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[asiawatcher]

What happened to freedom of speech?  If the Bangkok Post makes a comment in a public forum i.e. its newspaper, then why is that able to be commented/passed upon and censored here? They (BKK Post) made the statement publicly so why can't Thaivisa members pass comment on the article in a public forum?  Or do we have to get premises, cigars and chesterfields with brandy balloons and make comment behind closed doors...  how archaic!

The media is already censored in Thailand (heavily) so outlet's such as open discussion forums here give - in most cases - insight and understanding to what is being 'fed' to us by Bangkok Post!  Disagree George.  Nation or not, you are being pressured into submission.  Needless to say - we will all stand behind your decision but many, unwillingly.

[Brewsta]

sabaijai, on 2009-10-02 13:29:37, said:

Odd that one can find no mention of the "Society for Online News Providers" anywhere online, other than this thread.

Strange but true.

Could this potential figment of global speech freedom be a tentacle of PONSR (Purveyors of Nonsensical Scurrilous Rumours)....
or, Gawd forbid, MOGGIED (Misinformation Or Gaffs Globally Invented Every Day)

rgdzzzz,

Brewsta

Edited by Brewsta, 2009-10-02 12:35:20.

[mrtoad]

asiawatcher, on 2009-10-02 12:30:07, said:

What happened to freedom of speech?  If the Bangkok Post makes a comment in a public forum i.e. its newspaper, then why is that able to be commented/passed upon and censored here? They (BKK Post) made the statement publicly so why can't Thaivisa members pass comment on the article in a public forum?  Or do we have to get premises, cigars and chesterfields with brandy balloons and make comment behind closed doors...  how archaic!

The media is already censored in Thailand (heavily) so outlet's such as open discussion forums here give - in most cases - insight and understanding to what is being 'fed' to us by Bangkok Post!  Disagree George.  Nation or not, you are being pressured into submission.  Needless to say - we will all stand behind your decision but many, unwillingly.

I have to sat I echo those feelings as well. However, I am not surprised this has happened considering that TV hopped into bed with The Nation   -which IMO was an ill thought out idea in the first place, and always was likely to have repercussions further down the line.

[Shiver]

MRFortuner, on 2009-10-02 12:28:31, said:

Just another way of saying "Pay money and I will let you publish" .. Its all about the money !!

Lets side track a little bit. does everyone (no only Thais) thinks that expats earns alot of money? if you think so, says "I"

I think I have a rare distinction, that last night I went into a bar I have frequented for a number of years (beer, never 'other services'), and they gave me my tip back.  Flat out refused it.  I guess that's what happens when you're a farang financial leper So once they do finally realise that farang and money aren't necessarily the same, and actually believe you through repetition and action rather than stereotype, things shift a little.  It was quite a moment, tatoos aside

[Insight]

It's probably so BKK Post can push the new full-page add (that appears after a few seconds, takes a fair bit of time to load with no cancel option) to as many people as possible...

(... not realising that the user can still browse to another website instead...)

[baht&sold]

According to The Nation article, a joint declaration forming the club was signed by 13 major online news-content providers including BOTH Bkk Post & The Nation.

FULL list:

The Nation Multimedia Group
Post Publishing
ASTV Manager
Thai Rath Online
Daily News Online
Matichon
Siam Sport
INN Online
Thansettakij Online
Dara Daily Online
Nawnha Online
Siam Rath Online
Thai Post Online

"While the formation of the Online News Producers Club was aimed primarily at protecting the proprietary material of news websites, it may underline the readiness of the print-media industry, which also operates most of the top news websites, to find a firmer commercial foothold in cyberspace"

http://www.nationmul...ss_30113046.php



So, is it JUST The Bangkok Post covered in the 'ban' or ALL 13?

[brahmburgers]

This is an interesting and multi-faceted subject.  I read the 1st page of this thread, but didn't get to the subsequent 2 pages.  Currently over 2,000 readers!

There are various ways for  news and pap to get to  pages of newspapers.  Bkk Post itself, takes news from other sources, some of it paid for, some not.  Bkk Post also has reporters, who pick up stories, some scooped (first public mention), but most likely most are picked up from police and/or gov't announcements, etc.

There's also syndication, such as political cartoons from elsewhere, and Op-Ed columns (usually opinion pieces), and entertainment.  

Although I'm new to the concept of "RSS Feed" (though did read about it recently on Wikipedia), I'd venture  there are a variety of ways such feeds can be garnered, some by subscription, etc, and some for free.  A 'press release' also fits with RSS protocol, though there are other ways a press release can get to print and/or get viewed online.

