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[Mario2008]

We allow the discussion of the case, but keep the monarchy out of the discussion. We are not going to discuss what His Majesty said or not. I hope that is clear

[samran]

animatic, on 2009-07-01 17:38:31, said:

slimdog, on 2009-07-01 22:58:39, said:

animatic, on 2009-07-01 22:56:13, said:

Might explain Johnathan Head's new posting to Turkey...?

Any chance of a source for this..

I was being ironic, based on this concept being bandied about in another thread or two this week.
Some just don't get ironic commentary, and some just get ignored mostly.

yeah, but he is going to Turkey. Heard it from him first hand (though he wouldn't know/remember me from a bar of soap).

Edited by samran, 2009-07-02 08:30:18.

[Scott]

It seems this charge is easier to catch than the swine flu. If your in the same room or near anyone, if you nod your head, you too can get charged.

I fully understand the right of any gov't to protect it's institutions. I just don't know if the heads of the police are the best ones to decide if a crime has been committed in this case.

[webfact]

samran, on 2009-07-02 01:29:52, said:

animatic, on 2009-07-01 17:38:31, said:

slimdog, on 2009-07-01 22:58:39, said:

animatic, on 2009-07-01 22:56:13, said:

Might explain Johnathan Head's new posting to Turkey...?

Any chance of a source for this..

I was being ironic, based on this concept being bandied about in another thread or two this week.
Some just don't get ironic commentary, and some just get ignored mostly.

yeah, but he is going to Turkey. Heard it from him first hand (though he wouldn't know/remember me from a bar of soap).

Do they have balconies in Turkey as well?

[grantbkk]

Rinrada, on 2009-07-01 22:56:26, said:

BBC has been banned in Burma and now Iran....maybe T/Land just trying to copy...

they do say say immitation is the niceness form of flattery...or sumit like that.

anyway ..free speech=democracy=libery ...took us some time so LOS just need a bit more leeway......

phuu cha cha ..like

"Amazing Thailand - Burma With Electricity" The new tag line from the Tourist Authority of Thailand

We can expect the same mobile telephone video from Thailand on the BBC that we saw in Iran recently and earlier in Burma.

Edited by grantbkk, 2009-07-02 08:59:13.

[jonclark]

LongborgP, on 2009-07-02 07:41:56, said:

jonclark, on 2009-07-02 07:08:57, said:

samgrowth, on 2009-07-02 06:33:17, said:

out of love of HM, does that make her a bad person?

Prove this was done out of love of HM!! and not for a different reason.

If I read the OP correctly and excuse the paraphrasing, the charges are being laid against the FCCT for selling DVDs, as the DVDs' contain content which 'insult' the monarchy namely the infamous speech given by Jakrapob.

If the content of the DVD is therefore the source of the charge, is it not therefore reasonable to conclude that website which provide the content of the speech i.e. youtube etc (and there are many others). should be charged under the same law.

If so, why single out the FCCT for individual treatment? Web availablity provides far wider distribution and anyone with half a brain can access it. Unlike the DVDs at the FCCT which were sold to members only?

As far as the source for providing the content of the speech, isn't that the FCCT itself? Don't they record their meetings themselves? The youtube etc. only display submitted videos, they don't provide the content and that would have been the FCCT-produced video.
If the FCCT produced and sold the video of a speech by Jakrapob and Jakrapob's case is determined to be that of lese majeste, then it follows that FCCT would be guilty of distributing it. This case will depend upon the outcome of Jakrapob's case.

Point taken. But, and maybe I'm being pedantic here, isn't the act of displaying the material through the web a form of distribution, albeit via a third party.

Also if I were to have recorded, say on a mobile phone, the speech and downloaded it onto a website or burnt it to DVD, then depending on the outcome of the Jakrapobs trial, would I be culpable in the same way as I would be the source? I recorded it, I uploaded it, I provided it.

The reason I'm interested is that as we all have cameras and other gadgets built into our phones, we have an ability to record and present information in a way like never before. I'm worried that the powers that be are worried by this and will try to make a legal precedent out of the FCCT along the lines of distributing inappropriate 'news / discussion' is punishable by law, which effectively holds back future 'grass roots' discussion of the future of the monarchy in Thailand.

Additionally, it seems to me that the issue isn't so much distributing and or selling the DVD's, but rather twisting the spirit of the Leese Majest law to punish the FCCT for allowing Jakrapob to speak on this topic.

[Motoon]

I think the timing is very odd and might indicative some other motives than jus pure love for country and HM. The Jakkrapong case is still hanging... Unfortunately to the masses it is again reported as these bloody farangs try to topple the monarchy... The different comments on the Manager site show how it is perceived and it is disturbing.

