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[ballzafire]

http://www.sodahead....lu/blog-161241/  

  Still want the shot?  

Then you prolly deserve to be culled anyway.........

[KBTexas]

Ya know, it is stuff like this that makes me wonder how there are so many people in this world.  It certainly proves that math is not high on the list of survival skills!

Number of people reported killed by lightning in the US over the last 30 years -> 58 (just for comparison...no real correlation)
Number of children who have died in the US of H1N1 as of Nov 2009 -> 112
Number of severe adverse reactions reported worldwide of H1N1 vaccine -> ~5
Number of deaths confirmed from H1N1 vaccine worldwide -> 0
Number of any adverse reactions from report on ~753,000 doses in Arizona -> 67
Number of severe adverse reactions from report on ~753,000 doses in Arizona -> 0
Number of deaths reported from report on ~753,000 doses in Arizona -> 0

How afraid are you of being killed by lightning?

If you are a rational adult (I am guessing here) then this 'oh my god' hysteria AGAINST a vaccine that might save your or your child's life based on rumor and innuendo is stupidity that in my opinion is akin to your last statement on culling.  But of course, to people who think of it as you do, it is a conspiracy to not report any of the adverse reactions or deaths I guess.  Do yourself and your children a favor and get the vaccine!  If you have a hard time with the math, struggle with it until you understand it as it is important.

Link to story on Arizona study

[skipvice]

very good reply KB, getting the wife and Me a shot next week when its available here.

[KBTexas]

skipvice, on 2009-11-17 08:58:26, said:

very good reply KB, getting the wife and Me a shot next week when its available here.

Personally, I think that is a good move.  It is still in short supply here, and I am in a low risk group, so it will be a while before I can get one.

Here are a few more facts to add to those above consider for those of you on the fence:

Number of AH1N1 cases worldwide as of Nov 2009 -> more than 503,000
Number of deaths attributed to AH1N1 worldwide as of Nov 2009 -> 7.092

So, if you extrapolate the 0 deaths, 0 severe reactions on ~753,000 doses of vaccine with ~7,000 deaths in 503,000 cases, which do YOU think is safer?  If you still choose to not get the vaccine, good on you...just hope that the odds don't fall against you.

Another link for data

Oh, and on the data in the first message, the number of deaths for lightning is 58 per year, not 58 for 30 years.

Reason for edit: added clarification on lightning data

Edited by KBTexas, 2009-11-17 23:00:08.

[Jonathanpattaya]

I have a family member, working for a well-known pharmaceutical company, who told me the following:

Swine flu is just another of the many influenza viruses and the media has made the world believe that a vaccine is required.

It is not and some of the vaccines being used are very dangerous.

Just sweat it out the old fashioned way!

[ukrules]

KBTexas, on 2009-11-17 22:35:34, said:

Number of children who have died in the US of H1N1 as of Nov 2009 -> 112

New figures were released recently, here they are :

They are estimates.

Deaths
0-17 years ~540
18-64 years ~2,920
65 years and older ~440
Deaths Total ~3,900

Note - these numbers although they are the latest figures are not up to date either and only count people who have died up until October 17th so the true figures to date will definitely be higher than this.

Source : Direct from the CDC : http://cdc.gov/h1n1f...s_2009_h1n1.htm

These figures show something that doesn't happen with 'normal' seasonal flu, the vast majority of the deaths are affecting people under the age of 65. More children are dying as a result of this new variant  than older people.

Edit : These figures refer only to people who have died from swine flu in the USA

Edited by ukrules, 2009-11-18 01:11:06.

[endure]

Jonathanpattaya, on 2009-11-18 00:32:29, said:

I have a family member, working for a well-known pharmaceutical company, who told me the following:

Swine flu is just another of the many influenza viruses and the media has made the world believe that a vaccine is required.

It is not and some of the vaccines being used are very dangerous.

Just sweat it out the old fashioned way!

