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[mikecwm]

I think you should really be more discerning about which TV channels you watch.

[bendejo]

I think somebody who makes a big display of patriotism is doing so to cover up something.
There's an old saying "patriotism is the last refuge of the coward."
I disagree. I think it's the first.

Fox News has some pretty funny stuff. That guy Glenn Beck was talking about the new communist revolution that threatened the USA over the weekend, had me rolling on the floor. Sometimes he's better than Colbert.

But as for the topic brought up by the OP, yes, why would you leave the USA if you didn't have to? This is the way most of the 85ers think. Let me explain: for years I've been saying that only 15% of Americans (or rather, US citizens) are intelligent enough to make an informed decision at the polls; you may think that is harsh, but I think I'm being generous. Right-wing dreckmeisters have a name for that 15%, "elites." An elite, from what i can make of it, is someone who feels they can make their own decision, rather than follow the dictates of media blowhards. I call the "non-elites" 85ers. Sometimes I think that it means their IQ is below 85.

Americans are known to have a terrible knowledge of geography (there's another thread about this currently running). In 2001, as the US was gearing up to invade Afghanistan, a woman sitting next to me on a bus asked "why are we invading Argentina?" Most of Americans don't know Thailand from Taiwan, or Australia from Austria. Who the hel_l knows what goes in their heads when the subject of other countries comes up? How can you expect the reaction to be positive? Thank god Fox News is there to tell them what to think! The US invades countries that 85% of it's citizens couldn't locate on the map.

Sometimes when people ask me why I live out here, I tell them 'as they say in the USA "love it or leave" to which I say "here I am."' But I'm not that bad -- last year I voted for the first time in 20 years.

Edited by bendejo, 2009-11-03 23:57:02.

[MrHammer]

It would be interesting to hear Thais opinion on this. What do Thais think about Thais who go abroad for longer periods? (not talking study or summer jobs)

[nisakiman]

Jingthing, on 2009-11-03 09:33:43, said:

Regardless of whether you read the same IMPLIED meaning in the Huckabee rant that I did (that leaving America is un-American), if you are American expat and you have not had stay at home Americans openly question your love of our country, I think you are unusual or came from San Francisco ... The general thrust of this thread remains the same and the question remains the same, is your patriotism suspect because of being an expat? I know it is for Americans, you can't convince me any differently.

I think perhaps it's because America is a relatively young country made up of a disparate population. Patriotism, rather than a shared heritage, is the glue that binds the people together.

Britain has a different attitude. A British expat is an integral part of the British psyche - you are almost expected to become expat. The colonial heritage still manifesting itself, I guess. I've never come across any kind of approbrium meted out to the Brits who choose to live outside the UK.

[smokie36]

nisakiman, on 2009-11-04 00:47:42, said:

Jingthing, on 2009-11-03 09:33:43, said:

Regardless of whether you read the same IMPLIED meaning in the Huckabee rant that I did (that leaving America is un-American), if you are American expat and you have not had stay at home Americans openly question your love of our country, I think you are unusual or came from San Francisco ... The general thrust of this thread remains the same and the question remains the same, is your patriotism suspect because of being an expat? I know it is for Americans, you can't convince me any differently.

I think perhaps it's because America is a relatively young country made up of a disparate population. Patriotism, rather than a shared heritage, is the glue that binds the people together.

Britain has a different attitude. A British expat is an integral part of the British psyche - you are almost expected to become expat. The colonial heritage still manifesting itself, I guess. I've never come across any kind of approbrium meted out to the Brits who choose to live outside the UK.

I think brits are encouraged to travel and explore. Maybe its the small seafaring nation we once were.

Don't suppose the winters do this any harm either. I mean who in the UK could fail to be jealous of their friends sunning themseves in Thailand every winter?

[phetaroi]

Jingthing, on 2009-11-03 02:33:43, said:

Regardless of whether you read the same IMPLIED meaning in the Huckabee rant that I did (that leaving America is un-American), if you are American expat and you have not had stay at home Americans openly question your love of our country, I think you are unusual or came from San Francisco ... The general thrust of this thread remains the same and the question remains the same, is your patriotism suspect because of being an expat? I know it is for Americans, you can't convince me any differently.

Jingthing, you're a good poster, so I don't want to have you think the following is about you...just about the issue you brought up.

