157 replies to this topic
Posted 2009-11-20 03:49:11
 ozsamurai, on 2009-11-20 03:09:18, said:
OP post in 2006
I agree - My pension, (beginning next year,) will be approx 24K - the rest of my income is investment- based, so will be variable. 400K deposit isn't a problem but (hopefully) it can be in CD's or an interest-bearing account - ? Seems like a lot of "hoops" but, as always, we all pay the price for the minority.
no sympathy here mate
oz
I don't take your meaning. 24K baht income? That's peanuts. 400K in bank. Also peanuts. Investment income? He didn't state his assets so you just assume he is loaded. Interesting.
Edited by Jingthing, 2009-11-20 03:49:35.
Posted 2009-11-20 03:57:08
Jingthing, on 2009-11-20 03:49:11, said: ozsamurai, on 2009-11-20 03:09:18, said: OP post in 2006
I agree - My pension, (beginning next year,) will be approx 24K - the rest of my income is investment- based, so will be variable. 400K deposit isn't a problem but (hopefully) it can be in CD's or an interest-bearing account - ? Seems like a lot of "hoops" but, as always, we all pay the price for the minority.
no sympathy here mate
oz
I don't take your meaning. 24K baht income? That's peanuts. 400K in bank. Also peanuts. Investment income? He didn't state his assets so you just assume he is loaded. Interesting.
If its baht he deserves our sympathy.
But hang on....who exactly does he expect to support his child?
Posted 2009-11-20 05:07:40
smokie36, on 2009-11-19 14:57:08, said: If its baht he deserves our sympathy.
But hang on....who exactly does he expect to support his child?
I'd assume that's US dollars. 24k baht would be $60/month...a ludicrous figure. As far as assuming that he has some money, people without money generally don't talk about investment income (they'd have a savings account and those effectively aren't paying interest these days).
I'd be curious what the ages of the child & mother are, given that he's retirement age. Then again, police and military can retire after 20 years (in their late 30's).
Edited by malomker, 2009-11-20 05:09:44.
Posted 2009-11-20 05:20:37
The issue of child support in the UK is pursed with relentless vigour. The CSA handle the case, if the mother elects or has been or is receipt of state benefits. The 'Father' who is mean tested pays 25% (after tax) of his salary for 1st child and I believe something like additional 15% of salary for next and additional children.
The arrears attract interest plus court expenses. To flee the UK owing large unpaid CSA payments, will I see leading to action by UK Embassies similar to the OP once it becomes law.
Whilst the CSA have not got there act together, if you fall under there gaze, you'll find that your only action is to return to the UK then work the outstanding balance off before a Passport is re-issued.
An emotive subject, this is the way it's going....... 
Posted 2009-11-20 05:27:46
One of the huge problems with the American system is the apportionment of alimony (spousal support) vs. child support. They were making big money at one time, but no longer make such money.
Many men have paid the child support for many years, but because of the malice or greed of the ex-wife have been tripped up on the alimony part.
These ex-wives, even if remarried and now rich, go to court to put the screws to their ex husbands, and then can invoke the draconian provisions as we've seen here where a passport is confiscated and a man is left in Thailand without any right to remain or go anywhere.
This penalty is truly worse than convicted felons. These are merely allegations and claims filed by the ex-wife. They have not been proved in any court of law.
A dam_n shame.
Edited by keemapoot, 2009-11-20 05:36:27.
Posted 2009-11-20 05:36:45
malomker, on 2009-11-20 05:07:40, said: smokie36, on 2009-11-19 14:57:08, said: If its baht he deserves our sympathy.
But hang on....who exactly does he expect to support his child?
I'd assume that's US dollars. 24k baht would be $60/month...a ludicrous figure. As far as assuming that he has some money, people without money generally don't talk about investment income (they'd have a savings account and those effectively aren't paying interest these days).
I'd be curious what the ages of the child & mother are, given that he's retirement age. Then again, police and military can retire after 20 years (in their late 30's).