The 1918 Spanish Flu was 'just another of the many influenza viruses.' It killed somewhere between 50 and 100 million people worldwide.

[Jonathanpattaya]

endure, on 2009-11-18 01:32:21, said:

Jonathanpattaya, on 2009-11-18 00:32:29, said:

I have a family member, working for a well-known pharmaceutical company, who told me the following:

Swine flu is just another of the many influenza viruses and the media has made the world believe that a vaccine is required.

It is not and some of the vaccines being used are very dangerous.

Just sweat it out the old fashioned way!

The 1918 Spanish Flu was 'just another of the many influenza viruses.' It killed somewhere between 50 and 100 million people worldwide.

That is true however, influenza generally kills those who are suffering from other ailments or are malnourished.

[Beacher]

Well, the good news is that the controversy seem basically split between people who want the vaccine and those who don't, so for those who want it there should be lots to go around.

I'm pretty indifferent to the opinions and will most likely not bother getting a shot. However, if governments and their health agencies attempt to force people to get one, then I'll get very suspicious and do everything I can to avoid it. I

[Crushdepth]

It is also worth considering that a vaccine doesn't just protect you, it protects the people around you as well.



- risk of death from vaccination = 1-2 in a million.
- risk of death from smallpox infection = 300,000 in a million.

Nobody said vaccines are risk free, the point is that having them is much safer than not having them.

[junkofdavid2]

Useless to argue with the opening poster about paranoia...

He thinks his own "ballz ar'n fire" !

[antony77]

KBTexas, on 2009-11-17 22:35:34, said:

Ya know, it is stuff like this that makes me wonder how there are so many people in this world.  It certainly proves that math is not high on the list of survival skills!

Number of people reported killed by lightning in the US over the last 30 years -> 58 (just for comparison...no real correlation)
Number of children who have died in the US of H1N1 as of Nov 2009 -> 112
Number of severe adverse reactions reported worldwide of H1N1 vaccine -> ~5
Number of deaths confirmed from H1N1 vaccine worldwide -> 0
Number of any adverse reactions from report on ~753,000 doses in Arizona -> 67
Number of severe adverse reactions from report on ~753,000 doses in Arizona -> 0
Number of deaths reported from report on ~753,000 doses in Arizona -> 0

How afraid are you of being killed by lightning?

If you are a rational adult (I am guessing here) then this 'oh my god' hysteria AGAINST a vaccine that might save your or your child's life based on rumor and innuendo is stupidity that in my opinion is akin to your last statement on culling.  But of course, to people who think of it as you do, it is a conspiracy to not report any of the adverse reactions or deaths I guess.  Do yourself and your children a favor and get the vaccine!  If you have a hard time with the math, struggle with it until you understand it as it is important.

Link to story on Arizona study

My Doctor friend forced me to get the vaccine because being over 65 and catching the "swine flu" could be fatal

[KBTexas]

rabcbroon, on 2009-11-17 21:46:21, said:

Let those who want the vaccine take it without hinderence.  It is part of natural selection.  Those who choose to have mecury and other know toxins injected into their bodys should thanked for helping to reduce future world population problems.

Good on ya

Ya know, you are probably here and healthy because YOU HAD VACCINATIONS for the majority of nasty diseases when your parents were smarter than you.  I agree 100% with you...if you don't want vaccines, good on ya.  Over generations, lack of vaccines will remove your gene's from the gene pool, unless you happen to be one of those incredibly lucky folks who have the mutations to fight any really nasty pathogen.

