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[nickynomates]

coalminer, on 2009-11-07 13:40:55, said:

hammered, on 2009-11-07 12:47:48, said:

Just to add to the above that I spent Friday night with a group of Thai people and the hot subject was Thaskin and Cambodia. Needless to say to say the comments about Thaksin were not good. However, most were surprised that he had made such a silly move or taken such an obvious risk. This group were not really red or yellow by the way. Mostly the kind of people that have littel usual interest in poltics so I was a little surpriised that half the night was spent on this one subject.

Edited to add: Im not sure that most Isaan people have Khmer links either. That may be true in some of the southern Isaan but whole swathes of the Isaan certainly dont regard themselves as Khmer.

Tsk, tsk, tsk,

You must live in a total different Issaan as I live.

The whole town where I live (not wooden houses and squats) is cheering now already 2 days with the news about Thaksin, and every house has ASTV running from 24h on 24h.

Every time a red short leader names the word "Abhisit", a cheerio so loud that it wouild cause an earthquake of 10 on the Richter scale is emerging.

Yesterday, some neighbors were planning a trip to Cambodia to welcome Thaksn.

This is not finished, it only is the start of a new episode in the ongoing failures of this government and the PAD.

This is my reading on it as well.

[otherstuff1957]

Coalminer, just out of curiosity, are you in Buriram, Surin or Sisaket? According to the sources I found in a quick googling those seemed to be the provinces with the largest numbers of Thai Khmers.

I also stumbled across an old declassified CIA document that had this to say about the Thai Khmers:

An ambivalent attitude toward the RTC prevails among the Thai-Khmers. Most avow nominal loyalty to the King and Queen, whose pictures may be found on the walls of many homes; nevertheless, the Thai-Khmers may talk about Bangkok as if it were a foreign country. The gap between Bangkok and the Thai-Khmer country has been widened by the paucity of newspapers and radios. Broadcasts from Bangkok, moreover, are in a dialect alien to Khmer ears.



It also said that the official numbers of Khmer in Thailand are grossly underreported.

[Publicus]

Still waiting to hear Red leaders separate themsleves from Thaksin. Who among the Reds is saying anything negative about this deal between Thaksin and Hun Sen? Or about Thaksin the economic advisor to the Cambodian government? About Thaksin possibly relocating to Cambodia?

Reds don't seem concerned. Red forumists instead are trying to misdirect the focus to Abhisit, pursuing their old saw that Mark is in over his head again. Abhisit is playing this one by the book, pursuing the established diplomatic options and actions.

Meanwhile Thaksin the Cambodian is almost forgotten.

Edited by Publicus, 2009-11-07 15:10:51.

[dataserver]

Yesterday:

quote name='dataserver' date='2009-11-06 22:47:41' post='3123291'

Insight, on 2009-11-06 18:43:30, said:

coalminer, on 2009-11-06 16:57:12, said:

coalminer, on 2009-11-06 09:38:34, said:

That would restrict Sondhi and hos recently created Democratic Party from being a candidate as well.

Sondhi elected leader of New Politics Party

....

Thank you for adding clarity to this muddled misstatement.
I appreciate you diligence in keeping things factual.
[unquote]


Today:

coalminer, on 2009-11-07 13:40:55, said:

every house has ASTV running from 24h on 24h.

Every time a red short leader names the word "Abhisit",

More muddling misstatements?
Unless all of a sudden ASTV has become extremely popular in Issan and lots of red short leaders are speaking on it.

Edited by dataserver, 2009-11-07 15:22:32.

[Ricardo]

coalminer, on 2009-11-07 13:00:10, said:

rixalex, on 2009-11-07 09:46:46, said:

This coup wasn't just peacefully accepted, it was broadly welcomed.

Hmmmmmmmm,,,,,,,

Something seems to be wrong in your logic.

If the coup was so "broadly welcomed" as you cliam, the actions of the PAD (occupying streets in Bangkok, occupyng the Governement House, occupying 2 national airports and causing the bioggest fownfall of tourism in ages, etc.) were not justified at all.

Unless the actions of the PAD were meant to bring Thalsin back into power .....