[nakachalet]

ALL MY FRIENDS IN THAILAND

just in case you have not noticed--99%+ OF THAIS LOVED THEIR ROYAL MAJESTY THE KING AND QUEEN
to the point of willing to give up one's life to protect the royal family.

whatever you say or do in reference to this most worshiped institution, you need to pay the utmost
respect.

unlike the american or the british citizen who can say funny things about the monarch, verbally or
in printed forms, such as funnies, cartoons etc.

but the thais would not be so understanding nor forgiving to hear or see their most loved royal leaders
being put into such position.

thai statue prescribes severe punishment but the individual red blooded loyal thais would be even more
punitive to the n-degree.

like the wise one said long time ago,

when you go to rome, just have fun and

do not deviate too much from the romans.... cheers

[animatic]

They are trying to imply that the contents of a news story, if disseminated as news,
and surely Jarapob's speach and it's case are newsworthy items,
by the very act of dissemination would mean that view is supported by the distributer.

That is patently not so in most all of the world.

And no the police are the last ones who should have sole control of these charges.

Since it is a constitutional issue, then they should go to an office of the Constitution court
set up for just such cases, with frivoulous prosecution clauses to prevent JUST such charges
as this one. I think there is much more to this than just a yellow shirt woman imagining she is
being super patriotic.

There is nothing to say she is yellow shirt at all, except a comment that she is critical of Thaksin.
it is uber -ironic that she is using a Thaksin like tactic to silence freedom of speech in the press.
A tactic well known by Thaksin's enemies.

Lets not confuse convenient nationalism with global paranoia and hate mongering.
It's always easier to find a loud minority screaming foul, than the quiet masses persevering.

Edited by animatic, 2009-07-02 09:30:11.

[samgrowth]

jonclark, on 2009-07-02 10:03:35, said:

LongborgP, on 2009-07-02 07:41:56, said:

jonclark, on 2009-07-02 07:08:57, said:

samgrowth, on 2009-07-02 06:33:17, said:

out of love of HM, does that make her a bad person?

Prove this was done out of love of HM!! and not for a different reason.

If I read the OP correctly and excuse the paraphrasing, the charges are being laid against the FCCT for selling DVDs, as the DVDs' contain content which 'insult' the monarchy namely the infamous speech given by Jakrapob.

If the content of the DVD is therefore the source of the charge, is it not therefore reasonable to conclude that website which provide the content of the speech i.e. youtube etc (and there are many others). should be charged under the same law.

If so, why single out the FCCT for individual treatment? Web availablity provides far wider distribution and anyone with half a brain can access it. Unlike the DVDs at the FCCT which were sold to members only?

As far as the source for providing the content of the speech, isn't that the FCCT itself? Don't they record their meetings themselves? The youtube etc. only display submitted videos, they don't provide the content and that would have been the FCCT-produced video.
If the FCCT produced and sold the video of a speech by Jakrapob and Jakrapob's case is determined to be that of lese majeste, then it follows that FCCT would be guilty of distributing it. This case will depend upon the outcome of Jakrapob's case.

Point taken. But, and maybe I'm being pedantic here, isn't the act of displaying the material through the web a form of distribution, albeit via a third party.

Also if I were to have recorded, say on a mobile phone, the speech and downloaded it onto a website or burnt it to DVD, then depending on the outcome of the Jakrapobs trial, would I be culpable in the same way as I would be the source? I recorded it, I uploaded it, I provided it.

The reason I'm interested is that as we all have cameras and other gadgets built into our phones, we have an ability to record and present information in a way like never before. I'm worried that the powers that be are worried by this and will try to make a legal precedent out of the FCCT along the lines of distributing inappropriate 'news / discussion' is punishable by law, which effectively holds back future 'grass roots' discussion of the future of the monarchy in Thailand.

Additionally, it seems to me that the issue isn't so much distributing and or selling the DVD's, but rather twisting the spirit of the Leese Majest law to punish the FCCT for allowing Jakrapob to speak on this topic.

Just like the Economist distributor in thailand. Whenever there is an article within mentioning the King, the distributor in thailand don't distribute that issue to avoid such charges

If the Economist distributor can do that, why can't FCCT? Farang never learn do they?

Edited by samgrowth, 2009-07-02 10:06:12.