Maybe he meant 24k baht per month? About 725 dollars. Not unusual for a social security check. The way that text was included, with the 400k Thai bank account mentioned which IS baht, why would a person change currencies. Of course 24k dollars per year is not wealthy either but its very good for Thailand. It is ludicrous to assume everyone with investment income is wealthy. You have to know the asset base, what the investments are, whether the value went up or down, etc. to make any such determination.
Edited by Jingthing, 2009-11-20 05:38:45.
Posted 2009-11-20 06:19:18
Chang_paarp, on 2009-11-19 21:35:44, said: I would pack a smallish bag, and go to the embassy and politely ask for your passport back.
When refused point out that to leave the embassy property you will be in breach of Thai law by not having valid travel documents and visa or exemption to stay. Point out they cannot force you to break the law.
Sit quietly in a corner and watch what happens. (Offer to arrange a tent if they have no accommodation.) I would recommend also having a phone well charged with credit so you can ring your Thai and US lawyer as well as your local congressman and senator.
Unfortunately they may chose to summons the immigration police with this stand.
I'm sure there are "accommodations" at the embassy!
This matter needed to be resolved before "retirement" and leaving the States. I'm sure that was understood.
Posted 2009-11-20 06:21:53
F1fanatic, on 2009-11-19 12:48:46, said: If you have a child here (as anywhere) you need to pay to support it.
Why do I get the impression you've been stupid and are now trying to run away from supporting YOUR child?
YOU married your former wife and have only recently realised her "unbridled greed". More fool you. You still need to look after your child.
Sorry, no sympathy whatsoever.
No need to insult the OP who is suffering from gender-racism as it is common in many Western countries.
"Child support" is actually "woman support". As the mother alone decides what will happen with the money. In rare cases this money actually goes to the child. More often it finances a affluent life style.
I feel with the OP and hope you get the things settled. Ignore the insults.
Posted 2009-11-20 08:12:51
"quote"
I too, find this a bit unusual. An American diplomatic service involving itself into a personal and legal Thai domestic issue. A truely criminal offence could be justified, but a domestic squabble? And then retaining ones passport...?? Odd. 
[/quote]
Not odd at all really.
A court order would have been
in place ordering that the passport
be confiscated. The embassy/consulate
would not have had the option.
Regards
Will
Posted 2009-11-20 08:20:19
What does the child's requirements have to do with the OP's 'retirement' status or decision to live in Thailand? Didn't any of you posters grow up in a broken home? One in which there wasn't enough to go around? I sure hope the OP has been 'snipped'! Maybe the embassy ought to do THAT for him as well, given he doesn't appear to be able to think things through for himself!
Posted 2009-11-20 09:03:54
Op,
Same thing happened to an acquaintance here in Vietnam about 3 years ago.
His passport was not confiscated, but they refused to issue a new one at time of renewal.
They did offer him a letter, good for a one way return trip to the US.
He stayed for about three weeks, and didn't want to go, but was eventually forced to accept the letter by the Vietnamese authorities who were made aware of the situation, and told him he could not stay without a valid passport.
*You better check into this before you go home. Passport revocation is not the first step. You likely have an arrest warant for you at home as well.
This guy knew he had a warrant, so his ticket was to Florida, but he reamained in SFO upon entering. From there he negotiated the terms of repayment, and had the arrest warrant lifted.
He worked in the US doing construction until he paid off the past due, and was back in Vietnam about 2 years later.
Unfortunately, unless you have a lawyer, and money to pay, affraid you will be headed home.
Good luck with things.
Posted 2009-11-20 09:29:06
I am having a good laugh on this, since a great deal of support for U.S. child support enforcement actions comes from "conservative" organizations.
Here is the California Republican Party's published position on Families & Children
- Families are the cornerstone of our culture. (Sep 2004)
- Support abstinence and fatherhood. (Aug 2000)
- Reduce child welfare caseloads & encourage adoption. (Aug 2000)
Golly gee. How do they propose reducing child welfare caseloads? Through the enforcement of child support orders. Hello, earth to people that call this a "liberal" conspiracy. Although many conservative evangelical groups have come out as strong supporters of child support enforcement orders, it is a position supported by groups that cut across all political positions, ethnic groups and socio-economic classes. Every major public interest group has supported the suspension of licenses, passports and other services.
