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[rockyysdt]

I've read a number of times & understand that the Buddha continued to suffer up until his death, as a result of previously accumulated negative khamma, even after he became enlightened.

As we know enlightenment leads to the extinguishment of re birth.

My question is, at the point of enlightenment must the accumulated negative khamma be depleted enough to be used up within a persons remaining life?

Or can such a person die with unexpended negative khamma?

Also, once enlightened, would expending negative khamma no longer cause suffering due to the persons realised state?

Edited by rockyysdt, 2009-10-28 18:17:03.

[DJPogo98]

rockyysdt, on 2009-10-28 18:15:32, said:

I've read a number of times & understand that the Buddha continued to suffer up until his death, as a result of previously accumulated negative khamma, even after he became enlightened.
As we know enlightenment leads to the extinguishment of re birth.
My question is, at the point of enlightenment must the accumulated negative khamma be depleted enough to be used up within a persons remaining life?
Or can such a person die with unexpended negative khamma?
Also, once enlightened, would expending negative khamma no longer cause suffering due to the persons realised state?

Since I am not an arahat, I cannot comment authoritatively. But my small understanding is that if you have kamma, you will be reborn. Thus the goal is to accept the results of your previous kamma, and not generate any new kamma. When all accounts are settled, you will become a never returner. Of course, you will never become arahat to begin with if you do not have a sufficiently rich store of merit. According to the suttas, Buddha worked for something like 100,000 lifetimes (more I think) to create good kamma and exhaust the store of old kamma. He must have been running on kamma fumes in this, his last lifetime.

OH, btw, a tibetan lama told me that Buddha had no negative kamma, he simply manifested illness in order to teach his students that all beings were subject to birth, death, disease and old age.

Edited by DJPogo98, 2009-10-28 22:33:32.

[Brucenkhamen]

rockyysdt, on 2009-10-28 12:15:32, said:

I've read a number of times & understand that the Buddha continued to suffer up until his death, as a result of previously accumulated negative khamma, even after he became enlightened.

As we know enlightenment leads to the extinguishment of re birth.

My question is, at the point of enlightenment must the accumulated negative khamma be depleted enough to be used up within a persons remaining life?

Or can such a person die with unexpended negative khamma?

Actually incorrect if you are using the term suffering as a translation of dukkha.

Yes he had unpleasant or negative experiences but no he didn't suffer because of them, he didn't react to them negatively. The term suffering/dukkha has to do with ones reaction to the experience, not the experience itself.

As to your question it's a bit of an angels on a pinhead type question, things pan out as they pan out, the important thing is one has ceased suffering as a reaction to negative experiences.

rockyysdt, on 2009-10-28 12:15:32, said:

Also, once enlightened, would expending negative khamma no longer cause suffering due to the persons realised state?

Yes this is more like it.

[fabianfred]

Once one attains to Arahant and thence the state of Nirvana you can still experience the fruits of old karma, but any new karma you produce will only be of the neutral kind, without effect. When you die from this, your final rebirth in Samsara and the 31 realms, any remaining karma is wiped out, because it has no more opportunity to have an effect.
A Buddha is also referred to as an arahant. and because they pass from Samsara and are not reborn, instead of saying that they die, we use the term parinibbana.

[DJPogo98]

Quote

Actually incorrect if you are using the term suffering as a translation of dukkha.

Yes he had unpleasant or negative experiences but no he didn't suffer because of them, he didn't react to them negatively. The term suffering/dukkha has to do with ones reaction to the experience, not the experience itself.

As to your question it's a bit of an angels on a pinhead type question, things pan out as they pan out, the important thing is one has ceased suffering as a reaction to negative experiences.

Excellent point. The whole point of the noble eightfold path is the end of suffering through realization.

[rockyysdt]

fabianfred, on 2009-10-29 05:32:06, said:

Once one attains to Arahant and thence the state of Nirvana you can still experience the fruits of old karma, but any new karma you produce will only be of the neutral kind, without effect. When you die from this, your final rebirth in Samsara and the 31 realms, any remaining karma is wiped out, because it has no more opportunity to have an effect.
A Buddha is also referred to as an arahant. and because they pass from Samsara and are not reborn, instead of saying that they die, we use the term parinibbana.

