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[Jingthing]

I realize this forum is mostly for Buddhists, but please entertain this sincere question from an atheist who thinks the science behind global climate change nightmare scenarios is probably true. It is my simplistic understanding that Buddhists believe in reincarnation of humans to other humans or animals. In the event of human extinction, how does this belief system account for that, if there are no humans left to reincarnate into?

Edited by Jingthing, 2009-10-25 12:12:20.

[camerata]

In Theravada Buddhism it's rebirth, rather than reincarnation of some kind of soul. And it's not confined to humans and animals. You can be reborn into six principal realms, some of which are not material realms. As far as I recall, even the end of a "world system" will be followed by the birth of a new one and eventually more humans. In the meantime, celestial experience is possible.

[fabianfred]

Even if the 2012 thing comes true and there are global cataclysms, some of the earths population will survive. There are five Buddhas in this aeon and the next and last one will not come for several million years.
Before that the human population will reach its low point in the continual natural cycle and change, where the natural lifespan will be reduced to ten years. In that time girls of five will be sexually mature and boys at 6 or 7, but morals will have been lost completely from society and killing will be rampant. After a haitus of killing the population will have been hugely reduced and start to live morally again. The cycle then continues and lifespan increases again as people live in harmony with nature. After reaching the highpoint of the cycle when lifespan is 100,000 years it again starts to reduce and when it reaches 85,000 years the next Buddha will take human rebirth.
Between Aeons when there is no habitable earth all beings exist in the highest realms which are without form, until the new planet and universe have been formed.
Aeons are the time from one BigBang to the next and since Buddhism sees the past and future as infinite, there have been an infinite number of bigbangs and universes.

[rockyysdt]

fabianfred, on 2009-10-26 05:37:29, said:

Even if the 2012 thing comes true and there are global cataclysms, some of the earths population will survive. There are five Buddhas in this aeon and the next and last one will not come for several million years.

In years how far into this aeon have we moved?

Will the dhamma be lost in this aeon until the final Buddha reintroduce it?

fabianfred, on 2009-10-26 05:37:29, said:

Before that the human population will reach its low point in the continual natural cycle and change, where the natural lifespan will be reduced to ten years. In that time girls of five will be sexually mature and boys at 6 or 7, but morals will have been lost completely from society and killing will be rampant. After a haitus of killing the population will have been hugely reduced and start to live morally again. The cycle then continues and lifespan increases again as people live in harmony with nature. After reaching the highpoint of the cycle when lifespan is 100,000 years it again starts to reduce and when it reaches 85,000 years the next Buddha will take human rebirth.

Would this be a good time to introduce dhamma?

fabianfred, on 2009-10-26 05:37:29, said:

Between Aeons when there is no habitable earth all beings exist in the highest realms which are without form, until the new planet and universe have been formed.
Aeons are the time from one BigBang to the next and since Buddhism sees the past and future as infinite, there have been an infinite number of bigbangs and universes.

Until enlightenment occurs Is it better to live in the highest realm or in our realm?

[Jingthing]

This belief that humans are immune from extinction must surely be a matter of faith, not science. Am I correct in my assumption that the people on earth most concerned about the future of our species and planet may well be secular humanist/agnostic/atheists/non-religious people like me? If this is all there is, then it matters even more. I don't mean to be confrontational to Buddhists, I was just not aware before about some of the Buddhist ideas about these kinds of issues.

Edited by Jingthing, 2009-10-26 16:46:58.

[fabianfred]

rockyysdt, on 2009-10-26 12:21:14, said:

fabianfred, on 2009-10-26 05:37:29, said:

Even if the 2012 thing comes true and there are global cataclysms, some of the earths population will survive. There are five Buddhas in this aeon and the next and last one will not come for several million years.

In years how far into this aeon have we moved?

Will the dhamma be lost in this aeon until the final Buddha reintroduce it?

fabianfred, on 2009-10-26 05:37:29, said:

Before that the human population will reach its low point in the continual natural cycle and change, where the natural lifespan will be reduced to ten years. In that time girls of five will be sexually mature and boys at 6 or 7, but morals will have been lost completely from society and killing will be rampant. After a haitus of killing the population will have been hugely reduced and start to live morally again. The cycle then continues and lifespan increases again as people live in harmony with nature. After reaching the highpoint of the cycle when lifespan is 100,000 years it again starts to reduce and when it reaches 85,000 years the next Buddha will take human rebirth.

