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[mitrapaap]

ophelia, on 2009-06-30 23:29:28, said:

"To me it is 10 times worse when a woman victimises another woman in this way instead of a man doing it. "
TheLaughingMan...

what? 10 time worse for a woman to commit this crime than it is for a man?

You have to be kidding.

How about the fact that these types of crimes are committed by men well over 10 times more often than the same crime committed by women.

Why is it that men find women committing crimes so much more offensive than if one of their 'brothers' do?
A man beats his wife to death, and that's "domestic violence", a woman retaliates against her abuser, and she's a murderer....

please.

I think what he wanted to say is that a women should better be able to understand what she is doing to these women than a man. Therefore it is indeed amazing that even women get into this kind of activity.

For me, I'm always glad to see that finally women are not any better than man.

[crocodilexp]

Based on the snippet, it's hard to determine exactly what happened. The girls voluntarily went there knowing they'd be bargirls, i.e. prostitutes of some sort. What happened later can range anywhere from a personal quarrel, via girls not liking the country, the business model or the clients they encountered, all the way to being held in chains against their will.

The expenses were hardly extortionate, 30.000 baht for visa + ticket is a decent deal. Not much profit for the agent, unless they also got a kickback on delivery. Four customers a day is not easy work, but hardly atypical for a prostitute in the west (or in some sois of Pattaya for that matter). Age of the girls is not mentioned -- they are not necessarily young, and certainly not underage (I doubt the article would omit that).

Given that the court did give the perpetrators 7+ years, I'd say it's something more sinister (if Thai court is to be trusted), but it's impossible to tell.

Edited by crocodilexp, 2009-07-01 03:09:30.

[hardy1943]

wrecker, on 2009-06-30 23:03:15, said:

in general I am not really impressed with any embassy operating abroad, not with Western Embassies and not with Thai embassies. Their normal point of view is one of "som nam naa" and your own problem. Chapeau therefore that this embassy has reacted in a decent and great manner. Human trafficking should be stopped at all cost.

I am amazed also, they usually do not want to be bothered. Hats off to them

[jackdanielsesq]

Another great way to spread HIV/AIDS throughout the world.
80% of SA is HIV positive.
BR>Jack

[HagenvonTronje]

jackdanielsesq, on 2009-07-01 04:26:19, said:

Another great way to spread HIV/AIDS throughout the world.
80% of SA is HIV positive.
BR>Jack

[cmiuc]

Patpong, SA, Pattaya, and all the other provinces who do the same business.... what's the difference?

I believe it was the losing of the 'thai face' was what got them the '7'.

or maybe someone didn't get their cut as they do in LOS...

So this is bogus, until they bring it home and clean it up... then what's the point. But H_e_l_L having a sex free thailand? hah... dream on!

[jimmy0518]

i always think the thai people are all very kind.but never thought such kind of thing was happened
in this beautiful country. i request to put these women to death immediately

[losworld]

whitfield, on 2009-06-30 23:11:34, said:

cocopops, on 2009-06-30 22:58:43, said:

Quote

the three women detained Ying and Noi and forced them to provide sexual services on an average of four customers per day

Seems they got off somewhat lightly if the above is what happened.

You're right about that. My ex got 8 years for stealing my ATM card.

Dude you let your wife go to prison for 8 years for stealing your atm card? Isn't that more than a bit cruel and unusual?

[BigSnake]

Sad, with all the News far and near about this kind of scam some ladies still fall for it hook line and sinker, no wonder it is very difficult for a Thai woman to get a visa to certain Country, my understanding South Africa is not one them, I have Thai lady friend of the family who travel to South Africa quite often along. She is well to do by any standard.

[jboras]

george, on 2009-06-30 22:52:05, said:

3 Thai women convicted for procuring women for prostitution in South Africa

BANGKOK: -- The Ratchadapisek Criminal Court Tuesday sentenced three Thai women - each guilty of procuring two Thai women for prostitution in South Africa - to a seven-and-a-half-year jail term and ordered them to pay Bt300,000 in compensation to the victims.

The lawsuit said the defendants, Jiraporn Butanai, 32, Bangon Sibbold, 35, and Wanpen Phromthat, 32, convinced Ying and Noi (not their real names) that working in a beer bar in South Africa would yield lucrative incomes and asked the pair to pay them Bt30,000 for expenses to arrange a trip to South Africa.

On arrival in the African country, the three women detained Ying and Noi and forced them to provide sexual services on an average of four customers per day. The two women eventually escaped and went for help at the Thai Embassy. This led to the arrest of Jiraporn in Chon Buri and the arrest of the other two defendants in Rayong, the lawsuit stated.


