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[SHYTALK]

caf, on 2009-08-20 15:12:47, said:

chiang mai, on 2009-08-19 22:00:47, said:

KireB, on 2009-08-18 08:24:48, said:

chiang mai, on 2009-08-17 23:52:59, said:

Unless you've lived in poverty for say, 35 or 45 years of your life, how would you know?

What an utter nonsense! Unless we are talking starvation-poor, crime is purely an act of greed and ego-centrism
The biggest thieves around are too often the least poor!

See your boy Thaksin for example.

I am indeed talking of starvation poor or near there to, there are hundreds of thousands of them in Thailand.

Yes I agree. I have seen this also


Correct, it would be more appropriate for these guys to turn their fire on the corrupt thai elite, and their masters, than the starvation poor.

But most expats do not have that experience which is why you are getting criticised. Other than suggest they take a look themselves and talk to more Thai people there is no answer.

Sometimes it is a human trait not to accept something outside one's own experience.

[chiang mai]

caf, on 2009-08-20 15:12:47, said:

chiang mai, on 2009-08-19 22:00:47, said:

KireB, on 2009-08-18 08:24:48, said:

chiang mai, on 2009-08-17 23:52:59, said:

Unless you've lived in poverty for say, 35 or 45 years of your life, how would you know?

What an utter nonsense! Unless we are talking starvation-poor, crime is purely an act of greed and ego-centrism
The biggest thieves around are too often the least poor!

See your boy Thaksin for example.

I am indeed talking of starvation poor or near there to, there are hundreds of thousands of them in Thailand.

Yes I agree. I have seen this also

But most expats do not have that experience which is why you are getting criticised. Other than suggest they take a look themselves and talk to more Thai people there is no answer.

Sometimes it is a human trait not to accept something outside one's own experience.

Solely for the sake of keeping this topic going, because, I do think that more expats need to understand this point:

I cannot begin to count the number of Westerners I have met under various situations in Thailand who have claimed to, "live here", "know Thailand well" and/or, "understand". When the conversations went to the next level of detail it was always clear that those people really had very little exposure to or experience of Thailand - been to Pattaya many times (four times a year or more) and always it was an airport to Pattaya trip by taxi and the same on the return after three or four weeks of "fun" - been to Phuket, seen Chiang Mai and of course, knows Sukhumvit well - one, maybe two visits or more to a rural village to see "the family" but always by taxi and boy, I can't wait to get back to civilization. It's laughable.

How can any of those people actually claim to have seen or begun to understand anything about Thailand as a country or as an economy or as a social environment.  Nada I say! But some "experts" here may see things differently.

[KireB]

chiang mai, on 2009-08-21 21:59:10, said:

How can any of those people actually claim to have seen or begun to understand anything about Thailand as a country or as an economy or as a social environment.  Nada I say! But some "experts" here may see things differently.

Some poverty experts like yourself that is!
Poverty leads to crime and corruption is just not true. Think about it, as it quite the opposite actually.

Crime and corruption lead to poverty!

Edited by KireB, 2009-08-22 06:58:43.

[caf]

KireB, on 2009-08-22 06:57:47, said:

chiang mai, on 2009-08-21 21:59:10, said:

How can any of those people actually claim to have seen or begun to understand anything about Thailand as a country or as an economy or as a social environment.  Nada I say! But some "experts" here may see things differently.

Some poverty experts like yourself that is!
Poverty leads to crime and corruption is just not true. Think about it, as it quite the opposite actually.

Crime and corruption lead to poverty!

Can you explain how someone who commits a crime or is corrupt becomes or creates poverty?

Generally, worldwide, there is a correlation between crime and poverty. The question is which creates which. I think poverty creates crime. You obviusly don't.   So explain your hypothesis.

[brahmburgers]

Crime exists on all social strata levels, from the down-and-out tramp reeking of 3 day old urine, to the Bernie Madoffs and Shinawatres.    Obviously upper crust crime reaps gazillion more dollars than taxi cheats.

The airport rip-offs  appear to be coordinated by some low to mid-level sheisters.  Taxi drivers are at the lower rungs of the social ladder, but generally not downtrodden, so rip-offs among their ranks are probably doing comfortably well as long as they're getting away with it.