I would suggest that the coup, and any reaction to it, were in September 2006. While the actions of the PAD to which you also refer, were in the autumn of 2008, some two years later.

And anyway the PAD were not protesting in 2008 against the coup, were they ? That was more about PM Somchai and the PPP-led coalition-government remaining focused on white-washing Thaksin, while the economy crumbled, under the shock of the global economic crisis.

But it is interesting to see your reports of the local reaction, to the recent news about Thaksin and Cambodia, in your part of Isaan. Perhaps other posters might continue to report their own experiences, to help build a clearer picture, of Thai peoples' reactions across the whole country ?

[webfact]

Abhisit calls on Thaksin to give priority to national interest

Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva Saturday called on fugitive former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra to review his role and give priority to the national interest.
Abhisit said the on-going conflicts between Thailand and Cambodia stemmed from Thaksin himself.

Abhisit was responding to Thaksin's allegations that the Democrat Party-led government was using internal political problems to harass a neighbouring country.
But Abhisit said the problem occurred because the Cambodian government issued a statement to insult the Thai judicial system.
"The problem did not stem from the Thai government but Cambodia issued a statement that affected Thai judicial system," Abhisit said.
"Thaksin should review his role and consider what he is doing. Does he give priority to the national interest and care about the good ties between Thailand and the neighbouring country? If so, he should review his role and should know what to do."


-- The Nation 2009/11/07

[awd]

Clearly, Abhisit should resign in Thailand's greater interest. Of course, the next guy the military appoints could be uglier, so maybe he should stay.

[Samuian]

Who would have guessed it, it is already going to backfire, Abhisit's popularity is due to Thakasins ongoing attacks against his
"beloved" home country. steadily on the rise!

Quote

In comparison to 23.3 per cent in the survey in September, Abhisit's popularity leaped to 68.6 per cent.

The prime minister was most popular in the South (88.2 per cent), followed by the Central region (68.9 per cent), Bangkok (68.8 per cent) and the North (64.6 per cent).

About 53.1 per cent in the Northeast voiced support for his leadership.

Factors attributing to the rise in popularity include the sentiment against Cambodia's attack on the Thai judicial system and concern over the consequences of the Cambodians' appointment of fugitive ex-premier Thaksin Shinawatra as an adviser.

The Nation

[h90]

coalminer, on 2009-11-07 13:00:10, said:

rixalex, on 2009-11-07 09:46:46, said:

This coup wasn't just peacefully accepted, it was broadly welcomed.

Hmmmmmmmm,,,,,,,

Something seems to be wrong in your logic.

If the coup was so "broadly welcomed" as you cliam, the actions of the PAD (occupying streets in Bangkok, occupyng the Governement House, occupying 2 national airports and causing the bioggest fownfall of tourism in ages, etc.) were not justified at all.

Unless the actions of the PAD were meant to bring Thalsin back into power .....

when did the PAD make any action after the coup and while their government was in power?
Their actions was against the Thaksin nominee government which wanted to change the constitution that way that it whitewash Thaksin.

[h90]

awd, on 2009-11-07 16:02:25, said:

Clearly, Abhisit should resign in Thailand's greater interest. Of course, the next guy the military appoints could be uglier, so maybe he should stay.

??? Abhisit was elected by the majority in Parliament by a coalition of different parties.
Not different than in England, Germany or most other democracy.

[coalminer]

otherstuff1957, on 2009-11-07 15:01:29, said:

Coalminer, just out of curiosity, are you in Buriram, Surin or Sisaket?
According to the sources I found in a quick googling those seemed to be the provinces with the largest numbers of Thai Khmers.

No.
In "the gate to Issaan".

Quote

I also stumbled across an old declassified CIA document that had this to say about the Thai Khmers:

An ambivalent attitude toward the RTC prevails among the Thai-Khmers. Most avow nominal loyalty to the King and Queen, whose pictures may be found on the walls of many homes; nevertheless, the Thai-Khmers may talk about Bangkok as if it were a foreign country. The gap between Bangkok and the Thai-Khmer country has been widened by the paucity of newspapers and radios. Broadcasts from Bangkok, moreover, are in a dialect alien to Khmer ears.