[jayboy]

nakachalet, on 2009-07-02 03:24:51, said:

ALL MY FRIENDS IN THAILAND

just in case you have not noticed--99%+ OF THAIS LOVED THEIR ROYAL MAJESTY THE KING AND QUEEN
to the point of willing to give up one's life to protect the royal family.

whatever you say or do in reference to this most worshiped institution, you need to pay the utmost
respect.

unlike the american or the british citizen who can say funny things about the monarch, verbally or
in printed forms, such as funnies, cartoons etc.

but the thais would not be so understanding nor forgiving to hear or see their most loved royal leaders
being put into such position.

thai statue prescribes severe punishment but the individual red blooded loyal thais would be even more
punitive to the n-degree.

like the wise one said long time ago,

when you go to rome, just have fun and

do not deviate too much from the romans.... cheers

Any particular reason why you have adopted a parody (in my view rather patronising and offensive) of a Thai speaking pigeon English when the rest of your posts show exactly what you are.

[hammered]

Scott, on 2009-07-02 08:38:56, said:

It seems this charge is easier to catch than the swine flu. If your in the same room or near anyone, if you nod your head, you too can get charged.

I fully understand the right of any gov't to protect it's institutions. I just don't know if the heads of the police are the best ones to decide if a crime has been committed in this case.

I think that anyone can file a complaint re this charge and that it would be a brave policeman indeed who didnt then pursue the case. If the policeman just refused to prosecute it what could he be accused of?

This is extremely emotive stuff in Thailand and trying to look at it rationally doesnt work. Put on top of that, that all politcal parties without exception would love to be able to lable another as disloyal and there is little they can do to interfere. Abhisit has gone out more on a limb with his statements on these laws than any other elected poltician already.

Ultimately these will end up in court or be timed out until a later date. They dont however, do a lot for Thailand's international image, but right now no politician, policeman or prosecutor is going to put international stuff before local on this issue.

[jonclark]

nakachalet, on 2009-07-02 09:24:51, said:

like the wise one said long time ago,

when you go to rome, just have fun and

do not deviate too much from the romans.... cheers

Hmmmm.... Not so sure that's such a good adage to use this is Thailand, if I'd followed the behavior of many of my fellow 'romans' over the last few years I think i'd have ended up in jail, as many times non-romans would be critisied for typical 'roman' behaviour. Think of dropping litter in Sukhumvit or JJ market - a happy and popular 'roman' past time - Non romans beware !!! do not do as the romans are doing !!!

As to the rest of your post - The discussion is about the complaint against the FCCT not a discussion about the monarchy.

[Thai at Heart]

sriracha john, on 2009-07-01 14:24:54, said:

Woman Seeks Police Action against FCCT

A woman has filed a complaint with the police against the Foreign Correspondents Club of Thailand for selling VCDs of the alleged lese majeste speech by a former PM's Office Minister and translating a red-shirt leader's alleged lese majeste speeches into English and distributing them.

57-year-old Lackana Kornsilapa, who works as translator and adviser to a private company, filed a lese majeste suit at the Lumpini police station against Jonathan Head, BBC correspondent to Asia, and the 13 board members of the Foreign Correspondents Club of Thailand, or FCCT.

She alleged the accused had conspired to sell VCDs of the alleged lese majeste speech by former PM's Office Minister Jakrapob Penkair, given at the FCCT on August 29, 2007.

Moreover, the group also translated alleged lese majeste speeches by red-shirt leaders Veera Musikapong, and Nutthawut Saigua into English.

Lackana said she filed this complaint as a Thai national who respects and loves the Monarchy. She added that the FCCT may be attempting to smear the image of the Monarchy and damage Thailand with this action and noted a Thai newspaper may be involved.


-- Tan Network 2009-07-01

Isn't is a requisite of such "clubs" that a majority of the committee have to be Thai?

In all honesty, I would love to see them push this case to the bitter end so that the respective forces of journalism can put their considerable voice behind showing how badly drawn up this law is in reality.

Has a decision even been made as to whether statements in the actual speeches constitute "lese majeste"? If so how can they be accused before the actual statements have been judged? Oh the absurdity of it all.

[trogers]

Take a hypothetical case. In a public seminar, Mr. Gary in his speech accuses Prof. Tom of being a cheat and a liar. Mr. Gary's speech was recorded by the media.

Prof. Tom sue Mr. Gary for defamation.

The case is still pending in the courts, and the media make duplicates of the recordings of Mr.Gary's speech including the portions deemed defamatory to Prof. Tom and distributes them to the world at large.

Can Prof. Tom sue the media who made such a distribution? Or is his act of suing the media deemed an effort to silence the media?

[jonclark]

[/quote]

Just like the Economist distributor in thailand. Whenever there is an article within mentioning the King, the distributor in thailand don't distribute that issue to avoid such charges

If the Economist distributor can do that, why can't FCCT? Farang never learn do they?
[/quote]

Your last sentence is rather offensive to be honest - pigeon holing all westerners in the same slot and reinforcing typical Thai stereotypes of westerners.