I assume you eat seafood, no?  (kind of hard not to in Thailand)  Interestingly, you get approximately the same amount of mercury from the jab as you do in a can of tuna, but only if that jab is from a multi-dose bottle. (single jabs usually do not contain mercury)  I assume you've eaten more than 1 can of tuna (or fresh tuna) in your life...have you died yet?  But perhaps you DID eat too much seafood, and that explains the brain damage that doesn't allow you to think rationally about risk.  Link to fish/mercury levels

Like I said...I don't really care whether you personally will or will not get the jab.  Good on ya...it's your life.  I DO care that people like you might prevent your children from being vaccinated, and thereby increase the risk of nasty diseases that are fairly under control right now spreading back into the general population.  Then you are right...natural selection will definitely play a role and will help the world population problem.  If your kids/grandkids get polio (or any other nasty, preventable disease) because you or their parents refused vaccination, I personally would think that would be grounds for criminal charges if they infected anyone else.  Just my two cents, and certainly not pc...but there has to be some responsibility shown somewhere, even if it is all the rage to blame something/someone else.

[zzaa09]

Beacher, on 2009-11-18 11:30:24, said:

Well, the good news is that the controversy seem basically split between people who want the vaccine and those who don't, so for those who want it there should be lots to go around.

I'm pretty indifferent to the opinions and will most likely not bother getting a shot. However, if governments and their health agencies attempt to force people to get one, then I'll get very suspicious and do everything I can to avoid it. I

What we should be agreeing upon is the solid distrust of the Medical Pharmaceutical Industrial Mafia. They've no interest in your well-being.

[endure]

zzaa09, on 2009-11-18 21:57:41, said:

Beacher, on 2009-11-18 11:30:24, said:

Well, the good news is that the controversy seem basically split between people who want the vaccine and those who don't, so for those who want it there should be lots to go around.

I'm pretty indifferent to the opinions and will most likely not bother getting a shot. However, if governments and their health agencies attempt to force people to get one, then I'll get very suspicious and do everything I can to avoid it. I

What we should be agreeing upon is the solid distrust of the Medical Pharmaceutical Industrial Mafia. They've no interest in your well-being.

Of course they haven't. The Medical Pharmaceutical Industrial Mafia is made up solely of non humans whose only purpose is to feed their alien families on the profits of destroying human children. The Black Helicopters arrive soon. Which planet do you live on?

[ScubaBuddha]

I wonder how long Fox "News" (probably the most unreliable, biased place to be getting medical advice from) had to look for a Doc that would actually tell the public to not get vaccinated. Every time someone posts a link like "Dr. admits vaccine is more deadly than swine flu" or other such non-sense, if you go look the source, you find out that the "Dr." making the claims is always some natural healing or alternative medicine "doctor" like Kent here. He is a bioidentical hormone therapy doctor. Bioidentical hormones are not FDA approved and many believe are harmful. You have to pay cash at his office because insurance companies don't consider it legitimate treatment!! Fox "News" introduces him as an "Infectious Disease Expert" which is debatable. Hannity in the below recording more accurately describes him as "Medical Director at Holtorf Medical Group" (his small alternative medicine practice in Los Angeles, CA)  As much as I hate giving this guy hits to his web page:
    
    http://www.holtorfme...kent-holtorf-md

A Google search of Dr. Kent Holtorf yields only links to his small practice in LA as well as other anti-vaccine interviews such as this one with Sean Hannity, also on Fox "News."  On youtube the guy is seen making the rounds on various talk radio and TV shows. He appears to love the spotlight.

Very interesting to note that Kent's tone has really changed in the Radio interview when compared to the TV interview, in fact he even says, "I'm not saying don't get this (the vaccine)" in the radio interview, in which he gets a little bit owned by the other guy who seems amazed that he as actually debating another certified physician on this issue. See, Kent knows there's big money in TV if he just says the right things. It's amazing how even doctors aren't immune (pun intended) to compromising their integrity and violating the Hippocratic oath for a few bucks. What a hypocrite. (pun intended again)  But since he can say "fibromyalgia" faster than anyone I know, he must know what he is talking about.
part 1

part 2

I particularly like time index 7:30 to 8:05. Kent gets owned at 7:50. "We can use our wits or we can use science." lol
  
And I would like to hear his medical explanation for his comment "It's better to get Swine flu than seasonal flu."

