that not withstanding such prejudice the immigration rules inevitably transcend it but believe me, if there is a chance of getting a refusal they'll take it regardless of whether or not they thought an appeal adjudicator would eventually throw it out.

[TheFiend]

Electra, on 2009-08-07 14:35:34, said:

Any superficial analysis of the socio-economic background of the typical British male sponsor would quickly reveal that they are in the main from the lower end of society, quite unsophisticated and as such have probably a limited education and of less than average intelligence. Many are by no means worldly wise and in their social arena are unlikely to have seen, never mind understood, the so called information and warnings of scams to which you refer. Most I have encountered have had great difficulty in grasping the nuances of immigration law and view the whole process of applying for a visa with not inconsiderable trepidation.

That is a very superficial analysis.... I don't think I am lower class, uneducated, and of less than average intelligence, or is an IQ of 149 less than average?

It's just like saying every tourist to Thailand is a sex tourist.

A lot of the Brits I have met in Thailand, both tourists and ex-pats, have decent education and good jobs.

I think many think it is easier to use an agent to handle the application, but don't do research on which agents to use and instead rely on their wife or GF to sort it out.

We did the application ourselves. I researched beforehand what we needed for the application, and then we went to VFS together to apply..... result - a successful application.

[Electra]

I rather thought I had qualified the post by quantifying the demographic as being ' in the main ', i.e mostly. Perhaps a significant proportion might have been more apposite.
A bit touchy, aren't we?
Put it another way, whilst there are pilots out there with Thai partners I'm sure there are many more who are baggage loaders.
In any event the point I was seeking to make is still valid.

[sumrit]

TheFiend, on 2009-08-07 23:13:59, said:

Electra, on 2009-08-07 14:35:34, said:

Any superficial analysis of the socio-economic background of the typical British male sponsor would quickly reveal that they are in the main from the lower end of society, quite unsophisticated and as such have probably a limited education and of less than average intelligence. Many are by no means worldly wise and in their social arena are unlikely to have seen, never mind understood, the so called information and warnings of scams to which you refer. Most I have encountered have had great difficulty in grasping the nuances of immigration law and view the whole process of applying for a visa with not inconsiderable trepidation.

That is a very superficial analysis.... I don't think I am lower class, uneducated, and of less than average intelligence, or is an IQ of 149 less than average?

It's just like saying every tourist to Thailand is a sex tourist.

A lot of the Brits I have met in Thailand, both tourists and ex-pats, have decent education and good jobs.

I think many think it is easier to use an agent to handle the application, but don't do research on which agents to use and instead rely on their wife or GF to sort it out.

We did the application ourselves. I researched beforehand what we needed for the application, and then we went to VFS together to apply..... result - a successful application.

You beat me by 1 Fiend so you're safe, I must be the 'thicko' he's refering to

[yeesipha]

Electra, on 2009-08-07 21:35:34, said:

theoldgit, on 2009-08-07 20:38:33, said:

I think that a high percentage of applicants and their partners would be pretty worldly wise with the amount of information and warnings of these scams, but people like the chap who just said "I leave it up to her" are, sadly, probably beyond help.

Any superficial analysis of the socio-economic background of the typical British male sponsor would quickly reveal that they are in the main from the lower end of society, quite unsophisticated and as such have probably a limited education and of less than average intelligence. Many are by no means worldly wise and in their social arena are unlikely to have seen, never mind understood, the so called information and warnings of scams to which you refer. Most I have encountered have had great difficulty in grasping the nuances of immigration law and view the whole process of applying for a visa with not inconsiderable trepidation. The Regent House scandal is a bear garden in which the visa agency prey on them with no mercy and as a consequence have made a financial killing from exploiting the ignorance and naivety of applicants and sponsors alike.
The VFS process has already been scrutinised and been found wanting but to date no action to deal with the touts has been taken.
From my own personal knowledge and experience it is fairly clear as to why the Be Bangkok has been so inert on this. Quite simply, they do not care one jot. Their prevailing view of the applicants has, and probably will always remain so, been that they are all just ' slappers ' and the sponsors mere lumpen gullible dross who have all been conned.
Lest the statisticians among us seek to hurl figures in repudiation perhaps I ought to state the obvious that not withstanding such prejudice the immigration rules inevitably transcend it but believe me, if there is a chance of getting a refusal they'll take it regardless of whether or not they thought an appeal adjudicator would eventually throw it out.