Perhaps Bkk Post's mention (of not using its content) can be a catalyst for T.Visa to expand its scope.  At the least, subscribe to RSS feeds that are free.  This may also encourage independents to garner news items and make them available, though hardly anyone wants to work for free, and we (the reading public) shouldn't expect to get everything for free.

For that reason, perhaps T.Visa could open a section on its web site which includes a modest fee, let's say Bt.150/month per customer (that's 5 baht  per day!).  The section would be mostly news items, most of which come via paid-for services such as RSS feeds, and perhaps one or two 'roving reporters.'    To make it more interesting, the subscription site could have political cartoons & interesting columns garnered thru subscription syndicates such as Copley News Service.

[elcent]

err, don't tell your friends or neighbors what you read in the newspapers, you are going to be in trouble either way, - by the news provider's fairytales and attempts to manipulate society and by the gestapo of the same of claiming all information, invention, everything that was ever said, written or made belongs to them.

Fellas, they have plenty of proof that any phrases, wordings and whatsoever were used by them long before the beginning of time.

Just amused here.

[pedro01]

george, on 2009-10-02 10:52:50, said:

Bangkok Post's web traffic is in sharp decline according to Google Trends.

That sure sounds like sour grapes to me. Why include that in your 'article' ?

[monkfish]

Its also not in The Nation Newspapers interest to promote traffic to Bangkok post Newspaper website from their own forum.
I would think links to Stories on BKP would be no problem.
To tell you the truth I was expecting this since the Nation took over.

[Mai Krap]

No worries, I doubt Bangkok Post will even exist in another six months, another shame really. They have went from bad to worse over the last few years, so bad I dont even try to read their website anymore. 7 years ago I could not be bothered to buy the Nation, I was a avid Bangkok Post reader. I would even buy the Post 2 days old when I was living out in the jungle and could not get a paper till the next day , I did not own a computer and never had up till then.

  Back then there was obvious differences in the Nation and Post, Bangkok Post read more like an American paper. There was the Night Owl to read and other tidbits that added to the daily nonsense, later they would add the Database Section which was great for a couple years. Me and many others were greatly offended at how the entire "Killing Off' of the Night Owl went down, it was so disrespectful to the man and the readers. Nobody is claiming they were not correct to put to bed the Night Owl but they could have at least been respectful, pretended he retired, anything but what happened.  Database turned into bunch of nonsense, it seemed to be a bunch of regurgitated second hand stories and week old Tech content that was already irrelevant after 24 hours, yet it was served up there as a weekly. Only in Thailand would someone make a weekly computer section and not realize their targeted audience was tech savvy enough to Google.

  The Nation is not much better but I at least click them if I'm awake after midnight when they post their daily. I do that more out of habit than anything else, as any major story will be covered by AFP or AP within minutes. Even Matt Drudge has become irrelevant by 2009 as anyone can do now what Matt was doing ten years ago.


  Who needs Bangkok Post when you can be your own news editor? Look in the top right hand corner for controls. To make the image smaller I'm only showing one article per subject when in reality it shows 5 or more, I change the editor according to breaking stories.

 Google_News_1.png   121.38K   36 downloads

 Google_News_2.png   528.73K   24 downloads

[clausewitz]

This idea that a website can ban other sites from linking to their pages goes against the whole point of having the internet- it is so obviously silly that I am surprised Thaivisa even considers abiding by it.
Then again TIT.

[Somnambulist]

I go to a coffee shop to read the computer section of the BP every Wednesday.  You'd have to pay me well to read it any other time.

[elcent]

As long as the news content, comments and columns are provided as free without membership or paid subscriptions to protect their content, there is nothing they can do as long as you mention the source without necessarily a link to it.
Anyway a seasoned reader would like to get a link.

As one mentioned above.

Citizen journalism is going to win the race. Lots to filter out though, but at least you're closer to truth.

Edited by elcent, 2009-10-02 13:13:25.

[pontius]

MyphuketLife, on 2009-10-02 11:23:59, said:

I really wonder if this is what they were after?  They more than likely did not want Thaivisa or any website for that matter posting the entire or most of an article... I am sure it would not be an issue posting the headlines,  then linking to the article like so many websites do (dig, slashdot, google,)...

I for one don't blame them,  its not fair that Thaivisa posts the entire or most of the article,  giving most forum visitors no need to go to BKKPOST's website.  So Thaivisa gets all the ad impressions off of the backs of BKK POST's work.

Maybe you should change your policy to only allow headlines.... Then it would be fair to both parties...

Yes indeed, Thaivisa gets the visitors and ad clicks due to content that took 3 seconds to copy / paste. I always wondered why they "got away" with it.

clausewitz, on 2009-10-02 13:01:47, said:

This idea that a website can ban other sites from linking to their pages goes against the whole point of having the internet- it is so obviously silly that I am surprised Thaivisa even considers abiding by it.
Then again TIT.

