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[Plus]

Quote

As long as no court has convicted Jakrapop, this speech is simply not illegal.

They can present this as a defence argument. They have the right to defend themselves, just as people have the right to accuse them.

If it turns out to be illegal they will have to answer for their decision to distribute the speech, regardless of Jakrapob's own case.

[justanothercybertosser]

Samuian, on 2009-07-03 11:46:35, said:

Does anyone of these "freedom of speech, freedom of.... xxxxx" advocates care about the feelings
of people who DO LOVE their monarch, their country and may hold a differing opinion then dictated
by the so called "free press" of the west?

There is a bad stench somewhere.....


Sorry if these frank words may offend anyone...!

Yes, and the FCCT has published a great coffee table book about the King with press articles, that appeared in the media throughout his reign and many photos, often very intimate scenes in the palace as well.

Any accusations of lese majeste against the FCCT are preposterous, and purely politically motivated by selfserving political pressure groups, their apologists and hangers-on, who have no the slightest clue about the FCCT and its very important role in society here.

Offensive is an understatement when describing this latest lese majeste accusation. A nasty stink of nationalist extremism is creating a climate of fear in Thailand.

[Ijustwannateach]

Plus,  I'm afraid I can't engage with someone on a rational level who wants to refer to Obama as a terrorist.  Sorry.  Hope you find others to take the bait.

Samuian, I don't know if you are referring to me (because I am one of those discussing a certain kind of freedom of speech in another country) but if your feelings are hurt as a result, it is entirely your own responsibility that you are, for some strange reason, taking it personally.

These kinds of posts remind me why I usually don't bother with politics-related threads in this forum.

[orangezeke]

Plus, on 2009-07-02 18:05:56, said:

What have you seen? Arrests of CNN staff?

no i haven't...and that is the point.  it wouldn't happen because it is a ridiculous charge.  as it is in this case...as is your comparison of jakrapob to osama bin laden...as is your defence of this ladies actions.

to take it a step further, couldn't she be charged with LM for highlighting the fact that the FCCT had highlighted the fact that jakrapobhad highlighted some points that had him charged with LM ?

it is beyond the bizzare.  and you have set yourself up as head cheerleader.

[TAWP]

Ijustwannateach, on 2009-07-03 12:06:54, said:

Plus,  I'm afraid I can't engage with someone on a rational level who wants to refer to Obama as a terrorist.  Sorry.  Hope you find others to take the bait.

I think he is referring to Osama [bin Laden].

That doesn't change the fact that he is embarrassingly wrong as it is legal to copy* and distribute any speeches by Osama in the US.


(Unless copyright claims come in the way. )

Edited by TAWP, 2009-07-03 12:22:42.

[DaleBlue]

Osama and Obama sound so similar. I am confuse sometimes.

[DaleBlue]

Serve you right JonTan on your comments a few minutes ago.
Now you are BANNED.

[Plus]

Quote

Plus, I'm afraid I can't engage with someone on a rational level who wants to refer to Obama as a terrorist.

Obama, Osama, they are all the same to you, aren't they?



>>>>

I agree, I don't think we can have a rational discussion if you can't even be bothered to read my posts and accuse me of some bizarre baiting practices.

Quote

it is legal to copy* and distribute any speeches by Osama in the US.

Did you read my post about muslim cleric who was convicted for possession of Osama's handbook, among other things? Even though it was in the Uk, he was wanted in the US for "supporting terrorism", too.

[TAWP]

Plus, on 2009-07-03 12:56:02, said:

Quote

it is legal to copy* and distribute any speeches by Osama in the US.

Did you read my post about muslim cleric who was convicted for possession of Osama's handbook, among other things? Even though it was in the Uk, he was wanted in the US for "supporting terrorism", too.

The charges was for terrorism, not distributing speeches. Not even close.

And what is your point, trying to equalize insults and terrorism?

[Plus]

Jakrapob wants armed struggle against Thailand, he's past simple insults already.