Edited by Scubabuddha, 2009-11-19 05:40:05.

[manarak]

Quote

And I would like to hear his medical explanation for his comment "It's better to get Swine flu than seasonal flu."

About that, I can relate.

The current swine flu is not more harmful than the regular seasonal flu, but scientists are afraid it could mutate into something more lethal, like the earlier spanish flu.

so...

if one gets the swine flu today and the body fights it off like any normal flu by producing antibodies against this virus there is a chance that these antibodies will also work against the mutated virus.

[ScubaBuddha]

manarak, on 2009-11-19 05:31:47, said:

Quote

And I would like to hear his medical explanation for his comment "It's better to get Swine flu than seasonal flu."

About that, I can relate.

The current swine flu is not more harmful than the regular seasonal flu, but scientists are afraid it could mutate into something more lethal, like the earlier spanish flu.

But then why do we continually hear that swine is still infecting younger, healthy people when compared with regular flu? (See attachment)

manarak, on 2009-11-19 05:31:47, said:

if one gets the swine flu today and the body fights it off like any normal flu by producing antibodies against this virus there is a chance that these antibodies will also work against the mutated virus.

This doesn't explain his comment because Dr. Holtorf was talking about which flu was better to get in terms of symptoms. Watch the video again you'll see what I mean.

Attached Files

•  EIP44_small.gif   32.35K   5 downloads

Edited by Scubabuddha, 2009-11-19 06:05:34.

[dieter1]

I am quite sure, there are a lot more dangerous thinks that can kill you compared to pigs-flue.
For example: eating every week at Mc Don.
Drink two bottle of bear each day.
Drive, walk or whatever in the streets
have a bath or shower (very dangerous , esp. for older people)
eat to much - approxim. what 50 % of people do - it will be the most common reason for early dying in the next decades.
And so on.

The vaccination will cost nearly 1 Billion in our country (for about half of the population, two times) cost for the vaccination and cost for medical support to do it.
For 1 billion, you could save a lot of people, spending it in different way.

Every year, more the thousand of people get killed by the normal flu. No one was ever thinking of given vaccination to everybody because of this. (And: having the vaccination does not lower the possibility of getting the infections to zero)

In my country, (80 mill people) over 1 million people are dying every year. The main reason for dying too early is
smoking and eating too much  (fat, sugar, unhealthy food  produced from food-industry)

So if there would be a real effort to help people to have a bigger chance of dying in old age (meaning not dying in early age), there would be much to do in these fields. But this would hurt the profits of the food industry.

I would mean to make unhealthy food illegal or make a big tax for these dangerous kind of food.

I am quite sure , they will do it, but far too late. May be in 20 years, when 70% of the population will be nearly unable to work anymore. ( I am not joking, they do start already to forbid advertisement  for unhealthy child- food (sugar) in some countries, because the rising of food related diseases in childhood is so extremly high,f.e. diabetes, overweight ...)

Edited by dieter1, 2009-11-19 06:06:32.

[geriatrickid]

Can we please back up.
Fox runs an interview with  a fellow  described as an "infectious disease" expert. Really? Says who? The fellow runs a clinic where he sells hormones. I do not see any credentials  supporting the claim to  infectious disease expertise. The  interview on Fox, which is hardly the network of science serves as a good opportunity to get some face time and that's it. If he's an expert in the  identification and treatment of infectious diseases, please  tell me where;
- He has undertaken academic study in the specialty. An MD is 4 years of university and 1year internship and 1 year residency if one wishes to become a GP, which is what I believe he is. I do not see any advanced training in endocrinology, oh wait, maybe that's because he is not an endocrinologist yet claims to have the ability to treat such illnesses. I do not see  the usual 4-7 years of clinical study. He must be very special not have that training. If I am wrong, please correct me.
- He's in California. Need I say more?
- Does he have any published peer reviewed  research papers? I don't think so.
- Is he recognized as an infectious disease specialist by the   governing body, i.e. College of Physicians? I don't think so.


