Prev Page 3 of 8 1 2 3 4 5 Next » Please log in to reply 187 replies to this topic

[sedeflonga]

tim73, on 2009-08-16 08:35:18, said:

sedeflonga, on 2009-08-16 14:28:38, said:

That can happen to 'anyone' who breaks the law. You break it, u pay for it.

Easy for you to say when you are not the one living on 5000 Baht salary or less and still trying to send money to your family.

"You break it, u pay for it."

Except Wall Street banksters? Or London Banksters.

Tim, for your information: Thailand has a law and if you break it you pay for it, whether you like it or not. You can try to tell the judge that you only have 5,000 Baht per month and have to send money. You will not get any compassion because it is not the victims fault that you can not find more money in your situation, be realistic.

By the way: There are countries were people get much less then 5,000 Baht and as we know the law is much tougher then in Thailand (e.g. Africa - cross-amputation). It is a very heinous crime to accuse someone of theft without that person has doing it, EXTORT RANSOM and let them go, now is that what u want to see in Thailand, I ask you? And what would you think if you would be one of these guys who gets without reason detained?

This is not a simple scam where a soup shop charges a farang 50 Baht instead 25/30baht. It affects the whole country, Thailand.

There is absolutely no excuse.

Think again

Edited by sedeflonga, 2009-08-16 15:47:46.

[animatic]

astral, on 2009-08-16 14:01:23, said:

geovalin, on 2009-08-16 13:18:43, said:

In French we say "pisser dans un violon".
In English, I guess it's "raking water up a hill" or "herding cats".

Pissing into the wind..........
comes to mind.

Never heard of the others.

Sailors avoid; Pissing to windward

Herding kittens; even more fun than cats.

J'ai toujour adorait; pisser dans un violin...

[asean]

tim73, on 2009-08-16 13:34:12, said:

john b good, on 2009-08-16 13:07:28, said:

Yes!!  But it is unlikely to ever happen (any change) Corruption is built into the Thai psyche.  

Try living with 5000 Baht in a month or less and support your family back in home at the same time. I'd bet you would be collecting all kinds of "fees" pretty soon if you were a cop here. Of course it is wrong but being hungry makes people do all kinds of things.

The problem is the ridiculous low salaries but if those salaries were any better, you guys would complain why Thailand is so expensive. Then you would complain about corruption in Cambodia. You cannot have it both ways. Corruption is a big problem all the countries in which the salaries are too low.

It is even big problem even in the US where Wall Street has basically bought the whole system and are given hundreds of billions to pay big bonuses to banksters by the US government! So maybe corruption is also built into American psyche too? Or European psyche when dealing with EU support money for various shady projects all around?

You hit it right on the head. Most farangs live here because most things in life are cheaper than back home. But it doesn't stop them complaining everyday. If you were earning what these people get paid then you would also get on board the gravy train in case your kids get sick. I am not excusing the scams but at ground level accept that it is a side affect of an underlying cause. Considering how low these people are paid (a situation that most farangs take full advantage of) i believe the level of service and honesty is surprisingly high. We can fix all this buy improving education, social health, workers compensation, workers benefits, police salaries, highly paid internal affairs, higher salaries all around, funded by higher taxes and guess what? It will then be too expensive for most farangs to retire here on their paltry by western standard pensions. Add to that the fact that once all the girls here have real education, degrees, good paying jobs or a Thai husband with same, they won't have to feign affections or sexual attraction with old fat desperate farang drunks. But then i guess there is always the Philippines. But wait a minute what was the reason you all preferred Thailand? Someone mentioned Singapore. Why are so many SG expats moving to Thailand? Some one mentioned Kingpower Exclusive right. Sounds like Halliburton's exclusive right to Iraq.

[pepi2005]

Stop it on the airport ...

-- but in the rest of the country (where exactly the same happens hundreds if not thousands of times every day), it's still 'accepted' ...  

Edited by pepi2005, 2009-08-16 15:38:35.