Can one achieve enlightenment, even though one may carry a large store of negative khamma which as yet hasn't born fruit?

I understand the Buddha assisted an assassin/multi murderer to become Arahant within a life span in which the killings took place.

Apart from torturous killings involving much suffering I can't think of a bigger accumulator of negative khamma than to take kill another human.

[fabianfred]

rockyysdt, on 2009-10-29 13:16:55, said:

fabianfred, on 2009-10-29 05:32:06, said:

Once one attains to Arahant and thence the state of Nirvana you can still experience the fruits of old karma, but any new karma you produce will only be of the neutral kind, without effect. When you die from this, your final rebirth in Samsara and the 31 realms, any remaining karma is wiped out, because it has no more opportunity to have an effect.
A Buddha is also referred to as an arahant. and because they pass from Samsara and are not reborn, instead of saying that they die, we use the term parinibbana.

Can one achieve enlightenment, even though one may carry a large store of negative khamma which as yet hasn't born fruit?

I understand the Buddha assisted an assassin/multi murderer to become Arahant within a life span in which the killings took place.

Apart from torturous killings involving much suffering I can't think of a bigger accumulator of negative khamma than to take kill another human.

Yes.

...and if we achieve stream-entry, a much more achievable goal in this lifetime, we are blocked from rebirth in the lower realms and have a maximum of seven lives before attaining Arahant....not much chance to pay off all the remaining karma waiting in the wings for its chance to bear fruit.

[rockyysdt]

fabianfred, on 2009-10-30 06:29:22, said:

Yes.

...and if we achieve stream-entry, a much more achievable goal in this lifetime, we are blocked from rebirth in the lower realms and have a maximum of seven lives before attaining Arahant....not much chance to pay off all the remaining karma waiting in the wings for its chance to bear fruit.

How do you achieve stream-entry?

Doesn't the act of killing humans way so heavily that your position falls away substantially?

[fabianfred]

Angulimala was acting upon the instructions of his teacher...although a serial killer....and had the benefit of being taught by the Buddha in person. Many listeners to the Buddha teaching attained to Stream-entry whilst doing so, and many monks attained to Arahant also.

To attain stream-entry we must conquer the first three fetters.... http://sped2work.tri...om/fetters.html

Put basically...we must have unshakeable faith in the Buddha, Dhamma & Sangha; reduce our ego as much as possible; keep the precepts as well as we possibly can; and to be sure we should practise vipassana meditation too.

In this way it is possible to attain stream-entry in theis very lifetime and thence be safe from rebirth in the lower realms. We can still suffer the fruit of past karma during the remaining maximum of seven lives before attaining arahant, but only in the human realm or higher realms, after which we will have escaped it.

We can have reached Stream-entry or even Sakdagami without realising it.

[rockyysdt]

fabianfred, on 2009-10-30 16:47:58, said:

Angulimala was acting upon the instructions of his teacher...although a serial killer....and had the benefit of being taught by the Buddha in person. Many listeners to the Buddha teaching attained to Stream-entry whilst doing so, and many monks attained to Arahant also.

To attain stream-entry we must conquer the first three fetters.... http://sped2work.tri...om/fetters.html

Put basically...we must have unshakeable faith in the Buddha, Dhamma & Sangha; reduce our ego as much as possible; keep the precepts as well as we possibly can; and to be sure we should practise vipassana meditation too.

In this way it is possible to attain stream-entry in this very lifetime and thence be safe from rebirth in the lower realms. We can still suffer the fruit of past karma during the remaining maximum of seven lives before attaining arahant, but only in the human realm or higher realms, after which we will have escaped it.

We can have reached Stream-entry or even Sakdagami without realising it.

It sounds like a life of strict dedication, perhaps as a monk in order to find the time.

When you say "keep the precepts as well as possible" do you mean the 5, 8, 10, or 227 precepts?

As I'm motivated by self interest with the promise of enlightenment within seven lifetimes via stream entry, isn't this very act contrary to attachment to ego?

[fabianfred]

5 precepts
Desire for the release from suffering of Nirvana is considered to be wholesome desire.
Quite attainable as a layman, although the monk's life is suited to a more rapid advancement and relief from distractions.