It's not about linking, it's about re-posting their whole article content, thus "stealing" their visitors, as people no longer need to bother following the link (as already stated above by MyphuketLife).

BKK Post and the others need to pay for their content, so it's pretty normal that they try to protect it in order to collect the hits themselves. You wouldn't like it either if I ate your supper each time you finished preparing it.

[IanForbes]

It has nothing to do with actual legality. If thaivisa does not want anything from Bangkok Post reported here then they have the right to do so. It's their site and they already have a bunch of subjects that are verboten.

Since the beginning of the internet there have been conflicts with news and magazine publishing. Magazines and newspapers were derelict in their duty in adjusting to changing times. They missed the boat in holding old customers and attracting new ones. Instead of leading the way, they let others with new ideas take over and progress ahead. I've had similar discussions many times with my magazine publishers and they just didn't seem to get it. It is a shame really and one that could have been avoided by progressive thinking.

Newspapers and magazines could have been used as loss leaders with a much broader depth of reporting on the internet. For example, a magazine article is usually about 1500 words or less, and can only touch on a few issues, and those without any real depth of information. Newspaper stories are even smaller, and television less still. at least with television you usually get a few video clips. For the price of a magazine subscription a subscriber should be able go to the magazine's internet site and read a far more in depth story complete with photos and video. That is now picked up on private forums and You-tube video clips... and they are usually poorly done.

Think how great it could have been if we could have had an in-depth reporting of the Tsunami of 2004 with personal interviews and video of the affected areas. Same goes with the conflict last winter at the Suvarnaboomcrash airport. It would open a whole new world of reporting.

[KayT]

And so the readership of BP will decline even further.
When you are hurting your biggest marketplace by your restrictions it stands to reason that you will suffer the consequences.
Thailand in general is experiencing this right now as backlash for some of the major incidents that have made international headlines in the last 2-3 years.
I guess BP wanted to experience that sort of thing for itself.
Good work and keep it all up. TIT and nothing surprises me here anymore.

[elcent]

pontius, on 2009-10-02 13:16:37, said:

MyphuketLife, on 2009-10-02 11:23:59, said:

I really wonder if this is what they were after?  They more than likely did not want Thaivisa or any website for that matter posting the entire or most of an article... I am sure it would not be an issue posting the headlines,  then linking to the article like so many websites do (dig, slashdot, google,)...

I for one don't blame them,  its not fair that Thaivisa posts the entire or most of the article,  giving most forum visitors no need to go to BKKPOST's website.  So Thaivisa gets all the ad impressions off of the backs of BKK POST's work.

Maybe you should change your policy to only allow headlines.... Then it would be fair to both parties...

Yes indeed, Thaivisa gets the visitors and ad clicks due to content that took 3 seconds to copy / paste. I always wondered why they "got away" with it.

clausewitz, on 2009-10-02 13:01:47, said:

This idea that a website can ban other sites from linking to their pages goes against the whole point of having the internet- it is so obviously silly that I am surprised Thaivisa even considers abiding by it.
Then again TIT.

It's not about linking, it's about re-posting their whole article content, thus "stealing" their visitors, as people no longer need to bother following the link (as already stated above by MyphuketLife).

BKK Post and the others need to pay for their content, so it's pretty normal that they try to protect it in order to collect the hits themselves. You wouldn't like it either if I ate your supper each time you finished preparing it.

not quite right. It's all about quality, freedom of expression ...
For example when someone posts a column which is good(although very very rare) people would search it and do a kind of research and thus bringing more traffic to their site.
As it is for now, there will be fewer traffic coming to BP.

follow the stats and you will see ...

[clausewitz]

pontius, on 2009-10-02 13:16:37, said:

It's not about linking, it's about re-posting their whole article content, thus "stealing" their visitors, as people no longer need to bother following the link (as already stated above by MyphuketLife).

BKK Post and the others need to pay for their content, so it's pretty normal that they try to protect it in order to collect the hits themselves. You wouldn't like it either if I ate your supper each time you finished preparing it.

Sio what is different from before? Thiavisa policy has alwasy been that we never could never quote whole articles from Bangkok post, only a few sentences and a link.

[dude007]

desi, on 2009-10-02 11:10:09, said:

george, on 2009-10-02 10:52:50, said:

Bangkok Post bans Thaivisa from using its content

BANGKOK (thaivisa.com): -- The Publisher of Bangkok Post, Post Publishing PCL, has informed Thaivisa.com that they have joined the "Society for Online News Providers, (SONP)", and their policy is apparently that RSS feeds are the only way for other web sites to republish news articles.

