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[scorecard]

Plus, on 2009-08-18 15:28:30, said:

Quote

It seems people are more interested in discussing the mechanism of how thaivisa brings the news.

Not at all, we are interested in how much credibility we should lend John Le Fevre. We don't spend so much time [anymore] discussing credibility of The Nation or any other sources, but John is different - he is new and his articles are posted under Thaivisa News banner, which is an unknown entity yet.

We are not asking him to disclose his sources, just show how he obtained his information. His partial reply wasn't fully satisfactory, at least to me.

I agree totally.

It seems to me that this site has , overall, a desire for and an actual good picture of professional operation and strong credibility.

Further, I would like to think that articles which appear under the "ThaiVisa News" banner, or in the 'Thailand News Clippings' thread have come from sources which have journalist professionalism and credibility and these artilces, in line with standard journalistic ethics, have been verified for accuracy.

So far I'm far from convinced.  

In regard to the article about civil servants being forced to sign the petition to decry red shirt pardon petition, where is some outcry from the udd/red shirts?.  It seems to me that the udd/red shirst would have tried to make big mileage out of this even if there was even a little smoke.  I repeat, where  the 'noise' from the red shirst, I can't hear any!

With respect to the moderators / the owners / directors , I would appreciate some comment, please.

[Insight]

MiG16, on 2009-08-18 15:53:10, said:

well I suggest the best way to try and find that out, if some aspects of it can be revealed, is to ask in forum support.

the news thread should be used to discuss the subject of the news, not the author of the news. I would make that same suggestion were the news coming from Bangkok Post, or Nation, or Far Eastern, or Economist, or whatever other source.

I suppose I can to some extent understand the need for people to question authenticity of news, however, if we allow that questioning to continue in every piece of article written by any author, we lose the purpose of posting any topic on this forum. as any topic written by say: the XXX, YYY, ZZZ, will then turn into a discussion of the integrity or credibility of journalists. hence my earlier, and repeated suggestion that: take up the issue in forum support.

I hope this is the last we see of this questioning on this thread. if people dont have any further views / snippets to share on the likelihood of whether or not civil servants may or may not be coerced to sign petitions, then I suggest there is no need to post further on this thread.
fairly logical to me.

(by the way - asking someone HOW they got certain information, to my limited English skill - translates also as the how of it will include who their sources of information are. how else do you expect him to answer that question? I think he already mentioned he interviewed some people, ie. civil servants in the north and northeast, short of revealing who the specific people are I cant think of how else he could have tried to answer that question without revealing the details of his source and compromising them)

MiG16 - are you serious about this?

[LaoPo]

caf, on 2009-08-18 04:13:21, said:

LaoPo, on 2009-08-17 17:59:42, said:

caf, on 2009-08-17 04:40:29, said:

I'll believe news when I am more confident of the source. I have no confidence in this one. And why is Lost in Los taking up the banner? What motivation?

I welcome newbies of course and they can contribute as much as the rest of us.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

..spoke the 5 months old "patronizing" baby member Caf, who: Joined: 2009-03-10....

LaoPo

Oh I see.. With 10828 posts you are right and others are wrong.

I actually support what you are trying to say on this thread - le fevre has not sepite his fan club prove dhis credibility.  he is not now even replying to points made to him.

Your problem Laopo is you don't respect other people's opinions. You worry about face more than the average Thai.

1. The number of posts has nothing to do with being right or wrong. YOU are creating a difference by writing a patronizing comment about another poster.
If you would have known me a bit longer than the mere 5 months you are a member now, you would known that I have no problems in admitting if I'm wrong. I did before and will do so again if I'm wrong. That's a lot more than the majority of members would ever do...admitting they're wrong...

2. I do respect others more than you could imagine. However, I do have a problem with your patronizing attitude which you not only show in this thread but other threads as well.

What gives you the self awarded right to patronize another member who has less posts than you but is a member since December 2008 and you since March 2009 ? Is he less of a member than you ?  