It also said that the official numbers of Khmer in Thailand are grossly underreported.

The number of Khmers in Thailand, or at least the number of citizens in Thailand with Khmer roots are grossly underestimated.

[Siripon]

nickynomates, on 2009-11-07 14:28:16, said:

coalminer, on 2009-11-07 13:40:55, said:

hammered, on 2009-11-07 12:47:48, said:

Just to add to the above that I spent Friday night with a group of Thai people and the hot subject was Thaskin and Cambodia. Needless to say to say the comments about Thaksin were not good. However, most were surprised that he had made such a silly move or taken such an obvious risk. This group were not really red or yellow by the way. Mostly the kind of people that have littel usual interest in poltics so I was a little surpriised that half the night was spent on this one subject.

Edited to add: Im not sure that most Isaan people have Khmer links either. That may be true in some of the southern Isaan but whole swathes of the Isaan certainly dont regard themselves as Khmer.

Tsk, tsk, tsk,

You must live in a total different Issaan as I live.

The whole town where I live (not wooden houses and squats) is cheering now already 2 days with the news about Thaksin, and every house has ASTV running from 24h on 24h.

Every time a red short leader names the word "Abhisit", a cheerio so loud that it wouild cause an earthquake of 10 on the Richter scale is emerging.

Yesterday, some neighbors were planning a trip to Cambodia to welcome Thaksn.

This is not finished, it only is the start of a new episode in the ongoing failures of this government and the PAD.

This is my reading on it as well.

I think coalminer must have spent too long underground. ASTV is the PAD TV station. Many Issan people in towns watch ASTV but not so many in the villages.
What is a red short leader?
I think he's confused.
Issan people in Surin, Buriram, Sisaket and Ubon have some affinity with the Khmers, but north of these provinces most Issan people regard the Khmer as cruel and uncivilised. Unfair perhaps but that's what they think.

[webfact]

PM Abhisit hits back at convicted former premier Thaksin

TOKYO, Nov 7 (TNA) -- Reiterating that the Thai government's decision to downgrade diplomatic relations with its neighbour Cambodia is not considered severe, Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva said here Saturday that convicted former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra should first take Thailand's interests into consideration rather than that of another country.

Mr Abhisit, who attended the two-day Japan-Mekong summit in Tokyo which ended earlier Saturday, said the problem was not caused by Thailand, and that what the Cambodian government did affected the Thai judicial system directly.
Mr Thaksin is also a Thai and he should have realised the impact, but he instead charged that the Thai government had caused the problem, said Mr Abhisit.

"In fact, Mr Thaksin should review his role of what he's doing and think of the country's interests as his priority and also to think on good relations with the country's neighbours as well," said Mr Abhisit.
His remarks were made after Mr Thaksin, whose government was ousted in a bloodless coup in September 2006, on Friday criticised the Thai government's decision to downgrade diplomatic ties with Cambodia.

Both countries have recalled their ambassadors while Thai Foreign Affairs Minister Kasit Piromya has said he would ask the cabinet to consider revoking a memorandum of understanding (MoU) between the two countries on overlapping maritime boundaries in the Gulf of Thailand as the MoU would be affected by Mr Thaksin's appointment as economic advisor to the Cambodian government.

The MoU regarding the Area of their Overlapping Maritime Claims to the Continental Shelf, dated 18 June 2001 was signed by then-foreign minister Surakiart Sathirathai and Cambodian Deputy Prime Minister Sok An during the Thaksin administration.
Thailand's Supreme Court's Criminal Division for Holders of Political Positions sentenced Mr Thaksin to a two-year prison term in absentia after finding him guilty of a conflict of interest in Bangkok's Ratchadaphisek land purchase case in 2003.

Cambodian Prime Minister Hun Sen, however, argued that the charges against Mr Thaksin were politically motivated.
Mr Abhisit said that he did not understand why Mr Thaksin cared more about another country's interests rather than his own country.
He added that earlier reports that Mr Thaksin had vested interest in that country could be true. (TNA)


-- TNA 2009/11/07

[Siripon]

Publicus, on 2009-11-07 15:07:17, said:

Still waiting to hear Red leaders separate themsleves from Thaksin. Who among the Reds is saying anything negative about this deal between Thaksin and Hun Sen? Or about Thaksin the economic advisor to the Cambodian government? About Thaksin possibly relocating to Cambodia?