Posting the whole article or too much of an article should be banned, but a quote? This makes no sense and goes against what is a given on the Internet.

I RATHER SEE THE OPPOSITE!  A quote can be drawn from its context and sound very different than in the article itself.  See how they often manipulate interviews by only quoting what they want ot hear...  There is something wrong here with the BKK post.  Some powers are not happy with Thaivisa and that's aonly a beginnig I am afraid.   

[alstaxi]

Insight, on 2009-10-01 21:41:49, said:

It's probably so BKK Post can push the new full-page add (that appears after a few seconds, takes a fair bit of time to load with no cancel option) to as many people as possible...

(... not realising that the user can still browse to another website instead...)

Not at all, when you subscribe to an RSS feed, you automatically download only the articles from the feed you subscribe to, it works very well. BKK Post has not banned anyone from their articles, they have simply changed the way they distibute their stories, unless there is tmore to she story we have not been told.

[alstaxi]

desi, on 2009-10-01 21:25:10, said:

alstaxi, on 2009-10-02 12:13:24, said:

desi, on 2009-10-01 21:02:03, said:

To me, it is clear (and fair) that the Bangkok Post is demanding that TV stop posting entire articles.

What is not clear to me is who is demanding that TV members stop merely quoting from the Bangkok Post articles.

Is it TV? Or is it the Bangkok Post?

Read the article, the BP is not stopping TV from using stories, provided they are posted vis RSS, TV can publish the entire paper.So get RSS technology, and use it, every body else is.

I did read the article and it does not sound right (and goes against the logics of fair use AND practicalities).

The Bangkok Post are worried about a loss of revenue due to less people coming to their site. So banning TV (a site with a huge membership) from quoting, with a link to the article on the Bangkok Post, makes no sense at all.

So I can only think that the Bangkok post sent out their request without taking care with their wording. Or, that TV is saying 'sod them' and the print they rode in on.

If you read the article you will know that BP has not banned TV from anything, they simpl ywant TV and others to republish aticles via RSS, an internet technology that allows you to subscibe to a news feed and automatically download what ever you want from that site, no ban on any thing.

[desi]

dude007, on 2009-10-02 13:25:52, said:

desi, on 2009-10-02 11:10:09, said:

george, on 2009-10-02 10:52:50, said:

Bangkok Post bans Thaivisa from using its content

BANGKOK (thaivisa.com): -- The Publisher of Bangkok Post, Post Publishing PCL, has informed Thaivisa.com that they have joined the "Society for Online News Providers, (SONP)", and their policy is apparently that RSS feeds are the only way for other web sites to republish news articles.

Posting the whole article or too much of an article should be banned, but a quote? This makes no sense and goes against what is a given on the Internet.

I RATHER SEE THE OPPOSITE!  A quote can be drawn from its context and sound very different than in the article itself.  See how they often manipulate interviews by only quoting what they want ot hear...  There is something wrong here with the BKK post.  Some powers are not happy with Thaivisa and that's aonly a beginnig I am afraid.   

Why? All you have to do is read the original yourself to see if you agree with either point of view.

Who believes everything they read online anyway? If I am interested, after I read an article I google for more to make up my own mind.

The facts are that the Bangkok Post is a business. The Bangkok Post pays for writers for articles in order to turn around and sell stories. For their site, they do that by selling ads. If TV is ripping off entire articles and taking the Bangkok Post out of the equation (especially if TV continuously comes top on google for those very same articles), then the Bangkok Post has the right to stop TV from doing so. But I do not believe that the Bangkok Post has a legal right to stop TV from posting quotes.

[desi]

alstaxi, on 2009-10-02 13:33:46, said:

If you read the article you will know that BP has not banned TV from anything, they simpl ywant TV and others to republish aticles via RSS, an internet technology that allows you to subscibe to a news feed and automatically download what ever you want from that site, no ban on any thing.

You do not understand my query... I am not asking about RSS (and yes, I know exactly what RSS is as I use it all the time).

I am asking about the new TV rules against quoting the Bangkok Post.

Quote

For legal reasons, and to protect the website and its members, Thaivisa.com must comply with this new policy and urge all members to avoid all Bangkok Post content, advising its members to find alternative content instead.

Members quoting or posting Bangkok Post content will be warned by our moderating team, and the post will be deleted without warning.

I would highlight 'quoting' in my quote but I believe there is a TV rule against it (difficult to keep up with them all).

[bbw]

you can post their headlines and link to their site for the full story. that's much fairer anyway since why shouldn't you direct traffic to them if posters are taking their stories? then people can comment on them, too, within the forum.

having had my own stories reposted here without permission (or attribution, or a link to my company's website) i think thaivisa could have done something earlier about this instead of making it into the typical false conflict.