I haven't seen the Huckabee episode in question, although I have seen his show in the past. I don't think he's a demagogue, but rather a somewhat moderate Republican trying to figure out how to successfully run for president in an extremely conservative party controlled by the likes of Limbaugh-ites. A lot depends on how you view the messenger. Compare JFK's "Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe, in order to assure the survival and the success of liberty.” How different is that, actually, than George Bush's policy in Iraq? How successful are we going to ultimately be in Iraq, as compared to the Kennedy/LBJ war in Vietnam? Yet, look how differently Kennedy's message is perceived to be than George Bush's message.

I am wondering if you are not misreading Huckabee's intent. It sounds to me as if he was talking about foreign expats living in the U.S. If so, I don't necessarily disagree with him. I am reminded of an incident in my school in Virginia several years ago. In our gym we had a flag from the country of every "foreign" student we had, and above all and biggest of all, an American flag. A Vietnamese parent came in practically frothing at the mouth one day because we didn't have the South Vietnamese flag...a country that no longer existed. We had the current Vietnamese flag. He went nuts and ultimately got nowhere. Had he ever done anything for our school? No. Had he even come to Back To School Night? No. A parent conference? No. A fund-raiser? No.

After 9/11, a lot of us in America were disappointed that Muslims who were living in America did little in speaking out against the terrorist attack. Some were interviewed about it, and the most frequent response was that no matter what, one Muslim doesn't speak out against another. So here they were, getting all the benefits of living in America (I'm talking about the "foreign" Muslims who emigrated to America), but not willing to stand up for their adopted country.

That brings me back to JFK again (and here I paraphrase because I am too lazy to look it up)..."Ask not what your country can do for you, but ask what you can do for your country." I don't think native-born Americans do enough for their country, for the most part, but I think many of the modern immigrants to America do far less. They reap the benefits and nothing more. And for many who have come to America, there's even a sense of anti-Americanism present.

And that brings me to...well, me. What do I give to Thailand. Forget about the value of the financial inflow. That's accidental, not intentional...I'm certainly not gaining any merit with that. I'd like to do some free tutoring. Not allowed since I'm on a retirement visa. I'd like to get involved with some sane environmental groups (e.g., all the trash and rubbish lying around Bangkok). Haven't found a source for that, yet.

It seems like I should have an "ending" to this post, but not sure what it should be.

[phetaroi]

mikecwm, on 2009-11-03 10:48:46, said:

I think you should really be more discerning about which TV channels you watch.

On the other hand. I know Americans who constantly criticize Fox News, but have never watched it. Is that making informed decision?

When I was still in the U.S. I watched CNN about 50% of the time, MSNBC about 30% of the time, and FOX about 20% of the time. Personally, I found CNN the closest to middle-of-the-road, MSNBC to be clearly slanted liberal, and FOX clearly slanted conservative. I also find it interesting how much different CNN international is, than CNN in America. I now like to watch a little BBC for balance.

[samuibeachcomber]

nisakiman, on 2009-11-03 23:47:42, said:

I think perhaps it's because America is a relatively young country made up of a disparate population. Patriotism, rather than a shared heritage, is the glue that binds the people together.

i think this is the reason too.plus the Usa is a very insular country hence the need to flag wave all the time.american expats would be branded traitors(how can anyone find a better place to live)too for forsaking the "good old US of A.more mature countries dont berate their expats but say "good on you" i'd like to leave too,and no one gets offended with these remarks,its a sign of a country that knows its place in the world and is happy with it.

[phetaroi]

bendejo, on 2009-11-03 11:27:30, said:

I think somebody who makes a big display of patriotism is doing so to cover up something.
There's an old saying "patriotism is the last refuge of the coward."
I disagree. I think it's the first.

Fox News has some pretty funny stuff. That guy Glenn Beck was talking about the new communist revolution that threatened the USA over the weekend, had me rolling on the floor. Sometimes he's better than Colbert.

...

Americans are known to have a terrible knowledge of geography (there's another thread about this currently running). In 2001, as the US was gearing up to invade Afghanistan, a woman sitting next to me on a bus asked "why are we invading Argentina?" Most of Americans don't know Thailand from Taiwan, or Australia from Austria. Who the hel_l knows what goes in their heads when the subject of other countries comes up? How can you expect the reaction to be positive? Thank god Fox News is there to tell them what to think! The US invades countries that 85% of it's citizens couldn't locate on the map.

Sometimes when people ask me why I live out here, I tell them 'as they say in the USA "love it or leave" to which I say "here I am."' But I'm not that bad -- last year I voted for the first time in 20 years.