Would this be a good time to introduce dhamma?

fabianfred, on 2009-10-26 05:37:29, said:

Between Aeons when there is no habitable earth all beings exist in the highest realms which are without form, until the new planet and universe have been formed.
Aeons are the time from one BigBang to the next and since Buddhism sees the past and future as infinite, there have been an infinite number of bigbangs and universes.

Until enlightenment occurs Is it better to live in the highest realm or in our realm?

The dhamma of the present buddha will last for five thousand years after his death...then lost for a very long time...until the next Buddha comes and rediscovers it.
A Buddha will only come when the age of humans is declining...and between the limits of 100 years and 100,000 years.
The human realm is the best to be in for a chance to hear the dhamma and meet a Buddha and his teachings, and because we know both pleasure and suffering we can do more merituous actions.
The present Buddha, Gotama, is the fourth buddha in this aeon. The most Buddhas in an aeon is five, but many millions go by without a single buddha.

Edited by fabianfred, 2009-10-26 17:46:29.

[camerata]

Jingthing, on 2009-10-26 16:46:27, said:

This belief that humans are immune from extinction must surely be a matter of faith, not science. Am I correct in my assumption that the people on earth most concerned about the future of our species and planet may well be secular humanist/agnostic/atheists/non-religious people like me?

No, because a Buddhist can't become enlightened and attain nirvana except in the human realm. Since the average Buddhist has to return to the human realm a gazillion times, he has a great interest in making sure there is a realm to come back to. I guess the same would be true for Hindus. I don't really see why a non-religious person - believing there is nothing after death and no coming back - would care about the planet or the species any more than a religious person.

There is actually no belief that humans are "immune from extinction." When all attain nirvana, that will be the end of the species. The belief is only that they can survive the end of one "world system" until another appears. But this is something that scientists interested in String Theory have also postulated.

[fabianfred]

I believe that the scientific theory which supports the Buddhist and Vedic view on the infinite cycles of the universe is called the 'oscillating universe' http://en.wikipedia....latory_universe

Nirvana is possible from some of the higher realms...but only after learning about the dhamma and practising it in the human realm first. A Sotapanna, once-returner, non-returner can progress to Arahant whilst in the higher realms.

When a real Buddha is alive he teaches those from the higher realms too and they get the chance to attain liberation..... but to be able to listen to the words of a Buddha one must have acquired much merit previously...a rare and precious opportunity.

The Buddha would search for a suitable person to teach the dhamma to iin the mornings, one who was ready for his teaching and who would make progress as a result. In the evenings he taught his monks, and at one minute past midnight received beings from the higher realms who came respectfully and listened to his teachings. He slept two hours a day from 2 am to 4 am.

Since the number of beings is huge it will be a very very long time before they are all able to attain Nirvana.

[rockyysdt]

fabianfred, on 2009-10-27 04:56:54, said:

Nirvana is possible from some of the higher realms...but only after learning about the dhamma and practising it in the human realm first. A Sotapanna, once-returner, non-returner can progress to Arahant whilst in the higher realms.

Could heaven, hel_l & purgatory be some of these higher realms?

[fabianfred]

Higher realms refer to the Devas .....the animal hel_l and hungry ghost realms being the lower or realms of suffering....
Some Buddhists refer to hells as purgatory to soften the pill...
The heavens popular in other religions are what Buddhists refer to as the deva realms....the realms of sensual pleasures....where lives are extremely long and without suffering....... but because they are still in Samsara eventually come to an end. The five senses are indulged although beings are born into these realms as adults.
The lowest heaven realm's single day and night are equivalent to 50 human years and the lifespan is 500 celestial years.

[rockyysdt]

fabianfred, on 2009-10-27 16:33:16, said:

Higher realms refer to the Devas .....the animal hel_l and hungry ghost realms being the lower or realms of suffering....
Some Buddhists refer to hells as purgatory to soften the pill...
The heavens popular in other religions are what Buddhists refer to as the deva realms....the realms of sensual pleasures....where lives are extremely long and without suffering....... but because they are still in Samsara eventually come to an end. The five senses are indulged although beings are born into these realms as adults.
The lowest heaven realm's single day and night are equivalent to 50 human years and the lifespan is 500 celestial years.

Were realms, aeons, number of Buddhas per aeon, & varying lifespans detailed or documented by the Buddha?

What is a celestial year?

Edited by rockyysdt, 2009-10-27 16:52:00.

