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[animatic]

otherstuff1957, on 2009-11-19 19:03:10, said:

There are all kinds of interesting quotes in that article!:

webfact, on 2009-11-19 18:32:26, said:

Jakrapob admits meeting Thaksin in Cambodia
By The Nation


Jakrapob said the struggle to bring down the present administration would continue, but the opponents would no longer rely on conventional forms of protest.

Different tactics would be used to confront the government, including possible clandestine subversion or armed attacks,

"I am not certain whether democracy would resume after the downfall of the government," he said.


An intelligence source said he is taking refuge in Burma.


-- The Nation 2009/11/19

I think we can expect a twitter from Thaksin saying that virtually everything in this article is a misquote!

Certainly sedition is not a stretch as lable for these remarks.
Tlak like this in a foreign land, one which is holding a Thai national
as essentially hostage on a spurious charge, would certainly not be acting in the best interests of thais.
He may imagine in his head he is doing the right thing,
doesn't mean he can't be labeled 'traitor to his homeland' pretty easily.

[jayboy]

KireB, on 2009-11-22 05:06:33, said:

Well I guess most of us must be blind and idiots in believing the typical reactionary and dishonest rubbish

If the cap fits....However you have no more right than I do do to speak for "most of us"

The PAD movement's bullying and violence is a matter of record, and set the tone for street politics.For a time there was an active effort on the yellows to court martyrdom through provocative acts.I have never incidentally excused the red acts of violence.

Overall - and both sides tend to be uncomfortable with this - the striking aspect given the bitterness of the division is actually how little violence there has been.I say striking because its relative absence doesn't fit in with the myth building (of which the rather low key Songkran riot is a prime example).

[rixalex]

jayboy, on 2009-11-22 11:38:23, said:

of which the rather low key Songkran riot is a prime example

Seems that your low key is my mayhem and havoc.

[animatic]

zzaa09, on 2009-11-19 23:08:44, said:

LaoPo, on 2009-11-19 23:58:46, said:

MaiChai, on 2009-11-19 15:48:51, said:

Don't Taksin and co realise the military will never let them get in power again? Its just not an option. I can't believe they think they can win against the military.

I've always been under the impression that there were 2 kinds of military....red and yellow? One of them more dormant than the other, depending on the present situation and government in power...

True or not true ?

LaoPo

Regardless.....it's sad that we subconsciously {subliminally} accepted, even understand, the reference to a steadfast system of militarism entrenched within political and civil infrastructures.

Only two kinds of military? Hardly.
There are dozens of factions, some that change allegiances with the wind,
others like the 'graduate cadet class year' allegiances that rarely change for some reason.

And then there are also the strict allegiances yo  to your commanding officers.
Where the officers go , so go the men.

But to call it either red or yellow is a very shallow analysis.
Or even red, yellow, blue; just a superficial overlay.
And this doesn't even get into graft driven allegiances

What is clear is that Thaskin as trying to gain the upper hand in the military and they stopped that.
Another thing is the modern military, for good or ill,  has been acting as a relief valve as politicians
Seem to NOT be able to get the jobs done and not rape the country in the process.
The implied threat of military intervention seems the only thing keeping some pols from
going the whole ten yards into total domination and evisceration of the country's coffers.

I think of it as an additional non-typical checks and balances mechanism.
Not a perfect one, but apparently still needed in some rather Thai fashion.


Do I approve of the military's domination? Not particularly, as with most things Thai,
there is no black and white westernized perfect answer. As if that even exists in the west.
There are inter-locking shades of gray cogs, all turning with or against each other.
The military is just one more piece in that over all puzzle.

Hand Thaksin back that 2 billion baht with his current, obvious mindset and it WILL be civil war,
and as noted above they are hardly likely to allow that to happen are they?
Hence the need for a suitably large body of force to keep order.
If politics were being fought in a civilized, orderly manner this would not be needed,
but that also is not the case.

Edited by animatic, 2009-11-22 11:56:53.

[IvanDobsky]

jayboy, on 2009-11-22 11:38:23, said:

KireB, on 2009-11-22 05:06:33, said:

Well I guess most of us must be blind and idiots in believing the typical reactionary and dishonest rubbish

If the cap fits....However you have no more right than I do do to speak for "most of us"

The PAD movement's bullying and violence is a matter of record, and set the tone for street politics.For a time there was an active effort on the yellows to court martyrdom through provocative acts.I have never incidentally excused the red acts of violence.