I would NEVER write such a patronizing sentence as you did; see above.........."....they can contribute as much as the rest of us"  

When does "the rest of us" start and become as important as you are ? After 100 posts or your 500+ posts ?

Give me a break.

LaoPo

[LaoPo]

Sao Jiang Mai, on 2009-08-18 05:12:13, said:

LaoPo, on 2009-08-17 17:42:27, said:

Sao Jiang Mai, on 2009-08-17 09:11:58, said:

I don't see why people get so huffy and precious about their opinions. The reason we all come to this site and post here is because we enjoy debate, not simply to read news - which we can find in many other (and perhaps more reputable) sources.  Lao po and others who pour scorn on such debate are welcome to not join in, it is their right, as posting our opinions surely is ours.  If we all agreed with each other then what is the point of being here?  While I completely dissagree with many posters, I really do enjoy reading their opinions and get a kick out of responding.  Surely that is the purpose of this forum.  So it is perfectly legitimate to question a source which has not been corroborated by any other.  The reds also thoroughly enjoy slagging off The Nation for its bias, and they have every right to do so too.  Why do people get so high on their horses that they don't allow others the right of debate to which they excercise?  I personally don't think that ThaiVisa should be posting it's own news, I think that impartiality is its key to its success, but I would welcome anyone who doesn't share my opinions.  And to respond to a debate a few pages ago, because I dislike Thaksin (and have done so for nearly a decade) does not make me at all supportive of PAD, I think they were awful.  Two wrongs do not make a right.  The reds are the immediate danger these days, if the yellows start playing silly buggers again I will jump onto the bandwagon and condemn them too.

....I poured scorn on the debate ?...... ...I am "welcome to not join in"...?

And, WHO are you Sao Jiang Mai  -at least I write your name correct- to decide so?

I think you should start reading a little better and reread my initial and first post in this debate:

http://www.thaivisa....24#entry2942824

But, I'm relieved you wrote that fellow members are entitled to their own opinion and that you "welcome anyone who doesn't share my opinions".

Maybe someone can open a window...strong smell inside.

LaoPo

Not a very nice reply there Laopo!

Right, first of all WHO am I?  Who are you?  Isn't that the point of an annonymous forum? But because I have nothing to hide, my name is xxxxxxxx


Please try not to be so rude to other posters and lets get back to the debate.  Thank you.

...Not a nice reply......me, being rude ....?     to someone who starts writing about me "I poured scorn on the debate" ? Who writes I'm "welcome to not join in"?

What a world.

PS: I was asking "Who are you?" as a rhetorical question but maybe that escaped you   since I have no interest whatsoever to search who you are.

LaoPo

[Yoshitaka]

Must I have 100 posts or 500+ posts to be heard?

[Scott]

One post is enough. What exactly is it that you would like us to hear?  We do listen.  We don't always listen well, but we do listen.

[geriatrickid]

I find it interesting that  as soon as those in the  "anti thaksin" camp see something that is not favourable to their position they immediately get angry and hurl invective. Unfortunately, the truth hurts.    Why is anyone surprised that  the government would use strong arm tactics. Mr. Mugabe has done the same thing, as has Chavez. I am sure we will soon see petition participation rates that will rival the election participation rates of North Korea, Cuba and Hussein era Iraq.

Neither side in this dispute smells nice. Both sides are horrible, That's the reality. Welcome to the wonderful world of Thai politics.
And now  we should understand why the average Thai  disengages from politics and hopes for the best.

[mca]

In my humble opinion what gripes me is how the Democrats seem to act as if they've got the moral high ground in matters. They're all as bad as each other. I remember during the last election my wife's cousin who's an army colonel telling me about trucking the squaddies down en masse to vote and those boys better be putting their "X" next to the Democrat candidate.