Taxpayers like me are fed up of having to pay because selfish men & women bugger off abandoning their obligations. Be a man and deal with the responsibilities that come from fathering a child.
Nice tie in to the arguments that were put up on the thread about the increase in Thai teen pregnancies where people were claiming it was a financial opportunity for women. Yea, right. When you have to worry about keeping a roof over a kid's head or putting food on the table, it's a real money maker.
Posted 2009-11-20 10:35:19
Reading topics like this restrains me from raising a family.
Posted 2009-11-20 11:05:11
F1fanatic, on 2009-11-19 20:06:00, said: Jingthing, on 2009-11-19 20:02:32, said: We don't know the details of the case. You can't legally exist in Thailand without a passport, so yes, it does relate to Thailand. Interestingly, sympathy for a man abused by heavy handed government power is somewhat that I think both the left wingers like me AND the teabag lovers can find in common.
Nope. He needs to look after his kid.
lopburi3, on 2009-11-19 20:16:04, said: The readers are trying to make this a child in Thailand issue (post 11 & 15) - that does not appear to be the case. That is what I mean with the non Thailand comment.
And I believe the UK has the same laws on there books now - deadbeats are no longer free to avoid legal obligations. So this is not just a US issue.
The fact of the matter is that is is a disgrace that the courts has come to this. What should be a civil case has through the perversion of the justice system in some states gone rogue and will now withhold the passport of a person over claims of outstanding payments of something that could fully well be the result of in first turn an extremely biased and slanted process, as divorce-cases seemingly are becoming in more states than California...
The government has no right to withhold the passport over civil matters. If it did, why not do it in ALL cases? Fact is that they wont and never will.
Clear typical gender biased nonsense.
Posted 2009-11-20 11:33:42
geriatrickid, on 2009-11-20 09:29:06, said: Taxpayers like me are fed up of having to pay because selfish men & women bugger off abandoning their obligations. Be a man and deal with the responsibilities that come from fathering a child.
That is why there shouldn't be any tax-money used for it in the first place...
Posted 2009-11-20 11:57:44
Wow! Some real diatribes on both sides here. In the USA holding the passport for ransom is simply a part of the Deadbeat Dad enforcement system. The OP can try to convince us that he is a victim here but much has gone on over a long period of time to get him to this point. Simply moving to Thailand does not give the OP immunity from responsibility. In truth he probably owes a considerable sum of back child support and has for a long time.
The ball is in the OP court. He will be allowed travel to the US to plead his case and negotiate a settlement compromise. If he cannot pay a payment schedule will be agreed to and signed. the OP may have to get a job or sell something to begin to pay up. Simply erasing the whole thing from one's mind will not work. After he gets his passport back he is free to travel to the Land of Smiles and resume his life's choices. This problem cannot be fixed in one day and since it has reached the point when he was being sought in a national computer base all other avenues to collect from a Deadbeat Dad had been exhausted. The system works.
Posted 2009-11-20 11:58:25
geriatrickid, on 2009-11-20 09:29:06, said: I am having a good laugh on this, since a great deal of support for U.S. child support enforcement actions comes from "conservative" organizations.
Here is the California Republican Party's published position on Families & Children
- Families are the cornerstone of our culture. (Sep 2004)
- Support abstinence and fatherhood. (Aug 2000)
- Reduce child welfare caseloads & encourage adoption. (Aug 2000)
Golly gee. How do they propose reducing child welfare caseloads? Through the enforcement of child support orders. Hello, earth to people that call this a "liberal" conspiracy. Although many conservative evangelical groups have come out as strong supporters of child support enforcement orders, it is a position supported by groups that cut across all political positions, ethnic groups and socio-economic classes. Every major public interest group has supported the suspension of licenses, passports and other services.
Taxpayers like me are fed up of having to pay because selfish men & women bugger off abandoning their obligations. Be a man and deal with the responsibilities that come from fathering a child.