[fabianfred]

Keeping the five precepts ...as well as we can.... determined to do our best....is the foundation for higher practise. We could not hope to progress in meditation if we were not bothering to try and keep the precepts. This doesn't mean that unless we keep the precepts perfectly, without loss, that we are unable to progress. Even one who has attained stream-entry can still break the precepts ...but only in a minor way and not sufficient to be reborn in the lower realms.

[rockyysdt]

fabianfred, on 2009-10-31 05:09:16, said:

Keeping the five precepts ...as well as we can.... determined to do our best....is the foundation for higher practise. We could not hope to progress in meditation if we were not bothering to try and keep the precepts. This doesn't mean that unless we keep the precepts perfectly, without loss, that we are unable to progress. Even one who has attained stream-entry can still break the precepts ...but only in a minor way and not sufficient to be reborn in the lower realms.

I suspect that over time practicing regular sitting meditation will cause us to naturally begin to live according to the precepts rather than consciously forcing observance.

The difference between observing 5 & 8 precepts is a big step.

It means abstaining from all sexual activity rather than sexual misconduct, abstaining from eating at the wrong time (the right time is eating once, after sunrise, before noon, abstaining from singing, dancing, playing music, attending entertainment performances, wearing perfume, and using cosmetics and garlands, & abstaining from luxurious places for sitting or sleeping.

Edited by rockyysdt, 2009-10-31 11:36:58.

[fabianfred]

That is why the thais say that keeping the 8 precepts for a single day and night earns more merit than donating to build a dozen temples.

[bankei]

There are 10 events which happened to the Buddha which could be described as suffering. Some, from memory
1. The Buddha suffered abdominal pains
2. Devadatta tried to assassinate the Buddha by pushing a boulder off a cliff. It missed, but the Buddha's foot was hit and bled.
3. The Buddha was slandered by a rival sect saying he had made a woman pregnant.
etc

All these are explained away in later works such as the Milandapanha and commentaries. In the Milandapanha the monk Nagasena is ask various sticly questions by King Milinda and he replies by saying not everything that happens is due to the effects of kamma. I can't remember the details but some things are said to arise to physical causes like a rock falling, some illness are due to physical causes too - presence of wind in food etc.

There is an interesting academic article about this by Jonathan Walters with a title something like "the Buddha's Bad Kamma".

[rockyysdt]

DJPogo98, on 2009-10-28 23:31:25, said:

Since I am not an arahat, I cannot comment authoritatively. But my small understanding is that if you have kamma, you will be reborn.

Does that mean the man who perpetrated several murders & threatened the Buddha himself would have given rise to rebirth due to his murders even though with the Buddhas help he achieved enlightenment?

Doesn't re birth extinguish when one becomes enlightened.

How did this man become enlightened when he killed several (possibly the highest on the negative khamma list) in his last life?

What could someone do in their last life to absolve themselves of several murders?

Edited by rockyysdt, 2009-11-02 14:05:15.

[fabianfred]

Reaching Arahant you stop producing any more karma except the neutral kind. You can still suffer the fruit of old karma but when you leave rebirth in Samsara at parinibbana you have escaped the remaining karma...it is unable to bear fruit because you are no longer reborn in any of the 32 realms.
Only if you have committed the five most heinous types of karma are you blocked from attaining nirvana for a whole aeon.
Patricide
matricide
Killing an Arahant
Injuring a Buddha to cause blood to flow. (it is not possible to kill a Buddha)
Causing the Sangha to argue and split into factions.

Edited by fabianfred, 2009-11-02 15:01:14.

[rockyysdt]

fabianfred, on 2009-11-02 16:00:34, said:

You can still suffer the fruit of old karma but when you leave rebirth in Samsara at parinibbana you have escaped the remaining karma...it is unable to bear fruit because you are no longer reborn in any of the 32 realms.
Only if you have committed the five most heinous types of karma are you blocked from attaining nirvana for a whole aeon.
Patricide
matricide
Killing an Arahant
Injuring a Buddha to cause blood to flow. (it is not possible to kill a Buddha)
Causing the Sangha to argue and split into factions.

Does enlightenment automatically lead to Nirvana upon death or can you be enlightened & then be blocked from Nirvana for an aeon?