Reds don't seem concerned. Red forumists instead are trying to misdirect the focus to Abhisit, pursuing their old saw that Mark is in over his head again. Abhisit is playing this one by the book, pursuing the established diplomatic options and actions.

Meanwhile Thaksin the Cambodian is almost forgotten.

Publicus, Thaksin is god to the reds. Reds want to change the constitution, daddy calls from Dubai, 'don't change the constitution'.
Reds change their minds don't want to change the constitution.
They're pathetic and one day will wake up with broken hearts and for some, no more funds to slip into their already bulging pockets.

[coalminer]

dataserver, on 2009-11-07 15:14:20, said:

coalminer, on 2009-11-07 13:40:55, said:

every house has ASTV running from 24h on 24h.

More muddling misstatements?
Unless all of a sudden ASTV has become extremely popular in Issan and lots of red short leaders are speaking on it.

For the "newbie" with 4 posts:

The TV channel is: สถานึ ประชาชม

[WinnieTheKhwai]

Insight, on 2009-11-07 14:05:54, said:

WinnieTheKhwai, on 2009-11-07 13:51:02, said:

I'm not sure it matters much though; in the general political scheme of things the key words are equality and economic opportunity; Thaksin got elected in successive landslide election victories not because of ethnicity (the man's Chinese and from Chiang Mai for crying out loud) but because he empowered a region that until then was regarded as the nation's toilet and a source of cheap labor.

That worked very well for Thaksin, until the powers that be had enough and began to consider him a threat. Then it was quickly ended, and Abhisit put in power.

Not quite.

The military stood in the prevent a looming confrontation between the anti and pro Thaksin groups, following weeks upon weeks of anti-Thaksin protests.

Wow.

Where to start... I guess I'll just summarize by stating that I disagree; this was exactly the line that the likes of The Nation tried to spin in regards to the coup; I didn't think anyone would actually buy it but I guess I was wrong!

Edited by WinnieTheKhwai, 2009-11-07 16:50:51.

[coalminer]

Ricardo, on 2009-11-07 15:35:17, said:

coalminer, on 2009-11-07 13:00:10, said:

rixalex, on 2009-11-07 09:46:46, said:

This coup wasn't just peacefully accepted, it was broadly welcomed.

Hmmmmmmmm,,,,,,,

Something seems to be wrong in your logic.

If the coup was so "broadly welcomed" as you cliam, the actions of the PAD (occupying streets in Bangkok, occupyng the Governement House, occupying 2 national airports and causing the bioggest fownfall of tourism in ages, etc.) were not justified at all.

Unless the actions of the PAD were meant to bring Thalsin back into power .....

I would suggest that the coup, and any reaction to it, were in September 2006. While the actions of the PAD to which you also refer, were in the autumn of 2008, some two years later.

And anyway the PAD were not protesting in 2008 against the coup, were they ? That was more about PM Somchai and the PPP-led coalition-government remaining focused on white-washing Thaksin, while the economy crumbled, under the shock of the global economic crisis.

But it is interesting to see your reports of the local reaction, to the recent news about Thaksin and Cambodia, in your part of Isaan. Perhaps other posters might continue to report their own experiences, to help build a clearer picture, of Thai peoples' reactions across the whole country ?

Ricardo, you should try to read what is written.

If the coup was meant to oust Thaksin and was "broadly welcomed", why start to occupy the Governement House and 2 airports by the PAD, causing huge economic troubles to Thailand.

Thaksn was already ousted, so the main problem was out of the way.

It was very easy in the time after the coup to let the Court and the anti-corruption cell to take their conclusions.

The actions of the PAD and their "guarding angel" holding his wings over them in everything they did ware only causing more troubles in an already destablilised nation.

And the "failures" of the Justice and Police in getting anyone of the PAD to Court but on the otherhand showing the diligence to find the person(s) who attacked Sondhi L. in one week are unbelievable.