Nice tie in to the arguments that were put up on the thread about the increase in Thai teen pregnancies where people were claiming it was a financial opportunity for women. Yea, right. When you have to worry about keeping a roof over a kid's head or putting food on the table, it's a real money maker.
After reading 3 pages of mostly bull shite I am having a good laugh too. Being a tax payer myself, i am more fed up with my tax dollars going to big corporate businesses, and pork barrels but this is another issue in itself.
Now, back on topic. I totally agree that the OP is entitled to an emergency passport for travel and this should be honored as other posters have stated his status may be technically illegal at this point. Now with that out of the way, The OP has a financial responsibility to a child that he fathered in the States. If he was living in the States and working, his paycheck would be garnished and child support deducted, so this would not even be an issue.
Child support supposed to go to the child and the OP never mentioned anything about spousal support, so we need to assume at this point that he has skirted his obligation to his child for a long time while living in Thailand. It is also fair to assume that if the OP is living 12,500 miles away from his home country, he can both honor his responsibilities back home as well as here. If he is on a fixed income and cannot meet his responsibilities 12,500 miles away, then he really has no business being here. I think the legal term is called abandonment, but i am no lawyer.
Go home and get your shite sorted out. No, the US is not Thailand, so no you cannot get a girl pregnant, have a baby, decide that things are not working out with you and mom, so therefore it is no longer your obligation to support your child, start a new live somewhere else and leave the financial burden on everyone one else (in this case the tax payer). No sympathy her either!
Posted 2009-11-20 12:06:26
The lesson here is that you cannot run away to Thailand to avoid paying child support. This exact thing happened to a friend of mine. In his case he wasn't guilty. He wrote his wife a check for the last six months that he owed because he was coming here to retire. The embassy gave him the proper paperwork to leave the country at the same time that they confiscated his passport. He was NOT stranded here.
If not for his daughter in the US, the one he was paying the support for, helping him, he would have no choice but to return to the US to straighten it out. His ex-wife wasn't about to try to help him. His ex-wife was pleased and thought it was funny.
It still cost him a bundle to straighten it out. There were many long phone calls from here to the US and an expensive US lawyer who ended up doing nothing.
Posted 2009-11-20 12:18:17
No sympathy here either. You played your part in bringing "your" child into the world, and shame on you for trying to find a way to continue not supporting it. It makes me so very thankful that i had a good father that actually took care of his responsibilities, no matter how tough the times got. Get the temporary travel documents, get yourself home and look after YOUR kid....surely the courts would work with you to sort something out in light of your change in income...
#70
MrRichard2009
Posted 2009-11-20 12:22:47
As Long as you don't straighten it out you will be liable for the amount, until the Judge changes it, better get it taken care of asap. They have no mercy when it comes to child support. Should they ?
Posted 2009-11-20 12:25:06
This is a slippery slope. Today child support issues. Tomorrow, an old traffic ticket, an IRS conflict, or some other minor legal confusion back home that you may or may not be guilty of. On this issue, I am dragging out a teabag, this is a case where government is going too far. We like to think we are a free country. Freedom to travel and live abroad is one of those freedoms.
Also remember, the OP was only adding pages.
Those being cheerleaders for draconian passport confiscations, don't come cryin' to us when it happens to you!
Edited by Jingthing, 2009-11-20 12:31:42.
Posted 2009-11-20 12:32:36
Several years ago, one of my employees in Saudi submitted his passport to the Riyadh US Embassy for new pages. The Embassy contacted me advising he was in arrears with his child support in the US and they would not release his passport until such time as the arrears had been paid.
The employee sent nearly $7,000 to his sister who took it to the courts in Pennsylvania. The courts then issued documents saying the employee was in compliance with his child support requirements and his passport was returned to the company for safekeeping.
The Embassy further told me if he failed to pay they would only provide him with a single time travel document to the US, and nowhere else. We had other forms of identification so his need to carry a passport was not there. I would think the BKK Embassy would give the OP some form of identification or letter attesting to the fact they are holding his passport if he requests one.
By the way, the act of Congress that requires this action on the part of the State Department was sponsored in the Senate by Senator Bill Bradley, a Democrat.