-- The Nation 2009-06-30

I really think this is economics. The 2 girls knew what they were getting into. THE MONEY THEY WERE GETTING WAS NOT ENOUGH!

In Australia you can go to any "Massage Parlour" and see the Thai girls there that will go through a customer an hour and maybe more! BUT at AUD$150 a pop.... they are VERY HAPPY and wish they could go through more customers! Work it out 12 hours x 150 is a lot of money for anyone...

The arrangement is 50/50 withthe boss... not many of these girls running to the embassy! Should see how many offer "favours' to Immigration Compliance" to let them stay in oz! Too bad their offers aren't taken up... deported and they return again under a different name... Human trafficking my arse... they know what they are doing ... as to naivity as another reaer pointed out... don't believe that...

I have seen ladies change their names in minutes at the local ampher and skit off overseas to Australia, Singapore, Malaysia every time they get caught.

There is human trafficikng but from unwilling participants... but not in this instance!

Love you long time, what my name?

Edited by jboras, 2009-07-01 06:17:24.

[StrokerShovel]

smylz, on 2009-06-30 23:07:59, said:

there is a nasty lady around sukumvit area doing the same thing for young girls and katoeys.
my friend was approached and she works in an internet cafe - seems anyone is worth at least tempting with the carrot.
i dont know this woman myself, but my friend tells me she is well known for her "promises" of a better life in UK.

But not new news for any country of the world, people smuggling and kidnappings for sex trade is just awful.
could anyone even guesstimate this industries revenue? it must challenge the drug/weapons/terrorism trade for top rank.

There are many reports done on Human Trafficking. Here is one link which suggests an annual revenue of 32 billion dollars, 1 million children trafficked for sex every year. 80% of transnational victims are women and children. This site has many more statistics, but the whole point is that the punishment needs to fit the crime and 7 1/2 years just doesn't cut it!

www.cicatelli.org/titleX/downloadable/Human%20Trafficking%20Statistics.pdf

[wackysleet]

ophelia, on 2009-06-30 23:29:28, said:

"To me it is 10 times worse when a woman victimises another woman in this way instead of a man doing it. "
TheLaughingMan...

what? 10 time worse for a woman to commit this crime than it is for a man?

You have to be kidding.

How about the fact that these types of crimes are committed by men well over 10 times more often than the same crime committed by women.

Why is it that men find women committing crimes so much more offensive than if one of their 'brothers' do?
A man beats his wife to death, and that's "domestic violence", a woman retaliates against her abuser, and she's a murderer....

please.

A man beats his wife to death in an argument then it's murder, if a woman stabs or kills her husband whilst being attacked then it's self defence, if a woman kills her husband while he is asleep because he beats her then that is pre meditated murder.

[HakimKlunker]

harsh4, on 2009-06-30 22:57:00, said:

sunny747, on 2009-06-30 22:36:19, said:

great news of these kind!
one of my loyal staff, recently resigned from our company and went to NORWAY to help in her uncle Thai restaurant. she barely know that uncle as he is been living there for 20 years.
She was one of our best staff and i really wanted her to stay. i don't know what future she would make there.

...
I guess you could've given her a raise...:-) Such tales are not uncommon but then there are many thai restaurants in the US/Europe owned by thais who are looking for help from back home to work at cooks/waiters/waitresses. Those jobs are long hours and the pay maybe less than reasonable compared to payscales in those countries but there's no prostitution involved. It's just an opportunity to change their lives (not necesarily for the better) and girls/guys from here choose it as an exit from their lives in Thailand. As long as these restaurant owners provide legal immigration status to these applicants there's little wrong with the whole arrangement really. Hopefully your ex staff is indeed headed for a real restaurant with decent pay and living conditions. It would've been an idea to get her contact details in Norway just to keep in touch so you could always offer her her old job back in case she wasn't happy in Norway ?...

Do you want to run a company or doing social service? Staff comes / staff leaves. That's all

[cyborg22]

HakimKlunker, on 2009-07-01 09:48:01, said:

Do you want to run a company or doing social service? Staff comes / staff leaves. That's all

That is not all if you care about the people you employ. Some do care, but maybe thats just a little bit to human for you.