Overall - and both sides tend to be uncomfortable with this - the striking aspect given the bitterness of the division is actually how little violence there has been.I say striking because its relative absence doesn't fit in with the myth building (of which the rather low key Songkran riot is a prime example).

low key Songkran riots?

[animatic]

Publicus, on 2009-11-20 14:14:24, said:

Artisi, on 2009-11-20 09:50:41, said:

scorecard, on 2009-11-20 09:17:47, said:

[
Or chalerm then he could quickly organize for one of his sons to step into the role. Or even jatuporn or even a return of somchai. Wow, so much talent.

So much wasted talent, yes it's a shame they haven't been "wasted" like in "make my day"

Sad and pathetic to say, but Thailand hasn't produced an actual or transformative leader since............................................. since.............since..........................

Chulalongkorn.

[KireB]

jayboy, on 2009-11-22 12:38:23, said:

KireB, on 2009-11-22 05:06:33, said:

Well I guess most of us must be blind and idiots in believing the typical reactionary and dishonest rubbish

The PAD movement's bullying and violence is a matter of record, and set the tone for street politics.For a time there was an active effort on the yellows to court martyrdom through provocative acts.I have never incidentally excused the red acts of violence.

Overall - and both sides tend to be uncomfortable with this - the striking aspect given the bitterness of the division is actually how little violence there has been.I say striking because its relative absence doesn't fit in with the myth building (of which the rather low key Songkran riot is a prime example).

The world saw a bloodless coup with soldiers holding riffles and  getting flowers from girls, the world saw a airport seizure with ' Kum-Ba-Yah my Lord singing' grandmothers and children. The world also saw the Songkran Riots with red shirted idiots taking over armoured military vehicles, placing LPG tankers in residential areas and creating absolute mayhem in the streets of Bangkok. Low key? Yeah right, headlines everywhere in the world!

[animatic]

xminator, on 2009-11-20 13:42:46, said:

Over time the "red" faction of the millitary will get more numbers. Simply because the military statistically will recruit more people from the red powerbase. The powerbase that Thaksin built his rise on is still growing faster, just look at the demographics of thailand. Of course there is a chance that officers only get recruited from certain circles of society, but that is also a dual edged sword. Talent dont follow social status.

I dont see how the elite junta can keep to their absolute power without moving toward a less democratic and more oppressive society. Its a power change you see in any country with a rapid growing population.

But those increasing red numbers will not be in ANY leadership position for 10-15 years at least,
and by then the red movement will likely be a marginalized faction. Just another historical anomaly.
Thakwsi  will be a desgraced, displaced old man, and not be able to lead before these 'red recruits
ever become a viable force with in the military.

[jayboy]

IvanDobsky, on 2009-11-22 04:51:31, said:

jayboy, on 2009-11-22 11:38:23, said:

KireB, on 2009-11-22 05:06:33, said:

Well I guess most of us must be blind and idiots in believing the typical reactionary and dishonest rubbish

If the cap fits....However you have no more right than I do do to speak for "most of us"

The PAD movement's bullying and violence is a matter of record, and set the tone for street politics.For a time there was an active effort on the yellows to court martyrdom through provocative acts.I have never incidentally excused the red acts of violence.

Overall - and both sides tend to be uncomfortable with this - the striking aspect given the bitterness of the division is actually how little violence there has been.I say striking because its relative absence doesn't fit in with the myth building (of which the rather low key Songkran riot is a prime example).

low key Songkran riots?

By the standards of political street violence, yes..very.All credit to the law enforcement agencies involved.

[jayboy]

KireB, on 2009-11-22 05:11:51, said:

The world saw a bloodless coup with soldiers holding riffles and  getting flowers from girls, the world saw a airport seizure with ' Kum-Ba-Yah my Lord singing' grandmothers and children. The world also saw the Songkran Riots with red shirted idiots taking over armoured military vehicles, placing LPG tankers in residential areas and creating absolute mayhem in the streets of Bangkok. Low key? Yeah right, headlines everywhere in the world!

Priceless and beyond comment.Kum-Ba-Yah to you and all the rest who believe in fairies.

[rixalex]

jayboy, on 2009-11-22 12:17:49, said:

IvanDobsky, on 2009-11-22 04:51:31, said:

low key Songkran riots?

By the standards of political street violence, yes..very.

Could it have been worse? Yes.

Was it very low key? No. Don't be daft.

