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[geriatrickid]

caf, on 2009-11-30 07:56:59, said:

So, "you have an inherent ability to differentiate fact from fiction" good for you.

The reference to Clockwork Orange has been blown out of all proportion but the basic facts of the incident were reported as fully as was decent - though not on this site. Personally I think mentioing the film was a mistake but that does not change the facts.

And "the judicial system still functions on facts" - is that why the police routinely hold reconstructions which are then shown in court as if fact; and that the police as in this case too seem not too interested in establishinmg facts.

Thank you for acknowledging my superior abilities. They were honed at the student pub during my sejour in university.
Unfortunately, you still don't get it. The Daily Mail article was short on facts. As several people have pointed out, allegations are made but not substantiated. It is claimed that the UK embassy ignored the victims and the police dismissed the claims. Well, golly gee, who are these embassy and police personnel? When one calls the embassy with a claim like this, a file number and contact name is given. When a police report is filed there is a name of a contact police officer given. Why weren't these people approached, or named? Serious allegations are made and yet, nothing substantive is offered. Where are the witnesses? If the victims were carried out of a bar in a state of stupor surely someone saw this? Did Mr. Drummond go and verify the allegations as best he could? Most investigative journalists do go out to the location and attempt to make an assessment and to find witnesses. Had Mr. Drummond stuck to the facts and just the facts, I wouldn't be thinking that what me have here is a possible "balloon boy" caper. Sadly, we live in a world where people will stop at nothing to perpetrate scams and shams. It is incumbent upon journalists to treat allegations of rape in a non sensationalistic manner so that actual rape victims do not have to deal with suspicions raised by bogus claims.
Capiche?

[sunnymarky]

geriatrickid, on 2009-11-29 22:53:31, said:

Kitsch22, on 2009-11-29 02:42:29, said:

geriatrickid, on 2009-11-28 16:07:22, said:

Unfortunately, the way the information/claims are presented undercut the substance. It's hard to take seriously an article that leans heavily on sensationalistic hyperbole. As others have said, it seems the supporting information was left out. Maybe the story is true. If so, the victims have been done a disservice by turning this into a wild sex story.

When I see the mention of a Clockwork Orange all I can think of is a bunch of weird adolescents with repressed homosexual desires wearing mascara and dressed up in long johns. Sorry, but I am not very sophisticated so the reference didn't help me.

That simply bespeaks a hole in your education if you are British. The book is formally recognised as an important literary work. Sadly, there is a local determination that states of ignorance such as yours should be maintained.

No, it means that I have an inherent ability to differentiate fact from fiction. I fail to see the benefit of alluding to the novel in the article. My impression is that the reference brings in tawdry imagery that is a cheap tool to attract reader interest. Maybe, you consider me to be old fashioned or unhip, but I prefer my news to be delivered in an unbiased factual manner with the facts, as known, presented clearly. The use of metaphors, allusions, vivid imagery etc. detracts from the events. If someone wishes to colour the reporting, then the article should be in the opinion or editorials section.
What you fail to understand is that the judicial system still functions on the basis of fact, not juiced up stories. The end result here is that what may indeed be a very horrific assault is marginalized by the use of such grotesque imagery. The typical reader is going to think of a gang ala Clockwork Orange. What happens when there is no such gang? The claims of assault are then discounted because the embellishments render the story a piece of cheap prose. Sorry, but if these are victims, they they were owed the duty of a factual article. The pulp fiction could have followed once the original story was printed.

To use your words describing your posts "pulp fiction" from "behind a desk"

[caf]

geriatrickid, on 2009-11-30 11:49:02, said:

caf, on 2009-11-30 07:56:59, said:

So, "you have an inherent ability to differentiate fact from fiction" good for you.

The reference to Clockwork Orange has been blown out of all proportion but the basic facts of the incident were reported as fully as was decent - though not on this site. Personally I think mentioing the film was a mistake but that does not change the facts.

And "the judicial system still functions on facts" - is that why the police routinely hold reconstructions which are then shown in court as if fact; and that the police as in this case too seem not too interested in establishinmg facts.