[iko]

I guess the job was too hard and the income not so interesting. Anyway, we do know nothing about the real situation-story, so we cannot judge anybody (nor the mamaPimpsan). BTW 7 years in a thai jail is like 300 years in purgatory (by dante's standard); I'm not happy if somebody gets slaved but I'm not happy if somebody is put in jail too (especially a thai jail).Save a bit of humanity for the pimps too
Fact is most part of thai women prefer shortcuts to money; and sometines it goes apart. You play, you pay. Everywhere, not just in thailand.

[loburt]

SPIKECM, on 2009-06-30 23:30:08, said:

wrecker, on 2009-06-30 23:03:15, said:

in general I am not really impressed with any embassy operating abroad, not with Western Embassies and not with Thai embassies. Their normal point of view is one of "som nam naa" and your own problem. Chapeau therefore that this embassy has reacted in a decent and great manner. Human trafficking should be stopped at all cost.

where does human trafficking begin and end? Should young girls in Shan State in Burma not be allowed a helping hand (paid for, of course) to make it across the border into Thailand? I know many stories of girls ending up in Thailand to a far better life than they would have otherwise have known in Burma. Most of the millions of Burmese living in Thailand would never be here without "human trafficking". So why stop it at all costs? In what capacity are you to stop any other human being's choice to do what they see as an improvement to their lot? Before you want to stop something at all cost you first have to define what "human trafficking" is.
I would argue that many human traffickers do a better job at solving world poverty than any fat UN bureaucrat. Just what have they ever done for the Burmese people?
Furthermore, I don't believe that there are many Thai girls so gullible as to believe that in such circumstances, they were heading to supply anything other than sexual services. Thais are a lot less stupid than many farangs give them credit for.

In more than five years of reading forum posts on ThaiVisa, this is the most ignorant post I've ever read.

[sedeflonga]

jimmy0518, on 2009-06-30 23:45:48, said:

i always think the thai people are all very kind.but never thought such kind of thing was happened
in this beautiful country. i request to put these women to death immediately

huh? this is not china or Russia. Crimes are committed in every country. Even in paradise was a crime committed.
Thailand is nothing special. It has good and bad peoples.

[fruittbatt]

SPIKECM, on 2009-06-30 23:30:08, said:

where does human trafficking begin and end? Should young girls in Shan State in Burma not be allowed a helping hand (paid for, of course) to make it across the border into Thailand? I know many stories of girls ending up in Thailand to a far better life than they would have otherwise have known in Burma. Most of the millions of Burmese living in Thailand would never be here without "human trafficking". So why stop it at all costs? In what capacity are you to stop any other human being's choice to do what they see as an improvement to their lot? Before you want to stop something at all cost you first have to define what "human trafficking" is.
I would argue that many human traffickers do a better job at solving world poverty than any fat UN bureaucrat. Just what have they ever done for the Burmese people?
Furthermore, I don't believe that there are many Thai girls so gullible as to believe that in such circumstances, they were heading to supply anything other than sexual services. Thais are a lot less stupid than many farangs give them credit for.

Finally, a thoughtful response to the knee-jerk reactions to this post!

Yes, the news item does beg the questions "what exactly is human trafficking?" and "why is private sponsorship for purposes of sex-work a crime yet corporate sponsorship is legal for recruiting women to become domestic drudges, liable to abuse by a jealous wife or vindictive grandmother, as has happened numerous times to Indonesian workers in Singapore?"

I am not suggesting that one form of abuse legitimates another, but that sex-work abroad is a valid employment option which happens to be better paid than construction work or selling garlands at intersections. Obviously most women who agree to the extortionate fees of the sponsor are well aware that they will be doing sex work. They may not, however, be aware of the conditions of their employment in the foreign country. Where there is detention for sexual purposes, or hidden costs which keep a woman in a state of virtual bonded labour, yes, the sponsor deserves to be brought to trial for misrepresentation and extortion....but NOT on the grounds of sexual morality as many posters here would seem to applaud.

[ConfusedFarang]

"forced them to provide sexual services on an average of four customers per day"

In South Africa, with those types of "clients" and that many each day, the girls were definately at a high risk for catching HIV. I doubt every single client used condoms and the girls probably didnt have a choice in the matter.