[justanothercybertosser]

KireB, on 2009-11-22 12:11:51, said:

jayboy, on 2009-11-22 12:38:23, said:

KireB, on 2009-11-22 05:06:33, said:

Well I guess most of us must be blind and idiots in believing the typical reactionary and dishonest rubbish

The PAD movement's bullying and violence is a matter of record, and set the tone for street politics.For a time there was an active effort on the yellows to court martyrdom through provocative acts.I have never incidentally excused the red acts of violence.

Overall - and both sides tend to be uncomfortable with this - the striking aspect given the bitterness of the division is actually how little violence there has been.I say striking because its relative absence doesn't fit in with the myth building (of which the rather low key Songkran riot is a prime example).

The world saw a bloodless coup with soldiers holding riffles and  getting flowers from girls, the world saw a airport seizure with ' Kum-Ba-Yah my Lord singing' grandmothers and children. The world also saw the Songkran Riots with red shirted idiots taking over armoured military vehicles, placing LPG tankers in residential areas and creating absolute mayhem in the streets of Bangkok. Low key? Yeah right, headlines everywhere in the world!

The world has also seen PAD guards during the airport occupation shooting at Red Shirts in Vibhavadi Soi 3. That clip was actually played many times during that time in major networks such as CNN and BBC.

And yes, compared to what could have happened, and has happened in Thailand's past, the Songkran riots were "low key". This might not be so the next time. There is an explosive mix of angry Red Shirts, angry PAD (read their extremely nationalist statements here: http://www.prachatai...glish/node/1495 ), and an increasingly helpless government.

Every side here avoids to take the steps towards a peaceful resolution.

[jif]

Sorry to interrupt, but if I may be allowed to return to the topic of the thread for a moment, I never expected General Panlop Pinmanee to be the voice of reason within the PTP, but his condemnation this morning of the upcoming Red Shirt rally is noteworthy. The inappropriateness of their timing is staggering.

Edited by jif, 2009-11-22 14:05:11.

[baht&sold]

jif, on 2009-11-22 13:48:26, said:

Sorry to interrupt, but if I may be allowed to return to the topic of the thread for a moment, I never expected General Panlop Pinmanee to be the voice of reason within the PTP, but his condemnation this morning of the upcoming Red Shirt rally is noteworthy. The inappropriateness of their timing is staggering.

Might add to the above, Mr Thaksin appears to be coming primarily to 'recoup' his frozen approx 2 billion USD before time runs out (court decision looms next month). Also to replenish dwindling offshore bank accounts and to once again place 'team cronies' in every branch of Govt, Military and Police in hoped for return to autocratic 'rule' without checks or balances.

This all has nothing whatsoever to do with democracy, assisting the poor, or helping Thailand. Quite the opposite.

Auspicious birthdays, frail fathers, and high season all squarely pale in the face of Mr Thaksin's self-significance, desire for revenge, megalomaniacal lust and pure greed.

[rixalex]

justanothercybertosser, on 2009-11-22 12:55:45, said:

And yes, compared to what could have happened, and has happened in Thailand's past, the Songkran riots were "low key".

Funny isn't it? The same people who argued tooth and nail than people sitting at an airport was an act of terrorism, now describe people running amock on the streets of Bangkok, hijacking buses, threatening to blow up tankers, attacking the Prime Minister's car, etc, etc, as being low key, purely on the basis that it could have been worse.

[Publicus]

jif, on 2009-11-22 14:48:26, said:

Sorry to interrupt, but if I may be allowed to return to the topic of the thread for a moment, I never expected General Panlop Pinmanee to be the voice of reason within the PTP, but his condemnation this morning of the upcoming Red Shirt rally is noteworthy. The inappropriateness of their timing is staggering.

Indeed, the inappropriateness is both brazenly deliberate and astounding, the worst imaginable indication of their intents and purposes.

[frodo]

rixalex, on 2009-11-22 14:31:04, said:

justanothercybertosser, on 2009-11-22 12:55:45, said:

And yes, compared to what could have happened, and has happened in Thailand's past, the Songkran riots were "low key".

Funny isn't it? The same people who argued tooth and nail than people sitting at an airport was an act of terrorism, now describe people running amock on the streets of Bangkok, hijacking buses, threatening to blow up tankers, attacking the Prime Minister's car, etc, etc, as being low key, purely on the basis that it could have been worse.

So low key that even the criminal fugitive got on CNN during that time and blathered to the world over and over that many people died and were loaded onto trucks. Thankfully, his death wish to Thailand didn't come true. Nonetheless, this was not low key.