Electra

looks like you have been eating that alpha-betti spagetti again,are you really this horrible when you speak to people face to face.

[7by7]

Electra, on 2009-08-07 21:35:34, said:

Any superficial analysis of the socio-economic background of the typical British male sponsor would quickly reveal that they are in the main from the lower end of society, quite unsophisticated and as such have probably a limited education and of less than average intelligence........

The majority of TV members are male, and most of those who post regularly in this forum have, are or will be the sponsor of a visa application.

Are you saying that the above applies to all of them, or just the British ones?

Quote

I rather thought I had qualified the post by quantifying the demographic as being ' in the main ', i.e mostly. Perhaps a significant proportion might have been more apposite.

Oh, that's ok then! It's only a significant proportion of us!

[Bird on the Wire]

7by7, on 2009-08-08 04:29:49, said:

Oh, that's ok then! It's only a significant proportion of us!

If the cap fits..............

[Electra]

yeesipha, on 2009-08-08 00:40:32, said:

,are you really this horrible when you speak to people face to face.

Much worse......

But I'm still one of the good guys.

[apeks1971]

theoldgit, on 2009-08-07 20:14:59, said:

7by7, on 2009-08-07 19:59:15, said:

But one does need to bear in mind that only a very small percentage of the fee actually goes to VFS; most of it is taken by the government!

Again agreed, but when VFS bid for the contract they should have included their proposals as to how they were going to ensure the integrity of the application process and protect the applicants from these vulchers, and costed accordingly. That said I have been involved in enough of these bidding processes to know that it's not the quality of the bid but the price that wins contracts like this, the UKBA have paid cheap and got cheap.

I suspect your link to the money made from the process is probably spot on and the underlying reason, though I doubt that they are activity seeking for applications to fail.

7by 7 do you actually know how much money the Goverment make with visa applications??its millions of pounds,i went to UK visas office in King Charles St just down from Haymarket in London and on the wall is a chart that tells you how much they make,and the VFS are a goverment agency linked to UK visas,The oldgit,as for failed applications my mates wife got refused for she didnt know anything about his children,reason why was he aint got any but she still got refused even after being married for over 2 years to him and he has a very successful business but they then changed it to they were not happy with the financial situation ???thing is they know he will pay again like most of us would to get our wifes let alone loved ones so thats another £500 in the pocket of the goverment,7 by 7 as you know i put an official complaint on the malpractices of the VFS and as a result they were investigated but nothing ever come of it,alot of wrongs go on at Regents house but as long as people pay there money nothing will ever change all youll get from VFS is be more careful

[theoldgit]

apeks1971, on 2009-08-10 02:47:31, said:

the VFS are a goverment agency linked to UK visas

I'm sorry, that's simply not correct. VFS are a private company who are contracted by UK Visas to receive visa applications, pass them on to UK Visas and then pass the results back to the applicants.

Quote

The oldgit,as for failed applications my mates wife got refused for she didnt know anything about his children,reason why was he aint got any but she still got refused even after being married for over 2 years to him and he has a very successful business but they then changed it to they were not happy with the financial situation ???thing is they know he will pay again like most of us would to get our wifes let alone loved ones so thats another £500 in the pocket of the goverment,7 by 7 as you know i put an official complaint on the malpractices of the VFS and as a result they were investigated but nothing ever come of it,alot of wrongs go on at Regents house but as long as people pay there money nothing will ever change all youll get from VFS is be more careful

I'm sorry to hear that, I am very suprised that your friends application was refused because his wife didn't know about his non existent children, ample grounds for an appeal I would have thought, or was it refused because the ECO wasn't convinced about the financial status? I would be really suprised if they simply changed the reason for the refusal.