The extortions re; Duty Free appear to be perpetrated by three factions:  

>>>   check-out tellers and others working with King Power
>>>   compliant police, or others in authority posing as police
>>>   Sri Lankan Tony, who is the lynchpin in the operation, as his personal account is where the extortion money is transferred to.  

Perhaps there are others doing what Tony does.  That's part of the reason top gov't people are requesting the general public (anyone who's been scammed) to step forward and offer additional info.  I respect the gov't requests on this, though they're typically months behind the 8 ball.   Readers of T.Visa (and others) have known about these extortions for months, and we've also known how damaging such reports are to tourism.   Yet, it's expected that top officials would drag their feet for months - before appearing to take dynamic action.   Oh well, better late than never.  

Even with top gov't taking notice, some of the key  perpetrators (Tony and the cops, for example) won't be disciplined.   My guess is the most that will happen is some verbal admonitions for the naughty ones, then all will devolve back to 'biz as usual.'

[cyb]

I am at a serious loss to explain what i want to say here,  So if it comes out wrong i'm sorry no flames please.
It's a well known fact that poverty can and does breed crime.  Couple that with greed and you have something more serious.
When i first met my wife in 1976 i think or was it 77 lol,  Her family were very poor barely enough to eat from day to day.
They did not think about scamming or stealing from others they just accepted it and got on with their lives as best they could.
If that ment scouring the roadsides for something wild and edible or trapping wild animals they did it.  The very thought of taking something that did not belong to them never entered their head.
Now times have changed from those good days to take what you can when you can and not think about tomorrow.

Edited by cyb, 2009-08-22 08:21:22.

[KireB]

caf, on 2009-08-22 08:26:32, said:

KireB, on 2009-08-22 06:57:47, said:

chiang mai, on 2009-08-21 21:59:10, said:

How can any of those people actually claim to have seen or begun to understand anything about Thailand as a country or as an economy or as a social environment.  Nada I say! But some "experts" here may see things differently.

Some poverty experts like yourself that is!
Poverty leads to crime and corruption is just not true. Think about it, as it quite the opposite actually.

Crime and corruption lead to poverty!

Can you explain how someone who commits a crime or is corrupt becomes or creates poverty?

Generally, worldwide, there is a correlation between crime and poverty. The question is which creates which. I think poverty creates crime. You obviusly don't.   So explain your hypothesis.

Its more a philosophical stance than a scientific hypothesis, but I'd like to believe that there's enough to eat for us all on this planet and if we would share a bit more rather than stealing from one another, no one would have to be poor.

Hallelujah

[cyb]

KireB, on 2009-08-22 09:55:33, said:

caf, on 2009-08-22 08:26:32, said:

KireB, on 2009-08-22 06:57:47, said:

chiang mai, on 2009-08-21 21:59:10, said:

How can any of those people actually claim to have seen or begun to understand anything about Thailand as a country or as an economy or as a social environment. Nada I say! But some "experts" here may see things differently.

Some poverty experts like yourself that is!
Poverty leads to crime and corruption is just not true. Think about it, as it quite the opposite actually.

Crime and corruption lead to poverty!

Can you explain how someone who commits a crime or is corrupt becomes or creates poverty?

Generally, worldwide, there is a correlation between crime and poverty. The question is which creates which. I think poverty creates crime. You obviusly don't. So explain your hypothesis.

Its more a philosophical stance than a scientific hypothesis, but I'd like to believe that there's enough to eat for us all on this planet and if we would share a bit more rather than stealing from one another, no one would have to be poor.

Hallelujah

I think you need to do some serious research, This world (earth) in reality is slowly approaching negative equity as far as food supplies are concerned.
This has seriously being affected by organic foods,  whilst i agree in princible use less chemicals.  It does not help the production quotas.
We have to create a midway balance between health food stuff and mass production,  Or forget about health at least that way the world population would not increase at so alarmimg rate.

[slapout]

cyb; Your statement  "Poverty can and does breed crime" and then the story of your wife's family being poor but never thinking of stealing, seem to contradict each other. The experts have a difficult time pinpointing the cause of crime. Greed,  laziness, peer pressure, anger, jealously, welfare of loved one, impulse, mental illness, etc are excuses/rationale offered. But then you have millions of people like your wife's family who go thru life poor and even help others with what little they have. I guess if medical/science people find the root cause, action could be undertaken to eliminate/cure the problem, which does not seem to correlate with physical surroundings (poverty).