We never learned what??? The courage of speaking our mind? Free speech?? Believing and practicing the values which were instilled in us by parents and teachers?? Maths?? Thai???

I think you'll find the distributor of the Economist was 'persuaded' to pull that edition. It wasn't an act of nationalism on his or her part.

As a matter of interest, does anyone know if the DVDs were sold and distributed before or after the initial LM charges were brought against Jakrapob??

[yeti]

4 pending charges of lèse-majesté against Jonathan Head, is he setting a record?

[lensta]

samgrowth, on 2009-07-02 06:33:17, said:

Just because Lackana Kornsilap have done something right, according to the law of the country, out of love of HM, does that make her a bad person?

Or should Thai people turn a blind eye, or too afraid to speak out, just because the alleged guilty party is a Farang organization?

The majority of the Thailand are simply afraid of Franag, and threat them as King.

and the majority of Thai people are to blind to see the truth

[jonclark]

sriracha john, on 2009-07-01 14:24:54, said:

She alleged the accused had conspired to sell VCDs of the alleged lese majeste speech.....

In simple terms this means....

She thinks they, the FCCT, might have done something, or have thought about doing something, that may or may not be illegal because the illegality of the whole thing has yet to be decided.

F***ing brilliant use of a legal system. I love this country

[Plus]

Let's see if I got this right - Jakrapob Penklair is currenty on the run and he openly advocates military struggle against Thai state, and foreign correspondents distribute DVDs of his speech???? Have they gone nuts???

There apparently isn't a single brain cell left in there.

They shouldn't try stuff like that even at home, forget while working as journalists in a foreign country.

[Mario2008]

As said before, we are not going to discuss the monarchy, or the role of the monarch in LM cases. One post has been deleted for this reason.

[Mario2008]

jonclark, on 2009-07-02 11:00:23, said:

sriracha john, on 2009-07-01 14:24:54, said:

She alleged the accused had conspired to sell VCDs of the alleged lese majeste speech.....

In simple terms this means....

She thinks they, the FCCT, might have done something, or have thought about doing something, that may or may not be illegal because the illegality of the whole thing has yet to be decided.

F***ing brilliant use of a legal system. I love this country

Seems the right procedure. You go to the police because you think someone broke the law, then there is an investigation on which it is decided to prosecute or not and then the court decide if the law was broken or not.

[jayboy]

Plus, on 2009-07-02 04:14:06, said:

Let's see if I got this right - Jakrapob Penklair is currenty on the run and he openly advocates military struggle against Thai state, and foreign correspondents distribute DVDs of his speech???? Have they gone nuts???

There apparently isn't a single brain cell left in there.

They shouldn't try stuff like that even at home, forget while working as journalists in a foreign country.

No you got it wrong....again.Jakrapob's appearance at the FCCT was long before the events of April this year.In any event your summary analysis of his position is misleading.Certainly he made some rather wild comments earlier this year but they were just that, comments.I wonder whether you were as outraged when a gang of military criminals actually went beyond comments and took over the country by force, installed a puppet government, rigged a constitution and generally spat at democracy.In any event it's also irrelevant whatever one's views to this thread.

You have a record of slandering foreign correspondents, presumably because some of them at least try to show the political situation is multi faceted and complex.Some of the most astute like Jonathan Head receive the most abuse and the reasons are rather transparent.As a side comment,Siripon in an otherwise sensible post earlier mentioned JH was naive in accepting Jakrapob's line in toto.I don't see this at all, and it's not reflected in JH's reports for the BBC.

As to the topic itself I think most rational people (i.e excluding the geniuses commenting on the Manager website) accept that the latest lese majeste charge simply confirms the need to reform the law before Thailand is damaged further.And as a firm believer in constitutional monarchy I agree with Abhisit that these frivolous and incredibly counter productive charges be stopped in their tracks.Nevertheless I recognise that against stupidity the gods themselves struggle in vain.

[animatic]

When do they get their scarlet letters sewn on?

Quote

And as a firm believer in constitutional monarchy I agree with Abhisit that these
frivolous and incredibly counter productive charges be stopped in their tracks.
Nevertheless I recognize that against stupidity the gods themselves struggle in vain.

Hear, hear!

Edited by animatic, 2009-07-02 11:52:22.

[xminator]

This law is pure genious... I'm just waiting for the first to realize that using the law might be in violation of the law itself. The result of the first complaint of LM because of a complaint of LM would be highly entertaining.

Hopefully someday someone in this beautifull country will realise that mixing religion and politics wont work. No matter what shape or color that religion might be, or how "cementing" that religions most fanatic supporters claim it to be.