[cinner]

While he's at it he should require the sourpuss immigration staff to go through some retraining on customer service.  For the "land of smiles" having your first and last impression being these disgruntled Thais at immigration isn't helping tourism.  In general the Thai immigration staff  I've encounter at BKK are the rudest and most unhappy people I've encountered in any country--- and compared to many other Thais they make a pretty good salary..  Perhaps they can install one of those "how am I doing" systems like they did in Beijing … because I was very impressed by the wonderful immigration staff in China.

[tim73]

tpatrickc1969, on 2009-08-16 15:24:18, said:

Corruption is built into the Thai system at every level.  It is so ingrained into the society that most Thais don't even see it as corruption.

Well, corruption is nowadays built into the American system too. Judges giving extra long sentences because they got money from PRIVATIZED prison industry...real big pot calling the kettle black.  Hundreds of thousands of de facto slave workers working for private prison companies for mere pennies. Whole towns dependent on their dear prisons as the main source of income. After privatization the number of prisons and prisoners skyrocketed in the US, I wonder why...

Still you guys are here...nothing to do with the fact it is dirt cheap and you can live like a big boss here, even with rather minimal pension or income? Could not possible be...

[mark2552]

sunny747, on 2009-08-16 12:44:08, said:

better late then never.

[hardy1943]

eurozhongguo, on 2009-08-16 14:44:49, said:

It is, of course, awful how this airport has been treating foreign tourists who are after all the backbone of the Thai economy and without whom Thailand would more closely resemble Cambodia than the modern country it is today. However, coming from an area of my own country that is very touristy and overtaken by tourists in high season many of whom decide to stay permanently, just like in Thailand, I can sympathise to a certain extent as we here also hate tourists even though they are the backbone of our economy here too.

I here a lot on this forum and others about bribery and corruption, the allegations often being made by Americans. I find this rather strange since a bribe is a pre-service tip, or put another way, a tip is a post-service bribe. In the US, you have to pay this post-service bribe to all and sundry. Americans say this is because the post-service bribe makes up most of the servers' etc salary since they are poorly-paid. They are paid a million times better than Third-World employees. Therefore, no wonder the latter prefer a pre-service tip.

These comments in no way justify the events at Subarnabhumi, but is a case of maybe you should put your own house in order first.

I do not know where you come from, I was born in Germany, immigrated to America in the 1957
we all did farm work before we learned the language while we where going to school. We ended up now many
years later because of honest work with 3 rocket science professors 4 teachers and 2 engineers.
I have lived in 6 different countries, some much poorer then here. All I can tell you that you do not have the slightest idea what you talking about.

[Brewsta]

tpatrickc1969, on 2009-08-16 17:24:18, said:

eurozhongguo, on 2009-08-16 14:44:49, said:

I here a lot on this forum and others about bribery and corruption, the allegations often being made by Americans. I find this rather strange since a bribe is a pre-service tip, or put another way, a tip is a post-service bribe. In the US, you have to pay this post-service bribe to all and sundry. Americans say this is because the post-service bribe makes up most of the servers' etc salary since they are poorly-paid. They are paid a million times better than Third-World employees. Therefore, no wonder the latter prefer a pre-service tip.

These comments in no way justify the events at Subarnabhumi, but is a case of maybe you should put your own house in order first.

Wait, let me get this straight. You are equating giving someone a tip with someone extorting money from me. If I go to a restaurant and eat, I have an option of leaving a tip. If I don't, I may not get a very nice reaction, but I won't be thrown in jail or worse. I also won't be taken to a seedy hotel and asked to many thousand time the bill in order to clear my indiscretion of not leaving a tip. That has got to be the most assinine statement I have ever heard. Oh, and by the way, if you leave a tip, so to speak (even an after service one), for someone to help you cheat the system, you go to jail.

As for scams being OK because of low salaries, let me ask you this, how much lower are the salaries going to get when tourist stop showing up or divert their holidays to places like Vietnam.

Finally, most of the expats living in Thailand are teaching english or writing or retired. They are living on these enormous salaries that you seem to think they are. And why is it that you don't think they have families to help back home which requires a great deal more money than it does here?