[jayboy]

rixalex, on 2009-11-22 07:31:04, said:

justanothercybertosser, on 2009-11-22 12:55:45, said:

And yes, compared to what could have happened, and has happened in Thailand's past, the Songkran riots were "low key".

Funny isn't it? The same people who argued tooth and nail than people sitting at an airport was an act of terrorism, now describe people running amock on the streets of Bangkok, hijacking buses, threatening to blow up tankers, attacking the Prime Minister's car, etc, etc, as being low key, purely on the basis that it could have been worse.

It's a fair point.I think however the distinction is that the yellow acts of violence culminating in the airport seizure were openly supported by the ruling elite, the army and their political stooges.The events of Songkran were disruptive to city life and in my view misguided but in the measure of these things not particularly violent.A mythology of crazed red revolutionaries crashing LPG tankers into city buildings is insisted on by some  - but the reality is that throughout the last few years of political division the level of violence has been tiny.I would have thought that was something Thais could be proud of.

As far as international perception is concerned the seizure of the airports and the spinelessness of the authorities is what lingers, not the Songkran riots.

[KireB]

justanothercybertosser, on 2009-11-22 13:55:45, said:

The world has also seen PAD guards during the airport occupation shooting at Red Shirts in Vibhavadi Soi 3. That clip was actually played many times during that time in major networks such as CNN and BBC.

The shooting at Vibhavadi was before the airport debacle and happened because a group of sponsored motorcyle taxi morons attacked them!
Ths all happened during the time that the yellow rallies were attacked (at night) by grenade launchers!

[hammered]

jif, on 2009-11-22 13:48:26, said:

Sorry to interrupt, but if I may be allowed to return to the topic of the thread for a moment, I never expected General Panlop Pinmanee to be the voice of reason within the PTP, but his condemnation this morning of the upcoming Red Shirt rally is noteworthy. The inappropriateness of their timing is staggering.

I dont doubt there are very real differences over tactics on the red side. I also dont doubt someone like Gen. Panlop would recognize the chance of violence whenever you put a large number of people in a highly charged and maybe hate fueled rally and that violence stemming from it may well negatively impact on that side. I am also sure Gen. Panlop will have some idea of the level of sympathy or lack of it in the army. That is a real wildcard and one that we cannot even guess at, but to whihc he is probably aware. However, it is possible to guess that different timing may see a greater sympathy.

Of course it is always possible that Gen. Panlop is just covering his butt with the statement too though lets assume he isnt.

Lets also hope calmer heads prevail.

[hammered]

jayboy, on 2009-11-22 15:28:56, said:

rixalex, on 2009-11-22 07:31:04, said:

justanothercybertosser, on 2009-11-22 12:55:45, said:

And yes, compared to what could have happened, and has happened in Thailand's past, the Songkran riots were "low key".

Funny isn't it? The same people who argued tooth and nail than people sitting at an airport was an act of terrorism, now describe people running amock on the streets of Bangkok, hijacking buses, threatening to blow up tankers, attacking the Prime Minister's car, etc, etc, as being low key, purely on the basis that it could have been worse.

It's a fair point.I think however the distinction is that the yellow acts of violence culminating in the airport seizure were openly supported by the ruling elite, the army and their political stooges.The events of Songkran were disruptive to city life and in my view misguided but in the measure of these things not particularly violent.A mythology of crazed red revolutionaries crashing LPG tankers into city buildings is insisted on by some  - but the reality is that throughout the last few years of political division the level of violence has been tiny.I would have thought that was something Thais could be proud of.

As far as international perception is concerned the seizure of the airports and the spinelessness of the authorities is what lingers, not the Songkran riots.

Threatening to explode an LPG tanker in a residential area is terrorism. It doesnt have to be compared to what anyone else did any other time, and ZI am not going to get into the yellows and their acts, which I also condemn, as that is totally irrelvent to defining this act. It is irrelvent what the poltical motivation of those carrying out or who backed them were. That that incident wasnt worse is pretty much down to luck as anything else. It cannot be apologised away by saying their poltical motivations are good. This wasnt an attack on the elite, the military, the government or some symbol of their power but an attack on poor peoplke in a residentiual area with a diverse mix of political opinions getting on with their lives and trying to enjoy a bit of time off of work. This act does not hit into any hypothesis of ongoing class struggle or struggle against oppression. It could be argued that many other acts by the reds could be viewed in this way.