[sunholidaysun1]

There was a programme on tv a while ago called "Traffic". It showed normal working class girls from the old Eastern Bloc countries trying to improve their lives.
Adverts in local papers offering work abroad with far better wages than they could get at home. They apply for the job , the families are sad that they are going , but its not forever and basically the families know that money is needed. Then the girls pay up front after borrowing from family and friends to go and meet and meet the contact. The money is paid over for the transportation , then they are taken to where ever the work is. On many occasions transported in vans where no one can see them, drugged and beaten even before they get to the destination and raped by the couriers. On being moved , in some cases from country to country by road through Europe , the girls are SOLD to others on route until the cargo has been completely sold.
Then , the girls are locked up , again beaten into submission and drugged to keep them subdued. They have to have many customers per day , making tons of cash for the filth that are holding them hostage. This is the reality of trafficing on one level. Kidnapping of children for the same pupose is hard to take in but its happening as well either for the sex trade or labour camps.
Thai girls are offered jobs as well through women like the headline post is talking about . The difference here is the girls do believe their Thai contacts who set up the deals for those jobs in other countries and it is possible that the Ladies getting the girls from the villages are unaware of the treatment of the girls once they are in the other countries etc. I am not sticking up for the mamasans. I also think that many would know that they are going to a massage place in Oz or UAE or somewhere else as reported a while ago. What they dont expect is to be paid nothing , many customers a day to service and to be locked up like pigs .
But as I said in the posts previously , they have to pay back the money that they borrowed to be transported first , many borrow from those who are trafficing them. Working off the debt could take months if the cost of shipping them was say $1000 , the girls wages could be only $5 per customer , even thought the pimps are getting $50 .Having at least 200 customers to pay back the debt of transportation before even the slightest mention of a wage for them selves. There was talk of the girls in the UAE were having 8-10 customers per day forced on them. Its not the rosey fun time bar work of Thailand or the laid back relaxed atmosphere of a massage place in Thailand but I am sure the girls who get roped into this business never expect the treatment they get when forced into these jobs and held against their will.

[LPCustom69]

Get real.

jeroentak, on 2009-06-30 16:45:35, said:

The 2 girls were asked to work in a bar beer in South Africa and make good money.
So they were not asked to work in a restaurant. We all know that girls who work in
a bar beer are also entertaining customers in different ways outside the bar.
Maybe the two girls were very naieve or maybe they knew but they dnt like
the job after all. I am not so sure if these girls are 100% innocent.

Many thai girls are providing all kind of services abroad in every country.
Most of them because they like the money. Their foreign husband are objecting, because
they dnt like them to do these kind of jobs. If the husband makes a fight than the thai girl
will leave and look for foreigner she can stay with and will not give her a hard time
to make money in this kind of manner.

[MRFortuner]

Legalize Prostitution in some areas. Put a protocol in it. Ensure safety and cleanliness.

However, it will take a long time before any country can escape the "cultural" thingy and the mind set of "sex" is taboo.

Practise sex education for children. Educate the younger generation and let them decide what to do. Problem with Asia countries is that "sex education" remains a taboo instead of a knowledge.

Awareness campaign to human-trafficking, education about slavery, be cautious who you mixed with. From statistic, it is the upcountry woman that got conned. These woman have less exposure.


Don't try to stop it. Minimize the effect. the world must be balance.

[Padrino]

sunholidaysun1, on 2009-07-01 01:47:13, said:

TheLaughingMan, on 2009-06-30 18:24:36, said:

It frightens me that some people are posting the attitude that if they were hookers before than "whats the problem?" ENSLAVEMENT is nothing even close to the lifestyle a Pattaya bar girl lives, she has complete freedom to do as she pleases, she can not work if she chooses, she can change jobs if she chooses, she can take whatever client she wants or not take one if she doesnt want. A SLAVE can only be raped several times a day with no choices or freedom. Makes me sick at the lack of compassion simply because they think the girls might have been prostitutes.

Being transported - trafficed , is not only for those who dont know what they are getting into . Those who are enslaved and put into prostitution through trafficing is severe, and every effort should be put in place to stop it and those responsible, dealt with as being reported today . The women trade workers here have not only the pressure of family and peers keeping them in the job but also drug abuse and fear of not getting their quota of customers for the place that employs them, but more common within the younger girls are the Thai boyfriends who live off their girlfriends earnings and beat the crap out of them if they dont come up with the money when they want some. . Those who work here in Thailand do have more of a say in what they are doing , personal choice . Those trafficed and forced into slave labour and prostitution have no say at all. Help is what is needed from every government in the world to really crack down and stop the tradeing of people. But as I said earlier , nothing will change here.