Oh, and there's a very little practical difference if he was charged for making speeches, or it was worded as "encouraging/supporting terrorism" for legal purposes of going around First Amendment.

Edited by Plus, 2009-07-03 13:20:00.

[Scott]

Being charged with a crime and being convicted of a crime are two entirely different things.  In the case of the Muslim cleric, there is also the issue of extradition and countries tend to look carefully at what someone is charged with and the basis of the charge before they will extradite them.  Hanging around with terrorists, running around with their written materials and advocating for them will definitely put you on someone's radar screen.  Whether or not you get charged with it is one thing, but I have a feeling you had better be behaving in a most exemplary fashion because you will be watched.


I am not sure how this all relates to the FCCT and LM discussion.  I am not sure that one can compare LM laws to laws on National Security.  I believe Thailand has a number of laws related to National Security as well.  

For myself, I prefer to stay rather distant from the overall subject.  I know that if I lived in Saudi Arabia I wouldn't be attending Friday Prayers, but I know I wouldn't be criticizing those that did.

[Samuian]

justanothercybertosser, on 2009-07-03 12:00:42, said:

Offensive is an understatement when describing this latest lese majeste accusation. A nasty stink of nationalist extremism is creating a climate of fear in Thailand.

Sorry, Sir I am deeply moved by you intense display of respect towards the countries very high regarded Institution!

As I wrote, the law, is the law, is the law - if I don't steal, don't break EXISTING laws - I don't have to fear prosecution!

Very simple, very, very simple!

Play with the rules and no one will harm you!

Why try the authorities, why....?

that is why I can't understand the uproar!

It's not "Them nationalists" it's not the one who got burgled remember it's the burglar,
the one who may have broken the law!

and stepped over the line....things get a bit twisted in times.... specially if the red shirt anti-XXXXXX  pro XXXXXXX revisionists step on to the stage - then NOTHING is right except their very own agenda and they are eying the LM Law too, for THEIR agenda !


Or forgotten, the story with Abhisit and his Audience with the King, him not kneeling on the floor, but sitting on a chair.....offered by the King himself?

Instrumentalisation.... on both sides that is why Abhisoit warned ALL not to missuse or abuse this particular law!

Over many years I have been living in the kingdom - never ever heard about this law since the events unfolding after Sept. 2066 and that is exactly why or better still, of whom, or whose ambitions?

Sir?

Edited by Samuian, 2009-07-03 13:26:27.

[Thai at Heart]

I have found these pieces which show that on previous occasions the FCCT has stopped distributing DVD's of speeches once the become part of an investigation.  One would hopefully presume that they did the same concerning Jakrapob's speech, which if true would make the charges even more tenuous, although that is a presumption on my part.  

Quote

Head told CPJ that investigating police officials had requested a DVD recording of a Foreign Correspondents Club of Thailand (FCCT) event on December 9 titled “The State of Politics and the Way Forward for Thailand” at which members of a pro-government group made reference to Head’s reporting. The FCCT announced today that it was suspending sales of that particular event’s recording. In an e-mail statement, the FCCT’s executive board said that “DVD recordings of Club events had been misused by certain individuals with their own agendas, in a way that compromises the free speech values the media community and the FCCT stand for.”

http://facthai.wordp...ajeste/page/47/

Quote

Suspension of DVD sales of Dec 9 event

The FCCT regrets to announce that since the Dec 9, 2008 event ''The State of Politics and the Way Forward for Thailand '' is apparently the subject of a police inquiry, the Executive Committee deems it appropriate to suspend the further distribution of the DVD recording of the event with immediate effect.

We would like to take this opportunity to inform members that DVD recordings of Club events have been misused by certain individuals with their own agendas, in a way that compromises the free speech values the media community and the FCCT stand for. Members are advised to be cautious in and if possible refrain from, sharing or lending DVDs of Club events.

http://nationsstate....01_archive.html

[TAWP]

Plus, on 2009-07-03 13:17:44, said:

Jakrapob wants armed struggle against Thailand, he's past simple insults already.