In the end, I doubt anything will ever happen. Corruption is built into the Thai system at every level. It is so ingrained into the society that most Thais don't even see it as corruption. The ones who have to pay complain but as soon as the role is reversed, they will ask for the money. Its a situation that foreigners living here must either learn to cope with or pack up and leave. You can complain all you want but I seriously doubt anything will change. Besides, I think some of the expats here would rather not have it all change... there are certain business that are illegal that many of the expats seem to enjoy endulging in.

Fragrant Grease , or the art of extortion gracefully or otherwise undertaken, is everywhere humans congregate, yes?

Yes.

...and I wonder what these certain illegal business(es - sic) are that seem to be widely enjoyed by huge numbers of tourists or immigrants......must investigate, methinks.

Stay safe and solvent, All.

regardz,

Brewsta

[mark2552]

Its never too late to enfore the law.  Its never too late to go after these dirt bags, arrest them where arrests can be made, and fine them where fines can be imposed, its never too late to fire them, its never to late to make an example of them and many others until they get the message.

[Grey11]

jfchandler, on 2009-08-16 13:58:51, said:

How about applying the same standard to the rest of the government and country???

Stop the scams...ripoffs.... payoffs... etc....  Or at least, give foreigners living or visiting in the country an official place to turn (English speaking) to help mediate such problems when they arise...  The Tourist Police clearly don't function in that role...even though they should....

PS - It's easy to issue directives and regulations in Thailand... It's far less easy to see that the rules are actually enforced so that things really change... like mandatory motorcycle helmets.... no smoking in indoor aircon bars... etc etc...

Are the issues of smoking and not wearing a helmet while riding a motorcyle really such serious issues?! Unbelievable.

[moskito]

THANKS to Khun Abhisit,

hopefully he will find the time and taking care of the Phuket (internationLOL) airport too.

Are there any more countries in this world, where one HAVE TO USE Mafiameters instead of a "normal" public transport system??

[mark2552]

mark2552, on 2009-08-16 15:49:12, said:

sunny747, on 2009-08-16 12:44:08, said:

better late then never.

[mark2552]

As American who travel out of the U.S.A and bacl. I have I ever paid a post-service bribe.   Englighten me where you have done that.

[slipperx]

Quote

You hit it right on the head. Most farangs live here because most things in life are cheaper than back home. But it doesn't stop them complaining everyday. If you were earning what these people get paid then you would also get on board the gravy train in case your kids get sick. I am not excusing the scams but at ground level accept that it is a side affect of an underlying cause. Considering how low these people are paid (a situation that most farangs take full advantage of) i believe the level of service and honesty is surprisingly high. We can fix all this buy improving education, social health, workers compensation, workers benefits, police salaries, highly paid internal affairs, higher salaries all around, funded by higher taxes and guess what? It will then be too expensive for most farangs to retire here on their paltry by western standard pensions. Add to that the fact that once all the girls here have real education, degrees, good paying jobs or a Thai husband with same, they won't have to feign affections or sexual attraction with old fat desperate farang drunks. But then i guess there is always the Philippines. But wait a minute what was the reason you all preferred Thailand? Someone mentioned Singapore. Why are so many SG expats moving to Thailand? Some one mentioned Kingpower Exclusive right. Sounds like Halliburton's exclusive right to Iraq.

So if something is cheaper you should say nothing?  In any case Thailand is not so cheap.  Having just been back to the UK food and beer are about the same as Thailand generally except cheese wine and other farang delicacies whcih are about 1/3rd the price.  A beach chair is about 80 baht a day not 200 as in Phuket for instance.  The police do not take bribes and there is a rule of law.  Thailand is a wonderful country in many ways but thre is plenty that needs improvement and nothing will happen if people do not stand up and say what they feel is acceptable or not.  I want Thailand to be a better place for my children than it is now and if I have to complain to achieve that then so be it.  If no one says or does anything nothing would ever get better but perhaps your sentiments which I am sure are shared by others, indicate that you are just a sheep who will follow whatever is the status quo.  You should also realise there are many expats who live here with families and who are not particularly rich.  It is easy to generalise though not particularly helpful.