[coalminer]

webfact, on 2009-11-07 16:39:20, said:

Mr Abhisit said that he did not understand why Mr Thaksin cared more about another country's interests rather than his own country.
He added that earlier reports that Mr Thaksin had vested interest in that country could be true. (TNA)


-- TNA 2009/11/07

Convict Thaksin for signing a document for his wife to purchase land while some other real criminals (PAD) walk free, freezing all the assets fron Thakisn AND his family, chasing Thaksin AND his family around the globe while already ousted, not failing any occasion to bring Thaksin in the news again as by canceling his visa, etc...

And Absint can not understand why Thaksin choosed to be Economic Adviser to have an income?

Did this guy really attend an English University or did he baught his titels?

[Steve2UK]

Samuian, on 2009-11-07 16:09:55, said:

Who would have guessed it, it is already going to backfire, Abhisit's popularity is due to Thakasins ongoing attacks against his
"beloved" home country. steadily on the rise!

Quote

In comparison to 23.3 per cent in the survey in September, Abhisit's popularity leaped to 68.6 per cent.

The prime minister was most popular in the South (88.2 per cent), followed by the Central region (68.9 per cent), Bangkok (68.8 per cent) and the North (64.6 per cent).

About 53.1 per cent in the Northeast voiced support for his leadership.

Factors attributing to the rise in popularity include the sentiment against Cambodia's attack on the Thai judicial system and concern over the consequences of the Cambodians' appointment of fugitive ex-premier Thaksin Shinawatra as an adviser.

The Nation

Something The Nation managed to not tell you (surprise, surprise - but, in fairness, neither does Bangkok Post's coverage) is just what questions ABAC asked in their 6 November poll. Courtesy of http://siamreport.blogspot.com/2009/11/abh...y-jumps-30.html and (Thai language), here is what they left out:

Question 1: Do you know about Hun Sen's interview in which he attacked the fairness of the Thai judicial system?
Question 2: Do you support the Abhisit government?

The second question was also asked on 19 September - but, of course, without the Hun Sen question being put first (of course not - Hun Sen hadn't said anything at that point). In September, an overall 23.3% said "yes" (they did support the Abhisit government). The 6 November overall figure for those saying "yes" to the same question is 68.6%. That's an astonishing jump - but only if you ignore the Hun Sen question being asked first (81.1% saying they did know about it)......... which entirely predictably turns the Abhisit support question into an Abhisit v. Hun Sen (effectively Thailand v. Cambodia) question.

All of which goes to show how essential it is to know what questions were asked and in what order - so that we can compare like with like. These two polls are like comparing apples and oranges.

Lies, damned lies, statistics - and opinion polls with dodgy methodology. After you with the salt.........

[Publicus]

Siripon, on 2009-11-07 17:44:39, said:

Publicus, on 2009-11-07 15:07:17, said:

Still waiting to hear Red leaders separate themsleves from Thaksin. Who among the Reds is saying anything negative about this deal between Thaksin and Hun Sen? Or about Thaksin the economic advisor to the Cambodian government? About Thaksin possibly relocating to Cambodia?

Reds don't seem concerned. Red forumists instead are trying to misdirect the focus to Abhisit, pursuing their old saw that Mark is in over his head again. Abhisit is playing this one by the book, pursuing the established diplomatic options and actions.

Meanwhile Thaksin the Cambodian is almost forgotten.

Publicus, Thaksin is god to the reds. Reds want to change the constitution, daddy calls from Dubai, 'don't change the constitution'.
Reds change their minds don't want to change the constitution.
They're pathetic and one day will wake up with broken hearts and for some, no more funds to slip into their already bulging pockets.

Siripon my friend, I don't know on what you and I might disagree. Do you know my posts?

My post you cite above points out that the Reds are standing beside Thaksin and indicates that Red forumists are discussing anyone but Thaksin at this thread, and anything but Thaksin. The Red forumists are trying to misdirect the thread to the coup, the PAD, Abhisit, Kasit, poverty, the Nation media group - soon we'll get the kitchen sink thrown in but no discussion from the Reds of Thaksin the Cambodian.