[phetaroi]

One of the things I find interesting about this thread is that it shows how much most of the posters are relying on faith.
Very little of what is said here is not philosophical or can be proven by fact or even logic.

Don't get me wrong. Nothing wrong with accepting something by faith. Just not what most people "say" Buddhism is all about.

[Brucenkhamen]

phetaroi, on 2009-10-28 02:08:51, said:

One of the things I find interesting about this thread is that it shows how much most of the posters are relying on faith.
Very little of what is said here is not philosophical or can be proven by fact or even logic.

Don't get me wrong. Nothing wrong with accepting something by faith. Just not what most people "say" Buddhism is all about.

Yes I'd agree, not really what I think Buddhism is about but some people get into it, if you don't find it useful just put it to one side and concentrate on what you find to be relevant and useful.

[camerata]

phetaroi, on 2009-10-28 08:08:51, said:

Very little of what is said here is not philosophical or can be proven by fact or even logic.

Oddly enough there are similar arguments among scientists about String Theory, with some claiming the equations show it may be the long sought-after Theory of Everything and others saying it is metaphysics rather than science because it can never be verified by experiment. It would be difficult to recreate the Big Bang in a lab, for example.

[fabianfred]

http://en.wikipedia....dhist_cosmology

[honu]

As with the Buddhist cosmology rebirth isn't something I personally put any stock in, but so far the discussion has missed a couple interesting points about it. Supposedly one "soul" (which really isn't that, more a collection of causes, which really also isn't that because the scheme is quite complicated) can come back as two people. Or maybe that's only according to some systems, I make no attempt to read up on such matters, I've only heard of it in relation to past important figures being certified in the present as more than one person, which isn't regarded as a contradiction. And people aren't confined to just coming back here or heavenly realms, they could switch between species (Thais have a lot of stories about the lives the Buddha lived as animals, which could just be parables but where do you draw that line).

Related to my own impression of what Buddhism is, I definitely put all of this to the side.

[rockyysdt]

honu, on 2009-10-29 11:39:17, said:

Supposedly one "soul" (which really isn't that, more a collection of causes, which really also isn't that because the scheme is quite complicated) can come back as two people. Or maybe that's only according to some systems, I make no attempt to read up on such matters, I've only heard of it in relation to past important figures being certified in the present as more than one person, which isn't regarded as a contradiction.

If this scenario is true then a possible outcome is that you could live an exemplary life accumulating merit only to have this undone by the behaviour of your second.

[camerata]

A being re-incarnated as more than one entity is a belief of Tibetan Buddhism. See Bertolucci's movie, Little Buddha.

[fabianfred]

camerata, on 2009-10-29 16:59:20, said:

A being re-incarnated as more than one entity is a belief of Tibetan Buddhism. See Bertolucci's movie, Little Buddha.

I think that the Tibetans would class a high lama who is capable of directing his rebirth stream to be already enlightened, as what they call a Boddhisatva....in which case he would be beyond karma. As with our Arahants who have done everything they need to do and can only produce neutral karma.

Of course, by the Theravada understanding, a Boddhisattva is a Buddha in training and is hence blocked from advancement from Puutuuchon to Ariyachon.... so would still be able to produce karma and suffer for it in the lower realms.

[honu]

rockyysdt, on 2009-10-29 13:03:48, said:

honu, on 2009-10-29 11:39:17, said:

Supposedly one "soul" (which really isn't that, more a collection of causes, which really also isn't that because the scheme is quite complicated) can come back as two people. Or maybe that's only according to some systems, I make no attempt to read up on such matters, I've only heard of it in relation to past important figures being certified in the present as more than one person, which isn't regarded as a contradiction.

If this scenario is true then a possible outcome is that you could live an exemplary life accumulating merit only to have this undone by the behaviour of your second.

What's being missed here is the idea that there is no real independent self, so you wouldn't be linked to the other person at all (like in the movie "The One"; it wouldn't be like that). "You" are just a causal stream and some inter-dependent elements (typically understood incorrectly as distinct and relatively permanent), the idea is the stream could split.

Personally I don't see the point in being too concerned with reincarnation (call it "rebirth" if you like, doesn't seem to change much)--that might happen or it might not. Buddhism should make sense based on a one-life agnostic worldview. "Suffering" (in some sense) should be reduced in this very life, and that would constitute progress according to more than one supernatural scheme (morality is fairly common across different systems), even if some conservative Christians would still land you in a burning sulphur pit for a lack of right-understanding.