[john b good]

clevenp, on 2009-08-16 13:31:10, said:

it will not help
just took a flight out of the airport and now they are introducing more rules

you need to take off your watch (be carefull where you put it and make sure it comes out at the other side)
you need to take out your belt (what the f???)

you cannot take out your shoes (strange as that is the norm in the US)

the staff is very unfriendly and if you comment on the stupidity of the new rule they are threating you for harassment ...

this is definitely not the LOS I remember when I first arrived 6 years ago

----
concerning the scams : as long as they allow those loose boundaries of the shops (no markings on the ground), the scams will continue

start with the basics and start marking the shops and allow space between them as a DMZ

my 2 cents

I do not agree with the staff is very unfriendly but friendliness is not the issue. The issues is introducing some ethics and integrity here in the realm.

ethics and integrity you won't find in a Thai dictionary  

[john b good]

Robroy, on 2009-08-16 13:33:16, said:

Arkady, on 2009-08-16 12:56:41, said:

What about transferreing the local police chief to Nakorn Nowhere and arresting the Sri Lankan dirt bag, who claimed to be called Tony, who acted as the police go betweenin the King Power scams?  He is bound to be guilty of work permit and visa offences as well as failing to pay income tax on his share of the extortion proceeds.

Agree.

Words from leaders are meaningless in SE Asia - no-one believes them. Only actions will demonstrate that this is anything more than piss & wind.

When the Sri Lankan dirtbag is in jail, & King Power has been shut down & its management tried, convicted & jailed, I will believe that the PM is serious about cleaning up the airport.

Until then international travellers would be wise to continue to route themselves around SVP.

"Words from leaders are meaningless in SE Asia"  I do not totally agree. Try screwing with the system in Singapore and see where it gets you.

If you say Thailand (and one ore two other countries) I agree with you 100%

Edited by john b good, 2009-08-16 16:28:31.

[john b good]

brennanstimpy, on 2009-08-16 13:33:46, said:

Am I the only one that sees that after these things happen time and time again that Thailand just isn't ready to run with the big dogs yet? They are still a second world developing country trying to take matters that are too big into their hands. It screaming out of everything from education to medicine, tourism and politics. None of this surprises me.

"2nd world" you gotta be kidding. They haven't got to 3rd world yet.

[WatersEdge]

tim73, on 2009-08-16 14:25:36, said:

There are no easy solutions for this. If they start prosecuting, most likely the people in lower ranks will be put to jail. That will make Thai people more angry and desperate because more and more families will lose their only source of income. That income supports whole families from kids to grandfathers back in the north or south.

Thanks tim73
Until today I didn't know what makes Thailand tick
Wall Street and London have something to do with it
Farang Upper Class making B50-100k are implicated to the core
Is that all Farangs make nowadays?  
Doesn't seem worth their trouble.
Do they live here or abroad?
How widely based is this phenomenon?

I think we see the root of the problem plain as day,
If farang upper class international bankers
would get off their overworked wallet laden pockets
to support someone else's family in the north and south,
then Thailand Airport officials would not corrupt themselves.

Maybe there's a future in prominent politics for you.

Or could there be a more obvious explanation right on the surface?
The whole point at Suvarnabhumi was that officials,  
in cahoots with shop clerks
were busting completely innocent travelers
Specific Order of Events
set up by the clerks,
arrested by the officials
whisked off to shady locations for bribe extraction
shaken down by scum middlemen trying to help
off to jail
more fines
Embassy intervention
more fines
thrown out of the country as a criminal
All in a day's travel expanded to a week of Bangkok hel_l...whew!

It's not difficult to identify, prosecute and imprison the guilty parties.
Whose pocket did the Bribe come to rest in?
Who was present when the traveler handed over the cash?
Call the criminal travelers back to testify...
they'd probably drop it all and fly back for another round.

How would that unjustly prosecute a person of low income?
Does his home village have a bearing?
Shall only middle class or well to do Bangkok thieves be culpable?
Shall we pay no attention to low income thieves?

But keep writing, continue thinking...the world is watching.
Last I looked, 768 logged in to this forum, 555 guests, 2 anonymous
You are noticed, You are a spokesman for the nation.
I'm an outsider here for a time, purpose and season.
One day I will completely leave you alone without a word.