I don't agree with you at all about patriotism. What's wrong with being proud of your country? My only suggestion is that if you want to wrap patriotism around something, then you'd better be realistic about all that your country stands for and has done.

You and I do agree on one thing -- Glenn Beck. What a fruit cake. Don't get me wrong. I can watch and enjoy (and even sat next to on a plane once) George Will. There are other conservatives that make me think. But Beck scares me even more than Limbaugh. He's nothing but a circus act.

I find an awfully lot of people in the world are "whatevertheirowncountryis-centric", not just Americans.

You and I also agree on something else -- I too voted for the first time in about 20 years in the last election!

[Xangsamhua]

Maybe not directly on-topic, but related.

165 million people would like to call the US "home".

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20091103/lf_af..._20091103190030

[jackspratt]

I hate to be a stick-in-the-mud, but how is this even remotely related to Thailand?

ps I haven't read page 2, in case the same question was asked there.

[thaihome]

maccaroni man, on 2009-11-03 20:57:57, said:

yes in the past benefits such as childrens tuition, car, rent etc... the typical benefits that come with over seas assignments were not taxed but the new admin is now considering these benefits income hence people who would normaly want to work in places with high running cost such as singapore want no longer want to and the expats who are already working their are being hit with a whole new tax hike. This is just another example of how the obama admin has it's claws out for the working people who do what they can to live an above average life style.

Completly false. All the allowances you speak of have always been taxable (at least in the 15 years I have worked overseas), both in the US and in the country where you are assigned and paying tax.
TH

[wamberal]

phetaroi, on 2009-11-04 10:04:09, said:

Compare JFK's "Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe, in order to assure the survival and the success of liberty.” How different is that, actually, than George Bush's policy in Iraq? How successful are we going to ultimately be in Iraq, as compared to the Kennedy/LBJ war in Vietnam? Yet, look how differently Kennedy's message is perceived to be than George Bush's message.

I am not an American, I am an Australian. I hope that I have the right to post on this thread, particularly on this post, given that Australia wholeheartedly supported American endeavours in both Vietnam and Iraq.


For starters, JFK did not go into Vietnam on the basis of a lie. (LBJ escalated the war on the basis of a lie, but that is a different story). In retrospect, it might have been better to allow the communists to take over the whole country, as they would have if the US had not intervened. However, what effect that victory might have had in later conflicts and negotiations is not clear. I suspect if you ask the average Thai (who is old enough to remember) whether they are happy that the US intervened in Vietnam, the answer would be an unqualified "yes". At least the Yanks bought time, and put a high price on a communist takeover.

After 9/11, the US had huge reservoirs of goodwill, all around the world. Whether or not muslims in your own country condemned 9/11, a vast majority of the world's population did, openly and emotionally.

And what did Bush do? Invaded Iraq on a false pretext, without sufficient troops, and without any clear strategy - other than deposing Saddam, and of course, upending his statue for the world press to record. Allowed the disbanding of the existing security forces which meant that hundreds of thousands of armed, trained, combatants were thrown onto the streets without any sort of financial support. Stood by while precious and irreplaceable civilian treasures were openly looted. Did not show the slightest comprehension of the rifts in Islam, even the basic and important Shia/Shiite rift between Iraq and Iran. And, like a little tin soldier, claimed "Mission Accomplished". Many hundreds of billions of US dollars later, not to mention hundreds of thousands of civilian and combat lives, we are still there.

As to which conflict will come to the better conclusion, no doubt the people of Vietnam and Iraq will suffer for generations. Perhaps neither of them will be better off.


I declare it a dishonourable draw, but cannot blame JFK. If he had lived, perhaps he would have had the sense not to escalate the conflict.

[Meridian007]

I think the nationalism of a country must be looked at in relation to its level and its flavour. I read an interesting article a while ago which posits that nationalism in the U.S. is a form of messianism. It's related to their history, and actually does have a fundamentalist aspect to it.
This might explain the "rabid nationalism" that people from many other countries ascribe to the "patriotism" of many Americans. It's not that the level of nationalism is different from other countries, it's the drive behind it that creates this particular "flavour" that lends itself to evangelism. People who are influenced by this cannot comprehend the idea of anyone not wanting to be "American", and believe that any resistance to American democratic capitalism is a sure sign of insanity or at best, ignorance.
This might be the source of of the Huckabee speech (I'll admit that I haven't seen it, I'm going on JingThing's description), and his implication that anyone who chooses not to live in the great United States must be subversive, and possibly a "terrorist"!