Oh, and there's a very little practical difference if he was charged for making speeches, or it was worded as "encouraging/supporting terrorism" for legal purposes of going around First Amendment.

Now you are only being dishonest. And UK hdoesn't have a 'first amendment' protecting free speech and has never really been a free nation. Hence why it wasn't used as an example.

And Jakrapob didn't call to arms in his speech at FCCT. Any stupid remarks said later has to be validated on their own terms and charged separately and should have no bearing on FCCT. Hence his speech isn't terrorism and any debate about anyone supporting terrorism ni words and actions is outside of the scope and hardly evidence that 'others are doing it'.

Yes, some other nations as stifling free speech. What a nice bunch of nations to be associated with...


And in my view, having a LM law should be considered a LM in itself.

[Plus]

I don't think the senator would have charged FCCT for selling dvds prior to charges against Jakrapob, that was over a year ago, after all. If they are not on sale now, how would she even substantiate her charge?

Any Thai media outlet, like the Nation, doesn't publish content of LM speeches and remarks, precisely because they'd be subjecting themselves to charges. Sondhi was charged for relating such remards off the PAD stage.

What did FCCT think? Did they expect a different standard applied to themselves.

Also, they are charged for selling DVD copies of a speech containing LM offenses. It has nothing to do with whatever else they sell there, their published books, how much they gave to charity etc etc.

Thai papers print huge tributes to the royal family on various occasions, they don't think it earns them the right to print offensive comments, too.

[Plus]

Quote

Now you are only being dishonest. And UK hdoesn't have a 'first amendment' protecting free speech and has never really been a free nation. Hence why it wasn't used as an example.

You telling why I didn't use the UK as an example? I singled out the US and Osama as the easiest to relate to, elsewhere I just talked about "west" in general.

[Sao Jiang Mai]

Correct me if I am wrong but one woman made one complaint which by law has got to be looked into by the authorities. Why are people making such a huge deal?  We don't even know, and won't for a long time, what the verdict is.  Anyone is allowed to make such an accusation, but often the allegations don't stick. So those who think this is a huge conspiracy and are so disgusted by this and that seem to be going to a bit of extreme. If you are disgusted with this woman, then fine, but why bring others - PAD, government, Thai people, etc. - into it at this point?  Until we have proof that the allegation was politically motivated or that she is affiliated to some party or person, at this point it is one woman't complaint isn't it?

[Thai at Heart]

Plus, on 2009-07-03 06:37:57, said:

I don't think the senator would have charged FCCT for selling dvds prior to charges against Jakrapob, that was over a year ago, after all. If they are not on sale now, how would she even substantiate her charge?

Any Thai media outlet, like the Nation, doesn't publish content of LM speeches and remarks, precisely because they'd be subjecting themselves to charges. Sondhi was charged for relating such remards off the PAD stage.

What did FCCT think? Did they expect a different standard applied to themselves.

Also, they are charged for selling DVD copies of a speech containing LM offenses. It has nothing to do with whatever else they sell there, their published books, how much they gave to charity etc etc.

Thai papers print huge tributes to the royal family on various occasions, they don't think it earns them the right to print offensive comments, too.

Well we don't know if the DVD's are still on sale or were on sale after the initial charge against Jakrapob, so it is moot.  

My examples simply illustrate their actions concerning similar accusations.  

What we do know is that the statements at the FCCT by Jakrapob were made in August 07 and the complaint made in June 08, and there is still no decision/judgement as to whether they actually constitute lese majeste.

Quote

Laksana was quoted on ASTV Manager website as claiming the board's decision to sell DVD copies of Jakrapob Penkair's controversial speech at the club back in 2007 constituted an act of lese majeste.

http://www.nationmul...cs_30106547.php

This can be interpreted in different ways.  Either the decision to distribute was made in 2007, or the speech was made in 2007.