[Jonathanpattaya]

Corruption is endemic in Thailand, everyone knows that. The thing that amuses me is how one corrupt official thinks he can order another corrupt official to stop scamming. How would it work. Maybe it would start with one official pointing his finger at another one and the accuser claiming he is less corrupt than the accused.

[ScubaBuddha]

copndocsdad, on 2009-08-16 14:48:43, said:

Baggage handlers; what baggage handlers?  I have been in and out of both airports many times in the past two years and have never even seen a baggage handler offer their services. Tote your own luggage; the carts are free and NOBODy checks ANYBODY'S baggage claim ticket anyway so the thief could just as esily be a Farang. all you gotta do is watch the bags go around and if it is not picked up the second time around chances are you could take it out without being challenged.
the theft most likely occurs when unloading the plane and the luggage is picked over and diverted to another location known by the thieves and airport officials who are getting their tea money for turning a blind eye.

The issue is with baggage handlers inside the secure areas of the airport between the time you hand over you checked luggage and the time you get it back from the carousel.

[tpatrickc1969]

Personally, I've found immigration officials to be unfriendly people in general, no matter where you go in the world.  I don't think its more so in Thailand, just a bit more obvious because the Thai people you meet while in the country generally seem friendly.  

What does a privatized US prison system have to do with an airport scam (or any othe scam) in Bangkok.  Yes, you will find corruption in every country but some take it seriously and some do not.  Thailand does not because it its built into the very fabric of the system.  Scams are constantly being uncovered and reported about in the west.  And the perpatrators usually end up in prison.  In Thailand, you only hear about the ones that involve whoever is out of power at the moment.  No one is willing to risk crossing the scamsters because its your arse on the line.  And as one earlier poster mentioned, even when the person is caught, they aren't really punished.  

I'm not even sure why you would bring up the notion that whole towns are built around a prison.  That's because it is a source for jobs.  The same is true everywhere in the world.  If there are jobs somewhere and you need one, you go there.  Just like Seattle was built around Boeing and Detroit was built around the auto industry.  I'm not even sure what your connection is there.

As for living cheap in Thailand, so what?  So someone can come to Thailand and live better off their pension than they did in their home country.  What's the point?  Those people don't count?  They are still bringing their income to Thailand and spending it in the country creating more jobs.  Why is this a crime.  And if they are living in this way, why aren't they entitled to an opinion.  Aren't they residents here also?  Why is it that you can give an opinion or point out a problem in the system ONLY if your Thai.

[hardy1943]

cinner, on 2009-08-16 15:41:20, said:

While he's at it he should require the sourpuss immigration staff to go through some retraining on customer service.  For the "land of smiles" having your first and last impression being these disgruntled Thais at immigration isn't helping tourism.  In general the Thai immigration staff  I've encounter at BKK are the rudest and most unhappy people I've encountered in any country--- and compared to many other Thais they make a pretty good salary..  Perhaps they can install one of those "how am I doing" systems like they did in Beijing … because I was very impressed by the wonderful immigration staff in China.

You are right, first time I came here in 2003 it was all smiles and Airport staff was extremely helpful to
to recover my lost luggage. All one had to do look around and someone would come and : can I help you?
Settled here in 2004 and have the greatest wife and Thai family and with a couple great policemen included.
Have witnessed the decline every year at BKK. My last experience was like a bad nightmare 2 month ago
coming back from Macau. Posted it here and was warned because of my strong language. My experience at
Macau, Hanoi, Penang, Hong Kong and Jakarta with Immigration was very pleasant, dreaded to come back to
BKK each time. My daughter from the US planning to come here in January, really do not want her to
go thru the hassle I did. Should tell her to stay there.
However I live in Chiang Rai my Immigration officers  in Mae Sai are as courteous and helpful as can be.

[mrchips377]

Great thread isn't this, got everything, corrupt police, tourist victims, overzealous retailers, sri lankan fixer, prime minister trying to step in, tourism industry crisis, wow, they should make a hollywood movie, "Carry On At The Airport" ! What a huge cock up !

[Screws]

geovalin, on 2009-08-16 13:18:43, said:

My feeling is that Abi had been offended because his fellows British mention the story.

Kudos to TV metinks.