Perception (and by extension, socialization) can be a dangerous thing when it stops us from having the ability to comprehend other points of view, or be empathetic towards them.


(The article was about liberal developmentalism, as has been seen since the de-colonization of states after the second World War until today. The concept of messianism was originally defined in another article, but is referenced and its effects are shown in the one that I read. I found a PDF of it here if you want to read it: Thomas McCarthy, "From Modernism to Messianism" )

Edited by Meridian007, 2009-11-04 13:00:57.

[Jingthing]

Some clarification. Huckabee was most certainly not talking about foreign expats in the US complaining about the flag at the gym. He was clearly talking about American citizens, that if they exercise their freedom to protest and say they would rather not stare at a big flag while they work out (or in my example, on the toilet) they should be invited to leave the country on a one way ticket. In his rant, he also invoked God, and how God has anything to do with the issue of flags at the gym and the freedom to complain about them is beyond me. Huckabee may not be a demagogue but this particular rant was definitely the type of message politic demagogues project (based on its use of nationalism):

Quote

Nationalism

Last but not least, demagogues promote nationalism. Nationalism is best understood in contrast to patriotism. Whereas patriotism is simply love for one's country and institutions, nationalism is the sense that one's nation is the best, often because it is more sacred than other countries. (Because you can't have two "best" countries, the achievements of other countries and cultures have to be denigrated.) Nationalism is love for one's country plus contempt for other countries mixed with worshipping the symbols of one's nation.

Patriotism is often the result of pride in specific achievements, so it is perfectly compatible with vigorous criticism (that is, there is nothing unpatriotic about criticizing one's country),but nationalism is grounded in total loyalty to some perceived (or projected?) essence of the national identity, and therefore cannot tolerate criticism.

Nationalism is not just attachment to one's nation-state, but to some mythic essence of that identity, so that some ingroup represents the nation and other citizens do not. (In other words, membership in the nation-state is determined legally—you're a member if you're a citizen, but for the mythic dream-state of nationalism, one must be a member of some ingroup, generally a particular ethnicity.) Whereas patriotism strives for fairly practical things (e.g., effective policies, social security, a healthy economy, a just government), nationalism strives, first and foremost, for homogeneity.

http://www.drw.utexas.edu/roberts-miller/h...uts/demagoguery

Edited by Jingthing, 2009-11-04 13:03:49.

[Ulysses G.]

I am not a Huckabee fan, but, as walt said, suggesting that he is any kind of a demagogue, says a lot more about your own politics than his.

[Jingthing]

Ulysses G., on 2009-11-04 15:07:00, said:

I am not a Huckabee fan, but, as walt said, suggesting that he is any kind of a demagogue, says a lot more about your own politics than his.

UG, as I have not studied Huckabee'e entire poltical career, I have limited the charge of demagogue to the hyper nationalistic flag in the gym rant (if you don't want it, leave the country), and provided support for that charge.

However, I am certainly not the only one who sees demagoguery in Huckabee:

Quote

Governor Huckabee is an ignorant demagogue driven by his view of Christian dogma (don't howl, I am a Christian too) who obviously intends to apply his reading of the Bible to government.

http://www.nowpublic.com/opinions/mike-huc...ly-gone-too-far

Edited by Jingthing, 2009-11-04 15:26:10.

[beechguy]

So why is it you criticize Fox News for distorting the truth, then you do the same thing by misrepresenting what Mr. Huckabee said? Seems pretty hypocritical to me.

I didn't see any mention of expats being called unpatriotic. Is it possible that part got edited? I did notice that part of the criticism of the flag display that he reported, was that some felt it may be construed as a Christian symbol. So, what's wrong with freedom of speech, and if the customers didn't like it, they had the freedom to leave and take their business elsewhere.

Edited by beechguy, 2009-11-04 15:56:16.

[Jingthing]

Suggesting people leave the country because they don't like the flag decorations at a gym or in their toilets, is simply outrageous. It is something you might expect from some hot headed posters on an internet forum, not a man with a serious chance of being the US president. I don't know the contract situation at that gym, so if they have prepaid a plan, there are other issues than simply walking away. Of course, they have the freedom to walk away, but they also have the freedom to complain, without being called a waste of space in the country by a politician trying to advance his political career based on knee jerk nationalism.