Thank you for acknowledging my superior abilities. They were honed at the student pub during my sejour in university.
Unfortunately, you still don't get it. The Daily Mail article was short on facts. As several people have pointed out, allegations are made but not substantiated. It is claimed that the UK embassy ignored the victims and the police dismissed the claims. Well, golly gee, who are these embassy and police personnel? When one calls the embassy with a claim like this, a file number and contact name is given. When a police report is filed there is a name of a contact police officer given. Why weren't these people approached, or named? Serious allegations are made and yet, nothing substantive is offered. Where are the witnesses? If the victims were carried out of a bar in a state of stupor surely someone saw this? Did Mr. Drummond go and verify the allegations as best he could? Most investigative journalists do go out to the location and attempt to make an assessment and to find witnesses. Had Mr. Drummond stuck to the facts and just the facts, I wouldn't be thinking that what me have here is a possible "balloon boy" caper. Sadly, we live in a world where people will stop at nothing to perpetrate scams and shams. It is incumbent upon journalists to treat allegations of rape in a non sensationalistic manner so that actual rape victims do not have to deal with suspicions raised by bogus claims.
Capiche?

If you search the internet more widely most of your questions would be answered. "Capiche".

Glad you enjoyed your "sejour" in university. I'll take your word for it that you gained immensely from your university experience. Did you do much else other than being "honed at the student pub"

[Changnoi2]

Koh Chang, my Friends is very much Lawless. I heard first hand of these similar stories from a Farang Barman that stumbled apon and witnessed an attack like this. He knew of these men carrying out these attacks before, terrorizing girls and couples climbing in though the roofs of thier huts. He told me many an awful story, and I quite believed him.

KOH CHANG is a very very dangerous island, please enjoy the rest of Thailand, do not go to Koh Chang.

[farangfool]

geriatrickid, on 2009-11-30 12:49:02, said:

caf, on 2009-11-30 07:56:59, said:

So, "you have an inherent ability to differentiate fact from fiction" good for you.

The reference to Clockwork Orange has been blown out of all proportion but the basic facts of the incident were reported as fully as was decent - though not on this site. Personally I think mentioing the film was a mistake but that does not change the facts.

And "the judicial system still functions on facts" - is that why the police routinely hold reconstructions which are then shown in court as if fact; and that the police as in this case too seem not too interested in establishinmg facts.

Thank you for acknowledging my superior abilities. They were honed at the student pub during my sejour in university.
Unfortunately, you still don't get it. The Daily Mail article was short on facts. As several people have pointed out, allegations are made but not substantiated. It is claimed that the UK embassy ignored the victims and the police dismissed the claims. Well, golly gee, who are these embassy and police personnel? When one calls the embassy with a claim like this, a file number and contact name is given. When a police report is filed there is a name of a contact police officer given. Why weren't these people approached, or named? Serious allegations are made and yet, nothing substantive is offered. Where are the witnesses? If the victims were carried out of a bar in a state of stupor surely someone saw this? Did Mr. Drummond go and verify the allegations as best he could? Most investigative journalists do go out to the location and attempt to make an assessment and to find witnesses. Had Mr. Drummond stuck to the facts and just the facts, I wouldn't be thinking that what me have here is a possible "balloon boy" caper. Sadly, we live in a world where people will stop at nothing to perpetrate scams and shams. It is incumbent upon journalists to treat allegations of rape in a non sensationalistic manner so that actual rape victims do not have to deal with suspicions raised by bogus claims.
Capiche?

I did my advanced studies not in a pub and thus might be able to put your sophomoric spasms into perspective. You have zero credibility in defending your unfounded skepticism. By now substantial additional information has been posted on this and other outlets. Thus, your statements (that's perhaps too positive) do not add anything to the subject matter but only obscure. Why dont you stop spamming the thread and acknowledge that witnesses, Mr. Drummond and a colleague of his, have confirmed parts of the account? Why dont you praise them for the assistance rendered to the victims and their protecting the victims' privacy by not dragging them unnecessarily into the public? Why dont you acknowledge that appropriate papers have been filed or are in the process of being file in Thailand and in the UK?