I always laugh when I see people  trot out unqualified people to substantiate their views and accept these  statements as the gospel. And yet they so quickly dismiss others that have more substance that base their statements on fact and  demonstrable evidence.

For the millionth time; the flu vaccine has been around for over 50 years. If there was a problem with the flu vaccine we would have seen it by now. The methodology of manufacture while enhanced is still basically the same as it always was. All that changes in a flu vaccine is the  little bits of RNA used to make the specific vaccine variant.  

If you don't want the flu vaccine, that's cool, don't take it. However, don't go on a mission and tell everyone that they are being conned, because you need to justify your position. Vaccines work. If they didn't work, diseases like smallpox, polio, diptheria, mumps and measles etc. would be out of control in Thailand.

[ScubaBuddha]

Thanks geriactrickid for echoing my previous post. Sounds like you may have missed it. I felt the same way you did about it so I did a little searching. TO be fair, the Doc in question's website claims he is an expert in chronic infectious disease, which is a bit different than acute infectious diseases like influenza, but that's probably how Fox got away with calling him an "Expert in infectious diseases".  Regardless, his focus is gene therapy. He touts alternative medicine. Every time I look up one of these quacks that are suggesting no one take the vaccine, they end up being from outside mainstream medicine.

Anyway, my brother in-law and sister are both medical doctors, one an internist and the other a director of one of the worlds leading neurology departments, and they wouldn't lie to me. They say there is no great cover-up with vaccine dangers. The negative incidents with vaccines are statistically insignificant. They vaccinate their kids.

[Nienke]

Now a Spanish nun but before a doctor who studied internal medicine at New York State University and with a PhD in Public Health at Harvard: (it consists of 6 parts)
And a translation of a fact-sheet she published  in the New England Journal of Medicine. It contains most of what's in the video at: http://www.slideshar...tation-on-h1-n1

[jsflynn603]

Ok, I looked at the video.   It is pathetic. He states that one gets 25,000x the amount of mercury  that you would get in food, in each vaccination.  This guy clearly knows nothing about mercury  in vaccine.

    In fact he is off by exactly 25,000 x if considering one  vaccine.

    Let me explain just how ignorant this man's one statement  is:  He says: "there is 25,000 times the  level of mercury than what you would find in food."

    Go to fda's (US governmental food and drug site) (or any  other site) and/or just search for: "mercury levels in commercial foods and  shellfish."

    Now look at "tuna, canned, light": You see that the "mean"  or the middle result of 100 tests (not looking at the max which is much higher),  is listed as 0.118ppm (parts per million) content of mercury.

    Since:

    1 microgram = 0.000001 gram
  1 gram = 1 gram
  1 microgram/gram = 0.000001/1 = 1/1000000 = 1 PPM

    So micrograms and ppm are the same.

    One tuna fish sandwich, using 4 ounces of tuna which is the  same as 114.6 grams will contain 0.118 micrograms per gram or 0.92 micrograms,  rounding out to about 1 microgram of mercury if one eats this sandwich.  This fellow claims that vaccination gives a  person 25,000x that dose which is 25,000 micrograms.

    So how far off is he?

    Well since Flumist (the nasal sprayed version) has 0.00  micrograms of mercury, on that product he's just "wrong."  One might say that he is 25,000x wrong.

    Let's look at two vaccines that does contain mercury as  thimerosal:

    Novartis single dose adult vial contains 1 microgram of  mercury. Therefore a Novartis single dose unit vaccination contains the same as  the "mean" tuna sandwich.  