Quote

A source within the FCCT, speaking on condition of anonymity, said he was "surprised" at the latest allegation, which came after two years of the speech being made, adding that "it places Thailand in a very poor light".

DVDs were set up largely for club members who missed interesting talks and sales are restricted solely for FCCT members. Few copies of the Jakrapob talk are understood to have been sold because a manuscript of his talk circulated in Bangkok shortly after he was charged, and the video can be downloaded free from some websites.

This may suggest they were still selling the DVD's.  Does anyone know?

Out of curiosity were Sondhi's statements broadcast on ASTV?  In which case could ASTV end up facing a similar complaint?

Edited by Thai at Heart, 2009-07-03 14:09:23.

[Samuian]

Sao Jiang Mai, on 2009-07-03 13:59:17, said:

Correct me if I am wrong but one woman made one complaint which by law has got to be looked into by the authorities. Why are people making such a huge deal?  We don't even know, and won't for a long time, what the verdict is.  Anyone is allowed to make such an accusation, but often the allegations don't stick. So those who think this is a huge conspiracy and are so disgusted by this and that seem to be going to a bit of extreme. If you are disgusted with this woman, then fine, but why bring others - PAD, government, Thai people, etc. - into it at this point?  Until we have proof that the allegation was politically motivated or that she is affiliated to some party or person, at this point it is one woman't complaint isn't it?

Point taken!


But still think strongly that "mudslinging"and trying to discredit  the countries highly revered institution has NOTHING to do with "media freedom" or "free speech" - it simply is either politically motivated, or the group/person lacks character!

In Germany there is something like a "self censorship", which calls for "ethical" Journalism - if this isn't an oxymoron in itself already...

[MaiChai]

Quote

4 pending charges of lèse-majesté against Jonathan Head, is he setting a record?

Thats probably why he is being reposted somewhere else? Bring a new face and start afresh?

[TAWP]

Plus, on 2009-07-03 13:45:37, said:

Quote

Now you are only being dishonest. And UK hdoesn't have a 'first amendment' protecting free speech and has never really been a free nation. Hence why it wasn't used as an example.

You telling why I didn't use the UK as an example? I singled out the US and Osama as the easiest to relate to, elsewhere I just talked about "west" in general.

Right...apart from you being wrong on every count on Osama and US with Free Speech.

Please provide source to any claim as to why Osama in any way is related to this case. Or that the US has even punished people for distributing his speeches.

[apetley]

MaiChai, on 2009-07-03 15:25:05, said:

Quote

4 pending charges of lèse-majesté against Jonathan Head, is he setting a record?

Thats probably why he is being reposted somewhere else? Bring a new face and start afresh?

He was still in BKK this morning so not sure where this story of him being in or being posted to Turkey comes from.
What are the chances of him being arrested at the airport should he try to leave?

[justanothercybertosser]

Sao Jiang Mai, on 2009-07-03 13:59:17, said:

... at this point it is one woman't complaint isn't it?

No, it isn't just that.
It is only the latest and worst of many such incidents in which the FCCT has been targeted, and also individual foreign journalists critical of the PAD. This woman is not only a well known PAD member, but it has been reported that her family is very close to Privy Council member Thanin (his short rule after the '76 events were memorable for its massive human rights abuses).

[justanothercybertosser]

Samuian, on 2009-07-03 14:20:02, said:

But still think strongly that "mudslinging"and trying to discredit  the countries highly revered institution has NOTHING to do with "media freedom" or "free speech" - it simply is either politically motivated, or the group/person lacks character!

In Germany there is something like a "self censorship", which calls for "ethical" Journalism - if this isn't an oxymoron in itself already...

The FCCT has not discredited the monarchy, and throwing around such accusations is slander.
On the opposite - as i pointed out - the FCCT has even published a very beautiful coffeetable book about the King.

As your second comment suggest - you appear to have a personal grudge against the profession of journalism.

[Hermano Lobo]

Jak down the Pub is a Publican. Why is this not allowed ?