The forum Reds are understandable in their avoidance of discussing Thaksin the Cambodian because there isn't any defense of it. None what so ever. Edited because a Red poster just said Thaksin has become economic advisor to Hun Sen and his government because Thaksin needs an income.

There's just no defending Thaksin the Cambodian.

Edited by Publicus, 2009-11-07 17:31:56.

[hammered]

coalminer, on 2009-11-07 13:26:52, said:

hammered, on 2009-11-07 12:47:48, said:

Im not sure that most Isaan people have Khmer links either. That may be true in some of the southern Isaan but whole swathes of the Isaan certainly dont regard themselves as Khmer.

http://www.thailands...index.cfm?p=277

Look particularly at the map of the Khmer Empire in 1200

As I said whole swathes of the Isaan mostly north of Sisaket, Surin and Buri Ram dont regard themselves as Khmer and quite honestly wouldnt want others describing them that way. This may not be nice but..... The throw what the rest of the Thai people think of Cambodia in general into the equation. There a lot in Thaksins northern politcal base with little liking for that country and its people. It is fair to also point out that the Khmer feel the same towards Thais and of course Hun Sen is playing on this for local poltical advantage as well as not doubnt being promised a good for Cfambodia gas and oil deal if the PTP get back to power. Then again that is politcs or is once you accept that countires do not readily apppoint discredited and convicted ex-leaders to ceremonial positions unless they want a diplomatic at least spat and Hun Sen knew this. To quite what extent Thaksin is being used in a way beyond what he wanted by Hun Sen remains moot but by his actions he has tied his fortunes to the game Hun Sen decides to play. Hun Sen looks like a more savvy player than Thaksin and that is quite high praise as Thaksin is no slouch at poltical games although this time he seems to at least now being played.

[dataserver]

coalminer, on 2009-11-07 16:44:54, said:

dataserver, on 2009-11-07 15:14:20, said:

coalminer, on 2009-11-07 13:40:55, said:

every house has ASTV running from 24h on 24h.

More muddling misstatements?
Unless all of a sudden ASTV has become extremely popular in Issan and lots of red short leaders are speaking on it.

The TV channel is: สถานึ ประชาชม

Yes, that confirms that what you were writing about was ASTV (written in Thai above).

And what you are saying is that every house in your Issan village watches Sondhi's PAD television station all day long?

And also that the ASTV you are watching up there has red short leaders speaking enthusiastically on PAD's TV channel? It must be quite a different version of ASTV than what is received here in the Eastern Seaboard, because generally speaking, on the ASTV that we receive here, red shirt leaders are besmirched and belittled on it by PAD leaders.

But thanks for confirming that you are certain it's ASTV that you are talking about.

Edited by dataserver, 2009-11-07 17:38:37.

[hammered]

Edited as I couldnt stop laughing

Edited by hammered, 2009-11-07 17:27:01.

[coalminer]

dataserver, on 2009-11-07 17:19:29, said:

coalminer, on 2009-11-07 16:44:54, said:

dataserver, on 2009-11-07 15:14:20, said:

coalminer, on 2009-11-07 13:40:55, said:

every house has ASTV running from 24h on 24h.

More muddling misstatements?
Unless all of a sudden ASTV has become extremely popular in Issan and lots of red short leaders are speaking on it.

The TV channel is: สถานึ ประชาชม

Yes, that confirms that what you were writing about was ASTV (written in Thai above).

And what you are saying is that every house in your Issan village watches Sondhi's PAD television station all day long?

And also that the ASTV you are watching up there has red short leaders speaking enthusiastically on PAD's TV channel? It must be quite a different version of ASTV than what is received here in the Eastern Seaboard, because generally speaking, on the ASTV that we receive here, red shirt leaders are besmirched and belittled on it by PAD leaders.

But thanks for confirming that you are certain it's ASTV that you are talking about.

TV pictures taken a few seconds ago at one of my neighbors house.

Look at top right text.

Big failure of a newbie with 5 posts .....

 07112009148.jpg   398.76K   30 downloads
 07112009147.jpg   467.69K   13 downloads

[dataserver]

I'm sorry to have interfered with your postings, hammered... please try again.

Edited by dataserver, 2009-11-07 17:49:28.