I do agree that the level of death has been low to date and hopefully it remain so although I think this unlikely and some openly postulate that the situation wont be resolved until some/much bloodletting has occurred.

[animatic]

justanothercybertosser, on 2009-11-22 12:55:45, said:

KireB, on 2009-11-22 12:11:51, said:

jayboy, on 2009-11-22 12:38:23, said:

KireB, on 2009-11-22 05:06:33, said:

Well I guess most of us must be blind and idiots in believing the typical reactionary and dishonest rubbish

The PAD movement's bullying and violence is a matter of record, and set the tone for street politics.For a time there was an active effort on the yellows to court martyrdom through provocative acts.I have never incidentally excused the red acts of violence.

Overall - and both sides tend to be uncomfortable with this - the striking aspect given the bitterness of the division is actually how little violence there has been.I say striking because its relative absence doesn't fit in with the myth building (of which the rather low key Songkran riot is a prime example).

The world saw a bloodless coup with soldiers holding riffles and  getting flowers from girls, the world saw a airport seizure with ' Kum-Ba-Yah my Lord singing' grandmothers and children. The world also saw the Songkran Riots with red shirted idiots taking over armoured military vehicles, placing LPG tankers in residential areas and creating absolute mayhem in the streets of Bangkok. Low key? Yeah right, headlines everywhere in the world!

The world has also seen PAD guards during the airport occupation shooting at Red Shirts in Vibhavadi Soi 3. That clip was actually played many times during that time in major networks such as CNN and BBC.

And yes, compared to what could have happened, and has happened in Thailand's past, the Songkran riots were "low key". This might not be so the next time. There is an explosive mix of angry Red Shirts, angry PAD (read their extremely nationalist statements here: http://www.prachatai...glish/node/1495 ), and an increasingly helpless government.

Every side here avoids to take the steps towards a peaceful resolution.

Sorry, your memory is bad,
but that Soi 3 shooting incident was BEFORE the Airport was taken over.
And the shooting was clearly because dozens of red taxi tdrivers were converging on the PAD truck.
It is shown as so in extended versions of this video clip.
After the bombing nightly of the PAD at gov house these guys in the truck
as reasonable reason to expect a bomb could be coming their way.

I disagree they should have been shooting,
but it in light of ALL video shot seems defensive,
and with dozens of armed targets around them,
also clear in the extened video, not one person was killed.

I am not a PAD member nor particularly a fan, I agree on certain PAD points only,
just as I agree on certain redshirt points also.
But also don't like to see this repeated mis-statement of facts

The violence will come when it suits Thaksin's purposes.
Sad state of affairs that.

[rixalex]

You can't speak for others...

jayboy, on 2009-11-22 11:38:23, said:

However you have no more right than I do do to speak for "most of us"

...but you can speak for the international community? I'm impressed.

jayboy, on 2009-11-22 15:28:56, said:

As far as international perception is concerned the seizure of the airports and the spinelessness of the authorities is what lingers, not the Songkran riots.

[jayboy]

rixalex, on 2009-11-22 10:36:04, said:

You can't speak for others...

jayboy, on 2009-11-22 11:38:23, said:

However you have no more right than I do do to speak for "most of us"

...but you can speak for the international community? I'm impressed.

jayboy, on 2009-11-22 15:28:56, said:

As far as international perception is concerned the seizure of the airports and the spinelessness of the authorities is what lingers, not the Songkran riots.

Non sequitur I'm afraid on your part.

Anyway the proof is simple.Go to the US, Europe, Australia, Japan and talk without prompting to anyone without a particular connection to Thailand.Ask them a propos Thailand's political difficulties what particular incident they recall over the last year or so.It doesn't take a genius to work out it would be the closing down of the country through illegal seizure of the airport.

[rixalex]

jayboy, on 2009-11-22 16:44:34, said:

Non sequitur I'm afraid on your part.

Is the Latin really necessary? I find it a little pompous when used seemingly for appearances, don't you?

jayboy, on 2009-11-22 16:44:34, said:

Anyway the proof is simple.Go to the US, Europe, Australia, Japan and talk without prompting to anyone without a particular connection to Thailand.Ask them a propos Thailand's political difficulties what particular incident they recall over the last year or so.It doesn't take a genius to work out it would be the closing down of the country through illegal seizure of the airport.

Seems you have an unusual idea of what constitutes proof Jayboy.