You are void of first hand information, additional knowledge, first hand experience with such cases, apparently also a lack of legal information. So, please, stop this spamming, you made your point, it is invalid at best. As stated somewhere else, people should also be very careful about accusing crime victims of committing a crime in their own turn by filing false police reports. I think such accusations anyhow violate forum rules and belong to the trash bin or in the hands of a competent lawyer.

[geriatrickid]

farangfool, on 2009-11-30 16:24:11, said:

I did my advanced studies not in a pub and thus might be able to put your sophomoric spasms into perspective. You have zero credibility in defending your unfounded skepticism. By now substantial additional information has been posted on this and other outlets. Thus, your statements (that's perhaps too positive) do not add anything to the subject matter but only obscure. Why dont you stop spamming the thread and acknowledge that witnesses, Mr. Drummond and a colleague of his, have confirmed parts of the account? Why dont you praise them for the assistance rendered to the victims and their protecting the victims' privacy by not dragging them unnecessarily into the public? Why dont you acknowledge that appropriate papers have been filed or are in the process of being file in Thailand and in the UK?

You are void of first hand information, additional knowledge, first hand experience with such cases, apparently also a lack of legal information. So, please, stop this spamming, you made your point, it is invalid at best. As stated somewhere else, people should also be very careful about accusing crime victims of committing a crime in their own turn by filing false police reports. I think such accusations anyhow violate forum rules and belong to the trash bin or in the hands of a competent lawyer.

The best defense is a strong offense so off you go to dismiss me as a spammer and sophomoric. Fine, then let's deal with the statements that were presented as facts shall we?

- Why are you stating that I have dismissed the allegations as false and that I am suggesting the claimants have made a false report? That's a false statement. If you want to quote forum rules, please read them first and then follow them yourself. Not off to a good start are you?

. Substantial information has been presented? Please give me a hint. On Mr. Drummond's blog I see no additional information given such as the name of the representatives of the foreign office that dismissed the allegations. Nor do I see any reference to the police officials involved. Surely, this information is not "confidential"? If officials have acted inappropriately, why not say who they are? That's investigative journalism.

- Mr. Drummond's blog dismisses any questions of this possible crime as being the work of "retards" and "malcontents" Ok, however, I do not think it is unexpected that rational folk will question the reliability of stories that appear in the Daily Mail and that are coloured with sensationalistic filler. Today's Daily Mirror features photos of Emma Watson in a bikini, the headline "John Prscott Breaks Down as He Discovers Family Incest Secret", lots of show business gossip and another exciting headline "Father's agony as he is forced to choose between saving his wife or son from drowning". And you question why anyone of sound mind would ask for some facts? The Daily Mail is hardly the place to go for reliable information is it?

- I see now that Mr. Drummond is backing away from the use of the reference to a Clockwork Orange. Does this mean that he appreciates that the use of such a reference cast the entire story into doubt? Maybe the allegations are true. However, as I stated before, the victims were not done any favours in the way the story was reported.

- How has Mr. Drummond confirmed the events? How did his colleagues confirm the events? Will this information be forthcoming or am I supposed to just accept this based on the statement. Again, please tell me where I can find that information.

- Reference is made to a very short acting drug, dormicum. Ok. I take it a blood sample was taken from the subjects and a rape kit was used on both victims right? This information has been given to a reliable lab, right? It is possible to identify the presence of a sedative in a blood sample, even if that drug is rapidly metabolized. There will be detectable byproducts that at the very least will provide an indication of what was used. If a rape kit was not used, then a tissue swab/ sample was taken, right?

-Reference is made to a "doctor" stating that his exam revealed "rape". Unfortunately, consensual sexual activity between the two victims could also provide similar results, so there is going to have to be more than this to go with.

- So far, all I have seen are references to important known foreigners being implicated. Ok. If Mr. Drummond is that certain, how about naming names? Who are these mysterious rapists? If these rapists are known and are at large, shouldn't the community be warned?