Is homicide of non important people not heinous and/or low in terms of negative khamma and/or entitlements?

[rockyysdt]

fabianfred, on 2009-11-02 16:00:34, said:

it is not possible to kill a Buddha.

Is this once a Buddha has become enlightened, or is it also impossible to kill a Buddha during his non enlightened period of last life?

[fabianfred]

rockyysdt, on 2009-11-02 15:17:38, said:

Does enlightenment automatically lead to Nirvana upon death or can you be enlightened & then be blocked from Nirvana for an aeon?

Is homicide of non important people not heinous and/or low in terms of negative khamma and/or entitlements?

Once enlightened.....reaching the state of arahant....you could not break any of the five precepts...therefore not commit any act which would cause rebirth in the lower realms.

Those five heinous crimes...besides being blocked from nirvana for an aeon...one would also be reborn in Avichi hel_l...the lowest.... for an aeon too.

Suppose... we considered people of different spiritual progress to have different value...when it comes to karma. It might work like this...
A bad man coming into our home to rape and murder ..... killing him.... 1 point
an ordinary person ..neither good or bad...... 100 points
a good person... 1000 points
a person who has met the dhamma and starting to try to be good....1,000,000 points
a person whose goal is nirvana and who practises Vipassana striving for enlightenment... 1 billion points
a person who is an ariya...sotapanna to anagami..... countless billions


some people like to say that all men are born equal...but of course this neglects past karma.

Buddha said there are four types of person.....
One coming from the light who goes to the light... comes from the light and goes to the dark......comes from the dark and goes to the light....and comes from the dark and goes to the dark.


As a Boddhisatva.... a buddha in training..he can be killed...although such an act would incur a strong penalty. Once he has decided to take final rebirth in the human realm in order to become the Buddha... he cannot be destroyed.

[rockyysdt]

fabianfred, on 2009-11-03 06:29:28, said:

Once enlightened.....reaching the state of arahant....you could not break any of the five precepts.

Can you become enlightened even with a large store of unexpended bad khamma?

fabianfred, on 2009-11-03 06:29:28, said:

Those five heinous crimes...besides being blocked from nirvana for an aeon...one would also be reborn in Avichi hel_l...the lowest.... for an aeon too.

Suppose... we considered people of different spiritual progress to have different value...when it comes to karma. It might work like this...
A bad man coming into our home to rape and murder ..... killing him.... 1 point
an ordinary person ..neither good or bad...... 100 points
a good person... 1000 points
a person who has met the dhamma and starting to try to be good....1,000,000 points
a person whose goal is nirvana and who practises Vipassana striving for enlightenment... 1 billion points
a person who is an ariya...sotapanna to anagami..... countless billions

Did the Buddha teach all of this?

fabianfred, on 2009-11-03 06:29:28, said:

some people like to say that all men are born equal...but of course this neglects past karma.

Buddha said there are four types of person.....
One coming from the light who goes to the light... comes from the light and goes to the dark......comes from the dark and goes to the light....and comes from the dark and goes to the dark.

What causes a person to "come from the light and go to the dark" if coming from the light means having been good & stored good khamma?

fabianfred, on 2009-11-03 06:29:28, said:

As a Boddhisatva.... a buddha in training..he can be killed...although such an act would incur a strong penalty. Once he has decided to take final rebirth in the human realm in order to become the Buddha... he cannot be destroyed.

Does a Boddhisatva, due to his awareness, easily transfer to the next step of Buddhahood?

[Brucenkhamen]

rockyysdt, on 2009-11-03 00:35:59, said:

fabianfred, on 2009-11-03 06:29:28, said:

Those five heinous crimes...besides being blocked from nirvana for an aeon...one would also be reborn in Avichi hel_l...the lowest.... for an aeon too.

Suppose... we considered people of different spiritual progress to have different value...when it comes to karma. It might work like this...
A bad man coming into our home to rape and murder ..... killing him.... 1 point
an ordinary person ..neither good or bad...... 100 points
a good person... 1000 points
a person who has met the dhamma and starting to try to be good....1,000,000 points
a person whose goal is nirvana and who practises Vipassana striving for enlightenment... 1 billion points
a person who is an ariya...sotapanna to anagami..... countless billions

Did the Buddha teach all of this?