[Orac]

scorecard, on 2009-08-18 16:01:59, said:

Still no 'noise' from the udd/red shirts about the alleged petition to rebutt the red shirt pardon petition.

To me this speaks volumes.

I'm hard pressed to believe that PM Abhisit would have sanctioned such a petition and I can't believe he would have allowed any scenario whereby public servants etc., were forced to sign.

If his collation partners (some of whom are fairly brainless and I wouldn't trust many of them) did start up such a petition, I'm confident Abhisit would have squashed it immediately.

I repeat, where the 'noise' from the udd/red shirts?

So what do you make of the statement made by the Interior Minister about having six million signatures already - or is this in question too.

I am no udd/red shirt supporter and do hope that Abhisit is given the space to sort things out as he appears to be the best, if not only, good thing going for Thailand politically at the moment, however, given your valid points above, how much control does he have over his own government. It is my belief that it will not be the likes of Thaksin or the Red Shirts that will stop Abhisit from doing what is needed but problems caused from within his own government.

[Mario2008]

1 post deleted as being off topic.

I think that Mig was clear about what can be discussed and what not.

[Lite Beer]

Post discussing Moderation has been deleted as per forum rules.

[Sao Jiang Mai]

Bickering and snide comments aside, has this news been corroborated at all?  I really am interested to know.

[Mario2008]

1 comment deleted as off-topic.

[Orac]

caf, on 2009-08-20 09:32:46, said:

I am not slinging mud - -read my post 151 again,  And maybe read some of Plus's and others posts.

SR has again in post 129 commented on no corroboration. A point he made in the early days of the thread.

Sorry caf but I am not getting dragged back into this arguement again, especially as the mods have clearly requested that we stick to the topic AND that you already answered this post in your post number 167.

What comments do you have on my latest post:

"So what do you make of the statement made by the Interior Minister about having six million signatures already - or is this in question too.

I am no udd/red shirt supporter and do hope that Abhisit is given the space to sort things out as he appears to be the best, if not only, good thing going for Thailand politically at the moment, however, given your valid points above, how much control does he have over his own government. It is my belief that it will not be the likes of Thaksin or the Red Shirts that will stop Abhisit from doing what is needed but problems caused from within his own government.  "

[caf]

Sao Jiang Mai, on 2009-08-19 17:29:11, said:

Bickering and snide comments aside, has this news been corroborated at all?  I really am interested to know.

I think not.  See SR posts 14  and 129.

Perhaps Photojourn could provide an update.  The more credibilty a journalist has the more people will read his or her posts believing them to be accurate and unbiased.

[caf]

Orac, on 2009-08-20 09:45:44, said:

caf, on 2009-08-20 09:32:46, said:

I am not slinging mud - -read my post 151 again,  And maybe read some of Plus's and others posts.

SR has again in post 129 commented on no corroboration. A point he made in the early days of the thread.

Sorry caf but I am not getting dragged back into this arguement again, especially as the mods have clearly requested that we stick to the topic AND that you already answered this post in your post number 167.

What comments do you have on my latest post:

"So what do you make of the statement made by the Interior Minister about having six million signatures already - or is this in question too.

I am no udd/red shirt supporter and do hope that Abhisit is given the space to sort things out as he appears to be the best, if not only, good thing going for Thailand politically at the moment, however, given your valid points above, how much control does he have over his own government. It is my belief that it will not be the likes of Thaksin or the Red Shirts that will stop Abhisit from doing what is needed but problems caused from within his own government.  "
      

No. I have not questioned that.

As for Abhisit, he leads a coalition government which  never makes government easy. Pressure from opposition parties whether resident here or not, given his majority, makes it difficult too. Difficult too to make decisions which he might favour given the culture here ( if i can put that rather loosely)

What spoils this thread - as Saojiangmai has alluded to - is the propensity to be vindictive sometimes rather than responding to a valid point.