    But wait!  All  influenza vaccine is not the same. Let's be fair.  Let's look at the Novartis multi-dose vial  which holds 10 doses in each vial.  This  indeed contains more mercury, 40x more than the single dose units, or 40  micrograms of mercury per dose.  One dose  of this vaccine contains the same mercury as 40 sandwiches.  This is more mercury indeed and one does not  eat 40 sandwiches a day.  But still, he  says the dose is 25,000 times, but still he is very wrong as in reality one  would have to have 635 shots to get what he says you would.  Ouch!   So he is still off by a huge amount as we see that this dose is 40x what  one would get with food.

    This is the problem with getting information from the news  or from the internet.  One must look  carefully and check such claims.

    So if you want to consider getting or not getting the  vaccine based on the mercury argument the answer is clear: get the  Flumist.  (Pregnant mothers cannot,  children generally can.)  Since I would  feed my kids, had I any, tuna fish or other fish, I would not have a problem  with the Novartis single dose units especially as (I think) the child dose is ½  the volume or ½ a microgram of mercury.   Would I give my 1 to 4 year older a dose of the multi-vial vaccine.  No.   Though there seems to be little evidence that mercury or thimerisol causes  Autism, why take the chance, try to find a low mercury vaccine or one that is  thimerosol free like Flumist.  Every  manufacturer in the world has "inserts" that come with the vaccine that tells  mercury content.  If your practitioner  says: "we don't know," maybe it is time to find another that knows how to  read.  (Or who will take your question  seriously).

    Further the video is from August.  Also they talk about vaccine adjuvants and preservative  as if they are one in the same.  They are  not.  They talk about how bad the  adjuvants are however USA vaccines contain no adjuvants, neither simple ones  nor the debated squalene.  

    In short the video contains much mis-information and very  little fact and should be ignored.

    As far as whether to get the vaccine or not, as someone  pointed out earlier, not one single "adverse reaction death" due to the vaccine  has been confirmed by WHO (World Health).   But 3600 cases of death by H1N1 have been confirmed.  This is not to say that the vaccine is  without risk, but it is to say that the numbers are pretty self-evident.

    Yes, the mortality is not much different than seasonal flu.  Here in the US the death rate for seasonal influenza is about 1 per 1000  infected, or on an average year about 3600 deaths with about 39 million  infected (average % of population infected as 20%, usual range is 10-30%, see  CDC).  The death rate for this influenza  word-wide is about 1 death per 500 infected (See World Health Organization).  The death rate for children seems markedly  higher than it appears to be for seasonal influenza. I don't know the  age-related death rate but generally with seasonal influenza it is the very  young and the very old.  With H1N1 it  appears to be the very young and the "young and healthy," not the aged who are  most affected.  

    I hope this information has been helpful in debunking the  aforementioned video.  Stay well all.

Oh, and Deiter1, yes you will die before you drink two bottles of bear, bear hate being stuffed into bottles, they will kill you before you succeed getting them into the bottles...


(sorry, the devil made me say that....)

[junkofdavid2]

How to get a quick cult-following (and possibly turn it into quick cash) in the "alternative medicine" business:

1) Get a mainstream medical degree.
2) Put the "Dr." in front of your name.
3) Completely disregard, trash, and ignore all you learned in medical school.
4) Come out with a controversial "medical" statement against a proven mainstream practice (e.g. vaccines, etc.)
5) Create  your own website, newsletter, products, etc.
6) Let the cash roll in... or if you don't care for cash, you can at least enjoy the limelight (among cult-members).  

[ScubaBuddha]

junkofdavid2, on 2009-11-22 13:26:20, said:

How to get a quick cult-following (and possibly turn it into quick cash) in the "alternative medicine" business:

1) Get a mainstream medical degree.
2) Put the "Dr." in front of your name.
3) Completely disregard, trash, and ignore all you learned in medical school.
4) Come out with a controversial "medical" statement against a proven mainstream practice (e.g. vaccines, etc.)
5) Create  your own website, newsletter, products, etc.
6) Let the cash roll in... or if you don't care for cash, you can at least enjoy the limelight (among cult-members).  

Sadly very true. It's unfortunate that the cult members are often misinformed and suffer the consequences.