No, and it's missing the point in my opinion. Buddhism isn't a frequent flyer program.

The point on the teaching of kamma is not so we can waste our time speculating on who's got the most points and how, it's not so we can waste our time speculating how we got to experience what we are experiencing today and whether or not it's fair.

In my opinion the point is so that you can examine your choices before you act on them, realising that nothing happens in a vacuum and there will be consequences, through doing so you learn to act with more wisdom.

The word kamma means "action", we should focus at the action end of the process not at the result end of the of the process. You can't change the past but you can change the future.

Edited by Brucenkhamen, 2009-11-03 08:41:12.

[rockyysdt]

Brucenkhamen, on 2009-11-03 09:38:34, said:

rockyysdt, on 2009-11-03 00:35:59, said:

fabianfred, on 2009-11-03 06:29:28, said:

Those five heinous crimes...besides being blocked from nirvana for an aeon...one would also be reborn in Avichi hel_l...the lowest.... for an aeon too.

Suppose... we considered people of different spiritual progress to have different value...when it comes to karma. It might work like this...
A bad man coming into our home to rape and murder ..... killing him.... 1 point
an ordinary person ..neither good or bad...... 100 points
a good person... 1000 points
a person who has met the dhamma and starting to try to be good....1,000,000 points
a person whose goal is nirvana and who practises Vipassana striving for enlightenment... 1 billion points
a person who is an ariya...sotapanna to anagami..... countless billions

Did the Buddha teach all of this?

No, and it's missing the point in my opinion. Buddhism isn't a frequent flyer program.

The point on the teaching of kamma is not so we can waste our time speculating on who's got the most points and how, it's not so we can waste our time speculating how we got to experience what we are experiencing today and whether or not it's fair.

In my opinion the point is so that you can examine your choices before you act on them, realising that nothing happens in a vacuum and there will be consequences, through doing so you learn to act with more wisdom.

The word kamma means "action", we should focus at the action end of the process not at the result end of the of the process. You can't change the past but you can change the future.

Is it accepted as fact by the sangha and/or does it form part of the dhamma?

I'm glad the Buddha didn't teach this point system?

I find it frightening.

Not due to the consequences I might face but because some could use the assigned values to justify murder or killing.

I find killing or murdering any human heinous & value every life no matter what stage they find themselves.

Even the Buddha would have started at a low point at some stage.

I also thought that eventually (approaching infinity) we might all become enlightened therefore everyone of us is potentially a future Arahant.

Edited by rockyysdt, 2009-11-03 11:07:49.

[fabianfred]

That's why I put this at the beginning...
"Suppose... we considered people of different spiritual progress to have different value...when it comes to karma. It might work like this..."
I wasn't trying declare any real points system...just show that when we create karma with another being....be it good or bad...the spiritual atate of that being does have some effect upon the amount of karma we accrue...
That is why the Thais like to flock to famous monks who are believed to be arahant...they make more merit with them than with an ordinary monk.

Coming from the light...means being born and experiencing the fruits of good past karma.... going to the dark would be one who takes no interest in spiritual development and creates karma leading to rebirth in poorer circumstances.

The store of unexpended karma does not prevent us from progressing to become an ariya in this life.

[rockyysdt]

fabianfred, on 2009-11-04 08:01:19, said:

That's why I put this at the beginning...
"Suppose... we considered people of different spiritual progress to have different value...when it comes to karma. It might work like this..."
I wasn't trying declare any real points system...just show that when we create karma with another being....be it good or bad...the spiritual atate of that being does have some effect upon the amount of karma we accrue...
That is why the Thais like to flock to famous monks who are believed to be arahant...they make more merit with them than with an ordinary monk.

Sorry, I missed the suppose.

But it does appearsto be a big suppose.

Rather than working like that, it could work on the impact of the negative deed & that everyone has equal value regardless of their current position.

fabianfred, on 2009-11-04 08:01:19, said:

Coming from the light...means being born and experiencing the fruits of good past karma.... going to the dark would be one who takes no interest in spiritual development and creates karma leading to rebirth in poorer circumstances.

What causes a person to move "from the light to the dark"?