[cyb]

slapout, on 2009-08-22 10:30:07, said:

cyb; Your statement "Poverty can and does breed crime" and then the story of your wife's family being poor but never thinking of stealing, seem to contradict each other. The experts have a difficult time pinpointing the cause of crime. Greed, laziness, peer pressure, anger, jealously, welfare of loved one, impulse, mental illness, etc are excuses/rationale offered. But then you have millions of people like your wife's family who go thru life poor and even help others with what little they have. I guess if medical/science people find the root cause, action could be undertaken to eliminate/cure the problem, which does not seem to correlate with physical surroundings (poverty).

You have not understood my post not 1% of it.
As regards my wifes family (look at the date 70'S)
Times have changed and not for the better and it is fxxx all to do with medical.

[cyb]

cyb, on 2009-08-22 10:55:56, said:

slapout, on 2009-08-22 10:30:07, said:

cyb; Your statement "Poverty can and does breed crime" and then the story of your wife's family being poor but never thinking of stealing, seem to contradict each other. The experts have a difficult time pinpointing the cause of crime. Greed, laziness, peer pressure, anger, jealously, welfare of loved one, impulse, mental illness, etc are excuses/rationale offered. But then you have millions of people like your wife's family who go thru life poor and even help others with what little they have. I guess if medical/science people find the root cause, action could be undertaken to eliminate/cure the problem, which does not seem to correlate with physical surroundings (poverty).

You have not understood my post not 1% of it.
As regards my wifes family (look at the date 70'S)
Times have changed and not for the better and it is fxxx all to do with medical.

Look again i said can and does breed crime, Not that i said always breeds crime so there is no contridiction on my part.  Only misinterpretation on yours.

[brahmburgers]

cyb, on 2009-08-22 10:55:56, said:

slapout, on 2009-08-22 10:30:07, said:

cyb; Your statement "Poverty can and does breed crime" and then the story of your wife's family being poor but never thinking of stealing, seem to contradict each other. The experts have a difficult time pinpointing the cause of crime. Greed, laziness, peer pressure, anger, jealously, welfare of loved one, impulse, mental illness, etc are excuses/rationale offered. But then you have millions of people like your wife's family who go thru life poor and even help others with what little they have. I guess if medical/science people find the root cause, action could be undertaken to eliminate/cure the problem, which does not seem to correlate with physical surroundings (poverty).

You have not understood my post not 1% of it.
As regards my wifes family (look at the date 70'S)
Times have changed and not for the better and it is fxxx all to do with medical.

It has a lot more to do with peoples' characters, than it does with dates.  Similarly, it has more to do with culture - what's accepted, how nurturing are parents/guardians, etc.    Each month I meet  poor people who share the attributes you mentioned for your adopted 'family' of 30 years ago.    Similarly, I can easily see such decent qualities being extant in far earlier times and in the future.

I will concede, however, that the prevasive and hypnotic prevelance of stupidity-bolstering TV and grossly violent videos (and computer games) do have a blanket affect on the watchers, particularly youngsters.    In that sense, a case might be made that future  generations will become increasingly  decadent and deviant than earlier generations.   Even so, there were still commensurate bad influences as long as there have been people (wars, tortures, rapes, swindling, etc).

Homo Sapiens are a strange species overall, and we share unique traits (among animals) that are lamentable, with some traits being downright despicable.  I could make a list as long as your arm - which incidentally I did in an earlier T.Visa post.  

So, to crow about a family that is humble and which scavenges for food.  Well, those are characteristics that are no better than those of a bat,  a beaver or a legless lizard.  The ball's in your court.

[chiang mai]

I think the earlier point had to do with the numbers of starving people in Thailand, before we get too abstract and philosophical about all of this!

The point I wanted to make is that such people exist here in the hundreds of thousands. So when we Westerners cast our worldy and knowledgeable western views on local events that have taken place involving local people, it's important to remember the fact that hunger and poverty are decisive drivers - but the Pattaya/Upper Sukhumvit crowd wouldn't understand that!