Edited by Jingthing, 2009-11-04 15:43:42.

[maccaroni man]

thaihome, on 2009-11-04 11:44:05, said:

maccaroni man, on 2009-11-03 20:57:57, said:

yes in the past benefits such as childrens tuition, car, rent etc... the typical benefits that come with over seas assignments were not taxed but the new admin is now considering these benefits income hence people who would normaly want to work in places with high running cost such as singapore want no longer want to and the expats who are already working their are being hit with a whole new tax hike. This is just another example of how the obama admin has it's claws out for the working people who do what they can to live an above average life style.

Completly false. All the allowances you speak of have always been taxable (at least in the 15 years I have worked overseas), both in the US and in the country where you are assigned and paying tax.
TH

'A last-minute amendment attached to the bill has curtailed — and for some expatriates, effectively eliminated — Section 911 benefits, which allow US workers abroad to protect a portion of their overseas compensation from being hit by a second layer of taxation by the Internal Revenue Service. (Overseas Americans must pay all applicable taxes to the government of the country where they live and work, just as foreigners who live and work in the US pay tax to the IRS). The amendment retroactively increases the total allowable foreign-earned-income exclusions from $80,000 to 82,400. But this limit now includes housing benefits (which were previously separate from income exclusions) , and also requires expatriates to stack their residual income on top of the excluded amount before determining the rate at which they ought to pay taxes. Both these changes will lead to significant tax increases for many overseas Americans.'

[beechguy]

Jingthing, on 2009-11-04 15:32:28, said:

Suggesting people leave the country because they don't like the flag decorations at a gym or in their toilets, is simply outrageous. It is something you might expect from some hot headed posters on an internet forum, not a man with a serious chance of being the US president. I don't know the contract situation at that gym, so if they have prepaid a plan, there are other issues than simply walking away. Of course, they have the freedom to walk away, but they also have the freedom to complain, without being called a waste of space in the country by a demagogue trying to advance his political career based on knee jerk nationalism.

Still, does this make it ok for you to misrepresent the facts? Where was the expat bashing per the topic title? Where did he say expats were unpatriotic?
Sure people have a right to complain, Huckabee also has a right to express his opinion, just as you do. I just think it would be better if it was based on fact.

Edited by beechguy, 2009-11-04 15:51:44.

[Jingthing]

I already explained my reasoning in the implied non-patriotism of expats which I read from the politics of the Huckabee rant. I have already explained that many Americans do in fact consider voluntary expats to not be as patriotic as stay at home ones (I consider this a fact). The Huckabee rant example was intended as a starting off point to discuss this issue as it relates to expats in general in Thailand, from different countries. How many times do I need to explain this?

BTW, I would never ask Huckabee or his supporters to leave the country if they don't wish to based on their opinions about the decorations in a gym or in toilets. He did that, and it was outrageous.

The reason I keep bringing up toilets is that if I joined a private club and then later during my membership they installed large American flags in the toilet stalls, I can well imagine I would complain about that, and I wouldn't consider it reasonable to be called anti-American or asked to leave the country against my free will for doing so. Those who didn't want to see the big flag while working out did the exact same kind of thing, they found the flag inappropriate in that setting.

Edited by Jingthing, 2009-11-04 16:10:27.

[GarryP]

If you don't like it get out, so by analogy those who have left, don't like it and thus are unpatriotic. Missing some logic but the inferrence is there.

Simply put, if you left your home country to live elsewhere, what would your compatriots think of you? Good on you, you unpatriotic bast*rd, I'm jealous, etc.

[Jingthing]

GarryP, on 2009-11-04 16:10:33, said:

If you don't like it get out, so by analogy those who have left, don't like it and thus are unpatriotic. Missing some logic but the inferrence is there.

Simply put, if you left your home country to live elsewhere, what would your compatriots think of you? Good on you, you unpatriotic bast*rd, I'm jealous, etc.

That is correct. He did not explicitly state this, but the meaning was implied, and I used that obvious implication with the intention to start a discussion about the issue of the patriotism of expats in general. Even if you disagree that is reasonable to imply the meaning that I did from Huckabee, that doesn't mean the general topic isn't a valid one.

Edited by Jingthing, 2009-11-04 16:16:40.

[Ulysses G.]

GarryP, on 2009-11-04 16:10:33, said:

If you don't like it get out, so by analogy those who have left, don't like it and thus are unpatriotic.

That is not what he said or meant. You are putting words in his mouth!