If I disagree with a point I say so and am happy to be corrected or listen to further argument. More usually, the flaming starts.  Not just me of course this is a general comment and just my 5 baht worth. Laopo has made some good points but then starts getting childish, for example, which alienates his cause. Two posters at least have commented directly on that, many more indirectly.

[Orac]

Caf,

Sorry but I did not copy the post I was responding to above which was from Scorecard who questioned the very existence if the second petition.

scorecard, on 2009-08-18 16:01:59, said:

Still no 'noise' from the udd/red shirts about the alleged petition to rebutt the red shirt pardon petition.

To me this speaks volumes.

I'm hard pressed to believe that PM Abhisit would have sanctioned such a petition and I can't believe he would have allowed any scenario whereby public servants etc., were forced to sign.

If his collation partners (some of whom are fairly brainless and I wouldn't trust many of them) did start up such a petition, I'm confident Abhisit would have squashed it immediately.

I repeat, where the 'noise' from the udd/red shirts?

With regards to flaming and childish behaviour of some on this thread, of which I have been equally responsible for, can we move on and discuss the topic as requested by the mods.  I understand your request for more corrobaration but this has already been commented on by MIG.

Your suggestion that the reporter should be unbiased in his reporting is odd in that a great deal of reporting is biased (some who have done 'media studies' would argue all) as they are made from a personal viewpoint of the reporter and, sometimes though I don't beleive it in this case, the editorial policy of the news provider. Photojourns political views are a known quantity and therefore political bias should be assumed.  Personally I am a right wing capitalist but some of my favourite correspondents/political pundits - John Pillger and George Galloway to name a couple, have very stong left wing biases - but what happens here is they tell me things that I should hear rather than the things I want to hear. It is up to me to make up my mind but by hearing only one side of a story my opinion is automatically going to be questionable.

Cheers
Orac

[teetersb]

I have asked my wife to talk to her neighbor, a woman that works at the local Amphur office in Surin Province, whether there has been a command to sign this anti-petition. The woman said there has been nothing at the Amphur and she, as many others in the area, had signed the original petition to exonerate Taksin. Most of the people in the area are rabid Taksin fans. So, this begs the question of validity for Mr. LeFevre's article about a " forced signature campaign being conducted throughout the country".  

[clausewitz]

scorecard, on 2009-08-18 16:01:59, said:

Still no 'noise' from the udd/red shirts about the alleged petition to rebutt the red shirt pardon petition.

To me this speaks volumes.

I'm hard pressed to believe that PM Abhisit would have sanctioned such a petition

From todays nation
By The Nation
Published on August 20, 2009

The government naively responded by summoning local leaders to gather a bigger number of people to oppose the peti-tion. It was an embarrassing political blunder. The govern-ment realised later that mobilis-ing the masses to crush the dream of Thaksin's supporters would only aggravate the situa-tion. In other words, it has fallen into Thaksin's trap. That is why the anti-petition move was quickly shelved

[Mario2008]

Several off topic posts have been deleted. It seems some people still not get the message.

[TAWP]

clausewitz, on 2009-08-20 11:39:52, said:

scorecard, on 2009-08-18 16:01:59, said:

Still no 'noise' from the udd/red shirts about the alleged petition to rebutt the red shirt pardon petition.

To me this speaks volumes.

I'm hard pressed to believe that PM Abhisit would have sanctioned such a petition

From todays nation
By The Nation
Published on August 20, 2009

The government naively responded by summoning local leaders to gather a bigger number of people to oppose the peti-tion. It was an embarrassing political blunder. The govern-ment realised later that mobilis-ing the masses to crush the dream of Thaksin's supporters would only aggravate the situa-tion. In other words, it has fallen into Thaksin's trap. That is why the anti-petition move was quickly shelved

I.e. to use their own political machine, i.e. copy Thaksins/UDDs strategy, to create a petition was seen as a stupid thing. Which it was.

Nothing about forcing civil servants to sign someone or be fired.

That is a misrepresentation of the news-articles meaning.