The allegations may be true, but the manner in which the case has been reported, the sensationalistic bent and the overt hostility to anyone that asks questions (see some of those questions raised by others) suggests to me that the people alleging the crime are in turn being used by someone to push his "journalism" and to make a living. If these people were raped and not the victims of "misadventure", then I fully support their attempt to obtain justice. However, before people like me accept the allegations, there is going to have to be some actual fact presented. There are far too many claims of crimes made, only to see them turn out as twisted tales. If Mr. Drummond wants to help these people, he should stick to the facts and avoid the Fleet Street quality hype.

And now I'll wait for additional facts to be reported by the altruistic crusading Mr. Drummond.

Edited by geriatrickid, 2009-11-30 20:43:27.

[Insight]

Not directly related to the incident in question, but The Mail on Sunday ran what could best be described as a pretty trashy story about Tiger Woods' private life yesterday - and today Tiger Woods has been in the news venomously denying the allegations.

The only thing that separates this rag from a tabloid IMHO is its size.

[DP25]

Before even clicking on the link, reading the Clockwork Orange tabloid reference in the headline alone gave away that it was written by Andrew Drummond. One hundred percent class dude.

[brahmburgers]

Interesting comments about Ko Chang. I went there once, 23 years ago. It was a sleepy place with a few huts. Too bad how things change for the worse, same for many other places. Thought of going to visit there again, but now doubtful.

As for Drummond, ....why cast aspersions at the messenger?

Hope they catch and jail the culprits for a long time. Despicable crime. Nearly as despicable is Thai police asleep-at-the wheel attitude.

[sotsira]

Changnoi2, on 2009-11-30 15:34:41, said:

Koh Chang, my Friends is very much Lawless. I heard first hand of these similar stories from a Farang Barman that stumbled apon and witnessed an attack like this. He knew of these men carrying out these attacks before, terrorizing girls and couples climbing in though the roofs of thier huts. He told me many an awful story, and I quite believed him.

KOH CHANG is a very very dangerous island, please enjoy the rest of Thailand, do not go to Koh Chang.

Only 3 weeks ago an English couple i know were visiting me in Pattaya, they decided to go to KoChang for a first time visit and after spending a couple of days there they had there bungalow burgled and trashed losing there valuables.
Again the police went to the crime scene only to suggest that an outsider like a coach driver on his way out of the island could have done the crime.
I would also agree that Ko Chang is, as the above post suggests a lawless place.

[mauGR1]

Changnoi2, on 2009-11-30 15:34:41, said:

Koh Chang, my Friends is very much Lawless. I heard first hand of these similar stories from a Farang Barman that stumbled apon and witnessed an attack like this. He knew of these men carrying out these attacks before, terrorizing girls and couples climbing in though the roofs of thier huts. He told me many an awful story, and I quite believed him.

KOH CHANG is a very very dangerous island, please enjoy the rest of Thailand, do not go to Koh Chang.

I have to say something about Koh Chang,as i am living here.
IMHO this beautiful island is not more dangerous than other islands in Thailand.
I don't have any reason to disbelieve this appalling story,nor i want to say that K. Chang is a paradise on earth,but to say that K.Chang is dangerous while the rest of the world is safe,is pure BS.

[george]

I suggest you comment further on Andrew Drummond's blog directly:

http://www.andrew-drummond.com/2009/11/28/...ttack-thailand/
http://www.andrew-drummond.com/2009/11/28/...e-and-thailand/

Thread closed.

Thaivisa doesn't want to be involved anymore, and I have no time to moderate this thread.

Thanks
George

[Maestro]

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[Maestro]

Brit couple's Thai rape horror


Horror ... Koh Chang where rape ordeal was said to have taken place

By ANTHONY FRANCE
Crime Reporter

Published: 04 Dec 2009

A TERRIFIED Brit couple told today how they were drugged and gang-raped in Thailand as Scotland Yard launched its own probe.

The victims had their drinks spiked with a powerful drug used to relax condemned Death Row inmates after meeting three Frenchmen and an English woman in a bar.

Susan, 31, and Richard, 42, passed out within minutes of being lured back to a holiday bungalow in Koh Chang.

But company director Richard came to briefly to see his civil servant girlfriend being raped.

Richard, who was forced against a bungalow window, recalled: "I had no strength or ability to resist or fight.
...

Read more: http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/...l#ixzz0YoRU9kMg