The visa process is supposed to be cost neutral, and I think it's right and proper that it should be so, I don't see why UK taxpayers should subsidise the cost of processing visa applications, I am a UK taxpayer as I suspect are you. Obviously collecting the fees to pay the costs is not an exact science, some posts will collect more fees, whilst some will collect less, I know Bangkok collects in fees than the actual costs involved, but I am pretty sure they do not decline applications simply to increase the revenue stream, refusals actually give them a lot of extra work, writting up refusal notices and dealing with appeals and the like.

Edited by theoldgit, 2009-08-10 07:45:26.

[Mister Fixit]

7by7, on 2009-06-28 10:33:12, said:

The UKVAC website a photo of their staff in uniform.

What, all two of them? No wonder there's always a queue ...

Edited by Mister Fixit, 2009-08-10 09:23:01.

[7by7]

apeks1971, on 2009-08-10 03:47:31, said:

7by 7 do you actually know how much money the Goverment make with visa applications??its millions of pounds

I don't know fr sure, but I would not be at all surprised if you estimate was correct. For a cost verses price comparison, see here.

Quote

,and the VFS are a goverment agency linked to UK visas,

As OG says, they are not. They are a private company who handle the paperwork side of visa applications for many countries, not just the UK. VFS Global.

Quote

as you know i put an official complaint on the malpractices of the VFS

Malpractice? Poor advice is the worst they could be accused of in your case, which we have discussed at length. As I said to you before:
I still feel that your solicitor should bear the brunt of the blame; any solicitor should know that a couple who married abroad can divorce in the UK, subject to some simple residency requirements which you obviously met.

However, you obviously feel differently, so let's leave it there?

Posted by theoldgit

Quote

The visa process is supposed to be cost neutral, and I think it's right and proper that it should be so, I don't see why UK taxpayers should subsidise the cost of processing visa applications,

Totally agree; unfortunately Gordon Brown and co don't! They feel that the whole UKBA, including ECOs at embassies, IOs at ports, clerks at PEOs, enforcement officers checking up on illegals etc. should be paid for by the fees collected from applicants. (See document linked to above.) As they can't charge EEA applicants or asylum seekers, they overcharge us!

[lennoxgilby]

sumrit, on 2009-06-29 09:18:57, said:

CharlieB, on 2009-06-28 22:28:17, said:

katana, on 2009-06-28 14:20:50, said:

I guess it would be too much to have a sign on the genuine VFS office warning about the bogus outfit next door or to have a genuine VFS staff member waiting outside to usher people into the correct building?

I think the Thais have quite strict libel and slander laws, so putting a sign up saying next door is a bogus office is asking for a huge court case. The entrance is clear to anyone by the signage and the security at the entrance. If anyone is actually fooled into thinking the other places in the building are official then they probably need the services of them to gain a visa anyway.

Although the VFS center signs are clear when you get outside the office, I've watched people being approached outside the building. When people who are approached think they are being escorted to the VFS center by an employee they tend to 'switch off' and just follow, not looking at the signage on other offices. When we went to take my wifes application we were there for about eight hours over two days and I watched as several people were approached outside Regent House then lead up the stairs past the VFS center and into the Visa World office. I didn't see one person question where they were being taken or even look at the VFS office, and nobody who I saw go in came out of Visa World quickly either.

Hi, can you please tell me EXACTLY where to go once inside this building as I've been twice already, and I must have been extremely naive because both times I was taken to an office (with staff) who appeared entirely authentic. When you enter, do you go straight ahead (past the cafe on the right), up the stairs one floor and turn RIGHT? Please correct me if I'm wrong about this. Many thanks...

[theoldgit]

When you enter Regent House look at the first floor balcony ahead of you, that's where you need to be.

Go up the stairs and turn right, if one on the cowboys hasn't tried to nab you at the entrance there will be some more lurking here. The VFS office is on the right and there will be a security guard outside, checking you in, the VFS office is clearly marked.

The cowboys are in an office just to the left of VFS, they are very convincing. Remember VFS staff are in uniform, so no uniform it's not VFS and walk out.