This is truly a sad story and we have similar problems in the UK with Eastern European women being tricked and trafficked for prostitution into the country. What confuses me is this; previously I have spoken with farrangs who reject the notion that some (not all) Thai women are trafficked from provinces into the cities for prostitution, most farrang suggest working girls are always there by choice. Yet there are numerous cases reported by charities of mafia paying families for girls and entrapment whereby the girl must work to pay off a bond or accommodation provided by the bar. The idea is that once in the bar the girl will be conditioned into a prostitute and not want to disappoint her parents by not sending money home from her supposedly great new job in the city. Obviously this is not the case for all girls, but I did meet a girl in samui who was conned into coming to take a job in bar, she returned home after 2 weeks by borrowing the money from another girl, so fact, it does happen. Is it to ease conscience that farrang ignore this fact. I imagine most trafficking and conning happens to the much younger girls and boys for that matter.

[Brewsta]

harsh4, on 2009-07-01 00:57:00, said:

sunny747, on 2009-06-30 22:36:19, said:

great news of these kind!
one of my loyal staff, recently resigned from our company and went to NORWAY to help in her uncle Thai restaurant. she barely know that uncle as he is been living there for 20 years.
She was one of our best staff and i really wanted her to stay. i don't know what future she would make there.

I guess you could've given her a raise...:-) Such tales are not uncommon but then there are many thai restaurants in the US/Europe owned by thais who are looking for help from back home to work at cooks/waiters/waitresses. Those jobs are long hours and the pay maybe less than reasonable compared to payscales in those countries but there's no prostitution involved. It's just an opportunity to change their lives (not necesarily for the better) and girls/guys from here choose it as an exit from their lives in Thailand. As long as these restaurant owners provide legal immigration status to these applicants there's little wrong with the whole arrangement really. Hopefully your ex staff is indeed headed for a real restaurant with decent pay and living conditions. It would've been an idea to get her contact details in Norway just to keep in touch so you could always offer her her old job back in case she wasn't happy in Norway ?

Hmmm...yes it does work both ways, like some (most? All?) 'Export Help'....

My Thai masseuse who sorts my crocked back out on my returns to North Yorkshire makes £30 p/hour in her own biz (and her own house) as UK resident since 1992. She has lovely family and common sense....
unfortunately lacking so much in some peeps out here in LOS & SE Asia..... IMHO.

Anyway, best luck to the rest.

Rgdz,

Brewsta

Edited by Brewsta, 2009-07-01 12:08:51.

[sunholidaysun1]

Padrino, on 2009-07-01 04:38:37, said:

sunholidaysun1, on 2009-07-01 01:47:13, said:

TheLaughingMan, on 2009-06-30 18:24:36, said:

It frightens me that some people are posting the attitude that if they were hookers before than "whats the problem?" ENSLAVEMENT is nothing even close to the lifestyle a Pattaya bar girl lives, she has complete freedom to do as she pleases, she can not work if she chooses, she can change jobs if she chooses, she can take whatever client she wants or not take one if she doesnt want. A SLAVE can only be raped several times a day with no choices or freedom. Makes me sick at the lack of compassion simply because they think the girls might have been prostitutes.

Being transported - trafficed , is not only for those who dont know what they are getting into . Those who are enslaved and put into prostitution through trafficing is severe, and every effort should be put in place to stop it and those responsible, dealt with as being reported today . The women trade workers here have not only the pressure of family and peers keeping them in the job but also drug abuse and fear of not getting their quota of customers for the place that employs them, but more common within the younger girls are the Thai boyfriends who live off their girlfriends earnings and beat the crap out of them if they dont come up with the money when they want some. . Those who work here in Thailand do have more of a say in what they are doing , personal choice . Those trafficed and forced into slave labour and prostitution have no say at all. Help is what is needed from every government in the world to really crack down and stop the tradeing of people. But as I said earlier , nothing will change here.

This is truly a sad story and we have similar problems in the UK with Eastern European women being tricked and trafficked for prostitution into the country. What confuses me is this; previously I have spoken with farrangs who reject the notion that some (not all) Thai women are trafficked from provinces into the cities for prostitution, most farrang suggest working girls are always there by choice. Yet there are numerous cases reported by charities of mafia paying families for girls and entrapment whereby the girl must work to pay off a bond or accommodation provided by the bar. The idea is that once in the bar the girl will be conditioned into a prostitute and not want to disappoint her parents by not sending money home from her supposedly great new job in the city. Obviously this is not the case for all girls, but I did meet a girl in samui who was conned into coming to take a job in bar, she returned home after 2 weeks by borrowing the money from another girl, so fact, it does happen. Is it to ease conscience that farrang ignore this fact. I imagine most trafficking and conning happens to the much younger girls and boys for that matter.

I agree with you 100% , I have known some girls just as you have mentioned.