The law is known as The Bradley Amendment and was passed in 1986.
Posted 2009-11-20 12:37:56
In case you haven't realized this, women rule the game back in USA. This law has been in effect for some time now. Quite switch from Thailand where most men skate off "scott free" after ditching a woman with their baby.
Posted 2009-11-20 12:45:22
I am a democrat but not surprised this was started by a democrat. Bradley, Schmadley , sometimes these "do gooders" do go too far.
Edited by Jingthing, 2009-11-20 12:45:59.
Posted 2009-11-20 12:47:05
Title 22, Volume 1, Parts 1 to 299]
[Revised as of April 1, 1999]
From the U.S. Government Printing Office via GPO Access
[CITE: 22CFR51.70]
[Page 252]
TITLE 22--FOREIGN RELATIONS
CHAPTER I--DEPARTMENT OF STATE
PART 51--PASSPORTS--Table of Contents
Subpart E--Limitation on Issuance or Extension of Passports
Sec. 51.70 Denial of passports.
(a) A passport, except for direct return to the United States, shall not be issued in any case in which the Secretary of State determines or is informed by competent authority that:
(1) The applicant is the subject of an outstanding Federal warrant of arrest for a felony, including a warrant issued under the Federal Fugitive Felon Act (18 U.S.C. 1073); or
(2) The applicant is subject to a criminal court order, condition of probation, or condition of parole, any of which forbids departure from the United States and the violation of which could result in the issuance of a Federal warrant of arrest, including a warrant issued under the Federal Fugitive Felon Act; or
(3) The applicant is subject to a court order committing him or her to a mental institution; or
(4) The applicant is the subject of a request for extradition or provisional arrest for extradition which has been presented to the government of a foreign country; or
(5) The applicant is the subject of a subpoena issued pursuant to section 1783 of title 28, United States Code, in a matter involving Federal prosecution for, or grand jury investigation of, a felony; or
(6) The applicant has not repaid a loan received from the United States as prescribed under Secs. 71.10 and 71.11 of this chapter; or
(7) The applicant is in default on a loan received from the United States to effectuate his or her return from a foreign country in the course of travel abroad; or
(8) The applicant has been certified by the Secretary of Health and Human Services as notified by a State agency under 42 U.S.C. 652(k) to be in arrears of child support in an amount exceeding $5,000.00. (note: I think this was reduced to $2,500.)
[Code of Federal Regulations]
[Title 22, Volume 1]
[Revised as of April 1, 2005]
From the U.S. Government Printing Office via GPO Access
[CITE: 22CFR51.75]
[Page 265-266]
TITLE 22--FOREIGN RELATIONS
CHAPTER I--DEPARTMENT OF STATE
PART 51_PASSPORTS--Table of Contents
Subpart E_Limitation on Issuance or Extension of Passports
Sec. 51.75 Notification of denial or withdrawal of passport.
Any person whose application for issuance of a passport has been denied, or who has otherwise been the subject of an adverse action taken on an individual basis with respect to his or her right to receive or use a passport shall be entitled to notification in writing of the adverse action. The notification shall set forth the specific reasons for the adverse action and the procedures
[[Page 266]]
for review available under Sec. Sec. 51.81 through 51.105.
(22 U.S.C. 2658 and 3926)
[33 FR 12043, Aug. 24, 1968, as amended at 49 FR 16989, Apr. 23, 1984]
Dept. of HHS Passport Denial Service
The Passport Denial Program, which is part of the Federal Offset Program, is designed to help states enforce delinquent child support obligations. Under the program, noncustodial parents certified by a state as having arrearages exceeding $2,500 are submitted by the Federal Office of Child Support Enforcement (OCSE) to the Department of State (DoS), which denies them U.S. passports upon application or the use of a passport service. Noncustodial parents are not automatically removed from the Passport Denial Program even if their averages fall below the $2,500 threshold.
I have heard that there is now an IRS check and a (government-issued or backed)student loan check during passport renewals in the U.S.A., covered in 51.70 sec. 6. Mortgage defaults have also been rumored to be included.
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